Singapore Airlines Compensates Passengers After Turbulence Tragedy

[Georgealbert]

31 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

I don't know that the idea is that far out.  There have been several times that I thought I was strapped in, but the buckle didn't catch.  Having a little flashing light overhead warning me would have been helpful.  Also in cases where the seatbelt sign goes on...  People just aren't thinking, and a little warning light above their seat would remind them.

 

It would also reduce workload for the flight attendants who have to check everyone's crotch area before landing to make sure we're all strapped in.  They've gotta love that part...

 

Expensive?  I'm sure it is.  But worth evaluating.

 

So if I want to stop that silly buzzer, I just put the belt behind me.

 

What is it going to save the cabin crew? They still have to check, window blinds, tray tables, baggage stowed under seats, no baggage on window exit seats, babies/young kids are strapped in, overhead lockers are closed, arm rests are down and seats are upright.

[thaibeachlovers]

11 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

That was my first thought when I read that.  But changes in G forces did cause stuff to go flying around the cabin, even if gravity itself remained constant. 

 

It's a frame of reference thing...

 

When a plane drops suddenly, inertia makes everything not secured remain stationary while the cabin moves around it. That includes human beings not strapped in.

However, many people are stupid when it comes to things like safety belts and think they are immune to chaos- they ain't.

[richard_smith237]

45 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

I don't know that the idea is that far out.  There have been several times that I thought I was strapped in, but the buckle didn't catch.  Having a little flashing light overhead warning me would have been helpful.  Also in cases where the seatbelt sign goes on...  People just aren't thinking, and a little warning light above their seat would remind them.

 

It would also reduce workload for the flight attendants who have to check everyone's crotch area before landing to make sure we're all strapped in.  They've gotta love that part...

 

Expensive?  I'm sure it is.  But worth evaluating.

 

 

Valid point....     it can't be that hard to have a light that shines' when the seatbelt is not attached... 

But, it does involve the re-design of all cabins - perhaps that's an easy addition on 'new-Aircraft'...  But, the industry is Global, and thus requires international agreements. 

 

Perhaps the seriousness of this incident will trigger such agreements. 

[richard_smith237]

5 minutes ago, Georgealbert said:

So if I want to stop that silly buzzer, I just put the belt behind me.

 

What is it going to save the cabin crew? They still have to check, window blinds, tray tables, baggage stowed under seats, no baggage on window exit seats, babies/young kids are strapped in, overhead lockers are closed, arm rests are down and seats are upright.

 

Sure... and people do and will continue to do that - thats their own issue / fault. 

 

My In laws do that in their car, even though when in my car they put their belt on without asking.

 

Some will break laws, think regulations don't apply to them etc... we can't apply perfect legislation for all..  BUT... IF people are stupid enough not to wear a seatbelt when 'sat' thats their own issue. 

 

-----

 

What about the staff...   Thats a risk they take when flying... not much more can be done about that.

 

What about the people sat in the business air-bar (if there was one) - thats their own risk.

 

What about people waking to the bathroom or in the bathroom - thats a difficult one, as we can't have our seatbelt attached all the time....  we also can't 'hold it'... thus...    do we just have to accept the risk ? - I think thats about all that can be done.

 

It may be argued that compensation is 'chump change' - but I'm of a position that there was no negligence, so no compensation is warranted. 

 

As far as crew are concerned - the Airline should have insurance for such circumstances - to compensate crew, pay disability benefits etc.

 

[Georgealbert]

15 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

You are gaslighting....    everyone knows keeping your seatbelt fastened while seated and at all times its practical to do do so, i.e. when not doing to the toilet etc...   is sensible. 

 

If people want to ignore recommendations and use the bar in business class etc...  thats their risk. 

Should they be 'compensated' for having a drink in business class when the risk of entering 'clear air turbulence' is something we are all aware of ? (most of us).

 

DVT can be mitigated with flight socks, inflight leg exercises and pre-flight medication (i.e. Heparin - for those in high risk groups)...

 

Pilots cannot 'base use any of their judgement' for CAT - its something that is unforeseeable and unexpected, it doesnt come up on a radar...

