Even This National Disaster Is Being Used As A Political Weapon: Thai Opinion

[peterdk]

As I have previously noted there have been barefaced lies, now exposed, for example the US Navy's role and the security of key royal sites.

Where has it been stated, that the US Navy offering help and then been sent packing is a lie ?

Originally sources reporting this, was US Navy sources.

I'm not questioning you, just would like to see where and what was said to counter the US Navy statement.

[OzMick]

Well written and well reasoned piece. I'll be following him.

www.facebook.com/pavinchachavalpongpun

He went to Singapore - Bye!

[scorecard]

Khun Pavin, your intent is pretty clear, your veil is fairly transparent. I suggest most people would:

- Totally agree that Yingluck did not cause the floods (neither did the dems as some reds have tried to say), and yes the floods are much worse than other years, and yes all governments over the last 40 years (whatever years) should have done more to design and build infrastructure dedicated to relieving this annual problem. And somehow I doubt your claims:

“As dim as a buffalo! She's a bimbo, a brainless Barbie doll. The first female prime minister - who has brought all this bad luck upon the country!

This is what Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra is now called and labelled by her upper-class critics…..”

I have regular contact with senior people in this country, I asked whether your description is a fair representation of what (as you call them) “her upper-class critics” are saying. The response that I got was in essence ‘yes a few people say that but not most people’.

What you don’t mention at all is what the other Thai people (those who are not in the group you label as “her upper-class critics”) are saying about the lady. And it’s probably a broad profile: some say stupid, some say not her fault, some say ineffective, some say very ineffective, some say what can you expect given the people she is surrounded by (and not selected by her). And I suggest to you Khun Pavin that the comments from your 'upper-class critics' group would overall be pretty much the same profile.

Therefore I wonder whether this is just your veiled way of making a dig about the so called ‘elites’.

You say: “Could this be a part of a coordinated attack against Yingluck with the aim of destroying confidence in the government?”

Given the slow reactions, obvious lack of organization and coordination, statements made and withdrawn, statements including the science minister saying that FROC / the government is not telling the truth, plus the same guy came out with the unbelievable idea to build 10,000 bamboo rafts, I suggest to you Khun Pavin that the government have firmly themselves created a deep lack of confidence in their abilities, and any claims that the lack of confidence is solely the result of dirty politics is laughable and incorrect and divisive.

In some instances the Bangkok governor disagreed, and you label this clearly as just playing politics. Well he did had some good points, he is the governor, he is a senior official, he is entitled to an opinion, and he is entitled to express his opinion.

As you mention, the military got on with doing whatever they could and did it well, but you then turn this into a silly point about a ‘Water coup’. Your veil is very thin Khun Pavin.

Political games? Well perhaps you’d like to share your comments of the capabilities (or lack of capabilities and lack of suitability and past experience) in terms of the people selected for ministerial etc., positions in yinglucks government.

This would win awards for political games, but the sad part Khun Pavin is that all Thais suffer for the whims of one man. Current suffering including: loss of life, loss of loved ones and breadwinners, loss of homes and in many cases close to zero resources to rebuild, loss of all personal belongings, loss of, in many cases, the most simple of resources to survive, loss of jobs, trauma and panic in terms of trying to escape, being left for some time without water and food.

In fact Mr. Pavin I suggest you’re the person playing political games.

Edited October 26, 2011 by scorecard

[h90]

What a load of nonsense.

You can see where the author is coming from with the divisive "This is what Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra is now called and labelled by her upper-class critics."

This author is doing exactly what he accuses others of - using the issue to score political points and to further divide people into them & us.

Fortunately, the whole article is poorly executed.

It isn't nonsense. It is just direct out of the communist for dummies guidebook on how to change the story.

If the hero makes everything wrong you need to argue that really the capitalists "upper-class" are the evil and no one could have done better.

I think they have a complete script and just need to exchange the names and put in "fire, floods, crises...."

[OzMick]

She has my sympathy. There is nothing that can be done to stop the deluge that is befalling the country. Whatever could have been done, would never be done by politicians. Politicians simply lack the expertise and will to handle a natural disaster.

The true test will be the aftermath of the current disaster.

She is a lot stronger than I thought she was. The fact that she has continued to hang in there during these extremely stressful times is amazing.

