Anti-government protesters enter Thai finance ministry

[bigbamboo]

Look at it from the bright side. The South is quiet. No bombings, no soldiers murdered, no teachers and children beheaded. All the scum have been sent to Bangkok by the Democrat Party. Foreign journalists are attacked like in 2010 accused by Democrat congressmen of being red shirt supporters and three ministeries are ransacked.

Anyone wants more proof that yellow shirts are undemocratic and narcissists?

enlighten me who are you refering to as scum...

Anyone want more proof that some TV red shirts are ignorant?

[EvilDrSomkid]

If they would have some magical rich bosses, they would simply bought the last elections or at least the MPs.....So more it seems it is the people who are fed up with corruption.

So they let Suthep, one of the most corrupt men to ever enter Thai Parliament, lead them by the nose, what a pathetic joke !

That has struck me as the ultimate irony in all of this.

Suthep, the Chalerm of the Democrats. Although, his son was only accused of encroachment and bribery, not murder.

btw, I thought this was funny:

RT @tulsathit: Censure can either soften up Yingluck, or make Democrats look like fools. (end)

The (end) part looks like a Freudian slip?

I have to admit, the Dems are starting to look foolish.

[Prbkk]

Link to one of his posts relevant to the current situation ( ANU fair use applies to this link)

http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2010/05/16/nick-nostitz-in-the-killing-zone/

[dao16]

Disneyland. If these bandits overturn this government, then th "reds" will do bad things, worse than 2010. This is the only way the so called Democrats ever can form a government. They will never win it by election.

Yeah, I love the name "Democrats." So reminiscent of the North Korean propaganda I read.

[SchuetzRob]

Most Thaivisa posters will no doubt be familiar with photojournalist Nick Nostitz. After Bluesky TV had a section devoted to him insisiting he works for the reds (total nonsense as we know), unfortunately it then appears Nick was assaulted (not sure how badly injured he is) after being singled out by a Democrat MP from the stage:

Anasuya ‏@Anasuya 2h

Democrat MP Chumpon pointed him out from the protest stage calling him a "red shirt journalist" and urged the crowd to kick him out.

Anasuya ‏@Anasuya 2h

Nick said it was seconds before the first fists hit him. He is filing charges and this rules out him covering the yellow protests

He also appears to have been singled out on the Blue SkyTV FB page: https://www.facebook.com/BLUESKYChannel/posts/406698986099538

Anyway, people complaining that the anti-govt protests are not receiving coverage. Well, they were on Channel 3 last night. It'd be understandable if Channel 3 were reluctant to show them again though after they apparently forced their way in and demanded that Sorrayuth blow a whistle and apologize...

Sunai ‏@sunaibkk 49m

Getting disgusting! While Sorayuth urged for peaceful expression & respect for different opinions, protesters demanded him to apologize.

Sunai ‏@sunaibkk 46m

Protesters demanding Sorayuth to blow a whistle, handed to him by Democrat politician. > #Intimidation

IMHO Nick Nostitz deserves it.

He should not have taken Thaksin money.

Nick Nostitz is quite a good photojournalist but he is definitely a dyed-in-the-wool red shirt. He reported on New Mandala that the yellow shirt protestors at Parliament in 2008 deserved to be shot with explosive tear gas grenades because they failed to observe police instructions to disperse and produced somewhat one-sided accounts of the red shirt storming of the APEC conference in Pattaya, the attack on PM Abhisit's car and the red shirt riots in 2009 and 2010. It seems that Dem MP Chumpon pointed him out from the stage and the crowd had a go at him - not a very nice thing to do but Nick must have known the risks he was running by being there as a known red shirt sympathiser. He reported an attack on TV news cars by red shirts in 2009 as if the TV crews deserved it for being biased against the red shirts. Now the screw has turned the other way.

At any rate he now has another great action man story on a par with the time when he was shot at by yellow shirt guards firing ball bearings from their sling shots. He can also report the restraint used by the demonstrators in only giving him a mild duffing up in the same way as he reported the gentleness with which the red shirt guards beat up Abhisit's secretary-general, Niphon, when they were frustrated in their attempt to murder Abhisit himself.

'i disapprove of what you say, but i will defend to the death your right to say it'. attributed to voltaire.

[Yunla]

... The only way to increase the middle classes is to distribute the wealth of the elite....

I agree with your post on several levels, but I have <snip> out this line because it is not historically accurate, and it would only be at best a temporary Band-Aid or elastaplast to patch up a gushing wound.

