Obama To Press Chinas Xi To Act Against Cyber Spying

[simple1]

Interesting demand by the USA considering their own surveillance of the world for 'security reasons'. Well known in Europe that industrial espionage is another objective of it, many cases of intellectual property stolen by US government agencies.

I am curious. What intellectual property rights has US government stolen recently. US with all of its faults, does try and protect intellectual property rights.

Some background info in the puiblic domain at following URL; not sure if Echelon is still operational or now been superceded by other information gathering/monitoring technolology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Controversy

[SinglePot]

and what are the chinese doing while we in the west are getting our knickers in a twist?

rubbing their hands and laughing.

[Scott]

Off-topic post deleted.

[Publicus]

The Boyz in Beijing continue their cyber offensive with a war of words spurred on by assistance from Edward Snowden. Beijing tries to obfuscate the fact and reality that they see cyber warfare as the key to winning a future war, which is why Prez Obama in 2009 founded the new US Cyber Command at the Pentagon.

China, US Continue “War of Words” on Cybersecurity

http://thediplomat.com/china-power/china-us-continue-war-of-words-on-cybersecurity/

[Sing_Sling]

Interesting demand by the USA considering their own surveillance of the world for 'security reasons'. Well known in Europe that industrial espionage is another objective of it, many cases of intellectual property stolen by US government agencies.

. . . and has been for quite a while . . . hypocrisy at best

Interesting demand by the USA considering their own surveillance of the world for 'security reasons'. Well known in Europe that industrial espionage is another objective of it, many cases of intellectual property stolen by US government agencies.

I am curious. What intellectual property rights has US government stolen recently. US with all of its faults, does try and protect intellectual property rights.

So, you're saying that there is no espionage on foreigners?

One may disagree with US policy, but it is well intentioned in the interests of national security.

China?

One may disagree with Chinese policy bit it is well 'intentioned' <sic> in the interests of national security

[SinglePot]

I repeat: what are the Chinese doing while the west gets its knickers in a twist?

[Scott]

Off-topic posts deleted.

[Publicus]

One cannot try to equate China and the West, the United States in particular. The two are opposites, not moral equivalents.

China has never had an Enlightenment, a Renaissance, a Scientific Revolution, an Industrial Revolution, the development of a Post Industrial society or an Age of Technology, Information Technology and an evolution into the realm of Human Rights Yet China, more than other big countries with a large population, needs these qualities more than any other form of civilization.

The West has a classic Liberal tradition that dates back to ancient Greece which is one of the four original ancient centers of civilization. China has never experienced the onset and development of parliamentary democracy, nor does China have the Judeo Christian traditions, customs, mores and values the West has.

China instead is another ancient center of civilization which has had only warlords, emperors, dynasties of emperors and now, as a republic, has a new dynasty of emperors in business suits, i.e., the CCP. China has a 5000 year continuous history of totalitarianism, authoritarianism, dictatorship. The Chinese have always regarded themselves, smugly and with great self-satisfaction, as the central kingdom which exists under the Mandate of Heaven, which is a terrible concept and reality given that the only way to this day to deal with their dictator leaders is violent rebellion instead of a parliamentary system and peaceful accountability of the government to its people.

Anyone who tries to equate China and the West is running a fool's errand, morally and philosophically as well as demonstrably over millennia. Given the CCP's active global ambitions the US and other Western democracies need to conduct surveillance over the 21st century fascist state with Chinese characteristics that the CCP-PRC is. Have you ever known a fascist state that was satisfied to exist within its own borders and not harbor ambitions to dominate, if not to rule and lord over the world?

Edited July 1, 2013 by Publicus

[SinglePot]

I agree with you Publicus.

Problem is Snowden has revealed activity that many people criticise.

Mr Obama is right in the middle of this bl**** mess.

He's also got the legacy of previous US history which opponents will use.

My points are these. War against terrorism is a new war. China are a new enemy given the emerging world economy.

My recommendation. Support Obama against both going forward.

US want to preserve democracy. China wants to do what Publicus has referred to.

We need to show solidity at this point in time.

In the era of too much information, hackable, accessible, pervertible, it is a very difficult job to preserve democracy as we have historically understood it.

Edited July 1, 2013 by SinglePot

[Publicus]

I agree with you Publicus.

Problem is Snowden has revealed activity that many people criticise.

Mr Obama is right in the middle of this bloody mess.

Difficult.

Ninety percent or more of the people of the US, or so I would estimate, haven't any problem or difficulty concerning the US government spying on the CCP-PRC. The same is true of Russia. It also applies to the Middle East and just about anywhere in the world.

Some people here try to make a stink about the US doing surveillance in Germany. Well, since the collapse of the Soviet Union, Germany, which killed 25 million Russian military and civilians in World War II, has taken great pains and strides to have the best possible diplomatic and economic relations with the Russian Federation.

Given Russia's siding with the CCP-PRC at the UN and in almost everything else against the US position or policies, gleaning info about the Russians by also conducting surveillance in Germany is prudent and, I'm certain, beneficial to the United States vis a vis Russia and the CCP. It's also helpful to the US to know what the Germans are up to concerning the Russians and the CCP-PRC.