I agree.Pavin's arguments are persuasive and reflect very poorly on Abhisit and Sukhumbhand.Many of the critical reports (eg the US navy issue) have been confirmed as outright lies.Clearly there has been lack of co-ordination but it's stretching credulity to believe the last government would have done better.Any reference made to the institutional problems in the Thai bureaucracy, poor long term planning or the forces of nature itself evoke screams of outrage.For some the only factor is Yingluck and (of course) her elder brother.These people believe that it is a failure not to put the army in control of the emergency (and much else) through a SOE, but it's completely unclear how this would improve co-ordination.The army should of course be fully involved and the relationship developed between Prayuth and Yingluck is of course ignored by the haters.

".Pavin's arguments are persuasive and reflect very poorly on Abhisit and Sukhumbhand."

Of course they do, that was the bloody point of the article, to spread the blame around. Persuasive? How is flood management a competition, aren't they aiming for the same goal? How does Abhisit "compete" by offering advice. He can't attack Sukhumbhand for doing his job, so he has a cheap shot at this religion (does it hurt the situation?) and for trying to avert panic being caused by the FROC idiots.

I really liked the shock-horror that there is BS on the social networking sites. Show me a day when there isn't.

[Bagwan]

I agree.Pavin's arguments are persuasive and reflect very poorly on Abhisit and Sukhumbhand.Many of the critical reports (eg the US navy issue) have been confirmed as outright lies.Clearly there has been lack of co-ordination but it's stretching credulity to believe the last government would have done better.Any reference made to the institutional problems in the Thai bureaucracy, poor long term planning or the forces of nature itself evoke screams of outrage.For some the only factor is Yingluck and (of course) her elder brother.These people believe that it is a failure not to put the army in control of the emergency (and much else) through a SOE, but it's completely unclear how this would improve co-ordination.The army should of course be fully involved and the relationship developed between Prayuth and Yingluck is of course ignored by the haters.

The USS George Washington aircraft carrier and other ships were deployed to the area on October 16 for potential disaster relief work as Thailand faced massive flooding from monsoon rains, said Navy spokesman Lieutenant Commander John Perkins.

But the US military never received a formal request from the Thai government and the three-ship aircraft carrier group along with a fourth ship, the USS Kidd, were released and left the area on Friday, said Perkins, spokesman for the US Pacific Fleet based in Hawaii.

"We are ready to help but we haven't got a request," said a US defense official, who spoke on condition of anonymity."There were two channels (in the Thai government)," the defense official told AFP. "One was saying 'Yes' and one was saying 'No.'"

So the USN got it all wrong? Who would you believe? The USN or any politician, particularly a Thai one?

[OzMick]

Khun Pavin, your intent is pretty clear, your veil is fairly transparent. I suggest most people would:

- Totally agree that Yingluck did not cause the floods (neither did the dems as some reds have tried to say), and yes the floods are much worse than other years, and yes all governments over the last 40 years (whatever years) should have done more to design and build infrastructure dedicated to relieving this annual problem. And somehow I doubt your claims:

“As dim as a buffalo! She's a bimbo, a brainless Barbie doll. The first female prime minister - who has brought all this bad luck upon the country!

This is what Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra is now called and labelled by her upper-class critics…..”

I have regular contact with senior people in this country, I asked whether your description is a fair representation of what (as you call them) “her upper-class critics” are saying. The response that I got was in essence ‘yes a few people say that but not most people’.

What you don’t mention at all is what the other Thai people (those who are not in the group you label as “her upper-class critics”) are saying about the lady. And it’s probably a broad profile: some say stupid, some say not her fault, some say ineffective, some say very ineffective, some say what can you expect given the people she is surrounded by (and not selected by her). And I suggest to you Khun Pavin that the comments from your 'upper-class critics' group would overall be pretty much the same profile.

Therefore I wonder whether this is just your veiled way of making a dig about the so called ‘elites’.

You say: “Could this be a part of a coordinated attack against Yingluck with the aim of destroying confidence in the government?”

Given the slow reactions, obvious lack of organization and coordination, statements made and withdrawn, statements including the science minister saying that FROC / the government is not telling the truth, plus the same guy came out with the unbelievable idea to build 10,000 bamboo rafts, I suggest to you Khun Pavin that the government have firmly themselves created a deep lack of confidence in their abilities, and any claims that the lack of confidence is solely the result of dirty politics is laughable and incorrect and divisive.

In some instances the Bangkok governor disagreed, and you label this clearly as just playing politics. Well he did had some good points, he is the governor, he is a senior official, he is entitled to an opinion, and he is entitled to express his opinion.

As you mention, the military got on with doing whatever they could and did it well, but you then turn this into a silly point about a ‘Water coup’. Your veil is very thin Khun Pavin.

