Don’t kill the golden goose! Tax reforms may drive away expats

[ukrules]

Just now, chiang mai said:

You are not typical or average of the Western expat community.....you're special. 🙂

 

No, there are many with much larger incomes than me and it's all offshore. I'm a minnow in comparison

Think of average man selling his house which he purchased 30 years ago with plans on retiring to Thailand, comes over, checks it out by renting a place for a couple of years, he's now resident - sell his house and boom - his tax liability back home is ZERO, but over in Thailand it's 35%.

 

 

[RichardColeman]

This has no realistic chance of happening in my opinion. They want Chinese money, do you really think the Chinese will be wanting to pay an extra 15-25% on any money (especially savings already taxed) moving between the countries and being taxed twice ? You really think the Chinese will be ok about paying that % more on a house ? Will Thailand really be going after money held in China ? My opinion this will be changed en masse simply as it is unworkable and will destroy the economy - again. 

 

Asking foreigners to get a tax return in, and offer a discount on % tax if you have paid in your own country already, will not be workable simply as ALL countries have different tax return dates in their own countries and will not give you a tax return for thailand to suit Thailand's tax return date.

 

That said, if this happens then Thailand will be decimated for expats, but I expect this is already being discussed between agents and immigration - i cannot see the agent/immigration cash cow not finding a way round it, it is simply too valuable to too many

 

 

[BritManToo]

4 minutes ago, ukrules said:

 

No, there are many with much larger incomes than me and it's all offshore. I'm a minnow in comparison

Think of average man selling his house which he purchased 30 years ago with plans on retiring to Thailand, comes over, checks it out by renting a place for a couple of years, he's now resident - sell his house and boom - his tax liability back home is ZERO, but over in Thailand it's 35%.

 

 

Alternatively he could sell his house then move to Thailand with all his money after July and pay no Thai tax as he wasn't resident that year. Tax is only a risk for guys already living in Thailand .hand to mouth, and even then only a small risk as I don't believe it will ever happen.

Edited September 11 by BritManToo

[Presnock]

2 hours ago, zakalwe said:

The golden goose is the stupid tourist, not the savvy expat.

That analogy is an oxymoron right?

[chiang mai]

6 minutes ago, ukrules said:

 

No, there are many with much larger incomes than me and it's all offshore. I'm a minnow in comparison

Think of average man selling his house which he purchased 30 years ago with plans on retiring to Thailand, comes over, checks it out by renting a place for a couple of years, he's now resident - sell his house and boom - his tax liability back home is ZERO, but over in Thailand it's 35%.

 

As a percentage of total Western expats here, how many people are going to make several hundreds of thousands Pound profit and retire to Thailand, in the majority it's doesn't attract that level of wealthy person. Anyway, I'm pretty certain we'll find that house sale proceeds will not be taxed at 35% and that exceptions or other rules will apply. 

 

EDIT TO ADD: or, as another as said, remit those funds whilst not tax resident and life is sweet.

Edited September 11 by chiang mai

[topt]

32 minutes ago, Andycoops said:

How the hell are they going to find out what your worldwide income is?

 

As a expat here.

 

If you have multiple bank accounts in multiple countries, like some people I know and you tell them you have 1 account in 1 country.

 

They have no way of knowing anything different.

 

Totally absurd.

 

15 minutes ago, StevieAus said:

You are correct most countries have legislation preventing the disclosure of information. 

I rightly have to go through a rigorous check list if I ring my pension fund in Australia.

I rang my Aus bank recently and was on speaker they heard my wife and said she had to leave the room while they spoke to me. 

That's why the income method for the retirement extension stopped most countries including  Australia wouldn't disclose the information for  Thai Immigration

Suggest you guys read up on CRS - Common reporting Standards

Here is a link from a bank to start you off

https://www.crs.hsbc.com/en/frequently-asked-questions

[Ironmike]

I know that a lot of people will disagree with this but I don't give a crap,,, Thailand needs to get rid of these stupid old gready men in charge throw Taksin and his family back out of the country and elect a new government that is for their people not themselves,, it needs new blood new ideas and a new way forward,, yeah never going to happen. 

[BE88]

 

I expect the Thaksin government to fall in a few months

[Artisi]

40 minutes ago, Badrabbit said:

What an idiotic comment from I dare say an idiot.

The contribution expats make to the economy of Thailand would amount to sweet bugger-all. 

