Thai Police say no high-level politicians found involved in rice mortgage graft yet

[pkspeaker]

more hubris and bullshit accusations in response to my last post, like there is

this 'missing 500 billion baht'

-or-

millions of tons of rice is missing

they then suggest that Yingluck and co. STOLE all of this money, none of this crap is backed up by anything.. The NaCC had made the accusation that there was missing rice , but Yingluck's lawyers countered that, that it was a false accusation..'post audit accounting'

I find it laughable that tons of rice was stolen out of these warehouses and then secretly sold with 'fake G2G deals' and then Yingluck pocketed all this cash, there gonna be alot of data we can't see so it's easy to make bogus accusations,but anyone with some common sense can see that it's bullshit politics.

The article we are responding to shows that the investigators, even after the coup removed 'pro-phuathai cops' from the scene; are turning up craps in this 'rice scam' investigation.

The only thing that happened here is that the subsidy was more expensive than what 'some' politicians had billed it to be, some cost overruns, it's still a small part of the budget, at most t's 5% because the rice is being sold,just at a loss-it depends on how much is sold and at what the global market price is, .. compare that to the budget of infrastructure projects, security/defense spending, it's negligible, a cost overrun is not 'corruption'

Take into consideration that all this 'lost money' is being lost INTERNALLY , that means taxpayer money goes to rice farmer which spends the money again inside Thailand..so the country doesn't really get 'poorer' as a result of these 'huge losses'

COMPARE that to Abhisit buying a used, useless AIRCRAFT CARRIER from Spain (which was never used because it was too expensive and difficult to operate), and fake bomb detectors from the UK.. In that case your taking taxpayer money, raw capital, and sending it to Europe so they can send you back their GARBAGE. he knew which slice of bread to butter i'll give him that much.

and again there is no 'corruption' in any of this, unless you can PROVE (for example) that Abhisit, Suthep and co. personally profited from these defense purchases, or that Yingluck and co. personally profited from the agricultural subsidies.. it's just a case of 'bad policy' which is opinionated.

There was NO real corruption in the Yingluck administration, there was no corruption at the cabinet level, the corruption in this country is way down the ladder from that, false accusations of corruption are being used to derail democratically elected governments, you can fool some of the people some of the time, but Pryuth has already said another election will happen with 15 months, and we all know that the PT will win it because most of the people know this is balouny.

[scorecard]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Since high level politicians are not involved in any corruption, then how does all these billions of baht suddenly appear in their bank accounts.

You tell us. You obviously know, right? Please let us know what politicians have had "billions of baht suddenly appear in their bank accounts" alt=coffee1.gif width=32 height=24>

Are you George, Paul, Ringo or John?

now now lets not associate truly legendary musician's /song writers with the likes of "Fab4", who is legendary only in his own imagination

I repeat my earlier post to fabie.......... no reply, silence.......

On the other hand fabie, you have access to every little detail of everything, so you come up with a detailed accounting of every baht and where every baht is right now and in full detail and with proof.

This is activity by the government, therefore all details should be readily available and with fully transparency, so not too difficult for you to find, especially with you access. 'State secrets' doesn't wash and never will and in any case goes against the high principles of strong democracy as espoused a million times by the pt and udd.

No doubt with your access you can find the details in a second and prove that nobody has benefitted other than the poor famers (many of whom waited 8 months to be paid) .

Waiting for your detailed report.

[robblok]

more hubris and bullshit accusations in response to my last post, like there is

this 'missing 500 billion baht'

-or-

millions of tons of rice is missing

they then suggest that Yingluck and co. STOLE all of this money, none of this crap is backed up by anything.. The NaCC had made the accusation that there was missing rice , but Yingluck's lawyers countered that, that it was a false accusation..'post audit accounting'

I find it laughable that tons of rice was stolen out of these warehouses and then secretly sold with 'fake G2G deals' and then Yingluck pocketed all this cash, there gonna be alot of data we can't see so it's easy to make bogus accusations,but anyone with some common sense can see that it's bullshit politics.

The article we are responding to shows that the investigators, even after the coup removed 'pro-phuathai cops' from the scene; are turning up craps in this 'rice scam' investigation.