Political games? Well perhaps you’d like to share your comments of the capabilities (or lack of capabilities and lack of suitability and past experience) in terms of the people selected for ministerial etc., positions in yinglucks government.

This would win awards for political games, but the sad part Khun Pavin is that all Thais suffer for the whims of one man. Current suffering including: loss of life, loss of loved ones and breadwinners, loss of homes and in many cases close to zero resources to rebuild, loss of all personal belongings, loss of, in many cases, the most simple of resources to survive, loss of jobs, trauma and panic in terms of trying to escape, being left for some time without water and food.

In fact Mr. Pavin I suggest you’re the person playing political games.

The score is on the board !

[serenitynow]

She has my sympathy. There is nothing that can be done to stop the deluge that is befalling the country. Whatever could have been done, would never be done by politicians. Politicians simply lack the expertise and will to handle a natural disaster.

The true test will be the aftermath of the current disaster.

She is a lot stronger than I thought she was. The fact that she has continued to hang in there during these extremely stressful times is amazing.

I agree.Pavin's arguments are persuasive and reflect very poorly on Abhisit and Sukhumbhand.Many of the critical reports (eg the US navy issue) have been confirmed as outright lies.Clearly there has been lack of co-ordination but it's stretching credulity to believe the last government would have done better.Any reference made to the institutional problems in the Thai bureaucracy, poor long term planning or the forces of nature itself evoke screams of outrage.For some the only factor is Yingluck and (of course) her elder brother.These people believe that it is a failure not to put the army in control of the emergency (and much else) through a SOE, but it's completely unclear how this would improve co-ordination.The army should of course be fully involved and the relationship developed between Prayuth and Yingluck is of course ignored by the haters.

Pavin is on the payroll and you of all people should know that.

Perhaps his ouvre gives a clue:

http://bookshop.iseas.edu.sg/ISEAS/Book.jsp?cSeriesCode=BM394&cCategoryType=

Edited October 26, 2011 by serenitynow

[scorecard]

She has my sympathy. There is nothing that can be done to stop the deluge that is befalling the country. Whatever could have been done, would never be done by politicians. Politicians simply lack the expertise and will to handle a natural disaster.

The true test will be the aftermath of the current disaster.

She is a lot stronger than I thought she was. The fact that she has continued to hang in there during these extremely stressful times is amazing.

I agree.Pavin's arguments are persuasive and reflect very poorly on Abhisit and Sukhumbhand.Many of the critical reports (eg the US navy issue) have been confirmed as outright lies.Clearly there has been lack of co-ordination but it's stretching credulity to believe the last government would have done better.Any reference made to the institutional problems in the Thai bureaucracy, poor long term planning or the forces of nature itself evoke screams of outrage.For some the only factor is Yingluck and (of course) her elder brother.These people believe that it is a failure not to put the army in control of the emergency (and much else) through a SOE, but it's completely unclear how this would improve co-ordination.The army should of course be fully involved and the relationship developed between Prayuth and Yingluck is of course ignored by the haters.

".Pavin's arguments are persuasive and reflect very poorly on Abhisit and Sukhumbhand."

Of course they do, that was the bloody point of the article, to spread the blame around. Persuasive? How is flood management a competition, aren't they aiming for the same goal? How does Abhisit "compete" by offering advice. He can't attack Sukhumbhand for doing his job, so he has a cheap shot at this religion (does it hurt the situation?) and for trying to avert panic being caused by the FROC idiots.

I really liked the shock-horror that there is BS on the social networking sites. Show me a day when there isn't.

And let's not forget that the puppeteer and his gang are all highly superstitious and believe in cleansing ceremonies etc.

Edited October 26, 2011 by scorecard

[jayboy]

Pavin is on the payroll and you of all people should know that.

Perhaps his ouvre gives a clue:

http://bookshop.iseas.edu.sg/ISEAS/Book.jsp?cSeriesCode=BM394&cCategoryType=

Interesting.In the same thread Pavin is accused of being a communist and now on Thaksin's payroll.Next I expect he will be accused of being a Mormon, any slur will do which avoids dealing with his arguments in a cool analytical way.

Anyway the link you provide to Pavin's book on Thaksin's foreign policy indicates you have not read the book concerned.I have, and it is highly critical of Thaksin.

[OzMick]

Pavin is on the payroll and you of all people should know that.

Perhaps his ouvre gives a clue:

http://bookshop.isea...4=

Interesting.In the same thread Pavin is accused of being a communist and now on Thaksin's payroll.Next I expect he will be accused of being a Mormon, any slur will do which avoids dealing with his arguments in a cool analytical way.

