Expat Taxation - Does anyone really know what's going on?

[wozzlegummich]

Why won't any of the "EXPERTS" on YouTube, Forums and Social Media tell us expat Farangs what's going on with bringing our pensions or superannuation into Thailand from a country with a reciprocal tax arrangement?

It can't be that hard can it? Or do they just want an appointment fee? (Queue "everyone has a different situation" answer.........)

[KhunLA]

Yes

[BKKKevin]

No… 

[Ralf001]

5 minutes ago, wozzlegummich said:

Why won't any of the "EXPERTS" on YouTube, Forums and Social Media tell us expat Farangs what's going on with bringing our pensions or superannuation into Thailand from a country with a reciprocal tax arrangement?

It can't be that hard can it? Or do they just want an appointment fee? (Queue "everyone has a different situation" answer.........)

 

there are numerous threads on these taxes.... did none of them answer your question ?

[Celsius]

Nothing.

 

They let people in on interlol wanted list and you think they will be able to tax you?

 

The easiest thing would be able to tax all the Chinese, Taiwanese, HK landlords renting out their real estate, but they can not even do that.

[chiang mai]

Simply because the TRD has not said exactly how they will handle DTA rules from every country, for every type of income, until they tell us, nobody can tell you. Suggest you wait until November (ish) when new tax forms and instructions are supposed to be released.

[Ralf001]

3 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Simply because the TRD has not said exactly how they will handle DTA rules from every country, for every type of income, until they tell us, nobody can tell you. Suggest you wait until November (ish) when new tax forms and instructions are supposed to be released.

 

He posted this on Tuesday.... seemingly "in the know" !

[Lacessit]

Nobody really knows:

 

(a) How Double Tax Agreements will be observed

 

(b) Whether pensioners will need to submit a tax return, or simply have a tax number.

 

(c) If a visa extension is contingent on having a tax number, and a tax return.

 

It's a bit early to worry about rules the TRD has not even finalized yet.

[retarius]

The TRD will handle taxes covered by DTAs under the rules of the DTAs from each individual country which are likely not to be the same from each country. 

 

The Thai's 'new' proposals have not been elucidated in enough depth for anyone to know exactly what will happen to them individually. 

 

The only safe way to avoid extra taxes is to be a non resident for tax purposes i.e. less than 180 days a year (179 max). I have chosen this route and am implementing it in 2024 so that I don't have to file a tax return for 2023. Once you file a tax return you are in the TRD system, such as it is, and will be open too questions from the TRD for ever more. I'm not going to risk it, but the costs of living outside Thailand if you don't have a second home could overwhelm any tax savings you might make. 

 

When the rules are crystal clear I will have tax accountants here calculate how much I will owe here, if anything by staying year round. But rules can always change and there is nothing to stop a hard-up government spending the people's money like crazy on monumentally stupid schemes like the digital wallet and land bridge, to increase tax rates in the future. 

[Presnock]

Folk opine about what they read somewhere or hear from someone and then get all upset because it isn't clear to that reader.  As mentioned numerous times on this forum (and others) nothing we write about the coming tax scheme is definite in anyone's mind unless they had a dream.  By now, everyone has had an opportunity to check out the particular DTA between Thailand their country of residence or wherever they receive any income.  Just by reading the policy statements the new PM and some of her lower ministers, one can opine by their language but it seems to me that they are not being really specific on details.  This also should show us that they are obviously not in total agreement on all the plans since many that affect the expats also will affect some of the more wealthy Thais who I am sure will be expressing their disagreement with some of the "new" tax rules.  We all must wait for the final words - even the "casino bill" one rep said it will not be done until 2025 where it will have to go to the parliament for 3 readings so any new tax scheme will most likely not be totally clear until sometime next year and who knows when it might start or if expats well be affected or not.  Maybe some clarification will come out with the new tax forms reporedly coming out in Nov-Dec.  Even the Revenue local offices don't seem to be getting any more info than we are.   Anyway hope all the expats come out will very few if any problems with the new tax policies.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, wozzlegummich said:

Why won't any of the "EXPERTS" on YouTube, Forums and Social Media tell us expat Farangs what's going on with bringing our pensions or superannuation into Thailand from a country with a reciprocal tax arrangement?