Historically, middle classes have always arrived by the "a rising tide raises all ships" style of social development. Aspirational working classes became middle classes in truly huge numbers, by the successful "real-wage economics" of certain societies (at certain stages.) A "real-wage", also known as "full-wage" and not to be confused with real wage purchasing power, is when a man's one single salary from one single full-time job, pays for his house & car & wife & kids. Without ever resorting to borrowing. We saw this in America briefly during the start of the 20th Century, many sociologists including myself have argued successfully that this was the single most successful society in history. Real-wage was the norm, industry & science were subject to relentless investment, and the economy was manufacturing based. This was America's golden age, and came to an end when the control of America switched from the manufacturing industry sector control, to the fiscal oligarch control, Wall Street became the driving force behind the White House, and social templating became increasingly geared towards stocks and derivatives and soforth, while industry declined. Now to the point where Obama's inner team are 90% former Wall Street bankers, and he has no representatives from heavy industry etc. at all. When industry ruled the US, nobody borrowed money, people had real-wages, but when the bankers took over wages nosedived and borrowing became the alternative.

Why this is relevant is that while manufacturing and heavy industry were in the driving seat at the White House, in the early 20thC, we saw the aspirational working classes become affluent and successful middle classes in truly staggering numbers, and there was the concept of real-wage and domestic stability.

And why this should apply to Thailand, is that there can be an aspirational working-class here too, and a blossoming middle-class. But it requires serious investment in infrastructure, industry, manufacturing. It also requires a US style citizens-rights document which enshrines in all citizens the godgiven right to work for a real wage, enough to support your family and home, without having to resort to borrowing. And to be able to climb the ladder thusly. There is no actual physical reason why real-wage economics can not apply worldwide, the thing that is holding it back is that many politicians fear the middle class, and dread the aspirational working class. But a government which invests wisely in industry, infrastructure and real-wage economics will see a healthy and contented workforce which is upwardly mobile. It doesn't require the elites to be stripped of their money and have it distributed. It requires the elites to not be in political office, and for the people who are in office to have no fear of the "rising tide that raises all ships."

Re; the OP, its disgusting that reporters are being attacked regardless of their political preferences. I also feel it is wrong to storm or occupy buildings. PTP are in the wrong, and every statement they make simply reaffirms this. The harder they tighten the thumbscrews, the less time they will have in power. There is no need for anything except peaceful mass-demonstration, speechmaking and public challenges for Yingluck to engage in open unscripted and prolonged debate. These people will sink their own ship if you just let them, and offer them the chance to blow it in public debate arena. And if they refuse (as they always have) to engage in debate, then by their silence shall they be damned.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Yunla

[Emptyset]

Most Thaivisa posters will no doubt be familiar with photojournalist Nick Nostitz.

snipped

Is this trivial news going to get airplay on every thread?

Never mind double-posting or even triple-posting, as this is the fourth thread I've seen this brought up.

The photos show he wasn't injured.

Yes, he wasn't badly injured, but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it as trivial. I think the fact that Nick was condemned on Blue Sky TV and pointed out by their website and by the Democrat MP on stage is more significant than the actions of the protesters, which were simply typical of an overwrought mob. It means that anyone that produces a report that the anti-government group disagree with stands to be singled out in the same way. Is that trivial? What if Nattawud had stood on stage denouncing a hypothetical foreign journalist who was known to be somewhat sympathetic to the yellow shirts, and then encouraged the crowd to kick him out? I seriously can't imagine you'd also describe that as trivial.

Problem is most people here think Nick is biased, when they're speaking from a highly partisan perspective themselves. I know I'm biased. Even though I used to be far more sympathetic to the red shirts than I am now and think this government has made many catastrophic errors, I still don't want to see this mob succeed in overthrowing the government. I just can't see that leading to anything positive. Now, if both sides agree on an election date, that's another issue. And I think the government should be ready to call an early election. But 'eradicating the Thaksin regime' sounds like it will involve massive violence and upheaval and any victory following that will be pyrrhic. It's hard to believe there are posters on here who want to see the military involved, knowing the sort of violence that will inevitably ensue after that, who're chattering on about Nick's bias. It's beyond belief.

[Lite Beer]

PM Yingluck calls on intruders to withdraw from state building
By English News

BANGKOK, Nov 25 – Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra today pleaded with anti-government protesters not to intrude into government buildings, an act which is detrimental to tourism and the international community’s confidence in Thailand.

She made the request after former Democrat MP Suthep Thaugsuban led demonstrators in seizing the Finance Ministry. Ms Yingluck said she had never expected such an incident.

The demonstrators have repeatedly announced that they would rally peacefully and refrain from intruding into government buildings, she said.

Calling on the demonstrators’ cooperation, she said a no-confidence debate is scheduled for tomorrow and opponents should use Parliament as a forum to check the government.

