PhD in physics and maths........

A well qualified historian, then!

Found a brief

BILL FRENCH

ORGANIZATION Heads the for-profit Center for the Study of Political Islam in Nashville.

CREDENTIALS Former Tennessee State University physics professor; author of Sharia Law for Non-Muslims (2010; under the pen name Bill Warner).

SUMMARY French has no formal training or background in law, Islam or Shariah law — which in any case is not an established legal code, as the book title implies, but a fluid concept subject to a wide range of interpretations and applications. He garnered attention recently by leading the opposition to a proposed mosque in Murfreesboro, Tenn.

(7by7 emphasis)

I see the frantic search to discredit a source of uncomfortable facts has ended, thus rendering said facts to have magically never happened, or at least rendered the liberal cranium impervious to them. I do understand going off reservation is as terrifying to the modern progressive as a candid interview with Western media would have been to an East German at the height of the cold war. Thus we have a Pavlovian rush to source police to avoid dangerous thoughts, recently Stephen Fry found out exactly what happens to those who do think out of the box, even if they are Liberals.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/news/stephen-fry-hits-back-at-accusations-of-islamophobia-8793025.html

Stephen Fry has spoken of his frustration at being labelled an "Islamophobe" for criticising the violent acts committed by some Islamists.In a strongly worded blog post, the actor and comedian lamented that the "squeezed liberal finds himself in the position that he cannot criticise Islamofascism because it's somehow 'racist'".He continued: "It is a topsy-turvy smothering of debate and an Orwellian denial of free speech to declare that speaking out against violence will cause violence."

What I find really delicious is that those who accuse we liberals of being hoodwinked by the MSM are quite happy to take as the gospel truth blog posts written by single issue obsessed loons no matter how unqualified in their subject matter the writers of those blogposts are

PhD in physics and maths........

A well qualified historian, then!

Found a brief

BILL FRENCH

ORGANIZATION Heads the for-profit Center for the Study of Political Islam in Nashville.

CREDENTIALS Former Tennessee State University physics professor; author of Sharia Law for Non-Muslims (2010; under the pen name Bill Warner).

SUMMARY French has no formal training or background in law, Islam or Shariah law — which in any case is not an established legal code, as the book title implies, but a fluid concept subject to a wide range of interpretations and applications. He garnered attention recently by leading the opposition to a proposed mosque in Murfreesboro, Tenn.

(7by7 emphasis)

I see the frantic search to discredit a source of uncomfortable facts has ended, thus rendering said facts to have magically never happened, or at least rendered the liberal cranium impervious to them. I do understand going off reservation is as terrifying to the modern progressive as a candid interview with Western media would have been to an East German at the height of the cold war. Thus we have a Pavlovian rush to source police to avoid dangerous thoughts, recently Stephen Fry found out exactly what happens to those who do think out of the box, even if they are Liberals.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/news/stephen-fry-hits-back-at-accusations-of-islamophobia-8793025.html

Stephen Fry has spoken of his frustration at being labelled an "Islamophobe" for criticising the violent acts committed by some Islamists.In a strongly worded blog post, the actor and comedian lamented that the "squeezed liberal finds himself in the position that he cannot criticise Islamofascism because it's somehow 'racist'".He continued: "It is a topsy-turvy smothering of debate and an Orwellian denial of free speech to declare that speaking out against violence will cause violence."

And Fry went on to say:

"Do I believe that all Muslims want to see my civilisation destroyed? That they are all bombers in the making? Of course I don't."

Your source Mr French/Warner, or whatever he chooses to call himself, is about as believable as a"reporter" for the Daily Star.The Jews have historically, and are still, blamed for every problem under the sun by a few vile, deluded, ignorant folk. Now we have "mooslims" being blamed for everything from seeking world domination to desertification to inventing piracy, to being the sole oppressor of Jews.

Both viewpoints are total <deleted> and just underline the pathetic, myopic, agenda-driven, tunnel-vision nature of their proponents.

No faith, ethnic group, race or nation is free from sin to some degree. But the vast majority of people across the world are decent folk who want to have a peaceful, productive life. Unfounded demonization of an entire group is utterly wrong and usually counter-productive.

As previously stated I have an utter loathing for extremists of any background who cheerlead or undertake violence to further their aims. I don't discriminate in my loathing, why does any thinking, rational person choose to do so....?

As previously stated I have an utter loathing for extremists of any background who cheerlead or undertake violence to further their aims. I don't discriminate in my loathing, why does any thinking, rational person choose to do so....?

Thinking, rational people don't.

But for some their hatred destroys all thought and rationality when it comes to the object of their hate. So that they can then justify their final solution to the Muslim problem, perhaps?

