No More Dependent Extension Of Stay If The Host Foreigner Has A Retirement Extension Of Stay Permit

[Sateev]

It seems to be that the thais (in power) are terrified of farang 'colonies' becoming properly established. By that I mean having expats who have settled and their farang spouses having kids and those 'pure blood' farang affecting the demographics so that the thais have to deal with multi-culturalisation. They would rather have half-thai children running around so that they will be re-absorbed into the pure thai bloodline later on.

Now to be fair to us lot, I don't think there will ever be enough purely farang married to farang marriages/retirements to even get anywhere near to shifting the demographics in Thailand to a farang bias.

Thailand has far too many thais living in it for that.

But if it were a smaller country like Israel (which does restrict marriage / visas to Palestinians because of this) I would understand it more.

But it could be that the thais have seen the examples of different races moving about and settling into an established country in Europe and don't want that to happen in Thailand?

I think you are confusing miscegenation with culture.

In Israel, despite what you say, marriages are NOT restricted based on race. They are restricted SOLELY by religion, i.e., Christians may marry Christians, Muslims may Marry Muslims (of the same sect), Jews/Jews, etc. If one is willing to convert, any two people can marry.

So, by extension, the Thai test (if there were one) would be whether the farang were both of the same faith.

Restriction of visas to Palestinians is a poor comparison, because, to my knowlege, no contemporary farang has avowed Thailand's destruction, or would like to displace Thais in their country. I don't want to put too fine a point on this;suffice to say that the two regions/countries are not comparable.

I really don't think there is a racial component to it. A nationalistic component, yes. A fear of the pollution of their culture by Western culture, probably, and it has already happened, if TVs, KFC and hip hop can be considered pollution. And Western ideas of business ethics are anathema to the power elite in Thailand. The will become transparent only by being dragged, kicking and screaming into the 21st century. Not likely soon. Recent overtures by the EU, regarding election monitoring, have been soundly rejected, nationalist rhetoric at its most fiery.

I'll admit to puzzlement at why retirees were targeted. Perhaps because it was easy. Perhaps, as earlier stated, the Chinese have begun to overstep their bounds, and the Thais didn't want to risk their ire by laws/regs targeted directly at them. Or maybe it's a direct strike at the EU over their presumption that Thailand's elections need monitoring.

Lest I be misunderstood, I am not denying racism in Thailand. It certainly exists, though arguably more pronounced between diverse ethnicities within the country. And if we define racism as racial bias, in either direction, then it was NOT so long ago that we were the beneficiaries of said bias: women were getting Western-looking nose jobs, Western films and stars were all the rage (still are), and much of Western culture was emulated in Bangkok. We were tall, white gods, at least at the street level.

We are no longer.

In any case, it is a terrible shame that it is happening. And I know of no words that can ease the shock and dismay, and utter despair of those who have been targeted. I hope they will find a better place to live, and that this will serve to influence people to see this place for what it is: impermanent.

Sateev

[englishoak]

Apply at your own Immigration Province Office

After OCT 1. Applicants living in other provinces will NOT be able to apply through the immigration in Bangkok (they must apply locally).

Example: You don't like how your local immigration office interprets the laws so you having been going to another province such as Bangkok. Now you can no longer use that option. You must go to the local office after Oct 1st.

See other thread by sunbelt.

Get practicing brownnosing to that stupid immigration officer in the local as he is now GOD as far getting your next visa is concerned. Multiple visa runs anyone ?

[englishoak]

A new immigration order is expected to be released next week outlining these (and possibly other) changes

Quote sunbelt see other thread

We wait with baited breath.

[Sateev]

Again, more speculation, but after my morning bowl of joak, and a 7-11 espresso, I am beginning to like the 'retaliation for (perceived) attempts at election interference (oversight)' motive.

Reading the other Sunbelt thread has added fuel to this belief, since many changes, e.g., maps of everything, are designed to make us easier to find. Maps of home, place of work, etc. Makes us quick to find and round up, should it suit some murky political purpose.

I don't know what that purpose might be, nor do I understand how forcing people to report to their local immigration office, vs. the BKK office fits into the scheme, but I suspect the new order is a compendium of things that various factions in Immigration wanted done.

