Here we go, light the fuse and retire to a safe distance.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/religious-people-are-less-intelligent-than-atheists-analysis-of-over-63-scientific-studies-stretching-back-over-decades-concludes-8758046.html

Like most generalisations, this is merely silly. I shall not lose any sleep over it!

But you may see, the atheists in our midst will love it.

Like most generalisations, this is merely silly. I shall not lose any sleep over it!

But you may see, the atheists in our midst will love it.

Forgive me if you think I'm trolling, there is a point here. Of course there are people who are both religious and geniuses, likewise there are some atheists who are dunces. What intrigues me is why the studies support the conclusion in the OP. To my mind seeing as there is no proof of the validity of any religion those who follow one take their dictates as a matter of faith. Perhaps taking things on faith gives the mind less practice at coming to conclusions based on objective evidence and such lack of practice has some bearing on intelligence. You could of course broaden the conclusion of the studies and explore whether followers of any particular ideology are on average less intelligent than those who have none. Or to use the following quotation.

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.

Lucius Annaeus Seneca

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/l/luciusanna118600.html#A80D9kM9EtcuXDlb.99

Like most generalisations, this is merely silly. I shall not lose any sleep over it!

But you may see, the atheists in our midst will love it.

Why would atheists love it?

Aye, the is no question I will be well acquainted with much of the research and none of it points to a negative or positive correlation between religiosity and intelligence by way of causality. Without causality it is of no practical value.

Do atheists have a brain? I know an atheist. I've never seen his brain, touched it, felt it, so it takes faith to believe he has a brain. I've seen no empirical evidence of his brain. Or maybe he doesn't have one.

Do atheists have a brain? I know an atheist. I've never seen his brain, touched it, felt it, so it takes faith to believe he has a brain. I've seen no empirical evidence of his brain. Or maybe he doesn't have one.

Most atheists vote Democratic Party. Does this answer your question about the brain?

What intrigues me is why the studies support the conclusion in the OP.

I'm yet to be convinced that they do support the conclusion and I personally doubt it. That is not to say 'Religious people are less intelligent than atheists' is or is not true but that there is not enough relevant data either way.

To my mind seeing as there is no proof of the validity of any religion those who follow one take their dictates as a matter of faith. Perhaps taking things on faith gives the mind less practice at coming to conclusions based on objective evidence and such lack of practice has some bearing on intelligence.

Practice? In all my born days I have never heard of anyone suggesting such a thing. In light of this I shall consider the idea and see where it takes me.

You average 'Joe' theist or 'Joe' atheist does pretty much the same thing most of the time for the same reasons. There is said to be some 6000 gods past and present. Both theist and atheist have rejected the claims of 5999 of them so the difference is just 1 god. Both buy houses for the same reason and both go about their daily life doing much the same thing.

It seems to me that what you are suggesting is that there is a spill over or bleeding over, of just this single difference, into other aspects of a theist's life? If you are, then avoid the slippery slope.

In logic and critical thinking, a slippery slope is an informal fallacy. A slippery slope argument states that a relatively small first step leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant effect, much like an object given a small push over the edge of a slope sliding all the way to the bottom. The strength of such an argument depends on the warrant, i.e. whether or not one can demonstrate a process which leads to the significant effect. The fallacious sense of "slippery slope" is often used synonymously with continuum fallacy, in that it ignores the possibility of middle ground and assumes a discrete transition from category A to category B. Modern usage avoids the fallacy by acknowledging the possibility of this middle ground.

Beliefs inform actions, knowledge is a subset of belief. In this regard, an action could be undertaken for and by belief alone, which is exemplified by faith, it is also exemplified by choice of house and even what we want for breakfast. It's part of who we are (to believe without reason) but that says nothing about the validity of the belief and this could become an issue. This where the fun starts because people don't like it. Why?

There is no doubt in mind that religious belief or lack thereof is the most important issue that needs to addressed and will continue to remain so until we either blow each other to smithereens or stop fighting. It would be in the best interests of our species to use our God given ability to discern right from wrong but the theistic members of the population (not all) reject investigation on the grounds of it being a faith. Is that a spillover or just middle ground? A defence mechanism IMO but to me that is not the issue.