Steely Dan, yet again when attempting to discredit something said by a poster you disagree with, you have missed out an important part of a quote; I've emphasised the important part you chose to ignore.

PhD in physics and maths........

A well qualified historian, then!

Found a brief

BILL FRENCH
ORGANIZATION Heads the for-profit Center for the Study of Political Islam in Nashville.

CREDENTIALS Former Tennessee State University physics professor; author of Sharia Law for Non-Muslims (2010; under the pen name Bill Warner).

SUMMARY French has no formal training or background in law, Islam or Shariah law — which in any case is not an established legal code, as the book title implies, but a fluid concept subject to a wide range of interpretations and applications. He garnered attention recently by leading the opposition to a proposed mosque in Murfreesboro, Tenn.

(7by7 emphasis)

He's entitled to his views, of course, but to quote him as an authoritative source is really scraping the barrel!

Edited to remove coding errors

@Folium

As usual you blatantly attempt to change the focus of attention away from the points you can't answer. I mentioned Stephen Fry to illustrate the PC straight jacket modern liberals have tied themselves up in. That Fry had to even take time out to parry the inevitable flak from illiberal liberals illustrates his point precisely. Then comes a second evasion, this time from 7by7, facts are different from interpretation. You are welcome to disagree with interpretation, but just because you disagree with a source does not automatically render any facts they present as fiction.

Then we have another twist of the same perverse logic from Sustento, just because something is not mentioned in you beloved left leaning MSM does not mean it's untrue. The MSM is equally capable of having an agenda, the BBC indeed has a rather lucrative Arabic language channel.

So you are all welcome to talk of the so called Golden Age, but do you deny that any of the events chronicled in the video have some historical account or evidence as a basis?

No one has said that there weren't slavers and pirates who were Muslims.

Surely even you don't deny that there were as many slavers and pirates who were Jews, Christians, any other religion you choose?

Slavery was commonplace all over the world in the pre industrial age; ask any black American or West Indian.

Can you explain how Muslim slavers and pirates caused an event which started over 200 years before Mohammed's birth?

It wasn't Muslims who carried out the Rhineland massacres; it was Christian crusaders.

Suggested reading - "Mohammad and Charlemagne" - Henri Pirenne. The fall of Rome 476AD did not result in the Dark ages. Trade flourished, infrastructure was maintained for some 250 years under Gothic custodianship. Records such as coinage, or the number of shipwrecks (measure of trade) tailed off dramatically after 700AD - The real start of the Dark Ages. 5 Crusader battles scarcely show as a blip compared to the 500 or so during the first Jihad. The video shows the battles as dots in 20 year frames and also de-bunks the so called 'Golden Age' myth.

Oh lordy, this video really is pathetic.

Give away points that highlight the man's utter ignorance:

the "Black Plague"....<deleted>?

the Romans "speaking Roman" !!!! Sounds like a George W line

Struggling to pronounce Thermopylae and furthering the myth of 300 Greeks(?), presumably he means Spartans.

Piracy as a muslim-only activity

"economic warfare" as a muslim-only activity, seems he knows little about European imperialism, see Opium Wars etc

North Africa under the Romans was a "European society". Overlooks the indigenous Berber population and the fact that few of the Roman administrators or soldiers came from Italy. Most major Roman forts had a civilian settlement outside or colonia (settler towns) were built for retired soldiers to settle, marry locals and produce the next wave of recruits. The Roman Empire/army was multiculturalist to its roots. The Emperor Septimus Severus was a Carthaginian (ie north African)

His picture of the ruins in Tunisia as "proof" that the city was abandoned intact and not recycled by the "silly little nomads" who followed in the Romans wake, is hilarious. Having been to Sbeitla myself on several occasions the good "Dr" obviously has not enjoyed a visit, as almost the whole city has gone with the exception of the forum and its 3 temples which were converted into a fortified village. Such conversions explain why many Roman ruins survive, see theatre at Orange, France; theatre at Bosra, Syria; theatre at Aspendos, Turkey; Diocletian's Palace, Split, Croatia etc

The moron then segs into a comment that Sbeitla's harbour has a deposit of silt as evidence of desertification wrought by the "pesky mooslims". Sorry, but Sbeitla is about 180kms from the nearest coastline (and at an elevation of 626 metres above sea level), so that's either one mighty impressive example of silting up and tectonic uplift, or just total <deleted> on behalf of the "learned" doctor.

Also the idea that desertification in N.Africa was again all due to our pesky friends again, is also laughable.

