A Tribute To 2 Strokes

[BirdsandBooze]

The market killed two-strokes in Thailand. Most people buying bikes in Thailand are buying them as primary transpiration. Four-strokes are more reliable, cleaner and quieter.

I saw a graph about 10 years ago that showed market share of H, Y, K & S, they were all about even at first, then Honda introduced a little four-stroke and their market share skyrocketed to over 60% of the market in just a a few years.

Nah it was the EPA in the 70's & 80's

Honda introduced 4 strokes well before that.

I think the Honda Super cub came out in the 50's

I know as a kid (before 1970 ) I had many Honda 50 engines I moved from bike to bike.

They use to cost me about $35-$50 bucks back then

They had 3 speed semi-automatic trannies.

I actually think/hope 2 strokes may come back because they have now solved

the EPA problem & can keep oil out of the combustion & thereby the exhaust.

There's a lot of info online about modern 2 stroke development. You can even buy a modern direct injection kit to retro fit to your old carbed stroker that dramatically reduces emissions. Ford wanted to race a 2 stroke rally car that they'd developed but were prevented from doing so when the other manufacturers lobbied the sport's governing body. The Ford had an incredible power to weight ratio. Even though modern 2 stroke engines are as clean as 4 strokes manufacturers face a tough time getting them accepted because of pressure by the Green lobby who stick their fingers in their ears at the merest mention of 2 strokes. Hopefully, one day

[mania]

There's a lot of info online about modern 2 stroke development. You can even buy a modern direct injection kit to retro fit to your old carbed stroker that dramatically reduces emissions. Ford wanted to race a 2 stroke rally car that they'd developed but were prevented from doing so when the other manufacturers lobbied the sport's governing body. The Ford had an incredible power to weight ratio. Even though modern 2 stroke engines are as clean as 4 strokes manufacturers face a tough time getting them accepted because of pressure by the Green lobby who stick their fingers in their ears at the merest mention of 2 strokes. Hopefully, one day

For sure & some of it as you shown is quite interesting.

Here is one a couple years old that is quite interesting too.

The info from Orbital & info on the Aprilia was very good.

http://twostrokemoto...es-strike-back/

The green party started it in the 70"s & 80's & it just looked harder & harder.

Manufacturers had to make plans not just on the countries that had teh regs but the ones that

soon would.

So at first just 2 stroke street bikes went then dirt bikes & lastly scooters in Asia

Not because of strict regs in each area but because

Honda/ Big 4 etc make decisions at the top not at regional levels.

But also as you say today is different & they can run two strokes

very clean. I for one would love to see modern 2 strokes.

Edited December 8, 2012 by mania

[monty]

Most 2stroke r&d is being done in the marine industry.

Evinrude has a system making their engines extremely eco friendly, passing all American regulations...

Also used on Rotax engines...

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[VocalNeal]

Most 2stroke r&d is being done in the marine industry.

As it was explained to me 4-stroke outboards are too heavy. There is a large second hand market for the old 2-strokes at least in the low capacities. I can't remember the size but a strong guy and heft and carry a two-stroke motor but it takes two to move the same power 4 stroke. Also the transoms of some older boats cannot support the weight of a 4-stroke motor.

So it is no surprise that the marine industry is taking the lead. Those motors also run "loaded" so will burn cleaner than a bike or car engine which mostly runs partially loaded.

Edited December 8, 2012 by VocalNeal

[mania]

Great thread & I am digging the pictures some have posted.

I want to post some of the bikes I had but,I do not have them on computer.

So these are the bikes I had but not mine.

I was lucky to be racing in a time of great changes in 2 strokes & racing in general.

Big strides in weight reduction & suspension improvements.

In the early 70's I was a sponsored by Honda at the State level in

the USA. That in itself was great as I got free parts & dealer cost on bikes. But also this was the era that Honda changed MX

in a big way releasing their Elsinore Line. Really the first serious dirt bike Honda made.