“Intrusion into a government building resulted in damages and confidence in Thailand. I extend my moral support to to officials on guard at the building,” she said.

She gave assurances that the seizure of the Finance Ministry will not affect the civil servants’ daily work but “I don’t want this to happen.”

“This is the month of tourism. Lots of tourists travel to Thailand. I don’t want to see a negative impact on Thailand’s overall economy,” she said.

The prime minster said there are laws to deal with such an intrusion, and that security authorities will take into consideration whether they would escalate their peace-keeping actions to cope with the situation. (MCOT online news)

-- TNA 2013-11-25

[Prbkk]

Even accepting your analysis of Reaganomics and the development of the American Middle class, it is drawing a very long bow indeed to in any way suggest that Thailand's circumstances are similar. One major divergence is the whole issue of corruption and it's octopus like stranglehold on this country ( no matter which side is in power). The USA could never have grown in the way it has with conditions in any way comparable to what Thailand faces.

... The only way to increase the middle classes is to distribute the wealth of the elite....

I agree with your post on several levels, but I have <snip> out this line because it is not historically accurate, and it would only be at best a temporary Band-Aid or elastaplast to patch up a gushing wound.

Historically, middle classes have always arrived by the "a rising tide raises all ships" style of social development. Aspirational working classes became middle classes in truly huge numbers, by the successful "real-wage economics" of certain societies (at certain stages.) A "real-wage" for those who don't know, is when a man's one single salary from one single full-time job, pays for his house & car & wife & kids. We saw this in America briefly during the start of the 20th Century, many sociologists including myself have argued successfully that this was the single most successful society in history. Real-wage was the norm, industry & science were subject to relentless investment, and the economy was manufacturing based. This was America's golden age, and came to an end when the control of America switched from the manufacturing industry sector control, to the fiscal oligarch control, Wall Street became the driving force behind the White House, and social templating became increasingly geared towards stocks and derivatives and soforth, while industry declined. Now to the point where Obama's inner team are 90% former Wall Street bankers, and he has no representatives from heavy industry etc. at all. When industry rules the US, nobody borrowed money, people had real-wages, but when the bankers took over wages nosedived and borrowing became the alternative.

Why this is relevant is that while manufacturing and heavy industry were in the driving seat at the White House, in the early 20thC, we saw the aspirational working classes become affluent and successful middle classes in truly staggering numbers, and there was the concept of real-wage and domestic stability.

And why this should apply to Thailand, is that there can be an aspirational working-class here too, and a blossoming middle-class. But it requires serious investment in infrastructure, industry, manufacturing. It also requires a US style citizens-rights document which enshrines in all citizens the godgiven right to work for a real wage, enough to support your family and home, without having to resort to borrowing. And to be able to climb the ladder thusly. There is no actual physical reason why real-wage economics can not apply worldwide, the thing that is holding it back is that many politicians fear the middle class, and dread the aspirational working class. But a government which invests wisely in industry, infrastructure and real-wage economics will see a healthy and contented workforce which is upwardly mobile. It doesn't require the elites to be stripped of their money and have it distributed. It requires the elites to not be in political office, and for the people who are in office to have no fear of the "rising tide that raises all ships."

Re; the OP, its disgusting that reporters are being attacked regardless of their political preferences. I also feel it is wrong to storm or occupy buildings. PTP are in the wrong, and every statement they make simply reaffirms this. The harder they tighten the thumbscrews, the less time they will have in power. There is no need for anything except peaceful mass-demonstration, speechmaking and public challenges for Yingluck to engage in open unscripted and prolonged debate. These people will sink their own ship if you just let them, and offer them the chance to blow it in public debate arena. And if they refuse (as they always have) to engage in debate, then by their silence shall they be damned.

[rebelplatoon]

Funny how they are always being referred to as the Elite and Middle class. 180.000 People in Bangkok protesting???! Lest we forget: this movement must have support from other ranks than just the Elite and Middle class..... If 50.000 red shirts protest it's the farmers and poor protesting. If 180.000 mixed shirts protest it's the Elite....

[oldsailor35]

Hopefully the baht will take a nice depreciation drop.

wich will also be bad for Thailand, on wich side are you ??

If farang personages are truely only interested in the exchange rate against their pensions they should consider moving to Zimbabwe you will get a far better exchange rate

As a director of a Thai registered company, and am importer. I personally gain if the baht strengthens. But then again, I am not so selfish.

I just want what is best for the Thai people and the Thai economy and I will recoup my losses from a healthier consumer market.

Under this regime, no way will this country improve.

And under Suthep, the great corruptor, what then ?????