Time, indeed, will tell.

Sateev

[astor]

I feel very unwelcome in Thailand by now.

Only russian and chinese are welcome right now.

[Naam]

Is sounds like you have quite a bit of money AND a non-Thai wife... what are you doing in Thailand?!?

Assuming one is not interested in any of the countless forms of P4P available in Thailand, I can think of many other places where I would rather retire with my wife if I had "three different companies which I can instruct to pay me any salary required"

your first assumption is correct Otton. as far as "other places" are concerned we did an indepth study lasting more than three years before landing up in Thailand. of course there are other places/countries which offer in certain respects much more than Thailand, but it's the bottom line that counts.

if i recall correctly, we had a list containing 50 items each of which we "awarded" points (1-10). the first 10 items were mandatory, the second 20 items were those my wife and me agreed they should apply and the last 20 items were our separate and individual likings.

countries we considered were (not listed according to priorities):

Brazil

Mexico

Costa Rica

Uruguay

Turkey

Cyprus

Malta

Germany (our home country)

Emirates

India

Thailand

Malaysia

Singapore

Philippines

Thailand was the country collecting most points 2½ years ago, but perhaps the evaluation would be different now.

edited to emphasize the last sentence.

[wolfmanjack]

How many Thai people in Thailand? 60 million? 80 million? and how many farangs in Thailand? I really don't know, but if you tell me the figure I'll tell you how neglectable you and me and all the other farangs are for the Thai economy.

You want some numbers ???

Lets take the number of British here. Based on a BBC Report using where Social security checks get sent to there are 41,000 british retired here. Take 41,000 and multiply that by 65,000 per month you get 2,655,000,000 baht per month. Now multiply that by 12 to get the amount per year. 31,980,000,000 baht per year. Now use a money multiplier of 10 and that means that only the retired british here represent over 300 billion baht per year to the thai economy. Now take into account all of the other Falangs from all of the other countries. Maybe that is negligible to you but not to me.

Before any one else says it i know this number may be inflated by the fact that many may be on the 800,000 bank deposit and do not spend 65,000 per month but the number are still significant.

[gdhm]

If there is such a long list of countries warmly welcoming western retirees, why is everyone so concerned with regulations in the cold, cold place called Thailand?

Simple. Because we want to live in Thailand, or are already here, are heavily invested in living here, like living here, and don't want to be kicked out. Did you really have to ask? We like the country. We don't like the visa uncertainties.

The MOST obvious reason for MANY (in addition to the above) is that:

many of us happen to have Thai spouses and possibly children as well. Does anybody seriously believe our Thai family would wish to go another country, leave the home country, families and friends and way of life purely coz their foreign spouse has been forced out by whatever latest Visa rule change happens to cull them from living in Thailand.

A further reason.

who wants to leave a place that we now call home and maybe have done so for many years.

Another reason

Even though not putting "all your eggs in one basket" makes sense I expect most are not in a position to relocate without a lot of financial and emotional pain and and possibly lack the finances to do so. People do tend to live within their means based upon their current situations and not based upon ("what-if" scenarios). Living in Thailand comfortably due to its very low cost of living could make many of us near paupers in many of our home countries (especially if a retiree and living on a meagre pension, minus costs of relocation, and much time taken selling Thai property or land (whether owned by Thai spouse or house owned my Farang) thus denying usable cash.

Regards, Dave

[wolfmanjack]

[\quote]

The number of 'foreigners' living in Thailand (that means on retirement or extended visas etc) is actually extremely small compared to the Thai population figure. And most of those non-Thais are Japanese and Korean. The number of westerners is a very small fraction of 1%.

(How do I know? Studying an MA in Thai Studies at Chula - you get to meet some very important people and get to learn some very interesting information....)

Simon

So share some numbers with us? A few years back the commander at Chiang Mai immigration said the largest number of expats living in chiang mai registered at their office were americans and the second largest was japanese.

[jumnien]

Thanks for your answers, I appreciate them.

[Felt 35]

Apply at your own Immigration Province Office

After OCT 1. Applicants living in other provinces will NOT be able to apply through the immigration in Bangkok (they must apply locally).