Would you believe the CR125 weighed like 150 lbs & made as much horsepower stock as todays Honda 250cbr?

The 250 weighed just over 200 lbs & had around 30hp stock.

Both of these we tuned in an additional 30% or more on top of the stock figures

At the time it was so far ahead of the competition it made racing easy.

It literally seemed like an unfair advantage.

Here are examples of the 125's & 250's I raced

I later switched setup & raced Maico's for MX & Husqvarna for Enduro.

Big mistake on the Maico side even though I loved the bike.

If we thought the Keihin carbs on the Honda's were bad the Bing's on the Maico's

were far worse & the bike was just not as agile as the Honda,

Was also much more fussy suspension wise & overall just not as reliable. Although a rider named

Ake Johnsson rode them in a magical way.

He also authored the best MX book of that time

"The Technique of Moto-Cross" with techniques & ideas to improve your racing.

The coolest thing while racing a 250CR Husky was I got to do some enduro's with Malcolm Smith & listen to him tell stories

at night after the races. Super guy & if anyone remembers the movie On Any Sunday?

Here is a Maico & Husky but my Maico had the tilted forward shock setup same as shown on the Husky

I rarely touched 4 strokes when I was young as they were heavy,slow & pretty useless off road at the time.

Except when I was 12 years old & younger I had some Honda 50’s

Not until I was an adult did I start riding 4 strokes on the road mainly Honda's CBR600 & 900RR's

No pictures of those needed in a 2 stroke thread

Edited December 8, 2012 by mania

[Potosi]

Even though modern 2 stroke engines are as clean as 4 strokes manufacturers face a tough time getting them accepted because of pressure by the Green lobby who stick their fingers in their ears at the merest mention of 2 strokes. Hopefully, one day

Hopefully not. And it's not the treehugers who prevent them, but everymen who don't want to fall out of the bed when one of those bloody things passes our homes, and can be heard for a further mile. I don't think you want 2 stokes because they are clean, or cheaper, or simpler than 4 strokes, but you love the hell of a noise they make, and the revs.

[BirdsandBooze]

Even though modern 2 stroke engines are as clean as 4 strokes manufacturers face a tough time getting them accepted because of pressure by the Green lobby who stick their fingers in their ears at the merest mention of 2 strokes. Hopefully, one day

Hopefully not. And it's not the treehugers who prevent them, but everymen who don't want to fall out of the bed when one of those bloody things passes our homes, and can be heard for a further mile. I don't think you want 2 stokes because they are clean, or cheaper, or simpler than 4 strokes, but you love the hell of a noise they make, and the revs.

You think wrong, and obviously know sweet FA about modern 2 stroke engineering.

[monty]

Even though modern 2 stroke engines are as clean as 4 strokes manufacturers face a tough time getting them accepted because of pressure by the Green lobby who stick their fingers in their ears at the merest mention of 2 strokes. Hopefully, one day

Hopefully not. And it's not the treehugers who prevent them, but everymen who don't want to fall out of the bed when one of those bloody things passes our homes, and can be heard for a further mile. I don't think you want 2 stokes because they are clean, or cheaper, or simpler than 4 strokes, but you love the hell of a noise they make, and the revs.

Proper muffled 2 strokes are not noisy.

And 2 strokes don't take fidling with their exhausts lightly, as they are an integral part of the inlet/outlet cycle. Punching a hole for some extra "noise" will make you lose heaps of power.

Your average Harley biker will most likely be much louder!

But you are right on the thrill of the revving, feeling the engine come alive hitting the powerband, almost like a turbine, is indeed exhilarating...

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[monty]

Even though modern 2 stroke engines are as clean as 4 strokes manufacturers face a tough time getting them accepted because of pressure by the Green lobby who stick their fingers in their ears at the merest mention of 2 strokes. Hopefully, one day

Hopefully not. And it's not the treehugers who prevent them, but everymen who don't want to fall out of the bed when one of those bloody things passes our homes, and can be heard for a further mile. I don't think you want 2 stokes because they are clean, or cheaper, or simpler than 4 strokes, but you love the hell of a noise they make, and the revs.