And on & on he goes, and to be honest it's just sickening nonsense. Bitter, myopic and frankly unpleasant with the give-away line at 37:37 in the second clip, when looking at a chart of "Jihad attacks" purporting to show in one line muslim on muslim killings and a separate line showing muslim on non-muslim killings. Turning to the second (and referring to the deaths of non-muslims), he states "this is the only one I care about". Such a despicable viewpoint just sums up what a low life, douche bag this guy is.

And he has a nom de guerre.....!! How sweet. No doubt with a concealed weapon built into his bowtie loaded with "mooslim"-seeking rounds. But of course they are coming to get us........

Maybe this type of guff works with certain sections in Tennessee, but for those with a slightly wider world view...

Dan, many thanks for the Friday afternoon entertainment.

deleted

And Fry went on to say:

"Do I believe that all Muslims want to see my civilisation destroyed? That they are all bombers in the making? Of course I don't."

Your source Mr French/Warner, or whatever he chooses to call himself, is about as believable as a"reporter" for the Daily Star.The Jews have historically, and are still, blamed for every problem under the sun by a few vile, deluded, ignorant folk. Now we have "mooslims" being blamed for everything from seeking world domination to desertification to inventing piracy, to being the sole oppressor of Jews.

Both viewpoints are total <deleted> and just underline the pathetic, myopic, agenda-driven, tunnel-vision nature of their proponents.

No faith, ethnic group, race or nation is free from sin to some degree. But the vast majority of people across the world are decent folk who want to have a peaceful, productive life. Unfounded demonization of an entire group is utterly wrong and usually counter-productive.

As previously stated I have an utter loathing for extremists of any background who cheerlead or undertake violence to further their aims. I don't discriminate in my loathing, why does any thinking, rational person choose to do so....?

(My emphasis added)

I posted further above a comment about the Bani Hillel causing the partial destruction of the green land that was Libya. Roman Libya extended beyond the present-day borders and was indeed the breadbasket of the Empire. The magnificence of Leptis Magna, Sabratha and the several other remaining sites of Roman toowns (Cyrene was founded by the Greeks prior to the Roman cities) makes one realise what wealth was built up in that area. Regrettably that is now lost to us, although a thin strip of coastal farming still exists, thanks to Muammar Gaddaf'i's Great Man-Made River.

Muammar also tried to halt desertification in the Benghazi area by planting many thousands of trees in the Jebel Akhdar (Green Hills) which stretch from Benghazi to Beida. But the local Bedu had many goats and these ate the trees. So the Libyan government decreed that the goats be confiscated and the herders compensated. Quite generously. So what happens? The herders go across the border into Egypt and buy new goats at a cheaper rate than the compensation. Second planting of trees destroyed.

I'm not saying all this happened because they were Muslims, but the first event (the Bani Hillel) was caused by the devotion of the invading tribe to the new religion. Without this there may not have been a unification of the large tribe and their march Westward into the Maghreb. The second event was purely the greed of the graziers, which is universal.

Driving into the desert it is not unusual to see the family of a country villager out in their Peugeot 504 estate, with the goats in the back, with a couple of junior wives, the eldest son on his father's lap (no need for airbags) while driving, a tonne of luggage on the roof, wrapped in colourful cotton sheets. and the entire package suddenly turning off the highway into the desert on a track that is barely discernable.

I loved my time in the Libyan desert, also my several tours in Saudi and the UAE. I have nothing against the individuals that I knew there - on the whole. But for so very many people in North Africa, the Middle East and Pakistan/Bangladesh there is a different set of moral values to that existing in Europe, the USA and other 'Western' countries. In their countries one accepts that one is different, educated differently to other standards. And one behaves in a manner commensurate with that understanding.

The same shift should also be observed by them, when they enter 'our' territory. Bringing a lot of baggage into a different civilisation doesn't work. I've had to send home evengelical christian workers from Saudi, drunks from Iran, Saudi, Libya and the UAE. I've had to go to court in all these places to explain either my actions, or those of the company's employees. I've also had to do that in other non-Muslim countries. Other social standards, other behaviour needed. But in Western countries Western standards should prevail - Saudis do not adapt their laws and behaviour to suit us, whether it be in Jizzan or Al Khobar. Why should we adapt our standards to suit them when in Reading or Nottingham?

Indeed the North African provinces of the Roman Empire were it's richest seeing as it was the breadbasket of the empire. That there were Berbers living there is not significant with respect to Rome. The Berbers did on occasion ally themselves with the Visigoths, post empire in order to resist the Arab invasions. Three times in a century were they converted to Islam, after having twice reverted, but as we all know there is no compulsion in religion, according to Islam so all this to-ing and fro-ing must have been voluntary.