Example: You don't like how your local immigration office interprets the laws so you having been going to another province such as Bangkok. Now you can no longer use that option. You must go to the local office after Oct 1st

Okay back to the good old style, fill up the bacpack with whisky and heading for the nearest office.

[brahmburgers]

I am reading this in the USA. I'm just thinking about maybe retiring to Thailand. I am very confused by all of this. What is your theory about what the Thai government is trying to do? Do they want people to retire there or not? What are the reasons for not wanting people to retire there? I am looking for information.

in some ways, Thai gov't reflects the Thai people: mutable, subjective, superstitious, outwardly open but inwardly protective, focused on family to the detriment of having expansive compassion to all people. The gov't is made up of people who worship money, so all their decisions, including this one about doubling visa requiremen, is about money.

This new edict will force many farang to leave for greener pastures, and it will compel some to go 'underground' and take their chances on not renewing.

Because of the subjectivity and mutability inherent in Thai decisions on high, it might behoove those farang who are affected by this new edict - to 'shop around' In other words, go to several different imm offices and see who offers the best spin on the laws. If you can bring one or more respectible looking Thai people with you (gold jewelry, talismans, nice suit, etc) and one or more well-groomed kids in toe - then your chances of getting a comparatively good deal improve.

The Chinese have no worries in this equation. They have strong under-the-radar lobbies and powerful people in high places. they know how to parlay their money and power in just the right subtle ways.

Plus, they have Asian features.

[simon43]

Wolfmanjack - I gave a figure. It's a very small fraction of 1%. Totally insignificant when compared to the 70 million or so Thai citizens. If the immigration office is swamped with hundreds of 'farangs' on a particular day, so what? It's less the population of a small moobahn

What is very much more important is the number of foreign tourists who visit Thailand each year, about 8 million or so at the last count. Their revenue hugely outstrips anything that longterm 'stayers' contribute to the country.

My view is that immigration policy is not about generating huge amounts of revenue. It's about integration and Thai-anisation. Changing immigration/visa rules to impose a higher revenue requirement on some sectors is simply a way of saying 'you are not the type of person that we encourage to stay longterm in Thailand'.

Simon

[jackr]

What is your theory about what the Thai government is trying to do? Do they want people to retire there or not? What are the reasons for not wanting people to retire there?

1. Make as much money out of everyone as possible, control everything and everyone whilst giving 0 security, stability.

2. Yes and No. Your money yes, you No.

3. Paranoia, control, power & wealth they quite simply want all the cake and to eat it

This has always been the way; take everything, give nothing

I've always said to myself and others Muang Thai is a holiday destination and don't get too comfortable, yet strangely enough find myself putting down roots in the vain hope that the country will one day grow up. Could be worse, they could up the retiree ceiling to 60 or, indeed, drop the visa full stop, or maybe they'll renege on this ludicrous decision altogether; who knows. The crux of this is the abruptness of it all and Sonthia Mugabe keeping us hangin' on a thread... not good.

[wolfmanjack]

They make things for us very difficult now. But did you ever ask yourself why? We do the same with them, since many years. If Thai People like to go to Europe or USA, it's almost impossibile for them to get a visa. Why don't we let them travel easely? Maybe they would let us stay easly too.

Get off of it.

Most thais can not afford to pay for the airplane ticket plus one night in the hotel in most first world countries. The thais that can prove they have the funds to pay for a vacation in the USA do not have a problem getting a visa unless they have other issues like a criminal record.

[lopburi3]

Again, more speculation, but after my morning bowl of joak, and a 7-11 espresso, I am beginning to like the 'retaliation for (perceived) attempts at election interference (oversight)' motive.

Reading the other Sunbelt thread has added fuel to this belief, since many changes, e.g., maps of everything, are designed to make us easier to find. Maps of home, place of work, etc. Makes us quick to find and round up, should it suit some murky political purpose.

I don't know what that purpose might be, nor do I understand how forcing people to report to their local immigration office, vs. the BKK office fits into the scheme, but I suspect the new order is a compendium of things that various factions in Immigration wanted done.

Time, indeed, will tell.