Proper muffled 2 strokes are not noisy.

And 2 strokes don't take fidling with their exhausts lightly, as they are an integral part of the inlet/outlet cycle. Punching a hole for some extra "noise" will make you lose heaps of power.

Your average Harley biker will most likely be much louder!

But you are right on the thrill of the revving, feeling the engine come alive hitting the powerband, almost like a turbine, is indeed exhilarating...

Sent from my GT-I9001 using Thaivisa Connect App

[Neilly]

My post seems to bring back a lot of memories, nice sentiments and nice bikes!!

.

That Yamaha RD 350 LC sure was a nice bike.

After i had an accident with my CB400F and needed a new bike, i almost bought one, but a lot of people warned me about the "dangers" of that bike.

I listened and bought a XT 500 instead ( quite something else) problaly a wise descion ( being 19 with little bike experience it can be a dangerous bike)

Sorry to say, but you missed out, I was 19 when I got my first LC...what a bike! I was the first to get one around where I lived and the very first ones had a few problems, exhausts splitting, bad carb set-up (wouldn’t pull into the power band...you had to stamp the gears to get it in there) and few other niggles...but for pure grin factor it couldn’t be beaten, plus it used to walk all over many of the big four strokes as someone else mentioned. The second one I had ended up with some Allspeed cans on...oh so sweet

[Potosi]

Even though modern 2 stroke engines are as clean as 4 strokes manufacturers face a tough time getting them accepted because of pressure by the Green lobby who stick their fingers in their ears at the merest mention of 2 strokes. Hopefully, one day

Hopefully not. And it's not the treehugers who prevent them, but everymen who don't want to fall out of the bed when one of those bloody things passes our homes, and can be heard for a further mile. I don't think you want 2 stokes because they are clean, or cheaper, or simpler than 4 strokes, but you love the hell of a noise they make, and the revs.

Proper muffled 2 strokes are not noisy.

And 2 strokes don't take fidling with their exhausts lightly, as they are an integral part of the inlet/outlet cycle. Punching a hole for some extra "noise" will make you lose heaps of power.

Your average Harley biker will most likely be much louder!

I agree. I heard many times the term 'Harley-philosophy', and the philosophy of that maker is obviously to expose wealthy morons who don't give a shit about the fellow citizen. Anyway, 4 strokes produce torque, ideally at low revs. Electric engines produce even more of that, and I hope this is the future of motorized biking. Clean, silent, strong.

[tinfoilhat]

I'd love a nsr250 here in Thailand, totally impractical but a blast on Sunday mornings...

..and they overheat in traffic..

not even once in 10 years

Maybe for you, but mine has a radiator designed for a smaller engine! Or more correctly the engine is now bigger than original. Never bothered me until I moved to BKK but constant riding at less than say 40-50 kph, sitting for 3-4 minutes at traffic lights and up goes the temperature, until i switch the fan on.

then it is rather silly to maintain that they all overheat in traffic isnt it?

[VocalNeal]

then it is rather silly to maintain that they all overheat in traffic isnt it?

Not at all. An observant person may have noted the emoticon at the end. I understand that humuor is not a universal gift but please try.

[DickDastardly]

My old RD350 YPVS. Only sold it 6 years ago when I moved to Thailand. Nothing quite like a 2 smoke in the power band at full throttle.

[David006]

Grew up with 2 strokes, first bike was a NSU Quickly with no exhaust that I used to ride around the fields on, then BSA Bantam scrambler (fields again), then Gilera mopeds (when 16yr old)...then Suzuki GT250B...then RD350B...then brace of RD350LC's. Only got into 4 strokes when got into Enduro riding but the love is still there...even now I still cover the clutch lever with two fingers "just in case"

Same here. Started out with a Yamaha RD350 right after my 49cc moped youth

Probably the most exciting bike of it's age. Cheap, powerful and very light.