 

 

It seems you are blaming the airline for the passengers not fastening their seatbelt - this is 'almost' in alignment for blaming the taxi company for your injuries in an accident when you are not wearing your seatbelt and another car hit the taxi you are travelling in.

 

 

 

 

I never said it was not a good to keep the belt on, I previously did about 150 flights a year and rarely did not use my seat belt.

 

My point, is the reality that the airlines, ICAO and IATA are never going to make seat belts compulsory at all times, just look at the new Singapore Airlines turbulence guidelines for crews, issued after this incident.

 

https://time.com/6981948/singapore-airlines-seatbelt-policy-turbulence/
 

At no time I have tried blamed the airline, I have no idea where you got that from. Maybe look at the full initial thread, and you may understand.

 

Bye and have a good day, also a first being called a gaslighter. 55555

[hotchilli]

8 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

IMO too many people ignore the sensible precaution of fastening their seat belt when sitting. I think passengers should only get compensation if wearing a seat belt, or when walking when the "Fasten seat belt" sign is not on. People should use their brain and take responsibility for themselves.

Turbulence is an expected part of flying, but many leave their common sense in the departure lounge, IMO.

 

If passengers bring on hand carry that exceeds the weight limit and that injures someone else, IMO they should be prosecuted.

The accident occurred at high altitude while the wearing of seat belts is not necessary...

people are allowed freedom to move around to use the bathrooms and stretch out their legs.

The weather forecast was good with no turbulence as in rain or clouds.

This was a totally unforeseen and undetectable air pocket where the aircraft suddenly dropped.

No-one wants to wear a seat-belts for the entire flight from departure to arrival.

 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Georgealbert said:

So if I want to stop that silly buzzer, I just put the belt behind me.

 

What is it going to save the cabin crew? They still have to check, window blinds, tray tables, baggage stowed under seats, no baggage on window exit seats, babies/young kids are strapped in, overhead lockers are closed, arm rests are down and seats are upright.

 

I don't think they had time to do all that pre-landing stuff just after breakfast service on the day, George. No warning and nobody's fault, really.

 

There was a major seasonal change in weather conditions over southern Myanmar that morning. Unfortunate timimg.   

[nauseus]

18 minutes ago, hotchilli said:

The accident occurred at high altitude while the wearing of seat belts is not necessary...

people are allowed freedom to move around to use the bathrooms and stretch out their legs.

The weather forecast was good with no turbulence as in rain or clouds.

This was a totally unforeseen and undetectable air pocket where the aircraft suddenly dropped.

No-one wants to wear a seat-belts for the entire flight from departure to arrival.

 

 

Not necessary? Funny if not so serious. What weather forecast? 

 

Nobody wants a heart attack or a fractured skull, either. 

[hotchilli]

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

Not necessary? Funny if not so serious. What weather forecast? 

As part of every flight the Captain and first officer make a detailed flight plan which includes take off conditions, flight conditions en-route and landing conditions at the destination... ie a weather forecast.

The aircraft also has on-board radar which informs them of weather conditions ahead. ie possible turbulence due to visible weather patterns.

Unfortunately air pockets are undetectable.

 

[nauseus]

4 minutes ago, hotchilli said:

As part of every flight the Captain and first officer make a detailed flight plan which includes take off conditions, flight conditions en-route and landing conditions at the destination... ie a weather forecast.

The aircraft also has on-board radar which informs them of weather conditions ahead. ie possible turbulence due to visible weather patterns.

Unfortunately air pockets are undetectable.

 

 

Which means that both weather reports and weather radar are not 100% reliable. 

[Georgealbert]

12 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

I don't think they had time to do all that pre-landing stuff just after breakfast service on the day, George. No warning and nobody's fault, really.

 

There was a major seasonal change in weather conditions over southern Myanmar that morning. Unfortunate timimg.   

Yes agree, this incident, SQ321 occurred at cruising altitude, meal being served, before it even started any decent for Singapore, and was a short violent and an unexpected rare occurrence..

 

My post was in reply to a suggestion that aircraft have a buzzer, like cars when seat belts are not used, to ensure compulsory use, see below, what I replied to.