The only thing that happened here is that the subsidy was more expensive than what 'some' politicians had billed it to be, some cost overruns, it's still a small part of the budget, at most t's 5% because the rice is being sold,just at a loss-it depends on how much is sold and at what the global market price is, .. compare that to the budget of infrastructure projects, security/defense spending, it's negligible, a cost overrun is not 'corruption'

Take into consideration that all this 'lost money' is being lost INTERNALLY , that means taxpayer money goes to rice farmer which spends the money again inside Thailand..so the country doesn't really get 'poorer' as a result of these 'huge losses'

COMPARE that to Abhisit buying a used, useless AIRCRAFT CARRIER from Spain (which was never used because it was too expensive and difficult to operate), and fake bomb detectors from the UK.. In that case your taking taxpayer money, raw capital, and sending it to Europe so they can send you back their GARBAGE. he knew which slice of bread to butter i'll give him that much.

and again there is no 'corruption' in any of this, unless you can PROVE (for example) that Abhisit, Suthep and co. personally profited from these defense purchases, or that Yingluck and co. personally profited from the agricultural subsidies.. it's just a case of 'bad policy' which is opinionated.

There was NO real corruption in the Yingluck administration, there was no corruption at the cabinet level, the corruption in this country is way down the ladder from that, false accusations of corruption are being used to derail democratically elected governments, you can fool some of the people some of the time, but Pryuth has already said another election will happen with 15 months, and we all know that the PT will win it because most of the people know this is balouny.

Just a short counter, because its so easy to counter red propaganda.

The rice scheme was budgeted as 0 or making a profit according to Taksin. So they made a loss because they overspend their budget grossly. Had they budgeted it then there would not have been a problem. However they had already stretched their budget to the limit with the max deficit allowable.

The reason why YL and others did not want the cost (loss) to be known is that they then had to amend the budget and that means cutting other popular policies and things they could steal money from.

The facts don't lie.. but the PTP does.

So yes its a loss because they stated it would be zero, so a loss and gross overspending.

The corruption part they are busy proving it, don't worry it will come to light.

Edited May 31, 2014 by robblok

[pkspeaker]

There is no 'proof' that PT politicians 'stole money' , the coup-establishment-biased nacc never accused them of this, all they said was that Yingluck 'knew corruption existed and did nothing to stop it' hence she was charged with 'dereliction of duty' The nacc did not previously prosecute anyone of graft in relation to the rice pledging program., which makes their case against her very weak. Wasn't the nacc 'derelict in its duty' when it never prosecuted rice pledging graft? i mean that's their job, not hers especially since it claims graft was occurring at 'every level'?

Where is the proof or source of the accusations of graft by PT MP's? it doesn't exist.

Where is the graft? this article says " based on current information, there were 10 cases that were under investigation by officials, and that all of the cases involved counterfeiting of rice mortgage documents – primarily the warehouse receipts."

in other words they are not finding significant graft here, just 10 forged documents, some low level scam-maybe! its still maybe at this point, AND they havn't prosecuted A SINGLE PERSON for it yet, for 6 months they investigate this and not 1 person , other than Yingluck, has been indicted, but the NaCC said there was massive graft here-its a bunch of bullshit.. I never heard of rice pledging corruption before the protests started in November, once the protests started they desperately had to come up with anything to hang the government on, this balouny was the best they could come up with and the transfer of 1 person--the big corruption.

Yingluck and the PT never 'stole money' from 'other projects' what is your source of all this graft as not even the nacc is charging anyone with this? your making the accusations, so you come up with the source.. we're looking for something like where someone 'stole' rice, or embezzled money from government coffers..where is this? you keep saying it happened, but the investigators are coming up craps, thats what this article is about.

it will 'come to light' WHEN, its been 6 months!

If the Shinawatras wanted to make money they would have stayed out of politics in the first place, Thaksin has had 2/3s of his assets seized, he's in this for the money?

Edited May 31, 2014 by pkspeaker

[pkspeaker]

What is your source..you claim the PT, Yingluck said the rice pledging program would not cost anything and they guaranteed this, when and where did they say this.. i think it was more expensive then they thought- its called a cost overrun.. NONE of that is corruption anymore than Abhists aircraft carrier.. slopy policy is not 'corruption'

[pkspeaker]

Notice the wording the NaCC uses.. its [an] inquiry into the damage caused by the last government’s rice pledging scheme, during the supervision of the former Minister of Commerce Niwatthamrong Boonsongpaisan and former Deputy Minister of Commerce, Yanyong Puangrach.

an inquiry into the damage caused by the the rice pledging scheme.. so.. there's no 'graft' they're just saying the program was 'damaging', in other words it was 'too expensive' so it was damaging.. they then get a bunch of high level people to 'testify' to this 'damage' a total sham.. the only reason this case exists is so they can slap Yingluck with a political Ban, because they know she will win the next election whenever it eventually takes place.