On twisty roads 750cc 4 strokers couldn't even begin to keep up, although they would quickly overtake on long straights.

And that all important kick in the behind powerband (well, lots of power but not much of a band), making lots of the uninitiated having their frontweel pointing to the clouds in the first two gears, or even end up wearing the bike as a hat

Do remember the incredible fuel thirst though, was barely getting 10 km to the liter, and on top of that the autolube...16 liter tank was lucky to get you 150 km! 100 km and you had to switch to reserve...

.

Ha ha ......NSU quickly.......me dad drove one for years......police bike with lever starter....actually my dream was a Greeves trail bike!

[mania]

Ha ha ......NSU quickly.......me dad drove one for years......police bike with lever starter....actually my dream was a Greeves trail bike!

Wow I had forgotten about Greeves

Greeves & AJS I rarely saw in the US but once in awhile.

[ClareQuilty]

Even though modern 2 stroke engines are as clean as 4 strokes manufacturers face a tough time getting them accepted because of pressure by the Green lobby who stick their fingers in their ears at the merest mention of 2 strokes. Hopefully, one day

Hopefully not. And it's not the treehugers who prevent them, but everymen who don't want to fall out of the bed when one of those bloody things passes our homes, and can be heard for a further mile. I don't think you want 2 stokes because they are clean, or cheaper, or simpler than 4 strokes, but you love the hell of a noise they make, and the revs.

Yeah, about half of my two strokes are noisy, but about half are not - it just depends on how you set them up. On the other hand, it is true that even the quieter ones aren't quite as quiet as some of the extremely quiet four strokes. Still, this is hardly a good enough reason to stick us all with boring, second-rate technology.

Edited December 9, 2012 by ClareQuilty

[Turkleton]

^^

@ClareQuilty, just for the case, you didn't read/understood the whole thread...

I think the people talk about "classic" 2-strokes, like the NSR 150/250, RD 350, NSU....etc.pp...

But not about the 3000 Baht crap, that would end on the "scrap-yard", if nobody (like "somebody") would buy save them...

Edited December 9, 2012 by Turkleton

[tinfoilhat]

then it is rather silly to maintain that they all overheat in traffic isnt it?

Not at all. An observant person may have noted the emoticon at the end. I understand that humuor is not a universal gift but please try.

thanks for pointing that out. i honestly was unaware that any amount of emoticons would make the remark funny.

but im laughing my guts out now.

really.

oh stop it please i cant breathe.

phew.

humuor [sic]

you cant beat it.

Edited December 9, 2012 by tinfoilhat

[cbuddha]

Yeah Clare, you spend too little money on your bikes to hang with the cool guys.... Jeez, I thought the point of this thread was to pay tribute to a common 2T bond and sharing nostalgia, but I guess some people just get off on making others feel crappy.

[rookball]

not an expert on street and sportbikes but been rebuilding and doing wood runs on yz125 and the old ktm200 egs for quite sometime, naturally im biased with the smokers. they are actually very reliable, never had one seized one me. swapping rings are a breeze than doing valve clearance the only thing about them are premixing and fouled plugs but once the jetting is right, its golden

here is my tzm150 over here

i actuallly bought the tzm after my ninja. a local dude was selling a one and i just had to buy it after a test ride. i actually felt bad about it, it makes my ninja feels like a really bad ride

originally the tzm was pretty much stock with missing side fairings and stuff. rebuilt it up from frame up, the funny thing is that the local shops up here in chiangmai had EVERYTHING in stock to rebuilt, from swingarm bearings and conrod but had to wait for the side fairings. in the end, i went for a fibre job

upon stripping, its a pleasant surprise for me actually. i never expect a deltabox frame since its a rather old bike and being made locally. and just like i expected, the engine itself is very similar to the yz125 just like wr200.

too bad im leaving chiangmai somewhere next year. had to farewell to this little monster soon

[cbrer]

^ I had an old TZM a few years ago here. Picked it up in okay nick but unfortunately left it to sit and die due to having no time for it and the electrics were fried. Sold it off amazingly cheap as it was just sitting there rotting.