[jayboy]

So you and Khun Korn have completely different reactions to the thuggish assault on a journalist.His was honourable and gentlemanly.Yours is snide and unpleasant and devoid of class.Still I'm guessing you are not an Old Wykehamist like Korn, his school motto being Manners Makkyth Man.

I see your still sticking to the formula of misdirecting topics and commenting on posters instead of topics, lucky I didn't make a spelling mistake or you would put on your spelling natzi hat too. To say I have little respect for 'Nikolaus Freiherr von Nostitz' the prince of Silesia and his bias work is an understatement.

I don't think I have ever been a spelling "natzi".

As for Nick Nostitz, a brave and talented journalist, his work speaks for itself.It's straightforward however to recognise who has class - and who does not.

[myan]

Most Thaivisa posters will no doubt be familiar with photojournalist Nick Nostitz.

snipped

Is this trivial news going to get airplay on every thread?

Never mind double-posting or even triple-posting, as this is the fourth thread I've seen this brought up.

The photos show he wasn't injured.

Yes, he wasn't badly injured, but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it as trivial.

Yes, he wasn't badly injured. The photos I saw showed no injury at all.

But before delving too much into this, is it possible for the mods to decide which of the 4 threads this is considered on-topic so that it can be reasonably discussed without all the hassles of quadruple posting replies.

.

Edited November 25, 2013 by myan

[hellodolly]

Disneyland. If these bandits overturn this government, then th "reds" will do bad things, worse than 2010. This is the only way the so called Democrats ever can form a government. They will never win it by election.

Lets see now 180,000 anti PTP 50,000 Pro PTP

Who did you say was going to win the election?

A series of protests by the royalist "Yellow Shirts" helped to trigger the coup that toppled Thaksin, who now lives in self-imposed exile in Dubai to avoid a prison term for corruption that he contends was politically motivated.

So his defense is he was politically motivated to be corrupt?

[Pi Sek]

Most Thaivisa posters will no doubt be familiar with photojournalist Nick Nostitz. After Bluesky TV had a section devoted to him insisiting he works for the reds (total nonsense as we know), unfortunately it then appears Nick was assaulted (not sure how badly injured he is) after being singled out by a Democrat MP from the stage:

Anasuya ‏@Anasuya 2h

Democrat MP Chumpon pointed him out from the protest stage calling him a "red shirt journalist" and urged the crowd to kick him out.

Anasuya ‏@Anasuya 2h

Nick said it was seconds before the first fists hit him. He is filing charges and this rules out him covering the yellow protests

He also appears to have been singled out on the Blue SkyTV FB page: https://www.facebook.com/BLUESKYChannel/posts/406698986099538

Anyway, people complaining that the anti-govt protests are not receiving coverage. Well, they were on Channel 3 last night. It'd be understandable if Channel 3 were reluctant to show them again though after they apparently forced their way in and demanded that Sorrayuth blow a whistle and apologize...

Sunai ‏@sunaibkk 49m

Getting disgusting! While Sorayuth urged for peaceful expression & respect for different opinions, protesters demanded him to apologize.

Sunai ‏@sunaibkk 46m

Protesters demanding Sorayuth to blow a whistle, handed to him by Democrat politician. > #Intimidation

The propaganda war, and by extension the media, is in part responsible for all of the troubles we see in Thailand. It's why facts don't matter a lot of the time - because people believe in what they've heard.

However, under no circumstance is it acceptable to beat up a member of the press. Arrest him for defamation, lese majeste, incitement, whatever else if there's good cause, but you don't "exact the Law" through physical violence. Nick, you may be wrong, you may fight for the side of evil (in a contest between 2 evils!) and whatever else... but get well soon.

[rwdrwdrwd]

Look at it from the bright side. The South is quiet. No bombings, no soldiers murdered, no teachers and children beheaded. All the scum have been sent to Bangkok by the Democrat Party. Foreign journalists are attacked like in 2010 accused by Democrat congressmen of being red shirt supporters and three ministeries are ransacked.

Anyone wants more proof that yellow shirts are undemocratic and narcissists?

Showing some tragic ignorance there... you realise that the South does not mean the 3 provinces far down in the Deep South right? Not the same people or agenda, at all.

[Emptyset]

Even accepting your analysis of Reaganomics and the development of the American Middle class, it is drawing a very long bow indeed to in any way suggest that Thailand's circumstances are similar. One major divergence is the whole issue of corruption and it's octopus like stranglehold on this country ( no matter which side is in power). The USA could never have grown in the way it has with conditions in any way comparable to what Thailand faces.

