UK pensions

[billd766]

2 hours ago, Oxx said:

 

It's not stealing.  It would only be stealing if the expats were entitled to an inflation-adjusted pension, but they are not, and the rules have been patently clear for decades.

 

Expats don't make purchases in the UK, so don't contribute back to the exchequer via VAT at 20%.  It's only fair they get less generous state pensions.

 

What is iniquitous is that pensioners living in some selected countries do get the inflation increases.  However, successive UK governments have been too lily-livered to treat all expats fairly and take away those anomalous increases.

 

Most pensioners also pay income tax on their pensions. I started off paying income tax in July 1959 when I started my first job at 15 years and 2 months old, and have paid income tax every year since then and will do until the day I die. I have NO choice in the matter.

 

quote "Expats don't make purchases in the UK, so don't contribute back to the exchequer via VAT at 20%.  It's only fair they get less generous state pensions."

 

Equally they don't get any benefits from not using the NHS or any other UK facilities and therefore are in effect saving the UK spending on them. So IMHO they government should work out the cost for the use of those facilities and give a rebate to those who do not use them. That is equally fair. By not spending money in the UK we are also not contributing the cost of imports either.

Edited March 24, 2018 by billd766

[billd766]

8 minutes ago, steve187 said:

its to do with  arrangements

 

 

Strangely enough arrangements can be altered or changed.

 

They are NOT commandments from a higher being, cast in stone.

[rockingrobin]

3 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

Most pensioners also pay income tax on their pensions. I started off paying income tax in July 1959 and have paid income tax every year since then and will do until the day I die. I have NO choice in the matter.

 

quote "Expats don't make purchases in the UK, so don't contribute back to the exchequer via VAT at 20%.  It's only fair they get less generous state pensions."

 

Equally they don't get any benefits from not using the NHS or any other UK facilities and therefore are in effect saving the UK spending on them. So IMHO they government should work out the cost for the use of those facilities and give a rebate to those who do not use them. That is equally fair. By not spending money in the UK we are also not contributing the cost of imports either.

The majority of pensioners would not be entitled to a rebate or even a state pension , if the government decided to adopt such a policy as above

[billd766]

2 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

The majority of pensioners would not be entitled to a rebate or even a state pension , if the government decided to adopt such a policy as above

 

But that would be the end of that government if they tried.

 

How would the government pay back all the payments taken and explain themselves to the electorate.

 

Remember that every person of working age has NI contributions deducted from their salary and have no choice about it.

[rockingrobin]

37 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

If you live on the US side of the Niagara falls you get the increase. If you you live a mile or so away in Canada, you don't. If you live in the US Virgin Islands you get the increase. If you live in the British Virgin islands then you don't.

 

Can you explain why British expats living in the Philippines (which is not part of the USA) can get the increase but those expats living in most Commonwealth countries cannot?

The difference between the US and Canada with regards UK pensions is  Canada only has a Double Contributions Convention , whereas the US is a full Social Security agreement

Edited March 24, 2018 by rockingrobin

[rockingrobin]

11 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

But that would be the end of that government if they tried.

 

How would the government pay back all the payments taken and explain themselves to the electorate.

 

Remember that every person of working age has NI contributions deducted from their salary and have no choice about it.

The payments taken are for existing pensioners, not a saving fund for the future

[sumrit]

3 hours ago, Oxx said:

 

It's not stealing.  It would only be stealing if the expats were entitled to an inflation-adjusted pension, but they are not, and the rules have been patently clear for decades.

 

Expats don't make purchases in the UK, so don't contribute back to the exchequer via VAT at 20%.  It's only fair they get less generous state pensions.

 

What is iniquitous is that pensioners living in some selected countries do get the inflation increases.  However, successive UK governments have been too lily-livered to treat all expats fairly and take away those anomalous increases.

 

With the greatest of respect, that's total B*****KS!

 

Most, if not all, pensioners spend 90% of their state pension on zero VAT rated essentials such as food/household items, clothing, housing costs, etc, etc. VAT from their remaining disposable income would be no more than a couple of pounds a week maximum.

[Orton Rd]

1 hour ago, sumrit said:

 

With the greatest of respect, that's total B*****KS!

 

Most, if not all, pensioners spend 90% of their state pension on zero VAT rated essentials such as food/household items, clothing, housing costs, etc, etc. VAT from their remaining disposable income would be no more than a couple of pounds a week maximum.

Fags and booze are taxed innit

[sumrit]

29 minutes ago, Orton Rd said:

Fags and booze are taxed innit

As a non smoking teetotaller I don't pay VAT on either of them, neither here in Thailand or the UK. :-)

[sumrit]

18 hours ago, Oxx said:

 

It's not stealing.  It would only be stealing if the expats were entitled to an inflation-adjusted pension, but they are not, and the rules have been patently clear for decades.