The issue for me is because it has the potential to cause serious harm (as do many things), we can look into this potential harm but we choose not to. We could find it's all true or we could find it's just in our makeup or we could find something else. Shouldn't we investigate? Spillover IMO and also defence mechanism. The demographics of religious belief should alone, in all honesty, be enough to force our species into action but it doesn't.

To get firmly back on topic. If it WERE proven that religious belief resulted in lower intelligence, so what? There is no reason to think anything will be done about it is there?

It can be assumed that a person bent on questioning everything in general,

also think harder before saying 'oh well if you say so'/ 'oh well if the bible say so'

Do atheists have a brain? I know an atheist. I've never seen his brain, touched it, felt it, so it takes faith to believe he has a brain. I've seen no empirical evidence of his brain. Or maybe he doesn't have one.

Most atheists vote Democratic Party. Does this answer your question about the brain?

I think you will find it is on the basis of least worst. US politics are such that the right is so far right that it leaves space for another large party to be on the left yet still right of centre.

Depends on your concept of 'centre' in politics.

Obviously ...

??? Question Authority ???

Well at least we know that those suffering from GFE (Group Focused Enmity), namely those intolerant or worse in relation to certain group and are thus anti-immigration, anti-Semitic, anti-muslim, homophobic, sexist or racist, are markedly less well educated than more tolerant people.

See page 84 of this excellent report, surprisingly highlighted by the original poster...

http://library.fes.de/pdf-files/do/07908-20110311.pdf

It also seems to help being old, poor and feeling powerless and isolated.

Thus you don't have to be ignorant to be religious or not, but if you are a bigot being dumb really helps.

Well at least we know that those suffering from GFE (Group Focused Enmity), namely those intolerant or worse in relation to certain group and are thus anti-immigration, anti-Semitic, anti-muslim, homophobic, sexist or racist, are markedly less well educated than more tolerant people.

See page 84 of this excellent report, surprisingly highlighted by the original poster...

http://library.fes.de/pdf-files/do/07908-20110311.pdf

It also seems to help being old, poor and feeling powerless and isolated.

Thus you don't have to be ignorant to be religious or not, but if you are a bigot being dumb really helps.

Still nothing proven on causality.

Member IB suggested that atheists such as I would be happy if causality were to be proven without any indication as to why. I would be sad because of all the years of dumbing down kids , it would and should bring a tear to the most heartless. Even more that we had every reason to at least look seriously into it but chose not to. Nobody wins, nobody walks away smiling.

Thus you don't have to be ignorant to be religious or not, but if you are a bigot being dumb really helps.

Uneducated, not dumb.

Depends on your concept of 'centre' in politics.

Obviously ...

The appearance of the shoe which fits the left foot is meaningless when you only have two shoes which fit the right foot.

Well at least we know that those suffering from GFE (Group Focused Enmity), namely those intolerant or worse in relation to certain group and are thus anti-immigration, anti-Semitic, anti-muslim, homophobic, sexist or racist, are markedly less well educated than more tolerant people.

See page 84 of this excellent report, surprisingly highlighted by the original poster...

http://library.fes.de/pdf-files/do/07908-20110311.pdf

It also seems to help being old, poor and feeling powerless and isolated.

Thus you don't have to be ignorant to be religious or not, but if you are a bigot being dumb really helps.

I wasn't going to single out any particular religion, but coming to think of it when it comes to anti-semitism, misogyny, homophobia and racism you get no bigger culprits than the religion of peace. Of course their views on education for women speak volumes as does their indoctrination in hate from cradle to grave. Of course this has a large bearing on IQ, as you would expect, indeed one time hero of the left Richard Dawkins could do no wrong by them when attacking Catholicism, but when he recently tweeted that Cambridge had produced more Nobel prizes than Islam and that the latter had achieved nothing since the Middle Ages he was rounded on by irate leftist a calling him a bigot and racist, even though their pea sized brains still can't grasp the fact that Islam is not a race.

Well at least we know that those suffering from GFE (Group Focused Enmity), namely those intolerant or worse in relation to certain group and are thus anti-immigration, anti-Semitic, anti-muslim, homophobic, sexist or racist, are markedly less well educated than more tolerant people.