Sateev

1. Believe the use of maps has much more to do with normal immigration police checks than any "murky political purpose". Suspect it is a loss of face situation if an Embassy requests them to contact a person living here and it is delayed by not having current or detailed information. This could be a family emergency or an arrest warrant, as well as many things in between.

2. Local Immigration use would also tie into having the local authorities knowledgeable of the locations and they will be making the spot checks that families are living together and such.

Agree we can speculate on all kinds of 'other' reasons but believe the above is probably more realistic (although less exciting).

[registeredfalang]

Altho I'm not affected by these recent changes.....I'm on a retirement visa and married to a thai, it does make me wonder what [and when] THE NEXT SURPRISE will come and will it affect me??

I do have friends that this will affect and they are now wondering what to do......most are living on a shoe-string budget already and can't afford the doubling of reqired 800k bhatt. Most are thinking of alternatives to LOS, but at 60+, with significent investments in realestate and deep roots here, they are reluctant to leave.

When i first retired to LOS [10 yrs ago], I had already explored much of asia looking for that perfect place and i was fooled into thinking it was here....quality lifestyle for reasonable costs was the deciding factor, but with all these new $$ requirements, inflation, decreasing value of my $.....it's got me thinking about a "PLAN-B".

BUT WHERE NEXT??

[farang prince]

What is very much more important is the number of foreign tourists who visit Thailand each year, about 8 million or so at the last count. Their revenue hugely outstrips anything that longterm 'stayers' contribute to the country.

Simon

I have a hunch you are blowing these stats out your ass. Quote a source and specifics or go away. When you factor in resident farangs with longterm visas, you have to look at all aspects of their financial contribution to the Thai economy. Do you have those numbers? Because I guarantee you, no one else does. They are impossible to calculate. Tourism rises and falls. Some years are good, some bad. Longterm residents contribute to the Thai economy on a daily basis, 365 days a year.

[TexasRanger]

Altho I'm not affected by these recent changes.....I'm on a retirement visa and married to a thai, it does make me wonder what [and when] THE NEXT SURPRISE will come and will it affect me??

I do have friends that this will affect and they are now wondering what to do......most are living on a shoe-string budget already and can't afford the doubling of reqired 800k bhatt. Most are thinking of alternatives to LOS, but at 60+, with significent investments in realestate and deep roots here, they are reluctant to leave.

When i first retired to LOS [10 yrs ago], I had already explored much of asia looking for that perfect place and i was fooled into thinking it was here....quality lifestyle for reasonable costs was the deciding factor, but with all these new $ requirements, inflation, decreasing value of my $.....it's got me thinking about a "PLAN-B".

BUT WHERE NEXT??

The problem is, after travelling to so many countries over the years I have come to the conclusion that nowhere is perfect, some places seem like a better place to live until you get there. If you are married to a Thai I don't think you will have any problem in the future. Thailand really doesn't have a great deal to offer anymore but neither do a lot of other places, if we are brutaly honest, most people either came here for the low cost of living and or the availability of sex (though many deny it now).

If you are more than 60 % happy about where you are living I would say that's not bad and enjoy it and put up with the minor annoyances.

[wolfmanjack]

Wolfmanjack - I gave a figure. It's a very small fraction of 1%. Totally insignificant when compared to the 70 million or so Thai citizens. If the immigration office is swamped with hundreds of 'farangs' on a particular day, so what? It's less the population of a small moobahn

What is very much more important is the number of foreign tourists who visit Thailand each year, about 8 million or so at the last count. Their revenue hugely outstrips anything that longterm 'stayers' contribute to the country.

My view is that immigration policy is not about generating huge amounts of revenue. It's about integration and Thai-anisation. Changing immigration/visa rules to impose a higher revenue requirement on some sectors is simply a way of saying 'you are not the type of person that we encourage to stay longterm in Thailand'.

Simon

I did not ask for a figure i asked for some numbers. Saying a small fraction of 1% means nothing. Is it 1/2 of 1% or 350,000 ? 1/4 of 1% or 175,000? 1/10th of 1% or 70,000? I know it has to be more than that since there are 41,000 retired brits here.

