Thai Immigration Crackdown On Ed Visas

[moe666]

All you people who are cheering this are absolute scum, you know that? At least people who use ED visa's are trying to do something to stay here legitimately.

Some of you lot forget that we are essentially all here for similar reasons, it's just that not all of us are lucky enough to have a job or be over a certain age so that we can get the visa we need...

You might laugh now while you have your comfortable retirement visa or whatever it is, but one day they'll clamp down on those as well - then perhaps you'll wish you weren't quite so gleeful about the struggles of the rest of us to stay here. Morons. Shameful

Qualifying for a retirement visa isn't luck you get older just as you will and then you can stay legally. No we are not here for the same reason. Go home get a job and when you meet the requirements you can come and stay in Thailand and be legal

[Cybervlad]

If some find learning Thai so hard what about learning Russian?

...

Some may question my fluency in Thai ( I can certainly improve ) but I am a fluent Russian speaker so I can take good care of your Russian learning needs.

I understand when people learn Thai in Thailand with native speakers. But I find idea of learning Russian in Thailand with non-native speaker quite strange...

Nothing personal.

[looping]

Time for the Thai government to accept that Most Thai schools simply can't afford 100,000 baht p/m for a qualified farang teacher and give annual visas for the teachers who they do hire. This won't solve the problem of the 'ed-visas' but it will greatly reduce it, filtering out the farang who are here to earn an honest living teaching English. They should give schools some credit with regards to their hiring process (ie if they want to hire some dumb ass who's going to turn up for work every day with a hangover then their business will go down) and allow them to give visas to their partially qualified farang teachers. It should be noted that many farang teaching in Thailand are highly committed to their jobs and are constantly punished for not having a degree, unable to get a work permit, having to go on visa runs, etc as we all know. If the Thai government could get their heads around the fact that there are many effective farang teachers who don't possess a degree, then they could at least 'eliminate them from their inquiries' (Ed-visas), whilst also making them feel like their hard work is appreciated. Refusing education visas just seems like a knee jerk reaction from a system which is too aloof to make informed decisions.

[Berkshire]

I misunderstood you then.

Personally, I do enough for society here and have zero interest in doing more. My generosity only goes so far in a xenophobic country that doesn't want us here in the first place and with a people who (in many locations) will generally try to cheat you before being honest.

If another person doesn't want to contribute or be part of society (any society), that is a choice a free man has, and his choice alone. Not mine, yours, or any Thai. Lots of people just like to be left alone and want nothing to do with the locals or other foreigners. And to be honest, when you see how many people are happy every time there is a visa crack down, I can't blame them for staying away from other foreigners.

If its such a xenophobic country and a bad place to be, then why are you here?

Good question. The short answer is that he's a simpleton with zero social skills. Tokay has proven this time and time again.

[Richard4849]

Please list the 40 countries and the work-study regulations for each. Thank you.

Absurd, that would take a long time indeed... and you know that.

40 countries was mentioned to illustrate that I am possibly more widely travelled than the majority of posters.

So, in normal logical context:

There are around 200 countries in the world, right.

The first statement from JD was that the majority of countries do not allow students to have part-time work.

Thus, being the first statement, this is the one which should be proven- not my response.

I eagerly await the list of 100+ countries which do not allow for part-time work by students :jap:

Please go back and read my statement again. Not only are you making a fallacious argument (attributing something to me that I did not say) you are ducking a direct question.

If you are referring to being an EU citizen in another EU country etc .... pity This isn't the EU.

You asked the question, after I responded to JD who claims that the majority of countries do not allow part-time work by foreign students... this being the first statement, should be first to be proven, not my responce.

What I am referring to is not EU within EU... but something more like this:

'holders of South African study visas may not engage in full time employment they are permitted to work part-time for no more than 20 hours per week.'

I am sure you can appreciate that I am not going to answer for 40 countries

Because you CAN'T. You may have been to 40 countries, but I'm pretty sure you haven't the first clue about the work/study regulations of more than a handful (if that). I've been to twice as many countries as you have, and I sure couldn't tell you anything about the work/study policies of more than one or two.

[stockholm1995]

I know Thai people that have been studying or have studied English for 10 years or more and give the blank look when asked "how's it going" or "how was your day?"

My gf's brother recently graduated with a bachelor in english..

Yesterday he said 'Your birthday day after tomorrow'

I asked him is today the 6th?

blank stare

today 6th?

no today, tomorrow. after tomorrow. birthday

But today is the 6th right?