[Thingamabob]

The article seems to be 9 months old. Since then there has been a change of govt. It remains to be seen if this proposed legislation is ever approved.  

[MalcolmB]

1 hour ago, NemoH said:

The problem is that the Thai government have never cherished or respected this golden goose.

Probably because we marry the local prostitutes. Drunken fights over the prostitutes is not a good look either.
 

We see it as saving the woman, her children and extended poverty, but most Thais see us as stooges. 

 

I think it is fair to say that the prostitutes and their families cherish us, probably don’t respect us, but to expect the general population to respect us is probably asking a bit much.

 

Back home in the UK we are rioting over the unwanted immigrants and it is also a decisive issue in the USA with their southern border and other parts of Europe also. 
 

If we are living here full time I don’t think it is too much to contribute and pay a bit of tax. They do not have high tax rates anyway. Same as we would expect immigrants to contribute back in the UK instead of just asking for handouts.

[topt]

7 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Anyway, I'm pretty certain we'll find that house sale proceeds will not be taxed at 35% and that exceptions or other rules will apply. 

But currently under Thai RD rules is this not where we are - that it gets taxed at whatever marginal rate when remitted as income (if realised after 31/12/2023)?

What "other rules" are likely to be applied?

[topt]

2 minutes ago, MalcolmB said:

If we are living here full time I don’t think it is too much to contribute and pay a bit of tax.

The article is about world wide tax not just on what is remitted - so potentially more than a bit....

[Expat68]

I mentioned the tax issue to my girlfriend the other day. Her response was I don't think foreigners will stand for that, she also asked if we will get free healthcare and I said no, she can't believe it

[Derek B]

40 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Those people living in tourist ghettos such as Pattaya probably don't see that because they think they are in the majority, elsewhere the picture is very different.

Elsewhere the picture is very different.

It is not about GDP it is about the 1,000s of expats living locally.

There can be no income tax based on residentcy without representation & benefits.

In the rural areas the 65K-150K a month typically spent locally will be lost if expats leave - it will hurt the locals personally big time.

 

[jippytum]

When i resided here in the 80's and you had stayed more than 180days to leave you had to have a tax exempt certificate. If you proved to the revenue dept your income came from outside you got the certificate free othewise it was  i think about 2500 baht  fee for the certificate to leave the country. 

   Anun Pryachum  the best PM Thsiland ever had cancelled it when he became PM. 

So this tax idea for foreigners is not good but it's not new. 

 

[mancub]

1 hour ago, Johno57 said:

Obviously this has not been thought about in depth, and their was the idea of charging the tourist a small amount to enter the country which was dismissed as it might affect tourism, and now this idea will really hurt the common thai business as NO retired person will accept a double tax and make thailand home..

I believe they have only "shelved" this arrival/tourist  tax because they found it too difficult to implement, like many other of their grand schemes. 

[hotchilli]

2 hours ago, FridgeMagnet1 said:

Ha ha, good lord. Describing the sad old soaks who retire to Thailand as the “Golden Goose”

Who will b pleading for tourists and expats when they find better places to live or visit.

 

[hotchilli]

1 hour ago, Andycoops said:

If you have multiple bank accounts in multiple countries, like some people I know and you tell them you have 1 account in 1 country.

One account in Thailand, that's it.

If they insist on more it's bye bye Thailand

[mikeymike100]

1 hour ago, hotchilli said:

Ridiculous policy

Absolutely, how on Earth will they, Thailand, find out how much money you have in another country, especially if you don't move it to Thailand?

[Gknrd]

Personally I want consistancy in retirement.

who in there right mind would retire from the US to Thailand now?  

[mfd101]

39 minutes ago, topt said:

Suggest you guys read up on CRS - Common reporting Standards

Here is a link from a bank to start you off

https://www.crs.hsbc.com/en/frequently-asked-questions

Yes, everyone needs to read this. No point in bleating. The Thai government having signed up - along with over 100 other governments - it now needs to at least go thru the motions ...

[NedR69]

Less than a month and I'm out.  F this crap and all the snowflakes. If you leave too, start thinking now how to move your money OUT of a Thai bank.  Wise doesn't do that.  Dee money sucks, and many are still waiting for their transfer to process several weeks after initiating the transfer.  WU fee is ok, but their rate sucks.  Swift transfer may be the best option.  Plan now, if you have 800k or more to move out.