Anyway the link you provide to Pavin's book on Thaksin's foreign policy indicates you have not read the book concerned.I have, and it is highly critical of Thaksin.

Cool analysis? cool because you like it? still waiting for your analysis/comments/response?

[jayboy]

Cool analysis? cool because you like it? still waiting for your analysis/comments/response?

Response to what? I thought we were discussing the substance of Khun Pavin's article.

[serenitynow]

Pavin is on the payroll and you of all people should know that.

Perhaps his ouvre gives a clue:

http://bookshop.isea...4=

Interesting.In the same thread Pavin is accused of being a communist and now on Thaksin's payroll.Next I expect he will be accused of being a Mormon, any slur will do which avoids dealing with his arguments in a cool analytical way.

Anyway the link you provide to Pavin's book on Thaksin's foreign policy indicates you have not read the book concerned.I have, and it is highly critical of Thaksin.

I just knew you had.

[Oberkommando]

The Democrats have now admitted that former PM Abhisit flew off to the Maldives, throwing in the lie that it was a 'diplomatic visit' despite no record of it from official Maldive sources.

[Bakseedaa]

She has my sympathy. There is nothing that can be done to stop the deluge that is befalling the country. Whatever could have been done, would never be done by politicians. Politicians simply lack the expertise and will to handle a natural disaster.

The true test will be the aftermath of the current disaster.

She is a lot stronger than I thought she was. The fact that she has continued to hang in there during these extremely stressful times is amazing.

She has the Power...! stupid bitch..

[nurofiend]

The Democrats have now admitted that former PM Abhisit flew off to the Maldives, throwing in the lie that it was a 'diplomatic visit' despite no record of it from official Maldive sources.

people will just have to wait and see the evidence, but surely no matter what the reason was, a phone call/video link would have sufficed at this time of crisis!

some people think it's no big deal even if it was 'just a holiday'.

it's funny (and unsurprising) the kind of reaction this article is getting...

the one blue moon where it isn't a PTP/Yingluck/Thaksin/red shirt slating article certainly brings out the howling wolves...

[jonclark]

The Democrats have now admitted that former PM Abhisit flew off to the Maldives, throwing in the lie that it was a 'diplomatic visit' despite no record of it from official Maldive sources.

Badly timed, perhaps, but I'm sure you and I would both like to be able to evacuate to somewhere like the Maldives. But lets be honest he is FORMER PM, so the onus is no longer on him personally to fix the problem and as Taksin has demonstrated beautifully it is easy to orchestrate the 'pawns' from abroad. But nevertheless a show of solidarity with ordinary people would have been benificial in a crisis such as this.

[hanuman1]

Pavin is on the payroll and you of all people should know that.

Perhaps his ouvre gives a clue:

http://bookshop.iseas.edu.sg/ISEAS/Book.jsp?cSeriesCode=BM394&cCategoryType=

Interesting.In the same thread Pavin is accused of being a communist and now on Thaksin's payroll.Next I expect he will be accused of being a Mormon, any slur will do which avoids dealing with his arguments in a cool analytical way.

Anyway the link you provide to Pavin's book on Thaksin's foreign policy indicates you have not read the book concerned.I have, and it is highly critical of Thaksin.

Touche! Keep 'em honest, jayboy!

The underlying debate here is not about pro or anti Thaksin. It's about pro or anti 'BS'!

Edited October 26, 2011 by Scott
profanity edited out

[whybother]

The Democrats have now admitted that former PM Abhisit flew off to the Maldives, throwing in the lie that it was a 'diplomatic visit' despite no record of it from official Maldive sources.

Where did anyone say it was a diplomatic visit?

[scorecard]

Pavin is on the payroll and you of all people should know that.

Perhaps his ouvre gives a clue:

http://bookshop.iseas.edu.sg/ISEAS/Book.jsp?cSeriesCode=BM394&cCategoryType=

Interesting.In the same thread Pavin is accused of being a communist and now on Thaksin's payroll.Next I expect he will be accused of being a Mormon, any slur will do which avoids dealing with his arguments in a cool analytical way.

Anyway the link you provide to Pavin's book on Thaksin's foreign policy indicates you have not read the book concerned.I have, and it is highly critical of Thaksin.

Touche! Keep 'em honest, jayboy!

The underlying debate here is not about pro or anti Thaksin. It's about pro or anti 'bullshit'!