10sec blank..

Yes, and he walks away.

Seriously. Most of the time he has no clue whatsoever when i talk to him about the simplest thing, unless its 'give me the key' or 'take this'

We pay him 6000baht a month though, so he got what he deserve, hes slave labor lol

Edited July 7, 2011 by stockholm1995

[moe666]

All these stories for people want to stay here for whatever reason should be given a chance no matter what, no body actually takes away nothing from Thailand and only put into the economy . A lot of foreigners are against foreigners staying here I dont know why ... there is no unity .... that's why you can be pushed pillar to post Anyway god bless us all because the Thai's will not bless us

If you are gaming the system why should you be given a chance. When they have these crackdowns on people gaming a very lax system the whiners come out and say they should be treated different, no you should meet allof the requirements of the system if you cannot go home until you do. You will not get any mercy from me nor do you deserve any.

[Beetlejuice]

A lot of foreigners are against foreigners staying here I dont know why ... there is no unity ....

Those types fall into one (or more) of the following category:

Option 1) They have failed or ran away from their home country and unless they are drunk, they don't play well with others.

Option 2) Loners who don't like people and came her to be left alone.

Option 3) Haters.

Only they know which option describes them the best.

Actually, all three describes me, so does this mean I have passed the test and can now be part of the Thai visa gang?

Edited July 7, 2011 by Beetlejuice

[badmedicine]

@moe666

hard but fair!

[chunktal]

ou keep asking the question but you're not listening to the answers. As i said half a dozen pages ago, its the fact that you're wilfully and knowingly breaking the law that some people find objectionable. Why do you think you have the right just to waltz around here and break the law and then feel hard done by when people thing that's wrong?

Many foreigners break law in Thailand

From drive without seatbelt/helmet to work on internet from Thailand without work permit (example work on any forums without work permit)

Also teach English in spare time without work permit. All same same. Many silly law, many foreigner break.

You happy to participate. Mostly nobody care, except you.

Many Thais break silly law too, don't pay tax, drive with no licence, drink drive, etc.

So let me see if I have this correct?

I get the correct visa, work permit and pay my taxes but if I happen to think that someone, who by their own admission is breaking the law, should be held accountable, I am scum, an idiot, a moron or one of the other blanket statements cast out by those who feel that the law is not for them.

However if I change my point of view, it would be perfectly acceptable for me to get drunk and take out a few people going about their business???

Correct me if I'm not following you properly on this?

Edited July 7, 2011 by chunktal

[Berkshire]

All you people who are cheering this are absolute scum, you know that? At least people who use ED visa's are trying to do something to stay here legitimately.

Some of you lot forget that we are essentially all here for similar reasons, it's just that not all of us are lucky enough to have a job or be over a certain age so that we can get the visa we need...

You might laugh now while you have your comfortable retirement visa or whatever it is, but one day they'll clamp down on those as well - then perhaps you'll wish you weren't quite so gleeful about the struggles of the rest of us to stay here. Morons. Shameful

Dredd, you seem to be somewhat of a raging maniac. Others have tried to explain to you how it is in a polite manner, but you seem to be only concerned about your own needs. Well let me tell you how it is. If you cannot find a legal way to stay in Thailand, THEN YOU SHOULDN'T F**KING BE HERE! And whether I'm sympathetic to your plight, or "gleeful about your struggles," it just doesn't matter. Because you SHOULDN'T F**KING BE HERE! If you are a short-term tourist, Thailand wants you here. If you have skills that can qualify you for a work permit, Thailand wants you here. If you are of retirement age and can support yourself, Thailand wants you here. If you want to open a factory and create jobs, Thailand wants you here. If you're married to a Thai, or are pursuing an education, or any other number of legitimate reasons, Thailand wants you here. If after this long lists of eligibility criterion, you STILL can't find a legal way to stay, THEN YOU SHOULDN'T F**KING BE HERE! Wanting to stay in Thailand to be with your girlfriend, or your boyfriend, or your pet ferret, those are not legitimate reasons. Wake up and smell the coffee! Thailand doesn't want you here! And it's their country! You got a problem with that? THEN GO START YOUR OWN F**KING COUNTRY! Then you can let in any lowlife maggot you like, any time, all the time.

Rant over.

[fonkgo]

hmmm, i dont agree with you and certainly don't appreciate being called scum.