 

It's not just the new tax law, but it will be the last nail in the coffin and I'm not waiting around to find out. Even if it doesn't go thru, I've had it here to the point of deciding to go. 

 

Insanity...doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

 

I see better options that have clean air, safer to drive/travel/live, and equally affordable.

 

Less than a month, and counting!

 

[Randy99]

If they enact this tax, I'm gone!

[Henryford]

They should look what is happening in China. They have driven all the expats and foreign companies out and Beijing and Shanghai are like a tomb.

[tomazbodner]

But honestly, folks... before Thaksin came to power, it was free for all. Foreigners could just get unlimited extensions of stay by getting to the border and back every month, work without work permits which nobody bothered to check, companies got away with pretty much anything.

 

He put a stop to that, and started making it difficult for the foreigners who weren't following the laws. Did anyone expect that his return would mark a relaxation of rules and making it easier for foreigners to live here?

 

Just think of the name of his first party... it was Thai rak Thai, not Thai rak Farang... Just like other politicians - he's focusing on largest group of people who cast their votes at the local elections. And that's Thai rural folks, not expats, many of whom look down on local population, for evidence of which you need to go no further than this very forum.

[loong]

1 hour ago, nickmondo said:

should listen to the lawyer that stated this.  he knows his stuff

not in a million years will Thailand be able to tax our worldwide income.

its just crap, and we should take no notice.

its just designed to create debate and give us ex pats something more to moan about

I am quite sure that they didn't dream this up just to give us expats something to debate and moan about!
They just see it as easy pickings. It doesn't occur to them that wealthier expats may just leave and retire elsewhere.

Most of us already pay more tax than most Thais by VAT etc.

 

Many say that what expats contribute is negligible when compared to the bigger picture and it may be, but it is not negligible for the 1000's of families that we support and the knock-on effect.

[chiang mai]

32 minutes ago, Derek B said:

Elsewhere the picture is very different.

It is not about GDP it is about the 1,000s of expats living locally.

There can be no income tax based on residentcy without representation & benefits.

In the rural areas the 65K-150K a month typically spent locally will be lost if expats leave - it will hurt the locals personally big time.

 

That's nonsense, no taxation without representation refers to one country being governed and taxed by another, that is not the case here. Everyone pays tax where ever they live and work, Thailand is no different. And there's no reason to expect benefits in Thailand which are driven by the Social Security system, to which expats don't pay (except those with work permits).

 

A country's GDP is the sum of all money spent or earned so yes, that 65k - 150k a month spent locally is a part of GDP, of which foreigner contributions are minimal.

[koolkarl]

The CRS agreement is the killer of the goose.  Thailand has signed this with at least 144 countries. If you had a bank account in England, and you are a tax resident in Thailand, stay here more than 180 days a year, and your British bank has your address here then that bank will automatically report each year, how much you have in that Brit bank but also its annual income.  If you lie to the Brit bank you could face criminal prosecution from the Brit gov. CRS was started by that snake Obama.  This goose is also departing.

[Sig]

I don't believe there are many wealthy individuals who would care to have residency in Thailand. There are so many better alternatives. Of course, "wealthy" can be defined different ways and granted my hometown area is an expensive area, so my idea may be a bit more than some, but to me, if you don't have AT LEAST 4-5 million USD (approx. 170 million THB) in net worth and somewhere around 600-800k USD (20-27 million THB) per year income, then I don't think you qualify, as I don't. Back home, I have a good number of friends and family who do (the median house costing between 2 to 3 million there, it's no surprise that I know a lot of such people), and they would never dream of residency in Thailand! They'd laugh.

So, I don't know how much of a "golden goose" foreigner's income is.... Of course, the foreigners in Thailand who aren't necessarily wealthy, but have plenty enough, add up to a fair amount, so I suppose arguments could be made re this tax policy change dream of theirs. But I don't think it's as significant as some make it out to be. But, the bad feelings and bad looks would affect things with keeping people away and driving some out.

Banks/governments around the world have gotten more and more restrictive and share more information than ever before. The wealthy are able to create structures to protect their wealth and some who were smart enough, have been able to do some of that through cryptocurrency, although that is getting more difficult these days as governments put in place more and more restrictions and dish out more threats to crypto exchanges. It's even difficult to buy gold without AML laws and KYC regulations screwing with you these days, although a lot easier in some countries than others... but then transporting it... lol
Keeping one's wealth to oneself is getting more and more difficult.