 

Expats don't make purchases in the UK, so don't contribute back to the exchequer via VAT at 20%.  It's only fair they get less generous state pensions.

 

What is iniquitous is that pensioners living in some selected countries do get the inflation increases.  However, successive UK governments have been too lily-livered to treat all expats fairly and take away those anomalous increases.

Everybody (I assume) is/would be against the idea of all tax being collected by taxing income alone because the less well-off would be severely penalized. As Governments needed to increase taxes, for that reason a form of taxing purchases was introduced.

 

The principal of VAT is that if people want to purchase anything they will pay tax in the form of VAT on those items.

 

 If however they choose not to buy anything they will NOT be penalized (TAXED) IN ANY WAY for making that decision.

 

For you to suggest that it’s OK for us to BE PENALIZED  by having our pensions frozen because we don’t pay enough VAT goes against the whole principal of the reason for VAT!!!!!!

 

I've read several excuses as to why our pensions are frozen but yours has got to be the worst!!

[evadgib]

From the consortium:

 

Dear ICBP supporter   It has been some time since I have been in touch with you regarding our campaign to unfreeze pensions. I hope you have been following us on our Facebook page or by checking our website  www.pensionjustice.org.   Let me explain our hopes for the Social Insurance Regulations which were tabled last week and which once again froze our pensions for another year. The Labour party had agreed to use a parliamentary procedure to “pray against” the freezing, but when it came to the bit, the government included the increasing of the Carer’s Allowance alongside the unfreezing of our pensions for the following year. Understandably, this meant that the Labour party could no longer “pray against” the unfreezing without also incurring the unintended freezing of the Carer’s Allowance.   The next strategic move for us requires some help from ALL our supporters. It ties into the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting (CHOGM) in London from 16-20th April. 95% of frozen pensioners are in the Commonwealth and we firmly believe that if 495,000 pensioners are unfrozen, the remaining 25,000 would then follow. We are absolutely not abandoning those who do not live in the Commonwealth, so if that is your situation, please bear with us, but we believe that this event is a very powerful opportunity for us.   So, please write to your UK MP and also Theresa May, your current local MP and your PM ( if you live in the Commonwealth), and let them know, in your own words why it is important that the issue of frozen pensions be discussed at CHOGM. Some useful email addresses are below.   If you tweet, watch Twitter and please tweet and retweet to those involved. Use the hashtag #CHOGM18 and also #Discrimination and #frozenpensions. I attach some Twitter addresses below.   I have already written to all the Heads of Government who will be at the meeting and urged them to ensure that the issue of frozen pensions is on the agenda at CHOGM. I have been underwhelmed by the responses I have received, so we need to keep up the pressure and to ensure there is lots of noise and  all delegates and MPs know of our issue and talk about it with a view to resolution. “Fairness” is one of the themes of CHOGM 2018.   In addition, we are hopeful that one of our ICBP directors will be a delegate at the CHOGM meetings themselves. We are preparing literature to be distributed and visual protests along the lines of “ Two Vans at CHOGM” with our message to delegates, politicians and the public at large during the days of  these very important Commonwealth meetings. Thank you,     Sheila Telford, Chair ICBP   www.pensionjustice.org   Email: mayt@parliament.uk   http://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/mps/find-your-mp-help/   Twitter: @Theresa_May @RoyalFamily @CHOGM2018 @HMTreasury @10DowningStreet @pensionjustice @CHOGMCEO  #CHOGM2018 #Discrimination #frozenpensions

[billd766]

1 hour ago, evadgib said:

From the consortium:

 