I have a mind to start a new thread covering the dark ages and so called golden age seeing as it is an interesting subject, though sadly some of an infantile small minded disposition would no doubt conclude this was hate speech, just as discussing the history of the Nazis is hateful to all Germans, both now and in perpetuity.

Indeed the North African provinces of the Roman Empire were it's richest seeing as it was the breadbasket of the empire. That there were Berbers living there is not significant with respect to Rome. The Berbers did on occasion ally themselves with the Visigoths, post empire in order to resist the Arab invasions. Three times in a century were they converted to Islam, after having twice reverted, but as we all know there is no compulsion in religion, according to Islam so all this to-ing and fro-ing must have been voluntary.

I have a mind to start a new thread covering the dark ages and so called golden age seeing as it is an interesting subject, though sadly some of an infantile small minded disposition would no doubt conclude this was hate speech, just as discussing the history of the Nazis is hateful to all Germans, both now and in perpetuity.

Not sure of the forum where a review of the Islamic Golden Age is relevant to TV. There is a lot of lattitude permitted to critise Islam and Muslims on TV via World News topics, even some of the truely OTT vilifcation/hate posts remain.

Discussion on the history of Nazism is permitted and occurs in Germany, but not to glorify/promote Nazism or holocaust denial; is this what you are referring to?

Indeed the North African provinces of the Roman Empire were it's richest seeing as it was the breadbasket of the empire. That there were Berbers living there is not significant with respect to Rome. The Berbers did on occasion ally themselves with the Visigoths, post empire in order to resist the Arab invasions. Three times in a century were they converted to Islam, after having twice reverted, but as we all know there is no compulsion in religion, according to Islam so all this to-ing and fro-ing must have been voluntary.

I have a mind to start a new thread covering the dark ages and so called golden age seeing as it is an interesting subject, though sadly some of an infantile small minded disposition would no doubt conclude this was hate speech, just as discussing the history of the Nazis is hateful to all Germans, both now and in perpetuity.

Not sure of the forum where a review of the Islamic Golden Age is relevant to TV. There is a lot of lattitude permitted to critise Islam and Muslims on TV via World News topics, even some of the truely OTT vilifcation/hate posts remain.

Discussion on the history of Nazism is permitted and occurs in Germany, but not to glorify/promote Nazism or holocaust denial; is this what you are referring to?

This is as you know the Out of the box forum, for thinking outside the mainstream. As such questioning when the dark ages started, and why is out of the box, if you don't believe the fall of Rome was the key, likewise the Islamic Golden Age is billed as the time Islam went through a renaissance and saved much of the literature from classical civilization. To question this consensus view was not hate speech when Henri Pirenne's posthumously released book Mohammad and Charlemagne was published in 1937, nor is it now.

Anyway, this avenue has only been explored due to someone else mentioning the dark ages, it kind of snowballed from there. I may well open a new topic for this as it is a fascinating period of time, with many many parallels to the world today.

Indeed the North African provinces of the Roman Empire were it's richest seeing as it was the breadbasket of the empire. That there were Berbers living there is not significant with respect to Rome. The Berbers did on occasion ally themselves with the Visigoths, post empire in order to resist the Arab invasions. Three times in a century were they converted to Islam, after having twice reverted, but as we all know there is no compulsion in religion, according to Islam so all this to-ing and fro-ing must have been voluntary.

I have a mind to start a new thread covering the dark ages and so called golden age seeing as it is an interesting subject, though sadly some of an infantile small minded disposition would no doubt conclude this was hate speech, just as discussing the history of the Nazis is hateful to all Germans, both now and in perpetuity.

Not sure of the forum where a review of the Islamic Golden Age is relevant to TV. There is a lot of lattitude permitted to critise Islam and Muslims on TV via World News topics, even some of the truely OTT vilifcation/hate posts remain.

Discussion on the history of Nazism is permitted and occurs in Germany, but not to glorify/promote Nazism or holocaust denial; is this what you are referring to?

This is as you know the Out of the box forum, for thinking outside the mainstream. As such questioning when the dark ages started, and why is out of the box, if you don't believe the fall of Rome was the key, likewise the Islamic Golden Age is billed as the time Islam went through a renaissance and saved much of the literature from classical civilization. To question this consensus view was not hate speech when Henri Pirenne's posthumously released book Mohammad and Charlemagne was published in 1937, nor is it now.

Anyway, this avenue has only been explored due to someone else mentioning the dark ages, it kind of snowballed from there. I may well open a new topic for this as it is a fascinating period of time, with many many parallels to the world today.

please do open up a thread on the Islamic Golden Age....can't wait for some more scintillating videos...!

