How can I measure if air is flowing through the water meter

[Tropicalevo]

Our water supplier is struggling to provide water for everyone in the development where I live. (> 100 houses)

Many houses are buying water trucks yet the bills from the supplier show that usage is higher than normal.

I suspect that the main water pump is pushing air to the properties, when the main water tank level is low.

Is there a meter that I can install near the water meter that will tell me if there is air?

Disconnecting the feeder pipe would be a hit and miss affair.

[OneMoreFarang]

2 minutes ago, Tropicalevo said:

Our water supplier is struggling to provide water for everyone in the development where I live. (> 100 houses)

Many houses are buying water trucks yet the bills from the supplier show that usage is higher than normal.

I suspect that the main water pump is pushing air to the properties, when the main water tank level is low.

Is there a meter that I can install near the water meter that will tell me if there is air?

Disconnecting the feeder pipe would be a hit and miss affair.

How about a transparent pipe or looking glass or whatever that is called? 

[Liverpool Lou]

17 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

How about a transparent pipe or looking glass or whatever that is called? 

Is air visible now?!

[OneMoreFarang]

5 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Is air visible now?!

Bubbles are visible.

 

I have something like this in mind. If there is water mixed with air, then I guess you should see bubbles. 

 

 

[IvorBiggun2]

2 hours ago, Tropicalevo said:

I suspect that the main water pump is pushing air to the properties, when the main water tank level is low.

Is there a meter that I can install near the water meter that will tell me if there is air?

Can a water pump move air?

 

 

 

You cannot use a water pump to pump air. A water pump is designed to move fluid with a viscosity and density that is 1000 times greater than air. The water pump needs the lubrication and cooling of the water passing through it to keep it from overheating. Running a water pump dry will ruin it in short order.

[Tropicalevo]

49 minutes ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

Can a water pump move air?

 

The one that our supplier uses definitely can and has done so in the past.

We managed to prove it then by disconnecting the feeder pipe to the house and videoing the meter going round and with a hissing noise instead of water coming through the meter.

But that is a hit and miss affair if it does not do it all of the time.

I think that what happens maybe is that the supplier's pump is moving water to some houses, but those on the end of the lines are only getting air. Not water.

[VocalNeal]

Put a T in with a vertical riser and put an auto bleed valve at the top.

[xtrnuno41]

If the main pump sucks in air due to low level in tank, it will be noticeable in pump running.

Also when pump isnt right and has cavitation in it (creating "air" bubbles), should be noticeable. The pump will be pulsing

Depending on how pipe lines run, maybe displaced and in some areas going up, then air concentrate in the upper sections of pipeline.

Houses in lower sections of pipe line will not have, or less, problems, as air will travel up in pipeline.

Also with a pump running and transporting, there could be somewhere a break in pipeline or a gasket not right.

By ejecteur working air can be sucked in.

You already noticed air coming out by disconnecting feeder line to house and meter running like crazy.

That is correct, the meter is not designed for that, it is for water.

 

You like to know, then OMF is right, you could place a spyglass (transparent pipe) to see it.

You want to prevent it happening then VN is right. However the vertical pipe with auto bleed should be IN FRONT (inlet meter) of the meter.

You can also put the meter in a U construction of 50 cm(?), the air will go up in it and remains in system before meter.

However that can pile up all air in system, it has to get out somewhere to unload the system of air.

So combined would be the best.

Of course if you create those things, the main water supply has to be shut down, as you are working BEFORE meter.  

[Yellowtail]

Your existing meter will count any air as water. 

 

Does the water flow from the meter to your storage tank, and then you pump water from your tank to the house? If so, just put a standard meter after your pump and compare the two readings. 

 

That said, aside from getting angry, what are you going to do if you find they are over charging? 

 

Unless you're farming, it's hard to imagine your bill is such that it's worth getting worked up about, and once we get some decent rain it will stop anyway. 

[mrwebb8825]

You disconnect at the feed then, stick your face in. If you can't breath then there's no air.

[mran66]

If water level in your tank is low enough so that the foot valve is not properly under water, 100% sure you get air mixed in.

If you just want to know if the water pumped  to your house has air mixed in, disconnect the bum gun from the hose and put the hose into a bucket that has enough water to keep the hose under water, and open the valve so that water can flow to the bucket (keep end of the hose under water). If you don't see bubbles, not (at least much) air. If see bubbles,  has air mixed with water. 

 

You should also hear it by listening the pump, it gets noisy if air mixed in. I would expect to be able to hear it also e.g when toilet is filling, not quiet any more. 

[mran66]

On 5/7/2024 at 2:44 PM, IvorBiggun2 said:

Can a water pump move air?

 

You cannot use a water pump to pump air.

 

If a thai is in a position to get cash by selling air as water based on baht/cbm deal, certainly there is a solution to this.

 

if nothing else then a separate compressor! 

[Yellowtail]

21 minutes ago, mran66 said:

 

If a thai is in a position to get cash by selling air as water based on baht/cbm deal, certainly there is a solution to this.

 

if nothing else then a separate compressor! 

How does a Thai get cash by selling air as water when the state collects the money? 

 

If air is passing though the meter, nothing after the meter is going to change that. 

[ignis]

I check a while ago.. YES Air make the meter run

 

switched on the tap to fill the pond, nothing came out I left it on about 30 mins later still nothing so wondered if someone had turned the stop cock off so went out to see, the meter was flying round, yet no water so must have been air making the meter spin

 

The Pond and garden hose connects direct, not to house/tank pump  [turn the in line tap off to the house ] when using garden water so better pressure , so nothing was being used and no water  = paying for Air

 

 

 

[mran66]

3 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

How does a Thai get cash by selling air as water when the state collects the money? 

 

If air is passing though the meter, nothing after the meter is going to change that. 

 

I understood from the OP (maybe erroneously?) that water was being supplied by truck to cover for water shortage, and concern was air possibly being mixed to get bigger meter reading for the bill from that guy. Just like the tuned taxi fare meters running double speed.

 

After the meter sure nothing changes. 

[freeworld]

15 hours ago, ignis said:

I check a while ago.. YES Air make the meter run

 

switched on the tap to fill the pond, nothing came out I left it on about 30 mins later still nothing so wondered if someone had turned the stop cock off so went out to see, the meter was flying round, yet no water so must have been air making the meter spin

 

The Pond and garden hose connects direct, not to house/tank pump  [turn the in line tap off to the house ] when using garden water so better pressure , so nothing was being used and no water  = paying for Air

 

 

 

 

You need to find out why you don't have water in your pipeline upstream of your meter and then deal with that.

[ignis]

21 hours ago, freeworld said:

 

You need to find out why you don't have water in your pipeline upstream of your meter and then deal with that.

That was not the point, I understand why from the main road to my Village is 7 km, there was major work, large pipes put underground with compartments in, so new water pipes were put in,  so everyday for x amount of hours the water would go off this lasted for about a years.

 

The point was Air appears to make the water meter work.

[freeworld]

On 5/14/2024 at 7:17 AM, ignis said:

The point was Air appears to make the water meter work.

Of course it does.

 

For eg. A part of the conclusions in a a springer link document on this.

 

"Considering the pipe’s total volume of about 1.5 m, the result suggests that, neglecting leaks and other possible air outflows in similar conditions, about 40% of the air contained in the system could be billed by water meters connected to user connections"