Man do a I regret that now.

Now that I have time, energy and a little more knowledge I'd love to have it again as a little project thing.

What sorta speeds do you hit on it?

Edited December 9, 2012 by cbrer

[tinfoilhat]

not sure if people remember this thread, but if anyone wants a new TZM kon kean is the place to visit,

clare quilty (love the name btw) put another member on to this place a while back

truly a remarkable find.

[rookball]

^ I had an old TZM a few years ago here. Picked it up in okay nick but unfortunately left it to sit and die due to having no time for it and the electrics were fried. Sold it off amazingly cheap as it was just sitting there rotting.

Man do a I regret that now.

Now that I have time, energy and a little more knowledge I'd love to have it again as a little project thing.

What sorta speeds do you hit on it?

probably not the best person to answer this. never did it above 140. on the 6th gear and just after the valve fully opened at 6k rpm, its already at 130+.

[elliss]

Have to agree that there is something about two strokes which never quite leaves you. I often get the urge to try and locate the two-stroke bikes I used to ride as a teenager, both of which were powered by a Villiers 250cc two-stroke twin engine.

Being an apprentice, I couldn't afford much in the way of anything, so into the tank would go just about any mixture I could scrounge from my workplace (plus of course a little petrol) and that included gearbox oil from large trucks and molybdenum disulphide chain lubrication fluid!! Despite this horrible mixture, the engines went well enough, although they gave out very thick plumes of smoke and rarely got above 65 miles an hour which was more than enough to get me to and from my workplace.

However, as they say, nostalgia is a thing of the past and my little Honda Click does a great job for me now.

fond memories ,

i also had a 250 villiers twin , could be difficult starting from cold , plugs oiling up. mixtures were a bit of a hit n miss .

but when up and running it would burn off the old heavy plodders , matchies ajs enfields beezers etc.

now i plant my overweight frame on a reliable phantom , patiently waiting for the new edition .phantom.

maybe those old memories , were not that fond , after all .

Edited December 9, 2012 by elliss

[jcgodber]

Somewhere around 1963/64 I had a Tohatsu Runpet 50 cc CA-2. I was very young and this was my second bike (my first was a Whizzer Ambassador 50cc mounted on my Schwinn bicycle).

I met a Motorcycle mechanic that helped me “hop” the engine up. The first thing he did was cut the skirt of the piston way back. Then ran the engine with only 2 rings. We removed the head gasket and lapped the head to the block thus raising the compression ratio. We then installed a Honda 125 carburetor. Then I ran the thing using methanol and castor oil. The R.P.M. would get VERY high ( 12,00?)

I could get very high speed out of it like about 75 / 80 M.P.H. until the lower end finally gave out.

Thanks for helping remember some of the past,

Jim

[mania]

not sure if people remember this thread, but if anyone wants a new TZM kon kean is the place to visit,

clare quilty (love the name btw) put another member on to this place a while back

http://www.thaivisa....25#entry5027518

truly a remarkable find.

Wow that was a great thread that was!

What a find that was.

Thanks

Edited December 10, 2012 by mania

[xylophone]

It would appear that many of the posters here are not as old as yours truly!!! I say that because it my era the BSA Bantam was probably the most popular bike on the road, the Villiers 250cc two-stroke twin engine was used in such bikes as the Ambassador, Norman, Francis Barnett and I think a road version of the Greaves. The rivals were certainly the Ariel Arrow and its brother (can't remember the name now) and they were a little faster because they were designed for speed and I think the compression ratio was a little higher and perhaps had a shorter stroke???

The place to buy bikes was a company called Pride and Clarke in London and they advertised extensively.

In my time I had two different Ambassador twins, and at one time a Triumph 500 cc Speedtwin, and for me the two strokes won hands down. I agree with Elliss that they could be a bugger to start, however I found that they frequently had problems with the choke mechanism on the carburettor and when that was fixed, starting was pretty well two kicks on any morning.