For more on Roman agriculture in North Africa and the reasons for it's decline, see:-

Agriculture in the Roman empire

Ancient Agriculture in Libya: A Review of the Evidence

Now, these are not written by the unqualified who base their conclusions on ignorance and prejudice; they are learned articles using archaeological, botanical and other evidence to support their conclusions.

As such, they make heavy reading; so allow me to summarise as best I can.

Libya, and other parts of North Africa, were indeed the 'breadbasket of Rome. They also produced other cash crops such as olives and wine.

But, apart from some coastal regions and the Nile Valley, extremely low annual rainfall meant this was only possible due to vast irrigation projects; worthwhile when there was such a large demand from and hence export market to the rest of the empire.

With the decline of the Western empire, this demand fell dramatically; such that it was no longer economically worthwhile going to the expense of maintaining the wells and aqueducts, so they fell into disrepair and became ineffective. This lack of irrigation meant the land reverted back to scrubland suitable only for the grazing of sheep and goats.

The arrival of the Vandals and destruction they wrought didn’t help, either.

Of course, low rainfall, poor irrigation and intensive farming have been responsible for land losing its fertility throughout the world and throughout the ages.

One of the largest examples in modern times being the North American dustbowl of the 1930s; caused by a combination of low rainfall and a failure to apply dry land farming methods to prevent wind erosion. Extensive deep ploughing of the virgin topsoil of the Great Plains had displaced the native, deep-rooted grasses that normally trapped soil and moisture even during periods of drought and high winds.

Surely not even Steely Dan and his sources can pin the blame for that on Muslims?

The accusation that the spread of Islam into North Africa was responsible for the silting up of ports is also ridiculous.

Ports and harbours, both manmade and natural, are and always have been subject to silting up due to coastal erosion and drift as well as silt being carried from inland by rivers.

Dredging, of course, prevents this, but with the lack of trade due to the decline of the Western Empire, then, like maintaining the irrigation of land to grow crops no one wanted any more, the expense and effort of so doing was no longer worthwhile.

I offer as an example of this from outside the Muslim world the Cinque port of Sandwich in Kent.

A thriving port in the 13th Century, the first elephant to arrive in England was landed there in 1255, it is now over 2 miles from the sea.

How are Muslims responsible for that?

The reversion of North African farmland back to scrub and the silting up of North African ports started before the arrival of the Muslim Arabs; although they did continued afterwards.

However, their causes were nothing to do with the Arabs nor their religion; they were economic.

But in Western countries Western standards should prevail - Saudis do not adapt their laws and behaviour to suit us, whether it be in Jizzan or Al Khobar. Why should we adapt our standards to suit them when in Reading or Nottingham?

Perhaps you could give some examples of where UK law, customs and/or standards have been adapted to suit 'them'?

They're allowed to build mosques; shock horror! Freedom of religion and worship; disgraceful!

They're allowed to dress as they wish! How terrible!

They can eat Halal! Appalling! (Is kosher acceptable to you?)

But in Western countries Western standards should prevail - Saudis do not adapt their laws and behaviour to suit us, whether it be in Jizzan or Al Khobar. Why should we adapt our standards to suit them when in Reading or Nottingham?

Perhaps you could give some examples of where UK law, customs and/or standards have been adapted to suit 'them'?

They're allowed to build mosques; shock horror! Freedom of religion and worship; disgraceful!

They're allowed to dress as they wish! How terrible!

They can eat Halal! Appalling! (Is kosher acceptable to you?)

Yes, they are allowed to build mosques - and very beautiful some are. Although I preferred several of the mosques in Isfahan and Shiraz.

However in Saudi we are not allowed churches - in fact we are not allowed to gather together in small groups to discuss the Bible (that is - Christians only. Of course we are not allowed to proselytise). I have twice had to send home filipinos who met to discuss the Bible in their private accommodation in groups of about six or seven. Otherwise they would have gone to jail.

Yes, they are allowed to dress as they wish (in the UK).

However in Saudi my wife had to cover her hair with the abaya, which draped her in black from head-to-toe. This she didn't like and one time I recall the mutawwa (religious police) screaming in her face from about six inches away, because she was having the head covering around her neck instead of covering her hair. We were walking into a cafe in Jeddah old town and her head covering had just slipped as we went inside.