Have a look at Pavin being interviewed on Channel News Asia (Singapore based) numerous times during the serious problems last year. He is a serious thaksin supported, it comes through again and again in these interviews.

[whybother]

The underlying debate here is not about pro or anti Thaksin. It's about pro or anti 'BS'!

The article is BS. Are you pro or anti?

Edited October 26, 2011 by Scott
profanity edited out

[rangefinder]

She has my sympathy. There is nothing that can be done to stop the deluge that is befalling the country. Whatever could have been done, would never be done by politicians. Politicians simply lack the expertise and will to handle a natural disaster.

The true test will be the aftermath of the current disaster.

She is a lot stronger than I thought she was. The fact that she has continued to hang in there during these extremely stressful times is amazing.

Amazing??? What was the alternative?

And, don't forget as a long-time "clone" she doesn't think or feel much -so "hanging in" is easy - she will hang in until redeployed from afar.

[hammered]

She has my sympathy. There is nothing that can be done to stop the deluge that is befalling the country. Whatever could have been done, would never be done by politicians. Politicians simply lack the expertise and will to handle a natural disaster.

The true test will be the aftermath of the current disaster.

She is a lot stronger than I thought she was. The fact that she has continued to hang in there during these extremely stressful times is amazing.

Amazing??? What was the alternative?

And, don't forget as a long-time "clone" she doesn't think or feel much -so "hanging in" is easy - she will hang in until redeployed from afar.

Actually her government will be judged by the people at the next election in about 3 and half years time unless she decides to call an earlier one

[chaoyang]

It is my understanding that dams, irrigation and water management have been for many decades the favorite effort of an aspect that cannot be discussed.

Yinluck can hardly be blamed for torrential rains and a system that was developed long before she was elected.

There are frequent floods in Thailand. The difference is that Bangkokians have to endure it this time too.

All of these elements -- the facts, the flooding, the blame game -- do not bode well for Thailand's entire system of management, public discourse and future prospects.

[Scott]

Let's keep the debate civil and on the topic.

[serenitynow]

Pavin is on the payroll and you of all people should know that.

Perhaps his ouvre gives a clue:

http://bookshop.isea...4=

Interesting.In the same thread Pavin is accused of being a communist and now on Thaksin's payroll.Next I expect he will be accused of being a Mormon, any slur will do which avoids dealing with his arguments in a cool analytical way.

Anyway the link you provide to Pavin's book on Thaksin's foreign policy indicates you have not read the book concerned.I have, and it is highly critical of Thaksin.

Touche! Keep 'em honest, jayboy!

The underlying debate here is not about pro or anti Thaksin. It's about pro or anti 'bullshit'!

Right. I'm saying it's BS. Wasn't I clear enough for you?

Edited October 26, 2011 by Scott
profanity edited out

[whybother]

It is my understanding that dams, irrigation and water management have been for many decades the favorite effort of an aspect that cannot be discussed.

Yinluck can hardly be blamed for torrential rains and a system that was developed long before she was elected.

There are frequent floods in Thailand. The difference is that Bangkokians have to endure it this time too.

All of these elements -- the facts, the flooding, the blame game -- do not bode well for Thailand's entire system of management, public discourse and future prospects.

No one is blaming Yingluck for torrential rains and (lack of) systems. It's the lack of communication and lack of management that she is being blamed for.

[nurofiend]

Badly timed, perhaps, but I'm sure you and I would both like to be able to evacuate to somewhere like the Maldives. But lets be honest he is FORMER PM, so the onus is no longer on him personally to fix the problem and as Taksin has demonstrated beautifully it is easy to orchestrate the 'pawns' from abroad. But nevertheless a show of solidarity with ordinary people would have been benificial in a crisis such as this.

"But lets be honest he is FORMER PM, so the onus is no longer on him personally to fix the problem"

the only way this sentence is relevant is if you're suggesting it as a good enough reason/excuse for him to go

"a show of solidarity with ordinary people would have been benificial in a crisis such as this"

beneficial to whom? his image, the public?

maybe benefiting the country by helping out?

about the article, obviously he is biased... is that overriding the points he makes? you could argue that for some but not all.. does that then automatically make any point invalid? hell no

the nation is obviously biased but i don't suggest every point made is 'bs' because of this.

i'd like to see some of those who write off the whole article/writer with some insult/slur convincingly counter every point made in it.. or maybe i wouldn't tbh, there's only so much one can take lol

[heykki]

Now that we have Shinawatras controlling the country again, we can no longer criticize the government? No, I totally get that.

[nurofiend]

nail on head