I came here 4 years ago with only 2000 quid and a plan.

It costs me 100,000 Baht every year to pay for company fees, work permit, Non B visa (+flights to KL) and the social contributions of 4 Thais plus boarder runs every 90 days, etc etc.

My point is I pay... you don't.

So you can take your ed visa and stic..................

All you people who are cheering this are absolute scum, you know that? At least people who use ED visa's are trying to do something to stay here legitimately.

Some of you lot forget that we are essentially all here for similar reasons, it's just that not all of us are lucky enough to have a job or be over a certain age so that we can get the visa we need...

You might laugh now while you have your comfortable retirement visa or whatever it is, but one day they'll clamp down on those as well - then perhaps you'll wish you weren't quite so gleeful about the struggles of the rest of us to stay here. Morons. Shameful

Can you please tell me how you could setup a company in Thailand without exploiting the nominee loophole? I would guess that like the other 99% of foreign business in Thailand you are not in any way more legal then the people 'exploiting'education visas! If your thai wife or gf is in the company papers that is also nothing else but an illegal nominee. My apologies should you be in the rare 1%with a genuine Thai business partner…

[blackadder]

It is very simple.

1st Thai Government must have tuition plans from the schools.

2nd Teachers must be trained to teach in the subject.

3rd Students must have 80% compulsory attendance to continue study.

If students do not perform the test at the end of the school year, they must repeat the school year. Like it is in a normal skolesystem.

We do not send student down to rector for a spanking, do we. Although the female boss of imigration attracts me like Ilse did on film in the 70s.

It's not child's fault they do not learn anything as long as they follows the tuition plans from the schools.

If there are too many who miss the test there must be something wrong with the school's way of teaching or tuition plan.

Do not beat students over the head because they do not learn anything, but turn to the schools instead. This would be done in most countries, I think ...

But I am unfortunately also realistic about the 1000 thb under the table and everyone gets a slice of cake ...

The big fish eat the small fish...

But remember there will always be a bigger fish out there...

[rgs2001uk]

Hey - it was a better attempt than the guy in the original story made, one that would likely have been understood by the immi guy, caused him to crack a big grin or even laugh out loud, and send me on my way with my visa.

My school that you won't be attending? You couldn't. I didn't need to go to school to learn that much Thai.

Bino, sorry my post didnt come over in the manner I intended, wasnt meant as a putdown on you.

You are correct your attempt is way better than some moron who has supposedly bben studying Thai for 7 years.

The reference to the school was a veiled reference to a poster who recently added me as a friend, see another thread for that.

[rgs2001uk]

All you people who are cheering this are absolute scum, you know that? At least people who use ED visa's are trying to do something to stay here legitimately.

Some of you lot forget that we are essentially all here for similar reasons, it's just that not all of us are lucky enough to have a job or be over a certain age so that we can get the visa we need...

You might laugh now while you have your comfortable retirement visa or whatever it is, but one day they'll clamp down on those as well - then perhaps you'll wish you weren't quite so gleeful about the struggles of the rest of us to stay here. Morons. Shameful

Dredd, you seem to be somewhat of a raging maniac. Others have tried to explain to you how it is in a polite manner, but you seem to be only concerned about your own needs. Well let me tell you how it is. If you cannot find a legal way to stay in Thailand, THEN YOU SHOULDN'T F**KING BE HERE! And whether I'm sympathetic to your plight, or "gleeful about your struggles," it just doesn't matter. Because you SHOULDN'T F**KING BE HERE! If you are a short-term tourist, Thailand wants you here. If you have skills that can qualify you for a work permit, Thailand wants you here. If you are of retirement age and can support yourself, Thailand wants you here. If you want to open a factory and create jobs, Thailand wants you here. If you're married to a Thai, or are pursuing an education, or any other number of legitimate reasons, Thailand wants you here. If after this long lists of eligibility criterion, you STILL can't find a legal way to stay, THEN YOU SHOULDN'T F**KING BE HERE! Wanting to stay in Thailand to be with your girlfriend, or your boyfriend, or your pet ferret, those are not legitimate reasons. Wake up and smell the coffee! Thailand doesn't want you here! And it's their country! You got a problem with that? THEN GO START YOUR OWN F**KING COUNTRY! Then you can let in any lowlife maggot you like, any time, all the time.

Rant over.

Berkshire, kudos, hats off, etc etc well said.

The sooner the vast majority realise we are nothing more than guests here, at the mercy of immigration every year, the easier their lives will be.