Yes, they can eat halal. I was brought up on kosher food. Again I can recall an incident from the early sixties, when I had been to a Young Socialist vacation-cum-conference at the Durham Miners Welfare Camp at Skeggie. I had a car - recently passed my test - and met a very nice girl there to whom I offered a lift back to London. She accepted and we went to her parents place in the East End. Her father was a bookie, in the days when off-course betting was less than legal under most circumstances. But anyway we sat down to a meal and were served bacon. Now this was a Jewish home and I had expected that they kept kosher - I didn't at that time know any Jews who didn't. So I ate trefa for probably the the first time since the war (WWII) ended. This girl was a secretary to Barbara Castle and Judith Hart in the HoC, and often in the next few months Barbara would spout my thoughts as her own. I got thrown out of the Labour Party for my Trotskyite (Young Guard / Keep Left) views, while Barbara rose to high office and was lauded for saying exactly the same.

So - we allow all people to enjoy their own cultural customs while in the UK - such as child brides, female genital mutilation and so on. as you suggest. But if we go to their countries of origin we have to conform to their mores and are given very little leeway in our understanding of such laws and customs.

And you are happy about this?

Your other post has references in it that I shall research. The general one on agriculture in the Roman Empire I have skimmed through. The other one with particular reference to Libya I have not yet been able to download (the PDF) I shall do so.

So - we allow all people to enjoy their own cultural customs while in the UK - such as child brides, female genital mutilation and so on. as you suggest. But if we go to their countries of origin we have to conform to their mores and are given very little leeway in our understanding of such laws and customs.

I thought you would have known that child brides and female genital mutilation are both illegal in the UK!

The minimum age of consent for marriage in the UK is 16. If someone marries a foreign child abroad, they cannot get a visa for that child to settle in the UK as the minimum age for settlement as a spouse/partner is 18.

Female genital mutilation is a problem, especially among sub Saharan Africans. Not enoght has been done by the British authorities to prosecute those in the UK who commit this atrocity; but as I'm sure you know from recent news reports, this is changing; at last.

That Saudi and many other countries, both Muslim and non Muslim, do not allow the same freedom of speech, religion, etc. as others is no reason for the UK to start restricting those freedoms.

It used to be illegal to be a communist in the USA (still may be, I don't know): do you think the UK should have done the same?

Or, as a staunch socialist, do you agree that we were right in keeping to the principle of political freedom?

Your other post has references in it that I shall research. The general one on agriculture in the Roman Empire I have skimmed through. The other one with particular reference to Libya I have not yet been able to download (the PDF) I shall do so

I look forward to reading the results of your research.

Unlike some posters, I have no problem with people researching the sources of my evidence.

Further reading which may be of interest to some, painful for others:-

A tale of two deserts: contrasting desertification histories on Rome’s desert frontiers

The two desserts in question being in North Africa and The Levant (Arabia).

One very pertinent point made early on, page 2, which sums up Dr Whateverhesdecidedtocallhimselftoday's ignorant argument

In many countries, too, debates about past desert settlement have been and are still shaped by present-day political agendas: the (assumed) pastoralism of the ancient tribes of Israel is a force for good in the Old and New Testaments, for example, yet it was ‘destructive Arab pastoralists’ (again,assumed, and in this case wrongly so: Ballais 2000; Rosen 2000) that destroyed the Roman urban societies of the Near East and North Africa.

Although you state that child marriage and FGM are illegal in the UK - can you give me any details of any prosecution?

And if you find any (doubtful) - can you give me details of the verdict - the sentence if a guilty verdict - any appeal.

I have not found any guilty verdicts.

With regard to FGM - this is not a singular offence yet, although there is a campaign on-going. Maybe a charge od ABH or child abuse may succeed, but that is difficult to bring at the moment.

King Saud University from the chief of source police!

By way of a quick reality check I never mentioned desertification, that it was mentioned in the one hour video I posted has sent us down a diversionary liberal wormhole. The pertinent issues being deliberately avoided are the extent of Arab raids on Europe, the economic and social fallout from these and the long list of atrocities that occurred in the so called Golden age. These are more difficult to refute hence the diversionary froth.

When I get the time I will cover archaeological evidence, but for now I would confine myself to asking why there is far more archaeological artifacts belonging to Visigothic Spain than the Arab rule, which lasted a similar length of time? Barbarians versus Golden Age, though the Barbarians did speak rustic Latin, which may surprise those with a fuzzy view of what came after the fall of Rome.

Further reading which may be of interest to some, painful for others:-

In many countries, too, debates about past desert settlement have been and are still shaped by present-day political agendas: the (assumed) pastoralism of the ancient tribes of Israel is a force for good in the Old and New Testaments, for example, yet it was ‘destructive Arab pastoralists’ (again,assumed, and in this case wrongly so: Ballais 2000; Rosen 2000) that destroyed the Roman urban societies of the Near East and North Africa.