See page 84 of this excellent report, surprisingly highlighted by the original poster...

http://library.fes.de/pdf-files/do/07908-20110311.pdf

It also seems to help being old, poor and feeling powerless and isolated.

Thus you don't have to be ignorant to be religious or not, but if you are a bigot being dumb really helps.

I wasn't going to single out any particular religion

Heaven forbid you would even consider doing such a thing....

At least it's tediously predictable. GFE at its finest.

Well at least we know that those suffering from GFE (Group Focused Enmity), namely those intolerant or worse in relation to certain group and are thus anti-immigration, anti-Semitic, anti-muslim, homophobic, sexist or racist, are markedly less well educated than more tolerant people.

See page 84 of this excellent report, surprisingly highlighted by the original poster...

http://library.fes.de/pdf-files/do/07908-20110311.pdf

It also seems to help being old, poor and feeling powerless and isolated.

Thus you don't have to be ignorant to be religious or not, but if you are a bigot being dumb really helps.

I wasn't going to single out any particular religion

Heaven forbid you would even consider doing such a thing....

At least it's tediously predictable. GFE at its finest.

I see you resort to using emoticons instead of trying to refute my assertion. Of course truth has no value whatsoever among leftist ideologues.

Well at least we know that those suffering from GFE (Group Focused Enmity), namely those intolerant or worse in relation to certain group and are thus anti-immigration, anti-Semitic, anti-muslim, homophobic, sexist or racist, are markedly less well educated than more tolerant people.

See page 84 of this excellent report, surprisingly highlighted by the original poster...

http://library.fes.de/pdf-files/do/07908-20110311.pdf

It also seems to help being old, poor and feeling powerless and isolated.

Thus you don't have to be ignorant to be religious or not, but if you are a bigot being dumb really helps.

I wasn't going to single out any particular religion

Heaven forbid you would even consider doing such a thing....

At least it's tediously predictable. GFE at its finest.

I see you resort to using emoticons instead of trying to refute my assertion. Of course truth has no value whatsoever among leftist ideologues.

Which "truth" is missed by those who disagree (sorry "leftist ideologues" ​ ) with your GFE. Can't wait to be enlightened, oh great one.

Sorry Folium, work on your own GFE against your own culture and nation first.

Sorry Folium, work on your own GFE against your own culture and nation first.

Pray enlighten us on what you have done for your nation or culture (whatever they may be), apart from doing impersonations of Alf Garnett.

Unlike you, I am free of enmity against any group, apart from extremists of any ilk and their odious cheerleaders.

I'm sure you have more to offer TVF than just predictable and over-wrought anti-Islamic rants ( plus venting about Obama, but then you probably think he's a muslim),give it a try!

Sorry Folium, work on your own GFE against your own culture and nation first.

Pray enlighten us on what you have done for your nation or culture (whatever they may be), apart from doing impersonations of Alf Garnett.

Unlike you, I am free of enmity against any group, apart from extremists of any ilk and their odious cheerleaders.

I'm sure you have more to offer TVF than just predictable and over-wrought anti-Islamic rants ( plus venting about Obama, but then you probably think he's a muslim),give it a try!

There is little point debating anything with you seeing as your pathological and misplaced sense of moral superiority clouds your reason, and is very irritating to boot. Let's just say I'm intolerant towards the intolerant, whereas you are intolerant to those who are intolerant of the intolerant. I have the guts to call out those who are evil and criminal, you cover for them but disguise your motives behind a veil of false humanism and set menu group think that sadly the modern day liberal left are so afflicted by. Please feel free to have the last word as I can see just how important that is to you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

I wasn't going to single out any particular religion, but coming to think of it when it comes to anti-semitism, misogyny, homophobia and racism you get no bigger culprits than the religion of peace. Of course their views on education for women speak volumes as does their indoctrination in hate from cradle to grave. Of course this has a large bearing on IQ, as you would expect, indeed one time hero of the left Richard Dawkins could do no wrong by them when attacking Catholicism, but when he recently tweeted that Cambridge had produced more Nobel prizes than Islam and that the latter had achieved nothing since the Middle Ages he was rounded on by irate leftist a calling him a bigot and racist, even though their pea sized brains still can't grasp the fact that Islam is not a race.