You cant get the visa you need because it doesnt exist, get it through your head, not wanted or needed.

[ratcatcher]

All you people who are cheering this are absolute scum, you know that? At least people who use ED visa's are trying to do something to stay here legitimately.

Some of you lot forget that we are essentially all here for similar reasons, it's just that not all of us are lucky enough to have a job or be over a certain age so that we can get the visa we need...

You might laugh now while you have your comfortable retirement visa or whatever it is, but one day they'll clamp down on those as well - then perhaps you'll wish you weren't quite so gleeful about the struggles of the rest of us to stay here. Morons. Shameful

Dredd, you seem to be somewhat of a raging maniac. Others have tried to explain to you how it is in a polite manner, but you seem to be only concerned about your own needs. Well let me tell you how it is. If you cannot find a legal way to stay in Thailand, THEN YOU SHOULDN'T F**KING BE HERE! And whether I'm sympathetic to your plight, or "gleeful about your struggles," it just doesn't matter. Because you SHOULDN'T F**KING BE HERE! If you are a short-term tourist, Thailand wants you here. If you have skills that can qualify you for a work permit, Thailand wants you here. If you are of retirement age and can support yourself, Thailand wants you here. If you want to open a factory and create jobs, Thailand wants you here. If you're married to a Thai, or are pursuing an education, or any other number of legitimate reasons, Thailand wants you here. If after this long lists of eligibility criterion, you STILL can't find a legal way to stay, THEN YOU SHOULDN'T F**KING BE HERE! Wanting to stay in Thailand to be with your girlfriend, or your boyfriend, or your pet ferret, those are not legitimate reasons. Wake up and smell the coffee! Thailand doesn't want you here! And it's their country! You got a problem with that? THEN GO START YOUR OWN F**KING COUNTRY! Then you can let in any lowlife maggot you like, any time, all the time.

Rant over.

Berkshire, exquisitely and succinctly stated.

Perfect.

Moral: If you ain't got the matches, don't even think about getting into the kitchen!

[a99az]

I don't see what all the fuss is about. People pay to do an Ed visa, then bunk off from school! It's a no brainer they lose out, and every one else wins, so if thats what they want, why not? They have PAID for it, up front and are plowing money into the schools. Very nice for the country and everyone should be happy, shouldn't they! Or have I missed something?

Or is it that someone missed out on the bung, oh dear me.

[badmedicine]

All you people who are cheering this are absolute scum, you know that? At least people who use ED visa's are trying to do something to stay here legitimately.

Some of you lot forget that we are essentially all here for similar reasons, it's just that not all of us are lucky enough to have a job or be over a certain age so that we can get the visa we need...

You might laugh now while you have your comfortable retirement visa or whatever it is, but one day they'll clamp down on those as well - then perhaps you'll wish you weren't quite so gleeful about the struggles of the rest of us to stay here. Morons. Shameful

Dredd, you seem to be somewhat of a raging maniac. Others have tried to explain to you how it is in a polite manner, but you seem to be only concerned about your own needs. Well let me tell you how it is. If you cannot find a legal way to stay in Thailand, THEN YOU SHOULDN'T F**KING BE HERE! And whether I'm sympathetic to your plight, or "gleeful about your struggles," it just doesn't matter. Because you SHOULDN'T F**KING BE HERE! If you are a short-term tourist, Thailand wants you here. If you have skills that can qualify you for a work permit, Thailand wants you here. If you are of retirement age and can support yourself, Thailand wants you here. If you want to open a factory and create jobs, Thailand wants you here. If you're married to a Thai, or are pursuing an education, or any other number of legitimate reasons, Thailand wants you here. If after this long lists of eligibility criterion, you STILL can't find a legal way to stay, THEN YOU SHOULDN'T F**KING BE HERE! Wanting to stay in Thailand to be with your girlfriend, or your boyfriend, or your pet ferret, those are not legitimate reasons. Wake up and smell the coffee! Thailand doesn't want you here! And it's their country! You got a problem with that? THEN GO START YOUR OWN F**KING COUNTRY! Then you can let in any lowlife maggot you like, any time, all the time.

Rant over.

Berkshire, exquisitely and succinctly stated.

Perfect.

Moral: If you ain't got the matches, don't even think about getting into the kitchen!

Gotta say I loved the pet ferret part!!

[MaxYakov]

If its such a xenophobic country and a bad place to be, then why are you here?