I don't want to say too much about this because it's off topic but I think the US must've been as corrupt as Thailand is now during the 19th century, early 20th century? It's not like corruption is specific to Thailand. Certainly there's nothing in modern day Thai politics that would shock anyone familiar with the UK's democratic development. In fact there was a documentary made a while back about an election campaign in the US, 'Street Fight' (google it if you're interested, it might even be on youtube) and it's hard to believe some of the things that go on over there in election campaigns even today. I watched this with a Thai friend who commented 'Wow, is the US really like this? It's like Thailand or worse'.

Then we could discuss the influence of big business and lobbyists and whether that should also be considered corruption. The point is, throughout all this, the US has stuck to its firm belief in democracy, and I believe Thailand should do the same. Most people who want to challenge corporate influence in the US are calling for more democracy, not less. Sticking to democratic procedures will pay off in the long run. Yes, you'll inevitably get governments that are corrupt and despised by some of the populace, but don't throw out the baby with the bath water...

Also I think many posters tend to underestimate the progress that Thailand has made. In the early 90s politicians *were* outright gangsters (remember the MP that got taken out by a rocket launcher?) and vote buying was rampant. Now politics has become professionalized to a large extent, provincial godfathers have far less influence and vote buying has much less impact than it used to. Just stick with it.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Emptyset

[hellodolly]

Hopefully the baht will take a nice depreciation drop.

wich will also be bad for Thailand, on wich side are you ??

If farang personages are truely only interested in the exchange rate against their pensions they should consider moving to Zimbabwe you will get a far better exchange rate

As a director of a Thai registered company, and am importer. I personally gain if the baht strengthens. But then again, I am not so selfish.

I just want what is best for the Thai people and the Thai economy and I will recoup my losses from a healthier consumer market.

Under this regime, no way will this country improve.

So true. How any one could think of a government who has done nothing good for Thailand in 2 years has spent the time trying to turn it into a dictatorship by white washing a man who tried to become the dictator once before and the Army had to step in.

Do thinking people really believe a government like that could do a 180 degree turn around and start cleaning up corruption and trying to help the people they are supposed to be serving. (the population of Thailand) I had to put that in because believe it or not there are posters here on Thai Visa who really honestly believe the government is supposed to be serving Thaksin Shinawatra.

Yes I know hard to believe but it is true.

[rametindallas]

And there goes the beginning of the end.

The only question is the end of who....but it looks like the end.....

On the other hand how long was the PAD at government house?

PAD ruined its reputation with many when they invaded (and looted) government offices. Suthep's group has now lost any 'high ground' they might have claimed over the Red Shirt movement of 2010.

I guess we will now find out how strong Thaksin's paid Red Shirt army is to take it back for Thaksin. What a effed up situation.

[Thai at Heart]

Even accepting your analysis of Reaganomics and the development of the American Middle class, it is drawing a very long bow indeed to in any way suggest that Thailand's circumstances are similar. One major divergence is the whole issue of corruption and it's octopus like stranglehold on this country ( no matter which side is in power). The USA could never have grown in the way it has with conditions in any way comparable to what Thailand faces.

I don't want to say too much about this because it's off topic but I think the US must've been as corrupt as Thailand is now during the 19th century, early 20th century? It's not like corruption is specific to Thailand. Certainly there's nothing in modern day Thai politics that would shock anyone familiar with the UK's democratic development. In fact there was a documentary made a while back about an election campaign in the US, 'Street Fight' (google it if you're interested, it might even be on youtube) and it's hard to believe some of the things that go on over there in election campaigns even today. I watched this with a Thai friend who commented 'Wow, is the US really like this? It's like Thailand or worse'.

Then we could discuss the influence of big business and lobbyists and whether that should also be considered corruption. The point is, throughout all this, the US has stuck to its firm belief in democracy, and I believe Thailand should do the same. Most people who want to challenge corporate influence in the US are calling for more democracy, not less. Sticking to democratic procedures will pay off in the long run. Yes, you'll inevitably get governments that are corrupt and despised by some of the populace, but don't throw out the baby with the bath water...

Also I think many posters tend to underestimate the progress that Thailand has made. In the early 90s politicians *were* outright gangsters (remember the MP that got taken out by a rocket launcher?) and vote buying was rampant. Now politics has become professionalized to a large extent, provincial godfathers have far less influence and vote buying has much less impact than it used to. Just stick with it.

What Thailand lacks is politicians with real political beliefs and economic beliefs. You can be completely right wing, you an be completely left, or down the middle, but all 3 voices need to be represented in politics to bring balance to the discussion. You can argue that free markets solve the problem or a country should be social in its ideology, but all of these views need some airing.