[simon43]

Farangprince - the tourism figures are readily available from the TAT. I said 8 million or so. Sorry if I didn't give you an exact figure

You are missiing my point re longterm foreigners in Thailand. It is not about money (as most foreigners seem to think). It is about integration and 'Thainess'. Go read books about he who cannot be mentioned and what he has said on the subject and maybe you will begin to understand. Go and read about Thai history and the part that foreigners played in the development of Thailand.

Integration is of prime importance, money is secondary.

Just look at the adverts from one of the forum sponsors. Get a 1 year ED visa if you sign up (and attend) Thai language classes. The policy is to encourage integration and understanding of Thai culture. But if you don't want to 'play ball', then you are gently encouraged not to stay in Thailand.

Simon

PS, re the figures for the number of longstay immigrants, these are unpublished figures that I have obtained. Sorry, can't reveal my sources

[Mobi]

Again, more speculation, but after my morning bowl of joak, and a 7-11 espresso, I am beginning to like the 'retaliation for (perceived) attempts at election interference (oversight)' motive.

Reading the other Sunbelt thread has added fuel to this belief, since many changes, e.g., maps of everything, are designed to make us easier to find. Maps of home, place of work, etc. Makes us quick to find and round up, should it suit some murky political purpose.

I don't know what that purpose might be, nor do I understand how forcing people to report to their local immigration office, vs. the BKK office fits into the scheme, but I suspect the new order is a compendium of things that various factions in Immigration wanted done.

Time, indeed, will tell.

Sateev

1. Believe the use of maps has much more to do with normal immigration police checks than any "murky political purpose". Suspect it is a loss of face situation if an Embassy requests them to contact a person living here and it is delayed by not having current or detailed information. This could be a family emergency or an arrest warrant, as well as many things in between.

2. Local Immigration use would also tie into having the local authorities knowledgeable of the locations and they will be making the spot checks that families are living together and such.

Agree we can speculate on all kinds of 'other' reasons but believe the above is probably more realistic (although less exciting).

I have already posted that I don't believe the map is big deal. A couple of years ago I mistakenly made an abortive attempt to change form a retirement extension to a marriage extension ( as the then goal posts only required 400k in the bank as opposed to 800k for retirement).

One of the requirements for a marriage extension is that you provide a map of where you live. This is so that an immigration officer can visit your home and satisfy himself that you living as husband and wife with a Thai national.

Anyway, we just drew a simple sketch map - freehand - with the roads and key pointers (like the local Wat) in Thai, and it was perfectly acceptable, and subsequently the Immigration officer had no problem in finding my house.

(My marriage visa extension was rejected, and I went back a retirement extension - but that's another story)

I'm sure Loburi3 is right. They just want to know where everyone is and how to contact them - for whatever reason. Not unreasonable, but it would be much simpler to have all 'resident' foreigners register with their local Or Bor Tor office, as they certainly know the precise locality of all the local Moo Bahns. This could be computerised, and the information passed onto Immigration. Yes, I know..... TIT

[gdhm]

This has been a issue the past week. They want to see separate accounts with proof the money came from overseas (3 months before the application). Our lawyers have been able to get a extension with a joint bank account but they had to jump in the hoops of fire to get it done. Just like the ocean which has different moods so does Thai immigration with interpretation of rules.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

How anybody can open an account and have money in it for 3 months if they are due to extend or apply during the period 1 Sep 2007 to 30 Nov 2007 when Thailand has only announced the new requirement a few days ago to be implemented with immediate effect beats me and defies logic.

Surely, it is a rule almost nobody can meet and any reasonably intelligent person would have to assume it was intended to be that way.

[Pakboong]

Apply at your own Immigration Province Office

After OCT 1. Applicants living in other provinces will NOT be able to apply through the immigration in Bangkok (they must apply locally).

Example: You don't like how your local immigration office interprets the laws so you having been going to another province such as Bangkok. Now you can no longer use that option. You must go to the local office after Oct 1st.

See other thread by sunbelt.

Get practicing brownnosing to that stupid immigration officer in the local as he is now GOD as far getting your next visa is concerned. Multiple visa runs anyone ?

The street level immigration officer is as annoyed by this kind of change as we are.

[simon43]

quoting Greg from another recent thread:

Possible Amendments:

They are re-considering the criteria for applicants supporting a Thai child and may allow a foreign parent UNDER 50 to apply. Not confirmed.