No, you are entitled to freedoms and to contribute or not in the country of your birth (and citizenship), there you get the freedom of choice, get to pick what you want to do etc.

There may or may not be guaranteed human rights in one's birth country.

Do you believe all countries are equivalent in this regard?

If you CHOOSE to move to another country, then you HAVE to ACCEPT their rules, their ways, their decisions, no matter if you like it or not. All foreigners are here BY CHOICE and allowed to stay here for the reasons we can through the VISA's that are available. Taking advantage of a situation and then complaining when it gets cut out is not a right, as we CHOSE to be here, we weren't forced.

One should obey the laws of the country where they are resident whether they are a citizen or not.

In a free country that believes in rights of the individual, 'their ways' do not have to be accepted by the individual unless one is unfortunate enough to move to a country having a totalitarian government. Anyone volunteering to move to North Korea?

By coming here and CHOOSING to stay here, you automatically have to accept how things are and obide [sic] by the rules that you accepted when you entered Thailand. If it was your home country, then it is different as you are entitled to voice your opinion as you haven't choosen to live there as it was your place of birth.

One is obliged to obey the laws in whichever country they are in - citizen or foreigner. Whether or not one is allowed to voice an opinion is dependent on the laws of the country. Totalitarian countries and countries with limited freedom of speech for both citizens and foreigners are more constraining. In Mexico, foreigners are forbidden from making political statements, and I wouldn't get too vocal even as a citizen of Mexico (example country).

Do you see what I'm getting at? Regardless of whether or not Thailand could, does or will benefit from letting foreigners stay here easier, it chooses to have these rules (and they are easier than most other countries), which you accepted when you chose to live here, knowingly as well.

Actually, this statement makes me wonder how many foreigners know Thai law as it applies to them ... and how it may differ as it applies to a Thai citizen (where and when it does).

You're(not aimed at you specifically) here by CHOICE, accept the situation or you can decide its not the place for you and go back home, where you can voice your dissatisfaction with the government in which you are a citizen.

Assuming, of course that their 'home' allows them to voice their dissatisfaction with the government even as a citizen. Care to move to Saudi Arabia?

Thailand owes us nothing and to expect anything else is pure arrogance. We 'owe' Thailand for allowing us the CHOICE to stay here relatively easy. They could make it a lot harder and thats the point.

Really? Would you like to compare the tourist industry of Thailand with that of North Korea and then prepare to answer why they are so different? Here's a quote on North Korean tourism from Wiki:

Organized by the state owned Korea International Travel Company, Tourism in North Korea is highly controlled by the government, and as such it is not a frequently visited destination — roughly 1,500 Western tourists visit North Korea each year, along with thousands of Asians. Tourists must go on guided tours and must have their tour guides with them at all times.

How about public safety? Does Thailand (or any other country) owe both the citizens and foreigners some level of safety? How about basic human rights such as an impartial justice system to both citizens and visitors? I'd be careful about use of terms such as 'pure arrogance' if I were you. I agree that Thailand should (for one thing) perform criminal background checks for all visitors and forbid entry to individuals with certain criminal backgrounds. How do you think that would affect tourist revenues?

Too many believe they have an inherent RIGHT to stay in Thailand because they are foreign and can support themselves and 'bring money into the country'. Well you/we don't and rightly shouldn't, just as for every other countries immigration which works exactly the same (or are even more picky about who they let into the country).

Really? How do you know how many believe they have an 'inherent RIGHT' to stay in Thailand under any assumptions?

Where do you get this idea, since it applies to almost no other situation ... except the USA and large parts of Europe. Maybe the loose immigration policies of Europe and the USA (and others) is leading people to believe it applies to Thailand as well. However, I've met several Burmese (using the persistent CIA name) in Thailand that have 'bought' their right to be resident and not through the Immigration Bureau.

Edited July 7, 2011 by MaxYakov

[Jawnie]

I'm on an ED visa, and I attend Thai language classes. Pronunciation is a bitch.

[Richard4849]

I don't see what all the fuss is about. People pay to do an Ed visa, then bunk off from school! It's a no brainer they lose out, and every one else wins, so if thats what they want, why not? They have PAID for it, up front and are plowing money into the schools. Very nice for the country and everyone should be happy, shouldn't they! Or have I missed something?

Or is it that someone missed out on the bung, oh dear me.

Yes, you've missed something: they are fraudulently claiming student status when they are clearly not students. Paying tuition at a visa mill/school does not make you a student.