[SinglePot]

Publicus

Please see my edited post which precedes your response.

I hear you.

[robblok]

I agree with you Publicus.

Problem is Snowden has revealed activity that many people criticise.

Mr Obama is right in the middle of this bloody mess.

Difficult.

Ninety percent or more of the people of the US, or so I would estimate, haven't any problem or difficulty concerning the US government spying on the CCP-PRC. The same is true of Russia. It also applies to the Middle East and just about anywhere in the world.

Some people here try to make a stink about the US doing surveillance in Germany. Well, since the collapse of the Soviet Union, Germany, which killed 25 million Russian military and civilians in World War II, has taken great pains and strides to have the best possible diplomatic and economic relations with the Russian Federation.

Given Russia's siding with the CCP-PRC at the UN and in almost everything else against the US position or policies, gleaning info about the Russians by also conducting surveillance in Germany is prudent and, I'm certain, beneficial to the United States vis a vis Russia and the CCP. It's also helpful to the US to know what the Germans are up to concerning the Russians and the CCP-PRC.

It is spying on an ally, Germany has been a good ally. The US with all its principles is just a little less bad as China but not much if it goes on like this.

So far I see the USA fighting everywhere and starting wars, haven't seen china doing that or even Russia for a while.

I am a fan of the USA but to act like they are an angel is crazy, they are just the lesser even.. just wonder for how long.

[SinglePot]

I don't see any evidence of US starting wars. Give examples.

How much do you know about China's intentions?

[robblok]

I don't see any evidence of US starting wars. Give examples.

How much do you know about China's intentions?

Irak, (no weapons of mass destruction it was all a hoax). The USA has invaded more foreign countries than China ore even Russia has that is for sure.

Indeed I don't know much about China's intentions but if you look at the country with the most foreign conflicts we do know who that is......

[SinglePot]

i

I don't see any evidence of US starting wars. Give examples.

How much do you know about China's intentions?

Irak, (no weapons of mass destruction it was all a hoax). The USA has invaded more foreign countries than China ore even Russia has that is for sure.

Indeed I don't know much about China's intentions but if you look at the country with the most foreign conflicts we do know who that is......

Mr Obama needs support. You don't talk like a fan.

[Publicus]

I agree with you Publicus.

Problem is Snowden has revealed activity that many people criticise.

Mr Obama is right in the middle of this bloody mess.

Difficult.

Ninety percent or more of the people of the US, or so I would estimate, haven't any problem or difficulty concerning the US government spying on the CCP-PRC. The same is true of Russia. It also applies to the Middle East and just about anywhere in the world.

Some people here try to make a stink about the US doing surveillance in Germany. Well, since the collapse of the Soviet Union, Germany, which killed 25 million Russian military and civilians in World War II, has taken great pains and strides to have the best possible diplomatic and economic relations with the Russian Federation.

Given Russia's siding with the CCP-PRC at the UN and in almost everything else against the US position or policies, gleaning info about the Russians by also conducting surveillance in Germany is prudent and, I'm certain, beneficial to the United States vis a vis Russia and the CCP. It's also helpful to the US to know what the Germans are up to concerning the Russians and the CCP-PRC.

It is spying on an ally, Germany has been a good ally. The US with all its principles is just a little less bad as China but not much if it goes on like this.

So far I see the USA fighting everywhere and starting wars, haven't seen china doing that or even Russia for a while.

I am a fan of the USA but to act like they are an angel is crazy, they are just the lesser even.. just wonder for how long.

I refer you to my Post #68 to this thread.

Your post seems to indicate to me that you didn't bother to read it. Reading it, or re-reading it with some thought, might help you and perhaps some others to sort matters out, become more clear headed, given some people suffer from a state of confusion and muddled thinking vis a vis the CCP-PRC vs the United States and the West in general.

Listen, in respect of government, everyone spies on everyone. Do you think the Germans don't spy on the US? Or that the French don't spy on the US? All any president of the US has to do to cause such governments to eat humble pie is to authorize release of the data and info of how our allies spy on the US.

Grow up.

Get a clear head.

[SinglePot]

..and all the time we are arguing with robblock....

[Sing_Sling]

It is spying on an ally, Germany has been a good ally. The US with all its principles is just a little less bad as China but not much if it goes on like this.

So far I see the USA fighting everywhere and starting wars, haven't seen china doing that or even Russia for a while.

I am a fan of the USA but to act like they are an angel is crazy, they are just the lesser even.. just wonder for how long.

Absolutely agree -

I don't see any evidence of US starting wars. Give examples.

How much do you know about China's intentions?

How utterly disingenuous . . . the US marched into Iraq, Vietnam, Afghanistan etc.. let's not even start with Central America

Grow up.

Get a clear head.

Mate, you are becoming more and more arrogant the longer you are here. I was disagreeing with someone who said that many can simply not be bothered responding to you, but now I am seeing it more often

Are you denying that the US has fought more wars than China and/or Russia in recent history?