NACC resuming inquiry into rice pledging scheme

BANGKOK, 31 May 2014, (NNT) - The National Anti Corruption Commission (NACC) Secretary General Sansern Poljiak, has announced that his agency is about to resume its inquiry into the damage caused by the last government’s rice pledging scheme, during the supervision of the former Minister of Commerce Niwatthamrong Boonsongpaisan and former Deputy Minister of Commerce, Yanyong Puangrach.

An additional four witnesses are to be questioned by the investigators.

According to the NACC, the inquiry of the Director General of the Department of Internal Trade Somchart Soithong resumes on Tuesday June 3rd at 1.30 pm, while Mr. Kulit Sombutsiri, an Inspector of the Ministry of Finance, is scheduled to attend the inquiry at 1.30 pm the following day.

On Thursday at 9.30 am, Mr. Rangsang Sriworasart, Permanent Secretary of the Ministry of Finance would attend the inquiry, the NACC stated, adding that the week’s investigations would end with the testimony of the Managing Director of the Bank of Agriculture and Agricultural Cooperatives on Friday June 6th at 9.30 AM.

Edited May 31, 2014 by pkspeaker

[bigbamboo]

Not surprising as this investigation is more focusing on the "nuts and bolts" of the scam. The thing is not to prove that they were involved, but more that they were aware of it.

I wonder what Supa has to say about this though?

Oh that's right she won't dribble information out as the investigation by the NACC is progressing. The NACC will wait until it has fully completed its investigation and present its findings.

That is the one I am looking forward to.

I agree.

The key word being 'YET'.

The NACC are looking at the whole structure of money movement and where all of it has ended up.

The police findings have just added to the paper trail and unearthed previously unmentioned techniques of fraud.

The bigger picture is that claims were made at the highest government levels, and that includes Finance and Commerce ministers releasing statements of which will soon be proven lies.

The government have had the luxury of 7 months to hide stuff and destroy all incriminating evidence that points directly at the upper structures.

But rest assured that missing evidence (and there must be lots) will be just as guilt bearing as a smoking gun.

It is the money that can't be hidden or destroyed as it always leaves a paper trail and the majority of the missing cash will have been transferred electronically... you can't just carry hundreds of billions of baht around, and even if you could, the paper trail would stop at YOU.... All money is documented right up to it hitting a person's palm.

I'm inclined to agree. 'Yet' may be police code for "Scram, the game's up."

Even with the most generous nature it's hard to believe that with the billions that went missing only a few minor villains have been fiddling the receipts.

[Crushdepth]

There is no 'proof' that PT politicians 'stole money' , the coup-establishment-biased nacc never accused them of this, all they said was that Yingluck 'knew corruption existed and did nothing to stop it' hence she was charged with 'dereliction of duty' The nacc did not previously prosecute anyone of graft in relation to the rice pledging program., which makes their case against her very weak. Wasn't the nacc 'derelict in its duty' when it never prosecuted rice pledging graft? i mean that's their job, not hers especially since it claims graft was occurring at 'every level'?

Where is the proof or source of the accusations of graft by PT MP's? it doesn't exist.

Where is the graft? this article says " based on current information, there were 10 cases that were under investigation by officials, and that all of the cases involved counterfeiting of rice mortgage documents – primarily the warehouse receipts."

in other words they are not finding significant graft here, just 10 forged documents, some low level scam-maybe! its still maybe at this point, AND they havn't prosecuted A SINGLE PERSON for it yet, for 6 months they investigate this and not 1 person , other than Yingluck, has been indicted, but the NaCC said there was massive graft here-its a bunch of bullshit.. I never heard of rice pledging corruption before the protests started in November, once the protests started they desperately had to come up with anything to hang the government on, this balouny was the best they could come up with and the transfer of 1 person--the big corruption.

Yingluck and the PT never 'stole money' from 'other projects' what is your source of all this graft as not even the nacc is charging anyone with this? your making the accusations, so you come up with the source.. we're looking for something like where someone 'stole' rice, or embezzled money from government coffers..where is this? you keep saying it happened, but the investigators are coming up craps, thats what this article is about.

it will 'come to light' WHEN, its been 6 months!