Because there are so many different sources of income being remitted, different tax rules in home countries, different allowances available in Thailand, different dependents along with over 60 DTAs that may be applicable, that there is almost a different set of rules for each person 

 

1 hour ago, wozzlegummich said:

It can't be that hard can it?

Really!

 

1 hour ago, wozzlegummich said:

Queue "everyone has a different situation" answer.

Because it is true

 

add all the income sources, multiply by all the countries with DTSs, multiply by all the various Thai allowances, multiply by all the different domestic situations and the possible permutations are in the hundreds of thousands if not millions.

 

So almost everyone has a different answer.

You either do it all yourself or if you don’t want to then you can pay an expert , not bother and be liable to penalties if audited or totally OK or paying more tax than the minimum you are liable to.

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, retarius said:

The TRD will handle taxes covered by DTAs under the rules of the DTAs from each individual country which are likely not to be the same from each country. 

True

1 hour ago, retarius said:

The Thai's 'new' proposals have not been elucidated in enough depth for anyone to know exactly what will happen to them individually. 

I disagree see P161 modified by P162.

 

1 hour ago, retarius said:

The only safe way to avoid extra taxes is to be a non resident for tax purposes

That may work, but isn’t the only safe way and being not tax resident does not mean that you are exempt from paying tax (it should but it doesn’t because This Is Thailand)

1 hour ago, retarius said:

Once you file a tax return you are in the TRD system, such as it is, and will be open too questions from the TRD for ever more.

If tax resident you are already in the system however, if the TRD will ever bother is completely different.

those who file are more likely to be questioned, but more likely is still not very likely.

 

Just hope that the TRD never gets the budget to multiply is staff and computer resources by large factors 

Edited September 15 by sometimewoodworker

[bkk6060]

The problem is from what I have seen these ¨experts¨ are mostly saying/interpreting differently.

ATM taxable?

Credit card taxable?

Pensions

income

Capital gains

 

Go on and on just watch You Tube there are many different answers by these supposed experts.

A recent example was the American tax consultant interviewed by the Thaiger when asked about ATM or Credit card.  He answered it won´t be taxed, just don´t use it too much.  ?? What the heck does that mean?  Is there some limit? What is too much?

So, if people want to pay them go ahead.  It seems quite expensive at this point in fact the cost to do the tax may be more then the actual tax you have to pay in some cases.

Personally, after reviewing the current tax forms (I know they are supposed to change them)  does not seem that difficult to me.  We will see.  Have your documents, follow the directions, fill in the blanks it will not be rocket science I bet.  But, everyone is different on their aptitude.

Edited September 15 by bkk6060

[mokwit]

2 hours ago, wozzlegummich said:

Why won't any of the "EXPERTS" on YouTube, Forums and Social Media tell us expat Farangs what's going on with bringing our pensions or superannuation into Thailand from a country with a reciprocal tax arrangement?

It can't be that hard can it? Or do they just want an appointment fee? (Queue "everyone has a different situation" answer.........)

This is Thailand. You are expected to just "know".

[Jingthing]

What gets me is that credible people are correctly saying that the tax situation will be an individual thing and it will be impossible to announce full conclusions that will be correct for everyone's specific financial situation. 

Then they say to pay for personal advice.

But the final rules are not even set and we have no understanding of how any of this will actually be enforced, or not once they are set. 

So let's say you pay for personal advice now.

It's my impression that given how ambiguous this all still is, that if you paid for such personalized advice from five given "experts" now that you would most likely get five different "expert" opinions.

I'm sure this is a going to be a bonanza for such "experts" but at least at this stage, this is a completely ridiculous situation.

I will be willing to pay for such advice from a well referred "expert" at a later time when the odds are higher that they actually know how things actually are going to be.