<a data-ipb="nomediaparse" data-cke-saved-href="http://faculty.ksu.edu.sa/archaeology/Publications/Palaeoclimate/contrasting%20desertification%20histories%20on%20Rome" href="http://faculty.ksu.edu.sa/archaeology/Publications/Palaeoclimate/contrasting%20desertification%20histories%20on%20Rome" s%20desert%20frontiers.pdf"="">

I got an error 404 - page not found - on your link Dan.

Could you post again, please.

Desertification, as far as my posts are concerned, was not a hare started by you, but was responded to by me.

Arab remains in Spain? Visit Andalucia and Granada. Sevilla, Cordoba and Granada have many such. Valencia still has some, Murcia and Almeria also. I'm not talking about the occasional archaeological dig, but villages, cities, public buildings that are still extant. The Alcazar in Toledo is also worth seeing - in almost the geometric centre of Spain.

So - we allow all people to enjoy their own cultural customs while in the UK - such as child brides, female genital mutilation and so on. as you suggest. But if we go to their countries of origin we have to conform to their mores and are given very little leeway in our understanding of such laws and customs.

I thought you would have known that child brides and female genital mutilation are both illegal in the UK!

The minimum age of consent for marriage in the UK is 16. If someone marries a foreign child abroad, they cannot get a visa for that child to settle in the UK as the minimum age for settlement as a spouse/partner is 18.

Female genital mutilation is a problem, especially among sub Saharan Africans. Not enoght has been done by the British authorities to prosecute those in the UK who commit this atrocity; but as I'm sure you know from recent news reports, this is changing; at last.

That Saudi and many other countries, both Muslim and non Muslim, do not allow the same freedom of speech, religion, etc. as others is no reason for the UK to start restricting those freedoms.

It used to be illegal to be a communist in the USA (still may be, I don't know): do you think the UK should have done the same?

Or, as a staunch socialist, do you agree that we were right in keeping to the principle of political freedom?

Your other post has references in it that I shall research. The general one on agriculture in the Roman Empire I have skimmed through. The other one with particular reference to Libya I have not yet been able to download (the PDF) I shall do so

I look forward to reading the results of your research.

Unlike some posters, I have no problem with people researching the sources of my evidence.

Child brides illegal or not. last year msn.co.uk reported ITV were showing a documentary based in the Dewsbury area. A lot of muslim clerics were prepared to carry out weddings involving child brides.

Although you state that child marriage and FGM are illegal in the UK - can you give me any details of any prosecution?

And if you find any (doubtful) - can you give me details of the verdict - the sentence if a guilty verdict - any appeal.

I have not found any guilty verdicts.

With regard to FGM - this is not a singular offence yet, although there is a campaign on-going. Maybe a charge od ABH or child abuse may succeed, but that is difficult to bring at the moment.

With regards to FGM, UK law now provides up to 14 years imprisonment, but to date no prosecutions. Met Police have claimed

"Last year we had 69 referrals and undertook action in 57 of those cases. We’ve had a huge increase in the number of referrals. What we need is better information about what is happening. It’s not just about charges; it’s about safeguarding and intervention, where we are being very successful, which isn’t talked about enough in my opinion."

Read more: http://voiceofrussia.com/uk/news/2014_01_27/FGM-An-unpunished-crime-9976/

Purely an assumption, but I would guess it would be extremely difficult to have the victim as a witness that would lead to break up of the family, fear and so on.

It is claimed protection orders for forced marriages has saved 86 potential victims in 2013. So far only one person, a woman, has been jailed for breaching protection orders - 14 months imprisonment.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/new-law-saves-86-victims-from-forced-marriages-1825392.html

The scenario is murky for the proposed forced marriage crimilisation legislation as womens rights organisations have claimed it will lead to resistance of reporting by the victims.

http://www.opendemocracy.net/5050/amrit-wilson/criminalising-forced-marriage-in-uk-why-it-will-not-help-women

King Saud University from the chief of source police!

Steely Dan, if you are going to check sources, you should check them properly; you'll look a lot less foolish if you do so.

The copy of the report I linked to may be on a Saudi website, but it was written by Professor Graeme Barker when he was head of the School of Archaeology at the University of Leicester and originally published in the journal World Archaeology.

I notice you have made no comment on my other two sources. No doubt because the first comes from the University of California and the second the University of Leicester and therefore you can't attempt to rubbish them with a silly smiley.

So you ignore them instead!

Although you state that child marriage and FGM are illegal in the UK - can you give me any details of any prosecution?

I refer you to Simple1's post above.

As for underage marriage in the UK, it's impossible.

No registry office or other licensed marriage registrar in the UK will marry someone under 16; it's illegal. So if someone does carry out a 'marriage' in the UK when one of the couple is under age, it is not a legal marriage and a crime.