How can you not possibly understand that?

[riceman09]

All you people who are cheering this are absolute scum, you know that? At least people who use ED visa's are trying to do something to stay here legitimately.

Some of you lot forget that we are essentially all here for similar reasons, it's just that not all of us are lucky enough to have a job or be over a certain age so that we can get the visa we need...

You might laugh now while you have your comfortable retirement visa or whatever it is, but one day they'll clamp down on those as well - then perhaps you'll wish you weren't quite so gleeful about the struggles of the rest of us to stay here. Morons. Shameful

I bet you are one of those against illegal immigration in your own country but do exactly the same when it suit you. Please explain what's legitimate about telling lies in order to get ED visa and not attending courses at all.

[badmedicine]

Well, we seem to have successfully got to the nub of the issue, having divided ourselves fairly neatly between two schools of thought:

1. The Illegals

I can do what I want so long as it doesn't affect you.

2. The Legals

If you're here, play by the bloody rules!

I doubt this thread is going to get much further than this impasse, but please someone wake me up if it does.

[Richard4849]

Well, we seem to have successfully got to the nub of the issue, having divided ourselves fairly neatly between two schools of thought:

1. The Illegals

I can do what I want so long as it doesn't affect you.

2. The Legals

If you're here, play by the bloody rules!

I doubt this thread is going to get much further than this impasse, but please someone wake me up if it does.

I think you've summed it up perfectly.

[riceman09]

Well, we seem to have successfully got to the nub of the issue, having divided ourselves fairly neatly between two schools of thought:

1. The Illegals

I can do what I want so long as it doesn't affect you.

2. The Legals

If you're here, play by the bloody rules!

I doubt this thread is going to get much further than this impasse, but please someone wake me up if it does.

I think you've summed it up perfectly.

I'm sure it'll be great remembering this thread when you'll get caught!!

Have agreat day1

[Dap]

All you people who are cheering this are absolute scum, you know that? At least people who use ED visa's are trying to do something to stay here legitimately.

Some of you lot forget that we are essentially all here for similar reasons, it's just that not all of us are lucky enough to have a job or be over a certain age so that we can get the visa we need...

You might laugh now while you have your comfortable retirement visa or whatever it is, but one day they'll clamp down on those as well - then perhaps you'll wish you weren't quite so gleeful about the struggles of the rest of us to stay here. Morons. Shameful

And those essentially similar reasons (in your estimation) would be ...??

[jdinasia]

I'm sure it'll be great remembering this thread when you'll get caught!!

Have agreat day1

I am certain Richard won't get "caught" If you want to be a student in Thailand (thus qualifying you to have and keep an Ed visa) it is simple really.

After you pay your fee, attend class.

Currently you can do this for a long time ...The guy mentioned in the OP on his 7th straight year of Ed visas for learning Thai obviously failed that simple (very simple!) rule.

[Chonburiram]

All you people who are cheering this are absolute scum, you know that? At least people who use ED visa's are trying to do something to stay here legitimately.

Some of you lot forget that we are essentially all here for similar reasons, it's just that not all of us are lucky enough to have a job or be over a certain age so that we can get the visa we need...

You might laugh now while you have your comfortable retirement visa or whatever it is, but one day they'll clamp down on those as well - then perhaps you'll wish you weren't quite so gleeful about the struggles of the rest of us to stay here. Morons. Shameful

I believe they are cheering a ckrack-down of abuse of the ED-visa system, not a crack-down on ED-visas itself.

"Now any school found to be selling the Education visa simply to allow the foreigner to stay in Thailand and not attending the school will be closed down and lose their license. All of the school's students, whether attending or not, will have their visas cancelled," the representative of the Ministry of Education stated.

[Chonburiram]

.

Edited July 7, 2011 by Chonburiram

[kropotkin]

Well, we seem to have successfully got to the nub of the issue, having divided ourselves fairly neatly between two schools of thought:

1. The Illegals

I can do what I want so long as it doesn't affect you.

2. The Legals

If you're here, play by the bloody rules!

I doubt this thread is going to get much further than this impasse, but please someone wake me up if it does.

I think you've summed it up perfectly.

What the "illegals" do, DOES affect the others.

Why do you think immigration tightens the rules for everybody? Because they are fed up with the "illegals"!

In this very tread Walen promoted its russian course as a way to get an ED.

Walen, loopholes for all.