If the Shinawatras wanted to make money they would have stayed out of politics in the first place, Thaksin has had 2/3s of his assets seized, he's in this for the money?

NACC has charged plenty of people over the rice scam, including the former commerce minister. Their cases have not yet been heard, as you are well aware. So to say there's no proof of graft is disingenuous. Deliberate misdirection, actually.

Since when is six months a long time for an investigation? If it had been done in less than that you'd be wailing that it had been rushed through and was unfair treatment. Sound familiar?

Only an utter imbecile could believe the rice scam was corruption free. I mean really, this is Thailand for God's sake. When they find the missing 3 million tonnes that is ermmm being milled somewhere...let me know.

[robblok]

What is your source..you claim the PT, Yingluck said the rice pledging program would not cost anything and they guaranteed this, when and where did they say this.. i think it was more expensive then they thought- its called a cost overrun.. NONE of that is corruption anymore than Abhists aircraft carrier.. slopy policy is not 'corruption'

[quote}The plan was simple: Thailand’s government would buy rice from local farmers at a generous price, some 50 percent above the market rates. It would hold the rice in warehouses, cutting off exports to the rest of the world. The sudden shortage from the world’s heavyweight champion of rice exports would cause a spike in global prices. Then, payday for the government as it swung open the warehouse doors and sold its stockpile to the world at a premium. Farmers win, the government wins, foreign consumers lose, but then they don’t vote in Thai elections, so what do they matter? The plan was a political no-brainer, except for one problem: Thailand’s government underestimated how quickly the market can kick back at any would-be puppeteers.[/quote}

http://world.time.com/2013/07/12/how-thailands-botched-rice-scheme-blew-a-big-hole-in-its-economy/

please read the first part I am going to get more info. I am not saying that budget overspending is corruption though you could call it this way if you know your going to overspend but don't want to admit it because else you have to economize.

http://asiancorrespondent.com/77863/has-the-rice-pledging-scheme-cost-300-billion-baht/

Here you see the budget of 260 million baht while it cost 260 billion bath.. 1000 x more

So I am sorry it was not 0 but a paltry 260 million bath while the costs are billions 500 or more but maybe for the first part only 260. That is an 1000x overspending that would ad an extra 50 % to the already 400 billion bath deficit

So yes you are right.. not incompetence.. but that is hiding the facts not wanting to admit the overspending as then they had to cut other parts of the budget.

Million to billion 1000x overspending

Edited May 31, 2014 by robblok

[bigbamboo]

In reality there was very little 'corruption' in the rice pledging farm subsidy.. the notion that 'it incurred billions in losses' is a joke, it's a subsidy, of course 'it incurs losses'.. but ultimately the entire program was maybe 5% of the national budget-with most of this 'wasted money' going to poor farmers- under the Abhisit regime the rice subsidy was the 'Farmers Insurance' program, and what , an 'insurance' subsidy is going to have 0 graft, not-liklyand it was just as expensive as the pledging program.. The entire case against Yingluck and her commerce minister is based on the notion that they 'knew corruption was happening but did nothing to stop it'.. EVERY entitlement program is going to have some 'corruption', this article is proof that the 'corruption' wasn't that bad, just a few forged documents.

the entire smear campaign was just a tool for the establishment to sabotage the democratically elected government, notice how as soon as the military took over the farmers were immediately paid because the 'caretaker' government for 6 months was not allowed to pay them, legal restrictions, Banks refusing to give the govt short term loads, and rich Thai's affiliated with the pdrc threatening to run on any bank that loaned money to the government. If it hadn't been the rice pledging 'scheme' then the establishment would have made something else an 'isssue of corruption' like they could have said that there was cost overruns in infrastructure spending and this was 'corruption'.

The RPPs positioned as profitable and 'only' needing a revolving funds for initial payments was a disaster. Even now we only seem to know that 500 billion Baht (i.e. 500,000,000,000) has been lost. Poor farmers still poor, some farmers only being paid after six or more months. No transparency neither responsibility by the Yingluck administration. Utterly criminally negligent.

The possible losses seem to approach the level which would have seen the deficit in the National Budget almost double for THREE years in a row. The wasted money, where is it? Till now no one knows. The only thing we know is that it is NOT with the poor farmers is was meant for.