[\quote]

Not confirmed yet... but is this not another example of how immigration policy is being eased for those who are integrating into Thai society? (ie marrying, having children etc).

Just take a big step back and look at the visa/immigration policy changes over the past year. For me, the message is becoming clearer.

Simon

[Sateev]

I have already posted that I don't believe the map is big deal. A couple of years ago I mistakenly made an abortive attempt to change form a retirement extension to a marriage extension ( as the then goal posts only required 400k in the bank as opposed to 800k for retirement).

One of the requirements for a marriage extension is that you provide a map of where you live. This is so that an immigration officer can visit your home and satisfy himself that you living as husband and wife with a Thai national.

Anyway, we just drew a simple sketch map - freehand - with the roads and key pointers (like the local Wat) in Thai, and it was perfectly acceptable, and subsequently the Immigration officer had no problem in finding my house.

(My marriage visa extension was rejected, and I went back a retirement extension - but that's another story)

I'm sure Loburi3 is right. They just want to know where everyone is and how to contact them - for whatever reason. Not unreasonable, but it would be much simpler to have all 'resident' foreigners register with their local Or Bor Tor office, as they certainly know the precise locality of all the local Moo Bahns. This could be computerised, and the information passed onto Immigration. Yes, I know..... TIT

Two points, since reading the Sunbelt post in another thread:

They are now requiring maps to your home, AND your place of business, as well as pictures. I suppose this could be explained by the need to contact you in an emergency, and by wanting to avoid loss of face by the authority trying to find your home or office. I wonder just what might be described as an 'emergency' though...

Bramburgers has suggested that you 'shop around' at various Immigration offices to find an official sensitive to your situation. This will become immpossible, as you will be required to use the office for your area, ONLY. No more going to BKK, where they may be more likely to shuffle your paperwork through (workload). The local guy will have ultimate power, for better or for worse.

Sateev

[pascharay]

The pattaya Montien Hotel is holding a meeting forthe revival of the Elite Cards

1000000 / 5 years visa/ golfing rights / VIP Fastrack service at the Suvanabumi Airport

This is another brilliant idea

[JaiGuru]

I have a hunch you are blowing these stats out your ass. Quote a source and specifics or go away.

What a sweetheart...

A quick look at the TAT website shows that in calendar year 2006 the international tourist arrivals excluding Thais numbered 13,821,802.

[Mobi]

Two points, since reading the Sunbelt post in another thread:

They are now requiring maps to your home, AND your place of business, as well as pictures. I suppose this could be explained by the need to contact you in an emergency, and by wanting to avoid loss of face by the authority trying to find your home or office. I wonder just what might be described as an 'emergency' though...

Bramburgers has suggested that you 'shop around' at various Immigration offices to find an official sensitive to your situation. This will become immpossible, as you will be required to use the office for your area, ONLY. No more going to BKK, where they may be more likely to shuffle your paperwork through (workload). The local guy will have ultimate power, for better or for worse.

Sateev

Just to avoid any confusion here - us retirees don't have a place of busisness.

If we did, we'd be in real trouble

[Felt 35]

My view is that immigration policy is not about generating huge amounts of revenue. It's about integration and Thai-anisation. Changing immigration/visa rules to impose a higher revenue requirement on some sectors is simply a way of saying 'you are not the type of person that we encourage to stay longterm in Thailand'.

Simon

I see your point, but if we analyse this "immigration policy" and "you are not type of person we encourage to stay long-time in Thailand"

Then we are heading in to ugly and murky conclusions that in the end will include words as racism.

No decent country in 2007 will have representatives for their immigration which one moment require one to follow their laws and in the next moment demand a bribe!

That’s directly to speak with double tongue from they who represent the country to the outside world!

I think few foreign retired people have problems with whatever new rules applying to them, so far its not get to the length as it can be seen as discrimination. This last move changes a dependant policy. Most countries see a wife as a dependant of the husband when it comes to immigration.

BTW, I’m not directly affected by the last move from Immigration, but feel with they who get problems because of it. My time will soon enough come, not because I not can follow their requirements, but when born and grown up in a country where equality rules this place begin to feels as a big step back in history.