 

“I don't know that the idea is that far out.  There have been several times that I thought I was strapped in, but the buckle didn't catch.  Having a little flashing light overhead warning me would have been helpful.  Also in cases where the seatbelt sign goes on...  People just aren't thinking, and a little warning light above their seat would remind them.

 

It would also reduce workload for the flight attendants who have to check everyone's crotch area before landing to make sure we're all strapped in.  They've gotta love that part...

 

Expensive?  I'm sure it is.  But worth evaluating.”

[hotchilli]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

 

Which means that both weather reports and weather radar are not 100% reliable. 

As I have tried to make it clear to you so that you understand the weather reports and radar are accurate..

AIR POCKETS ARE UNDETECTABLE...

[nauseus]

16 minutes ago, hotchilli said:

As I have tried to make it clear to you so that you understand the weather reports and radar are accurate..

AIR POCKETS ARE UNDETECTABLE...

 

I think that you just proved my point.

 

AND THERE'S NO NEED TO EFFING SHOUT.

[hotchilli]

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

I think that you just proved my point.

 

AND THERE'S NO NEED TO EFFING SHOUT.

No need to swear either...

[impulse]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

However, many people are stupid when it comes to things like safety belts and think they are immune to chaos- they ain't.

 

And it's no concern of mine, if they're the ones that suffer the consequences.  But in a turbulence incident, innocent people who did everything right are often among those who get hurt by flying bodies. Seat belt warnings (lights, not buzzers) wouldn't just protect idiots from themselves.  They'd protect everyone from the idiots.

 

[nauseus]

19 minutes ago, Georgealbert said:

Yes agree, this incident, SQ321 occurred at cruising altitude, meal being served, before it even started any decent for Singapore, and was a short violent and an unexpected rare occurrence..

 

My post was in reply to a suggestion that aircraft have a buzzer, like cars when seat belts are not used, to ensure compulsory use, see below, what I replied to.

 

“I don't know that the idea is that far out.  There have been several times that I thought I was strapped in, but the buckle didn't catch.  Having a little flashing light overhead warning me would have been helpful.  Also in cases where the seatbelt sign goes on...  People just aren't thinking, and a little warning light above their seat would remind them.

 

It would also reduce workload for the flight attendants who have to check everyone's crotch area before landing to make sure we're all strapped in.  They've gotta love that part...

 

Expensive?  I'm sure it is.  But worth evaluating.”

 

Yes, especially if this gets expensive. from a legal claim aspect.

 

Against the cost of these planes I'm sure that there must be an affordable design.

[nauseus]

2 minutes ago, hotchilli said:

No need to swear either...

 

I TOOK GREAT CARE NOT TO!

[stoner]

5 hours ago, Georgealbert said:

5555 thanks for the laugh. 
 

So you suggest seats have a beeper to alert the cabin crew every time someone releases their belt. What next, maybe  air bags fitted to the back of seats, as cars and planes are so similar.

 

Maybe airlines could give passengers a token for going to the toilet, the number of tokens based on the length of flight, or maybe give cabin crew the authority to issue on the spot fines, if a passenger releases the seat belt.

 

Given you well thought out and balanced approach, maybe you should email IATA (International Air Transport Association) or ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organisation) as I sure their qualified and experienced, aviation specialists, would then back mandatory wearing of seat belts at all times, and admit they would never had considered it without your guidance.

 

No need for personal insults just because you disagree. 

 

Who said cars and planes are similar. My comparison was seat belts. Keep laughing ar the idea they wouldn't of helped almost every person on that flight. 

[Georgealbert]

13 minutes ago, stoner said:

 

No need for personal insults just because you disagree. 

 

Who said cars and planes are similar. My comparison was seat belts. Keep laughing ar the idea they wouldn't of helped almost every person on that flight. 

55555 You think that was a personal insult, really, you are that thin skinned?

 

Lets wait and see what the investigation report, from the aviation experts, recommends, as there was not safety recommends in the preliminary report.