We owe a great debt to Islam for conquering what was Persia and thus picking up on the knowledge emanating from the Indian/Chinese regions and developing this knowledge. The use of 'zero' symbolism in mathematics, the giant leaps in physics and chemistry, medicine and algebra all sprang from the invasion of Persia and the assimilation of the great Persian scholars into the Muslim hegemony, rather than the slaughter of them, as would have happened under Christianity at that period, meant the greatest improvement in scientific knowledge that has ever occured in the Western world. Unfortunately the Nobel prizes, founded upon the invention of the cause of the greatest number of explosions ever thought of, were not available at that time.

As far as i know, the chemistry was more of the fire/water/earth lines,

but the introduction of 0 and the disposition system was indeed a major step in math.

Sorry Folium, work on your own GFE against your own culture and nation first.

Pray enlighten us on what you have done for your nation or culture (whatever they may be), apart from doing impersonations of Alf Garnett.

Unlike you, I am free of enmity against any group, apart from extremists of any ilk and their odious cheerleaders.

I'm sure you have more to offer TVF than just predictable and over-wrought anti-Islamic rants ( plus venting about Obama, but then you probably think he's a muslim),give it a try!

There is little point debating anything with you seeing as your pathological and misplaced sense of moral superiority clouds your reason, and is very irritating to boot. Let's just say I'm intolerant towards the intolerant, whereas you are intolerant to those who are intolerant of the intolerant. I have the guts to call out those who are evil and criminal, you cover for them but disguise your motives behind a veil of false humanism and set menu group think that sadly the modern day liberal left are so afflicted by. Please feel free to have the last word as I can see just how important that is to you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

You claim to "have the guts to call out those who are evil and criminal".

Such a claim is only valid if those you deem to be evil and criminal just happen to be Muslim. The posts about Burma and Sri Lanka re the rising tide of Buddhist extremism highlight your immediate inclination to excuse those who victimise Muslims ( plus Christians and Hindus) and that it is all due to a series of bomb attacks in India on 7 July this year, as if Sinhalese extremism only began 5 weeks ago (surprised you didn't excuse the Rohingya ethnic cleansing on the same bomb attacks but I suppose the timeline is even more obviously unconnected). Ironically the Indian police have just arrested some Hindus in connection with these bombings. Claims of existential threats to majority populations by the dreaded Muslims have no demographic support be they in Burma, Sri Lanka or Western Europe, by why let facts get in the way of an agenda.

You claim that I cover for those who are evil and criminal and that I disguise my motives for doing so. Feel free to provide a single quote or piece of evidence where I have covered for such extremist scum. You have demonstrated your penchant for the extremist element with your support for the EDL and BFP and your inability to criticise extremists who happen not to be Muslim.

I love your reference to those who disagree with your views as leftist, liberals etc. Actually I personally take this as a great compliment, and a great relief, implying I have views and opinions that are more liberal and to the left of yours. But to most normal people I would hardly be viewed as a leftist in any shape or form. I suppose it all depends on where you start from.

When you started this thread it was so obvious what you were hoping to achieve and when no one did your dirty work for you by saying that Islam only works if you are an ignoramus etc, you had to step in and start the whole Islam-bashing that you so adore.

The world is not solely one dimensional, and on the question of being irritating I am sure that many other posters get tired of the whole anti-Islam angle that at some stage almost every post gets infected with.

When you started this thread it was so obvious what you were hoping to achieve and when no one did your dirty work for you by saying that Islam only works if you are an ignoramus etc, you had to step in and start the whole Islam-bashing that you so adore.

show me one thread in Thaivisa Islam/Muslims/Palestinians/Sharia related were the Right Honourable Sir Steely Dan, Esq., does not participate presenting negative comments.

Negative comments? Now that is the pot calling the kettle black.

Negative comments? Now that is the pot calling the kettle black.

That's as maybe but the actual comment is far from incorrect.

And as the self-confessed MA liberal that you are we look forward to more uplifting posts......

I don't think that Naam has made a positive comment In OTB since it started and I am a self-confessed former liberal. The 60s are long gone.

I don't think that Naam has made a positive comment In OTB since it started and I am a self-confessed former liberal. The 60s are long gone.

Never heard of retro? You are back in fashion in your previous incarnation...!