As for spying on an ally - you find it amusing by responding that Germany does it as well . . . do you have proof? No? Conjecture? Yes.

[SinglePot]

well, looks like we are all agreed on this from robblock:

'I am a fan of the USA but to act like they are an angel is crazy, they are just the lesser even.. just wonder for how long.'

The lesser evil?

Yep. For how long?

You ain't seen nothing yet.

[midas]

well, looks like we are all agreed on this from robblock:

'I am a fan of the USA but to act like they are an angel is crazy, they are just the lesser even.. just wonder for how long.'

The lesser evil?

Yep. For how long?

You ain't seen nothing yet.

" The lesser evil? "

by whose standards?

[SinglePot]

good question Midas

Do you have any answers?

[robblok]

well, looks like we are all agreed on this from robblock:

'I am a fan of the USA but to act like they are an angel is crazy, they are just the lesser even.. just wonder for how long.'

The lesser evil?

Yep. For how long?

You ain't seen nothing yet.

Yes I meant to type the lesser evil.

And for how long.. that is debate-able I just hope there are no major wars in the future.

[SinglePot]

human race has never managed it in the past

Feeling lucky?

[robblok]

human race has never managed it in the past

Feeling lucky?

The more developed a nation get the more they have to loose the less likely they are to start a full scale war. It would be too much hardship, so yes I am feeling lucky.

[Publicus]

It is spying on an ally, Germany has been a good ally. The US with all its principles is just a little less bad as China but not much if it goes on like this.

So far I see the USA fighting everywhere and starting wars, haven't seen china doing that or even Russia for a while.

I am a fan of the USA but to act like they are an angel is crazy, they are just the lesser even.. just wonder for how long.

Absolutely agree -

I don't see any evidence of US starting wars. Give examples.

How much do you know about China's intentions?

How utterly disingenuous . . . the US marched into Iraq, Vietnam, Afghanistan etc.. let's not even start with Central America

Grow up.

Get a clear head.

Mate, you are becoming more and more arrogant the longer you are here. I was disagreeing with someone who said that many can simply not be bothered responding to you, but now I am seeing it more often

Are you denying that the US has fought more wars than China and/or Russia in recent history?

As for spying on an ally - you find it amusing by responding that Germany does it as well . . . do you have proof? No? Conjecture? Yes.

Ask and ye shall receive. I'm satisfied to be able to accommodate your request for proof that Germany spies against the United States.

Other US allies spy on the United States. However, I'm not going to do all your necessary research for you. The research I undertake to respond to your request, and to requests of other posters in other matters, is time consuming, requires patience and diligence. If a lawyer did this at your request, you'd have to sign a contract and you'd sustain a big hit to your bank account.

Some people call competence and dedication arrogance. That would be their problem, not mine. No one likes to be shot down, if that's how some regard being fairly and conscientiously rebutted.

Germany Spies on Americans, Too

http://spytalkblog.blogspot.com/2011/10/germany-spies-on-americans-too.html

Analysis: United States and Germany spy on each other

http://intelnews.org/2011/10/26/01-853/

Germany also profits from US, British spying

http://www.dw.de/germany-also-profits-from-us-british-spying/a-16916837

New law allows German investigators access to PIN and passwords

http://www.dw.de/new-law-allows-german-investigators-access-to-pin-and-passwords/a-16916923

[Scott]

Please stay on-topic.

[Publicus]

Yeah, there's no question Snowden's only just begun. Snowden is harming the United States domestically and abroad, and is harming US allies throughout the world. Beijing and Moscow love this, as does Tehran and Caracas et al.

Snowden is an irresponsible flake, a babe in the woods. Either that or Snowden is just flat out an enemy of the United States. Probably both.

Australia fears Asia backlash over PRISM surveillance revelations

http://intelnews.org/2013/06/26/01-1287/

Snowden leaks may embarrass Canberra

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/snowden-leaks-may-embarrass-canberra-20130625-2ov4l.html

[SinglePot]

chill Publicus. check the Snowden thread

[SinglePot]

human race has never managed it in the past

Feeling lucky?

The more developed a nation get the more they have to loose the less likely they are to start a full scale war. It would be too much hardship, so yes I am feeling lucky.

That's why Beijing are getting twitchy about North Korea.

[lannarebirth]

I agree with you Publicus.

Problem is Snowden has revealed activity that many people criticise.

Mr Obama is right in the middle of this bl**** mess.

He's also got the legacy of previous US history which opponents will use.

My points are these. War against terrorism is a new war. China are a new enemy given the emerging world economy.

My recommendation. Support Obama against both going forward.

US want to preserve democracy. China wants to do what Publicus has referred to.

We need to show solidity at this point in time.

In the era of too much information, hackable, accessible, pervertible, it is a very difficult job to preserve democracy as we have historically understood it.

I read this post and immediately searched for the "dislike" button. It's gone. That's what your new democracy looks like too. BTW, could you name some of the terrorist acts perpetrated on the US by China? Just a short list will do.