 

My bet is that TSIB, CAAS NTSB, FAA, CAAT, EASA, CAA, ICAO, IATA, will all support the idea that airlines continue to recommend seat belts are worn at all times, but will not attempt to force any compulsory, at all times use, and there will no recommendations for beepers, buzzers , beepers or additional lights. There will be guidelines for airlines to update SOPs and procedures for how they deal and approach turbulence at an operational level, and that will be left for each airline to adopt as suitable.

 

Have a good day, I am out of this.

[hotchilli]

10 minutes ago, Georgealbert said:

There will be guidelines for airlines to update SOPs and procedures for how they deal and approach turbulence at an operational level, and that will be left for each airline to adopt as suitable.

There are SOP's in place already to to deal with approaching bad weather, certain cloud formations etc, which is detected as bad weather which may incur turbulence.... the Captain will illuminate the wear seat belt  signs, and inform the cabin crew of turbulent weather so that they can stow away loose items, trolleys and inform passengers to obey the signs.

 

How does one approach an air pocket which is invisible to the human eye and undetectable by ground and aircraft radar??

Which is what happened during this flight.

 

[Georgealbert]

7 minutes ago, hotchilli said:

There are SOP's in place already to to deal with approaching bad weather, certain cloud formations etc, which is detected as bad weather which may incur turbulence.... the Captain will illuminate the wear seat belt  signs, and inform the cabin crew of turbulent weather so that they can stow away loose items, trolleys and inform passengers to obey the signs.

 

How does one approach an air pocket which is invisible to the human eye and undetectable by ground and aircraft radar??

Which is what happened during this flight.

 

Not disagreeing with anything you say.

 

The improvements could be along the lines of something like the  IATA (The International Air Transport Association) data exchange platform called ‘Turbulence Aware’ which is designed to provide airlines with better information for flights. So far only a few airlines are part of this system.

 

“Turbulence Aware is designed to receive all the existing airline data from ground servers, performs quality control, deidentifies data, and provides the data back to airlines via a ground-to-ground system-to-system connection and will map real-time turbulence reports for operational flights decision-making.

 

The system uses a energy/eddy-dissipation rate (EDR) which is a calculated estimate of the atmosphere’s turbulent state. It is not a measure of the response of an individual aircraft. But is the official ICAO & WMO metric for measuring turbulence intensity

 

Detailed reports for data points – Including time, altitude, aircraft position, mean and peak EDR values as well as wind and temperature data, will help to increase situational awareness to pilots”

 

https://www.iata.org/en/services/statistics/safety-data/turbulence-platform/

 

The platform was first started in 2018, but since the SQ321 event, more airlines have signed up and many more are interested in joining and using the data collection/analysis system. IATA hope that by the end of this year they will have collected turbulence reports from 150 million flights

 

Yes it will not prevent all CAT (clear air turbulence) events, but will be a step towards improving passenger/aircraft safety.

 

[Bangkok Barry]

12 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

IMO too many people ignore the sensible precaution of fastening their seat belt when sitting. I think passengers should only get compensation if wearing a seat belt, or when walking when the "Fasten seat belt" sign is not on. People should use their brain and take responsibility for themselves.

 

I agree. Anyone who doesn't fasten their seatbelt while seated, as directed to by a sign on the back of the seat in front of them, is either an idiot or naive. The rule is there for a very good reason and should not be 'do it if you want, but we don't care if you don't and if you get injured we'll reward you with compensation'.

 

[bangkok19]

people want to ignore recommendations and use the bar in business class etc...  thats their risk. 

Should they be 'compensated' for having a drink in business class when the risk of entering 'clear air turbulence' is something we are all aware of ? (most of us).

F.Y.I. - there ARE seatbelts on the 'soft' seats in the Bar area of Business Class. You don't HAVE TO sit in the stools!

[Emdog]

"Trust in God but tie your camel" -Sufi saying

Yes, trust the pilots and equipment which is effective vast majority of the time. But as they say "Sh*t happens".

I take those long trans Pacific flights. I have belt on at all times when in my seat, including when I try to sleep. The belt does not have to be tight to protect you.  might have a foot or so of slack while I try some sort of side sleep contortion. Loose enough for comfort, tight enough to keep me from flying into ceiling etc if one of those 1% incidents happens.