Dear ICBP supporter   It has been some time since I have been in touch with you regarding our campaign to unfreeze pensions. I hope you have been following us on our Facebook page or by checking our website  www.pensionjustice.org.   Let me explain our hopes for the Social Insurance Regulations which were tabled last week and which once again froze our pensions for another year. The Labour party had agreed to use a parliamentary procedure to “pray against” the freezing, but when it came to the bit, the government included the increasing of the Carer’s Allowance alongside the unfreezing of our pensions for the following year. Understandably, this meant that the Labour party could no longer “pray against” the unfreezing without also incurring the unintended freezing of the Carer’s Allowance.   The next strategic move for us requires some help from ALL our supporters. It ties into the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting (CHOGM) in London from 16-20th April. 95% of frozen pensioners are in the Commonwealth and we firmly believe that if 495,000 pensioners are unfrozen, the remaining 25,000 would then follow. We are absolutely not abandoning those who do not live in the Commonwealth, so if that is your situation, please bear with us, but we believe that this event is a very powerful opportunity for us.   So, please write to your UK MP and also Theresa May, your current local MP and your PM ( if you live in the Commonwealth), and let them know, in your own words why it is important that the issue of frozen pensions be discussed at CHOGM. Some useful email addresses are below.   If you tweet, watch Twitter and please tweet and retweet to those involved. Use the hashtag #CHOGM18 and also #Discrimination and #frozenpensions. I attach some Twitter addresses below.   I have already written to all the Heads of Government who will be at the meeting and urged them to ensure that the issue of frozen pensions is on the agenda at CHOGM. I have been underwhelmed by the responses I have received, so we need to keep up the pressure and to ensure there is lots of noise and  all delegates and MPs know of our issue and talk about it with a view to resolution. “Fairness” is one of the themes of CHOGM 2018.   In addition, we are hopeful that one of our ICBP directors will be a delegate at the CHOGM meetings themselves. We are preparing literature to be distributed and visual protests along the lines of “ Two Vans at CHOGM” with our message to delegates, politicians and the public at large during the days of  these very important Commonwealth meetings. Thank you,     Sheila Telford, Chair ICBP   www.pensionjustice.org   Email: mayt@parliament.uk   http://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/mps/find-your-mp-help/   Twitter: @Theresa_May @RoyalFamily @CHOGM2018 @HMTreasury @10DowningStreet @pensionjustice @CHOGMCEO  #CHOGM2018 #Discrimination #frozenpensions

 

 

Thank you.

 

You beat me to it as I was just going to post the same thing. 

[evadgib]

On 3/24/2018 at 1:54 PM, Oxx said:

 

It's not stealing.  It would only be stealing if the expats were entitled to an inflation-adjusted pension, but they are not, and the rules have been patently clear for decades.

 

Expats don't make purchases in the UK, so don't contribute back to the exchequer via VAT at 20%.  It's only fair they get less generous state pensions.

 

What is iniquitous is that pensioners living in some selected countries do get the inflation increases.  However, successive UK governments have been too lily-livered to treat all expats fairly and take away those anomalous increases.

- The rules were not clear before Carson and nor was there any daylight in NI contributions for any that later exercised their right to live elsewhere upon retirement.

- I maintain a UK account and make purchases from it regardless of my geographic location. VAT is deducted whether I like it or not.

 

Please stop and think before disrupting the board any further.

[evadgib]

http://www.yourmoney.com/retirement/65-debt-levels-rise/?utm_source=customsell&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ymon-20180321-1521650995

[rockingrobin]

5 hours ago, evadgib said:

- The rules were not clear before Carson and nor was there any daylight in NI contributions for any that later exercised their right to live elsewhere upon retirement.

- I maintain a UK account and make purchases from it regardless of my geographic location. VAT is deducted whether I like it or not.

 

Please stop and think before disrupting the board any further.

Where is the right to live elsewhere?

There is no right in UK law for the issue of passports. The state can bar anyone from leaving the country.

 

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

3 hours ago, rockingrobin said:

Where is the right to live elsewhere?

There is no right in UK law for the issue of passports. The state can bar anyone from leaving the country.

 

The right to live elsewhere is better expressed as the exercise of a  choice to live elsewhere. The fact that it is not expressed as a right is for reason that there are almost no restrictions preventing anyone from exercising that choice. The main exceptions are those who are the subject of arrest warrants or bail restrictions or prisoners in custody. Similarly, there is no right to the issue of a passport but in practice almost all applicants who meet the eligibility criteria will be successful except those who are the subject of arrest warrants, bail restrictions etc. Any decision to refuse a passport to an eligible applicant would be susceptible to an appeal which would likely succeed unless there were good grounds for the refusal. The State cannot simply refuse to issue a passport without any grounds for doing so.

Edited March 25, 2018 by Rajab Al Zarahni
Sentence error

[evadgib]

7 hours ago, rockingrobin said:

Where is the right to live elsewhere?

There is no right in UK law for the issue of passports. The state can bar anyone from leaving the country.

 

None of which has any bearing on the thread you have attempted to derail.

[p414]

we were conned right from the beginning..The labour government that was voted in after the war was the equivalent of a working man's club committee.The whitehall mandarins ran rings round them.

Churchill should have been P.M. He never forgot the debt owed to the working class.The N.I.S was/is a great scam.the 'contributions' were divided into 2 parts- Employees contribution  and Employers contribution' ???..any employer would count this cost when working out the salary paid for any job/position.He would also show this as 'loss' when the unions sought higher wages..In other words the employee is responsible for both contributions.Then the ceiling on contributions was at app. middle management level and higher earners paid no more.The average worker paid the vast majority into this scam.Had we been informed that this vast amount of money we had to pay in [mine was 44 years to qualify for full pension] would then be classed as a 'government benefit' nobody would have voted for it and the united working class after the war would have rioted in the streets..