The only view that gets aired is "how can the major existing companies and relatives in the provinces get paid". Nothing changes, nothing gets reformed. Protecting the status quo outweighs ANYTHING. So you have Thaksin the great corrupt businessman fighting with the democrats who are essentially another bunch of corrupt businessmen.

How incongruous is it that Thaksin is the champion of the poor? And Suthep or Chuwit being the overthrower of corruption? Have you ever though how ludicrous this is? The political class has been taking the piss out of this country forever.

[hellodolly]

Catch 22, there are simply too many poor, under privileged people in the country who can vote. There is no chance the yellow shirts can win an election and they know it. Greed and self indulgence from the elite have been dragging down any chance of common ground here since the beginning of time. The middle classes are woefully in the minority, the elite are all military, privy or royal. To bridge the gap something needs to give. The only way to increase the middle classes is to distribute the wealth of the elite. Chances are? This only leads to one outcome, coup! Thaksin is elite, however his greed is all about power. He uses the poor to gain his power, where as the military elite suppress the poor for financial gain. There may be a time where the gap closes and a party who have both parties interest at heart will emerge however it is no time soon.

I suspect you have never heard of the Democrats.

Yes I know the uninformed are going to be saying the Democrats had their chance. Well the informed people know that they had to constantly cater to other parties or they would pull their support out. They were being neutralized by people only being interested in money. If they had the support the PTP has They would still be in office.

[Thait Spot]

Look at it from the bright side. The South is quiet. No bombings, no soldiers murdered, no teachers and children beheaded. All the scum have been sent to Bangkok by the Democrat Party. Foreign journalists are attacked like in 2010 accused by Democrat congressmen of being red shirt supporters and three ministeries are ransacked. 

 

Anyone wants more proof that yellow shirts are undemocratic and narcissists?

Look at it on the bright side. No front page space for insurgents.

Now please tell me how many yellow shirts you can see?

And then list the thousands of everyday groups from society that are there

If your cornflakes smell of urine, it was another group that is responsible

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[hellodolly]

Even accepting your analysis of Reaganomics and the development of the American Middle class, it is drawing a very long bow indeed to in any way suggest that Thailand's circumstances are similar. One major divergence is the whole issue of corruption and it's octopus like stranglehold on this country ( no matter which side is in power). The USA could never have grown in the way it has with conditions in any way comparable to what Thailand faces.

I don't want to say too much about this because it's off topic but I think the US must've been as corrupt as Thailand is now during the 19th century, early 20th century? It's not like corruption is specific to Thailand. Certainly there's nothing in modern day Thai politics that would shock anyone familiar with the UK's democratic development. In fact there was a documentary made a while back about an election campaign in the US, 'Street Fight' (google it if you're interested, it might even be on youtube) and it's hard to believe some of the things that go on over there in election campaigns even today. I watched this with a Thai friend who commented 'Wow, is the US really like this? It's like Thailand or worse'.

Then we could discuss the influence of big business and lobbyists and whether that should also be considered corruption. The point is, throughout all this, the US has stuck to its firm belief in democracy, and I believe Thailand should do the same. Most people who want to challenge corporate influence in the US are calling for more democracy, not less. Sticking to democratic procedures will pay off in the long run. Yes, you'll inevitably get governments that are corrupt and despised by some of the populace, but don't throw out the baby with the bath water...

Also I think many posters tend to underestimate the progress that Thailand has made. In the early 90s politicians *were* outright gangsters (remember the MP that got taken out by a rocket launcher?) and vote buying was rampant. Now politics has become professionalized to a large extent, provincial godfathers have far less influence and vote buying has much less impact than it used to. Just stick with it.

What Thailand lacks is politicians with real political beliefs and economic beliefs. You can be completely right wing, you an be completely left, or down the middle, but all 3 voices need to be represented in politics to bring balance to the discussion. You can argue that free markets solve the problem or a country should be social in its ideology, but all of these views need some airing.

The only view that gets aired is "how can the major existing companies and relatives in the provinces get paid". Nothing changes, nothing gets reformed. Protecting the status quo outweighs ANYTHING. So you have Thaksin the great corrupt businessman fighting with the democrats who are essentially another bunch of corrupt businessmen.

How incongruous is it that Thaksin is the champion of the poor? And Suthep or Chuwit being the overthrower of corruption? Have you ever though how ludicrous this is? The political class has been taking the piss out of this country forever.

Yes all three have to be heard. Unfortunately it makes no difference because hard to believe but a man living in Dubai is paying enough people to do what he wants and he is telling them to ignore any one else.