No person under 16 who is married outside the UK will get a visa to settle in the UK with their spouse as the minimum age for this is 18.

Of course, underage marriage is not just a Muslim problem; it is prevalent in many non Muslim countries as well. Even among US Reality TV persons: Duck Dynasty's Phil Robertson encourages men to marry underage girls in video.

Arab remains in Spain? Visit Andalucia and Granada. Sevilla, Cordoba and Granada have many such. Valencia still has some, Murcia and Almeria also. I'm not talking about the occasional archaeological dig, but villages, cities, public buildings that are still extant. The Alcazar in Toledo is also worth seeing - in almost the geometric centre of Spain.

Anyone with any knowledge of the history of the Iberian peninsula knows that much of it was once under Muslim control; no one denies that.

As has been said before, for most of that time both Christians and Jews were allowed to live and practice their religions freely.

Then the Christians came and 'liberated' the peninsula.

And brought with them the various inquisitions; forcing Jews and Muslims to convert, be expelled or die!

I cannot understand why some posters go on and on about Muslim conquests and atrocities but totally ignore Christian ones.

It seems that they saying: "Muslims conquer a country and allow religious freedom: bad! Christians conquer a country and persecute, expel or murder those who wont convert: good!"

By way of a quick reality check I never mentioned desertification, that it was mentioned in the one hour video I posted has sent us down a diversionary liberal wormhole. The pertinent issues being deliberately avoided are the extent of Arab raids on Europe, the economic and social fallout from these and the long list of atrocities that occurred in the so called Golden age. These are more difficult to refute hence the diversionary froth.

You and your beloved Dr French/Warner have been proven completely wrong on your claims that the desertification of North Africa was caused by Muslim Arabs; and so you now call it "diversionary froth."

Typical.

Many of the other points you raised have already been dealt with; but as usual you have chosen to ignore anything which conflicts with your prejudiced views.

As for your ridiculous remarks about Muslim archaeological remains in Spain; no comment as that has already been shown to be ignorant by Humphrey Bear.

Indeed the North African provinces of the Roman Empire were it's richest seeing as it was the breadbasket of the empire. That there were Berbers living there is not significant with respect to Rome. The Berbers did on occasion ally themselves with the Visigoths, post empire in order to resist the Arab invasions. Three times in a century were they converted to Islam, after having twice reverted, but as we all know there is no compulsion in religion, according to Islam so all this to-ing and fro-ing must have been voluntary.

I have a mind to start a new thread covering the dark ages and so called golden age seeing as it is an interesting subject, though sadly some of an infantile small minded disposition would no doubt conclude this was hate speech, just as discussing the history of the Nazis is hateful to all Germans, both now and in perpetuity.

An interesting article on female genital mutilation from the Royal College of Nursing.

It is not clear when and where FGM first started but it is known to have existed over two thousand years ago (El Dareer, 1982), and has been found in Egyptian mummies from 2000 BC. It is well documented that FGM was practised in Britain, Canada and the USA in the 18th century to prevent masturbation, cure hysteria and some psychiatric conditions (Ng, 2000).

...........

FGM is often erroneously linked to Islam and is practised in some communities where Islam predominates. Some Muslims consider that Islam demands the practice to ensure spiritual purity, although many Islamic scholars disagree with this stating that FGM is not mentioned in the Qur’an. However, it is clearly a ritual practice that predates the Prophet Mohammed and the Islamic religion. FGM transcends religious, racial and social boundaries (Webb, 1995). A minority of followers of other faiths, Christians, animists and Jews practise it (Maurad and Hassenein, 1994).

Female genital mutilation is a terrible crime; I hope no one here would deny that. But to lay the blame purely on Islam is utterly incorrect; as shown it is a cultural practice, not a religious one and pre dates Islam, and Christianity, by thousands of years.

King Saud University from the chief of source police!

Steely Dan, if you are going to check sources, you should check them properly; you'll look a lot less foolish if you do so.

The copy of the report I linked to may be on a Saudi website, but it was written by Professor Graeme Barker when he was head of the School of Archaeology at the University of Leicester and originally published in the journal World Archaeology.

I notice you have made no comment on my other two sources. No doubt because the first comes from the University of California and the second the University of Leicester and therefore you can't attempt to rubbish them with a silly smiley.

So you ignore them instead!

I tried to click your link but got nothing but a html page, from which I managed to glean it referenced a page on the King Saud University website. As for your other links, I may even agree with them, but as stated this is a side issue.

P.S Humphrey Bear, Sorry the link was not mine, I think a garbled version of 7by7's link somehow found it's way into my post.