Now seems wildly premature.

I reckon I will probably end up paying more for advice than tax though which is kind of absurd.

RANT OVER.

Edited September 15 by Jingthing

[norbra]

Step 1.My Australian aged pension is assessable income ,verified by Australian Tax Office.

 

Step 2, visit BKK revenue department to apply for a TIN.

My application was rejected as I didn't meet required criteria :

"Having income from employment in Thailand"

My experience for what it's worth

There are many levels of criteria for TIN applications

Edited September 15 by norbra

[KhunHeineken]

41 minutes ago, norbra said:

Step 2, visit BKK revenue department to apply for a TIN.

My application was rejected as I didn't meet required criteria

Apply again next week and you will probably get one.  TIT.   

[JeffersLos]

Will it be required for annual extensions based on family or retirement? Will we need to give the IO our Thai tax slip to get these annual extensions? 

[norbra]

3 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Apply again next week and you will probably get one.  TIT.   

Maybe you would be interested to learn that criteria also excludes students and holders of  "retirement visas"as they are prohibited from working in Thailand 

[KhunHeineken]

It will be interesting to be updated by members who stayed their 180 days in 2024, and have their extensions due in January 2025.  For those that do, I certainly wouldn't be leaving it to the last minute. 

 

I would not be surprised if different immigration offices around the country require different documents. 

 

If not at immigration, enforcement could be at the boarders. 

 

No one knows how this will play out in 2025.  I expect there to be chaos, but in the end, the Thai's will turn a baht out of it, one way, or another, even if it's just 500 baht for a certificate of clearance, or some other document. 

 

Considering money is involved, I just can't see the Thai's walking away from it. 

[KhunHeineken]

4 minutes ago, norbra said:

Maybe you would be interested to learn that criteria also excludes students and holders of  "retirement visas"as they are prohibited from working in Thailand 

Sure, but money in a Thai bank, earning interest, could meet the criteria of being an "investor."  So, whilst prohibited from working, the hold of a retirement visa is still earning money in Thailand, no matter how big, or how small. 

 

Like I said, go to a different office, at a different time, with a different member of staff, and you may get a different result. 

[connda]

In one graphic!

 

Chill. Wait for 2025.  See what happens, then choose to worry or not.

[connda]

4 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Yes

 

4 hours ago, BKKKevin said:

No… 

Maybe...

[KhunHeineken]

13 minutes ago, JeffersLos said:

Will it be required for annual extensions based on family or retirement? Will we need to give the IO our Thai tax slip to get these annual extensions? 

When news of this policy broke, many, including myself, gave a thought to how they would enforce this policy. 

 

Many members posted things like, "I can't see them chasing foreigners all over the country."  I, and some other members, post that they MAY require a document from the TRD at extension time, thus, no chasing, as it brings the foreigner to them, where "something" may have to be paid. 

 

I have also put forward that just like there is an overstay desk at boarders, there may be a TRD desk, where you will have to pay "something" to be able to leave.  Once again, no chasing, they can just sit back and wait for the foreigners to come to them. 

 

No one knows at this stage, but why chase the sheep when you can make the sheep come to you?  It's such an obvious and simple solution for Thai authorities that I would find it hard to believe they haven't considered it and / or will implement it. 

[JimTripper]

If things worked like clockwork you would be in Switzerland.

[HauptmannUK]

I think at the moment the situation can be summed up in the words of Donald Rumsfeld....."as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know."

 

The mind truly boggles at how they will implement any of this. I think only something like 6% of Thais pay taxes.  My wife's father was one of 14 siblings up in Udon. There are therefore numerous members of my wife's extended family scattered around the province and some in Pattaya too. They all seem to be involved in businesses of some sort. Some legal and some occupying what might be charitably described as a 'grey area'. I don't think any of them pay tax. My wife owns a couple of small businesses and also rents out two condos in Pattaya. I don't think she even has a tax number....  If I ever mention

tax she gives me a 'death stare'.  One of the extended family run a fair sized entertainment business in Pattaya. My wife and I were once talking about how much profit he was making (quite a bit).  I said 'he must pay a lot of tax on that'. My wife says 'He doesn't pay tax'.  I said 'How can he not pay tax?'. Her response was 'Some people pay tax and some people don't'.  I left it there.