Now here's a bit of nostalgia, in the early 60s, before I was eligible to get my licence, a couple of guys on the estate I lived on bought brand-new Hondas (CBR 250?? some of the first in the UK) and were proudly showing them off to all and sundry and I was absolutely amazed at these machines, ticking over silently, all nice and shiny, and very compact, whereas the guys driving the likes of the Triumphs, Matchless, AJS etc were looking on and stating that they were cheap Japanese sh@t and they wouldn't last.

As an onlooker I was able to see the irony in this because the guys on the UK built machines were sitting astride big clunkers, lots of timing chain rattle and just about everything else rattling, dripping oil all over the place and heavy to boot. Well those Hondas proved to be the downfall of the British motorcycle industry, and just a couple of years ago I was up in Phitsanulok when one of these Hondas appeared at a gas station and although it was a bit battered, it was still in good working order. so much for them not being able to last!!

As I recall, Norton did try and keep up with the new technology etc and introduced a 400 cc bike with electric start, which was a first for any UK bike. Lost track of things from there as decided to migrate from my trusty Ambassador after having a major accident when I hit a car, to a clapped out, rust ridden Mini, but that's another story!!

[VocalNeal]

The rivals were certainly the Ariel Arrow and its brother (can't remember the name now)

Well I'm not sure about your age but the answer you require from my equally old memory is Ariel Leader, the one with the two-tone paneling over the engine.

It wasn't two-stroke I don't think but the policeman in the neighboring village had a bike with hand gear shift. Perhaps you can help me with that one?

Most of my contemporaries declined Honda for Yamaha YDS2 or Suzuki Super-Six. Don't know the year of the Kawa 250 triple by none of them had that one. Also not forgetting the quick for the day Arthur Francis S-type 225 (father forbade motorcycles)

Not claiming to be older but you forgot the Scott Squirrel. Another two-stroke legend.

My all time favourite? Honda NS400R. A bit newer but never the less...... got a soft spot for the sound of three cylinder engines.

Edited December 10, 2012 by VocalNeal

[xylophone]

The rivals were certainly the Ariel Arrow and its brother (can't remember the name now)

Well I'm not sure about your age but the answer you require from my equally old memory is Ariel Leader, the one with the two-tone paneling over the engine.

It wasn't two-stroke I don't think but the policeman in the neighboring village had a bike with hand gear shift. Perhaps you can help me with that one?

Most of my contemporaries declined Honda for Yamaha YDS2 or Suzuki Super-Six. Don't know the year of the Kawa 250 triple by none of them had that one. Also not forgetting the quick for the day Arthur Francis S-type 225 (father forbade motorcycles)

Not claiming to be older but you forgot the Scott Squirrel. Another two-stroke legend.

My all time favourite? Honda NS400R. A bit newer but never the less...... got a soft spot for the sound of three cylinder engines.

You are quite right, it was the Ariel Leader and I thought it looked really smart with all of the panelling. It was a two-stroke engine, and I helped a friend of mine take his Arrow to pieces because it was notoriously bad at starting – – – actually it was so clapped-out it's a wonder it went at all.

Well if you remember the Scott Squirrel, then you may well be older than me (respectfully) as they were not really around in my day although I did see one once!!

The motorbike you are talking about that the policemen used to ride was a Velocette and I think it was about 200 cc, with a hand gearshift as you quite rightly say, and it also had little running boards and leg shields (with many fitted with a windshield) so it was ideal for the policeman doing his rounds.

it was a pity that the British motorcycle industry never saw the threat that these Japanese machines posed, and I seem to recall a Suzuki bike coming out which was a 2 stroke but with a separate oil feed?? and that really purred. The fact that these bikes could do the same speed that the old clunkers used to do was also quite amazing................ speaking of old clunkers, a friend of mine who was, shall we say diminutive in stature, had a 650cc AJS and it was so heavy and so much bigger than he could manage that as often as not, he would fall over with it while trying to put it on the stand.