[rockingrobin]

8 hours ago, Rajab Al Zarahni said:

The right to live elsewhere is better expressed as the exercise of a  choice to live elsewhere. The fact that it is not expressed as a right is for reason that there are almost no restrictions preventing anyone from exercising that choice. The main exceptions are those who are the subject of arrest warrants or bail restrictions or prisoners in custody. Similarly, there is no right to the issue of a passport but in practice almost all applicants who meet the eligibility criteria will be successful except those who are the subject of arrest warrants, bail restrictions etc. Any decision to refuse a passport to an eligible applicant would be susceptible to an appeal which would likely succeed unless there were good grounds for the refusal. The State cannot simply refuse to issue a passport without any grounds for doing so.

deleted

Edited March 26, 2018 by rockingrobin

[Jip99]

12 hours ago, rockingrobin said:

Where is the right to live elsewhere?

There is no right in UK law for the issue of passports. The state can bar anyone from leaving the country.

 

 

 

If it is as successful in stopping people leaving , as it is in preventing illegal entry, then that comment is meaningless.

[billd766]

9 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

Passports are issued by Royal Prerogative and thus lie outside the judiciary

 

That is odd.

 

I don't ever remember asking the Queen if I could have a passport and I got my first one in 1963.

[JoePai]

3 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

That is odd.

 

I don't ever remember asking the Queen if I could have a passport and I got my first one in 1963.

Don't rock the boat - be thankful She gave you one or She might ask for it back 

[nong38]

20 hours ago, evadgib said:

http://www.yourmoney.com/retirement/65-debt-levels-rise/?utm_source=customsell&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ymon-20180321-1521650995

I was not aware about the Commonwealth signing a non discrimination agreement, the UK really should read the small print before signing up, to ignore this agreement is to put us on a par with the French and the CAP.

[billd766]

6 hours ago, JoePai said:

Don't rock the boat - be thankful She gave you one or She might ask for it back 

 

She was my boss for 25 years when I was in the RAF.

[sandyf]

On 3/24/2018 at 1:54 PM, Oxx said:

 

It's not stealing.  It would only be stealing if the expats were entitled to an inflation-adjusted pension, but they are not, and the rules have been patently clear for decades.

 

Government policy may have been in place for decades, doesn't make it right

People were forced into an unwritten contract whereby you paid the pensioners of the day on the basis that you would be paid a pension by others in the future. How many 16 year olds were informed that their pension would be reduced if they failed to remain in the UK or would have been able to make other arrangements had they been informed.

It may not be 'stealing' in the traditional sense of the word but it was certainly theft by deception, at least Dick Turpin wore a mask.

[transam]

2 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Government policy may have been in place for decades, doesn't make it right

People were forced into an unwritten contract whereby you paid the pensioners of the day on the basis that you would be paid a pension by others in the future. How many 16 year olds were informed that their pension would be reduced if they failed to remain in the UK or would have been able to make other arrangements had they been informed.

It may not be 'stealing' in the traditional sense of the word but it was certainly theft by deception, at least Dick Turpin wore a mask.

Must admit that when I moved to LOS, well before retirement age, I didn't know about capped pensions, didn't even enter my head, nor my accountants...

[sandyf]

On 3/24/2018 at 1:54 PM, Oxx said:

 

Expats don't make purchases in the UK, so don't contribute back to the exchequer via VAT at 20%.  It's only fair they get less generous state pensions.

 

That is utter rubbish. Expats pay income tax and income tax and income tax is used to fund the state pension.

You think it's fair that expats that fund the state pension scheme to the same extent as UK residents are not entitled to the same level of benefit.

 

VAT is a side issue, any reduction in consumer spending would be more than offset by non use of services they are paying for with their income tax.

[transam]

5 minutes ago, sandyf said:

That is utter rubbish. Expats pay income tax and income tax and income tax is used to fund the state pension.

You think it's fair that expats that fund the state pension scheme to the same extent as UK residents are not entitled to the same level of benefit.

 

VAT is a side issue, any reduction in consumer spending would be more than offset by non use of services they are paying for with their income tax.

And he forgets that we could ALL move to the USA etc and get our pension upgraded..UK gov WILL pay us ALL..

[sandyf]

11 minutes ago, transam said:

Must admit that when I moved to LOS, well before retirement age, I didn't know about capped pensions, didn't even enter my head, nor my accountants...

I think it was about 30 years ago they introduced the option to contract out. This was the first time as far as I can remember there was any significant information put out regarding the state pension. Prior to that you had to do what they said.

People are much better informed these days and find it very easy to criticise

Edited March 27, 2018 by sandyf

[sandyf]

5 minutes ago, transam said:

And he forgets that we could ALL move to the USA etc and get our pension upgraded..UK gov WILL pay us ALL..

The UK government would go into meltdown if we all moved back to the UK, current net immigration figures would pale into insignificance