[Thai at Heart]

Even accepting your analysis of Reaganomics and the development of the American Middle class, it is drawing a very long bow indeed to in any way suggest that Thailand's circumstances are similar. One major divergence is the whole issue of corruption and it's octopus like stranglehold on this country ( no matter which side is in power). The USA could never have grown in the way it has with conditions in any way comparable to what Thailand faces.

I don't want to say too much about this because it's off topic but I think the US must've been as corrupt as Thailand is now during the 19th century, early 20th century? It's not like corruption is specific to Thailand. Certainly there's nothing in modern day Thai politics that would shock anyone familiar with the UK's democratic development. In fact there was a documentary made a while back about an election campaign in the US, 'Street Fight' (google it if you're interested, it might even be on youtube) and it's hard to believe some of the things that go on over there in election campaigns even today. I watched this with a Thai friend who commented 'Wow, is the US really like this? It's like Thailand or worse'.

Then we could discuss the influence of big business and lobbyists and whether that should also be considered corruption. The point is, throughout all this, the US has stuck to its firm belief in democracy, and I believe Thailand should do the same. Most people who want to challenge corporate influence in the US are calling for more democracy, not less. Sticking to democratic procedures will pay off in the long run. Yes, you'll inevitably get governments that are corrupt and despised by some of the populace, but don't throw out the baby with the bath water...

Also I think many posters tend to underestimate the progress that Thailand has made. In the early 90s politicians *were* outright gangsters (remember the MP that got taken out by a rocket launcher?) and vote buying was rampant. Now politics has become professionalized to a large extent, provincial godfathers have far less influence and vote buying has much less impact than it used to. Just stick with it.

What Thailand lacks is politicians with real political beliefs and economic beliefs. You can be completely right wing, you an be completely left, or down the middle, but all 3 voices need to be represented in politics to bring balance to the discussion. You can argue that free markets solve the problem or a country should be social in its ideology, but all of these views need some airing.

The only view that gets aired is "how can the major existing companies and relatives in the provinces get paid". Nothing changes, nothing gets reformed. Protecting the status quo outweighs ANYTHING. So you have Thaksin the great corrupt businessman fighting with the democrats who are essentially another bunch of corrupt businessmen.

How incongruous is it that Thaksin is the champion of the poor? And Suthep or Chuwit being the overthrower of corruption? Have you ever though how ludicrous this is? The political class has been taking the piss out of this country forever.

Yes all three have to be heard. Unfortunately it makes no difference because hard to believe but a man living in Dubai is paying enough people to do what he wants and he is telling them to ignore any one else.

Not really. So get rid of Thaksin and the country is left with Suthep and his bunch. Wow, now I'm feeling really hopeful. Someone please sort this country out.

[Bluespunk]

Disneyland. If these bandits overturn this government, then th "reds" will do bad things, worse than 2010. This is the only way the so called Democrats ever can form a government. They will never win it by election.

Yeah, I love the name "Democrats." So reminiscent of the North Korean propaganda I read.

As are the hollow claims of the UDD to be acting in defense of democracy.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Bluespunk

[Loles]

Yingluck calls Thaksin:

Y: You can see, how much problem you made me with your pushy return to TH.

T: Mai pen rai my sister. Don't worry!

Y: But the protesters captured a ministry also.

T: Which one?

Y: Finance ministry.

T: You have to take the army right now, there are many many sensitive files.

Y: Mai pen rai my brother, I follow you as soon as possible.

T: But don't forget the bags! You understand, are you?

Y: The bags are ready, don't worry at all!

T: Wait! Wait! Wait! And who will the next PM? The red clown team will elect us again.

Y: You know we have a cusin, our mother's sisters' anunt's son's grandson. You know the small Surasak Shinawatra.

T: I know him, but he can't speak at all, and he is dumb as he can!

Y: Mai pen rai my brother, he gets 2 experts to help him by skype.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Loles

[rametindallas]

Hopefully the baht will take a nice depreciation drop.

wich will also be bad for Thailand, on wich side are you ??

For the last several years, every major economy has been devaluing their currency while, at the same time, Thailand has been strengthening theirs. Can anyone explain the logic of that? My Bangladeshi tailor has claimed for years that 36 - 38 Baht to the Dollar is good for tourism (the bulk of his business). That exchange rate would save the export business which is suffering to the point of disappearing (it would make it easier to sell rice, also), and that rate wouldn't destroy that part of the country's economy dependent on imports e.g. electricity from Myanmar and oil from Singapore, et. al. Depreciation of the Baht would affect inflation less than the 300 Baht minimum wages law. The Thai economy has been overheated for some years now e.g. 0.5% unemployment rate and raising the interest rates would slow the economy to a sustainable level while, at the same time, attracting foreign investment. I tend to agree with my Bangladeshi tailor but for different reasons; he want the depreciation for his own business and I think the depreciation would benefit all of Thailand. Of course, I may be wrong.