[connda]

3 hours ago, retarius said:

The TRD will handle taxes covered by DTAs under the rules of the DTAs from each individual country which are likely not to be the same from each country. 

They'll have to add a few thousand new government tax workers who are capable of deciphering the 197 DTAs from the global village, deciphering each DTA for the each country in which there is a foreigner community which stays in Thailand over 180 day, and then pair up those DTAs with reality, and THEN develop an enforcement mechanism.  The adds significant liability cost to the plan to milk assets from foreigners. 

Thailand can't get 80% of those who are caught on highway speed cameras to pay their fines. What's my point?  With that said, now imagine how this is going to be enforced? 🤔 
Btw, my guess is that the average long-stay farang over 65 probably has no tax liability in Thailand, and on the contrary will end up having the Thai government pay them back their 15% withholding on the measly interest that the Thai banks pay in interest on the bank funds used for annual extension. It would barely pay for the time expended to file the tax form. Add to that the cost of government workers with government benefits which will be needed to be hired to process the additional work-load, and Thailand will find that it's losing money on the deal.

Now if they'd just focus on wealthy Thais attempting to game the Thai system, they could accrue additional tax income.  Coming after foreigners living here in order to beat the high cost of living in the West will be a losing proposition.  With that said?  Wait until, 2025, see what shakes, and then act accordingly.  Until then - grab a beer, kick back, and see if there is a 2025 to worry about given the nuclear posturing of the rather insane nuclear-armed countries with whom the West insists on provoking into a potential WW3 and nuclear Armageddon. If you live to see 2025, the Thai taxes may be the least of your worries. 

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, norbra said:

Step 1.My Australian aged pension is assessable income ,verified by Australian Tax Office.

 

Step 2, visit BKK revenue department to apply for a TIN.

My application was rejected as I didn't meet required criteria :

"Having income from employment in Thailand"

My experience for what it's worth

There are many levels of criteria for TIN applications

 

Apply again and tell them you need a TIN to file a return to request refund of withheld taxes on bank interest and stock dividends.

[connda]

33 minutes ago, HauptmannUK said:

The mind truly boggles at how they will implement any of this. I think only something like 6% of Thais pay taxes. 

 

How many owners of small massage shops pay taxes?  My guess - about 0%.  If Thailand had a tax enforcement agency like the US, then they would force every adult Thai to file taxes, but they don't.  I doubt they have enough government tax employees to process a fraction of the potential number of tax returns by the entire working adult population. 

"Thai" and "Planning" are mutually exclusive terms.  If they really do decide to selectively enforce taxation of foreigners while letting the majority of Thais go tax-free with no mandate to file taxes as a Thai national, then those "wealthy" foreigners who will actually have a tax liability charged at Thailand's insane taxation schedule, those foreigners will leave taking their money and investments with them.  Thailand loses again. 

I don't really see a scenario where Thailand benefits from taxing foreigners, other than VAT, and benefit in the long-term.  They'll just drive foreign investment and long-stay wealthy foreigners - who purchase big ticket items in Thailand and pays VAT on those items - away.  Thailand's loss. "Tough titties said the kitty when the milk ran dry." Back to "Thai" and "Planning" are mutually exclusive terms - Thais can't see the long-term - something they failed to inherit from their Chinese ancestors who do plan for the long-term.  As such, they'll fubar it for sure.

Worry about it in 2025. 

Edited September 15 by connda

[norbra]

23 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Apply again and tell them you need a TIN to file a return to request refund of withheld taxes on bank interest and stock dividends.

I am sure if my application spelled out "withholding tax"as purpose for request it would have been issued,my application was for personal income only