[rubl]

If Nick Nostitz (sp?) getting beaten up is the only violence during these protests, we should be grateful. However, I do NOT condone it in any way.

However, it is a good publicity stunt for himself. " Look what those thugs did to me!" etc.

He should have known that there was real risk to his person by being spotted. Could almost be construed as provocation.

The reds accuse the media of distorting events related to them. I have never read any of Nick's work, but going by what other have said,

he distorts events as well.

If you are a true journalist, you do not offer advice on what should happen to people doing something.

Your task is to report: What, where, when, who which is based on facts. 'Why' is subjective interpretation of facts.

Around 5PM I saw (almost missed I might say) 15 seconds of fame on channel7. Nick was pointing to his right cheek. He looked in good health, so no need to worry about him.

It is not good this incident, but with Nick's history understandable. I wonder in what 'ability' he was present as records show him to be an 'independent reporter/journalist'. Who issues 'permits' or in general rules on who may legally 'report' and be entitled to whatever protection that may give one?

[BigC]

I'd love to see this government fall and held accountable for anything they've done but I'm not sure this is the way to go about it. It depends on what they do next as there's a risk of it becoming violent.

 

It would be interesting to see what the government would do if the protesters caused as much trouble as in 2010 but that wouldn't help those who live and work in Bangkok.

As much as I don't like yingluck as she has made bad decisions i cannot help but feel bad for the reds as if they win the elections many times but the army throw their pm out of power then what is the point in voting

On the other hand charging Sutep and Abbist with murder is a ridiculous attempt of revenge is only going to make anti government More stronger

Then with Yingluck changing the law to get her bother back was always what all this was about

Now this shall either be stopped sharpesh by he army or this could be he biggest clash of reds and yellows yet

Why does Taksin just not be a man and do his 2 years u am sure that with his money he could have a comfortable cell and life then that would be that

Unless these forces compromise somewhere then this shall not end until Taksin is felt with

He should hand him self into The Hague if he wants a fare trail but he is running

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

[Yunla]

Even accepting your analysis of Reaganomics and the development of the American Middle class, it is drawing a very long bow indeed to in any way suggest that Thailand's circumstances are similar. One major divergence is the whole issue of corruption and it's octopus like stranglehold on this country ( no matter which side is in power). The USA could never have grown in the way it has with conditions in any way comparable to what Thailand faces.

Well firstly I am not talking about Reaganomics, I am if anything talking about the 'New Deal' era of the early 1930's upto the 'Great Society' era of the 1960's. The drive to recover from the Depression, invest in industry, ostracise the conservatives who were an anchor around the legs of the manufacturing economy. While everything is easier in hindsight and Roosevelt has a lot of critics, this was an era of great progress and change, incredible feats of engineering, railways and manufacturing and yes a blossoming middle class. This is especially remarkable considering the truly dark era that preceded it. And while there was not equality for all, and racism was mainstream, in terms of industry and upward mobility this age was truly a golden age, from which the US has only headed downhill since.

This also chimes in with your other point re; how does it relate to Thailand, as Roosevelt's "New Deal" era arrived on the back of the crippling depression, mass-poverty and anarchy in the streets. What it took to pull the US back from the brink was a man with a vision, and the vision was an all-out manufacturing economy, heavy industry, and full-wage rights for workers. Many many people on Thaivisa including myself, have said that all Thailand needs is a new leader with a vision for reform and the guts to go through with it. And in Thailand's case, as you so rightly pointed out, the vision would have to include as a starting position a total corruption null-point, an uprooting of the whole rotten tree, starting at the top and working down. It can be done it would just take a leader with a titanium backbone and unwavering conviction. We don't have any such leader in the public sphere, as far as I know. But that is what it would take. Also worth mentioning is that corruption is a by-product of inadequate full-wage employment, so you would crack down on corrupt politicians, officials, police, and work down to corruption in business, starting at the top. While investing in infrastructure and industry so that people who want to earn a fair wage can do so without having to resort to crime in the first place. But it takes leadership, it takes a rare and brave leader to tackle the enormous ****storm that is coming down. I pray frequently that we will see such a leader eventually.

But that is the whole problem I have with the actions in the OP. Storming buildings and hitting photographers is not what is needed. A leader with progressive thinking and the courage to fight for those ideals in the political arena, is what is needed. They will face overwhelming odds in their battle against corruption, it is a mammoth task, but history shows us that nations on the brink of disaster can turn the corner, like in the New Deal era.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Yunla