The Abhisit government 'minimum price guarantee' payable directly to farmers let to complaints that it wasn't enough. Still it went directly to farmers.

The only campaign I see now it some people desperately trying to obfuscate, tell halftruths or even lies.

A Yingluck government which said mid-2013 to need only 270 billion Baht for 2013/2014 RPPS and to have the funding. Many months bills not paid till in December the caretaker government tried to borrow 'only' 130 billion Baht.

Now it seems to become clear why the suddenly 'blanket' amnesty bill covered not only Thaksin's last two years in/out of office, but even the first two years of Yingluck administration. They simply KNEW they would need it.

Lost to whom?

How much was pilfered and how much is simply the difference between the global and paid price?

That is the issue, not the subsidy loss.

So you say it's not clear whether Thaksin and his PT government are guilty of incompetence or corruption... or maybe both?

One thing does seem quite clear though, Thailand is better off without them.

edit typo

Edited May 31, 2014 by bigbamboo

[northernjohn]

They seem to make big progress with 10 out of 250 cases looked at so far.

And don't we all know that the police never find any PTP politicians involved in anything illegal. Wait until the army conduct some investigations

Just like they couldn't catch any attackers and murderers of the anti-PTP protesters either.

Surprising what might happen when the army, NACC and some independent auditors get involved.

Justice

[star kicker]

i am impressed with the efficiency of the coup leaders. in the west corruption investigations take months if not years to complete. if they can get the whole country working this efficiently it would be amazing thailand.

or maybe they havent done any investigation at all and are making unsubstantiated statements...

[Trembly]

i am impressed with the efficiency of the coup leaders. in the west corruption investigations take months if not years to complete. if they can get the whole country working this efficiently it would be amazing thailand.

or maybe they havent done any investigation at all and are making unsubstantiated statements...

Have you ever wondered why corruption investigations and official inquiries in the west (or anywhere, for that matter) take so long to complete - and why they are quite often a whitewash?

[chotthee]

I am sure eventually it will link all the way to Yingluck.

[northernjohn]

I am sure eventually it will link all the way to Yingluck.

I am sure eventually it will link all the way to Yingluck/Thaksin.

[Thai at Heart]

In reality there was very little 'corruption' in the rice pledging farm subsidy.. the notion that 'it incurred billions in losses' is a joke, it's a subsidy, of course 'it incurs losses'.. but ultimately the entire program was maybe 5% of the national budget-with most of this 'wasted money' going to poor farmers- under the Abhisit regime the rice subsidy was the 'Farmers Insurance' program, and what , an 'insurance' subsidy is going to have 0 graft, not-liklyand it was just as expensive as the pledging program.. The entire case against Yingluck and her commerce minister is based on the notion that they 'knew corruption was happening but did nothing to stop it'.. EVERY entitlement program is going to have some 'corruption', this article is proof that the 'corruption' wasn't that bad, just a few forged documents.

the entire smear campaign was just a tool for the establishment to sabotage the democratically elected government, notice how as soon as the military took over the farmers were immediately paid because the 'caretaker' government for 6 months was not allowed to pay them, legal restrictions, Banks refusing to give the govt short term loads, and rich Thai's affiliated with the pdrc threatening to run on any bank that loaned money to the government. If it hadn't been the rice pledging 'scheme' then the establishment would have made something else an 'isssue of corruption' like they could have said that there was cost overruns in infrastructure spending and this was 'corruption'.

The RPPs positioned as profitable and 'only' needing a revolving funds for initial payments was a disaster. Even now we only seem to know that 500 billion Baht (i.e. 500,000,000,000) has been lost. Poor farmers still poor, some farmers only being paid after six or more months. No transparency neither responsibility by the Yingluck administration. Utterly criminally negligent.

The possible losses seem to approach the level which would have seen the deficit in the National Budget almost double for THREE years in a row. The wasted money, where is it? Till now no one knows. The only thing we know is that it is NOT with the poor farmers is was meant for.

The Abhisit government 'minimum price guarantee' payable directly to farmers let to complaints that it wasn't enough. Still it went directly to farmers.

The only campaign I see now it some people desperately trying to obfuscate, tell halftruths or even lies.

A Yingluck government which said mid-2013 to need only 270 billion Baht for 2013/2014 RPPS and to have the funding. Many months bills not paid till in December the caretaker government tried to borrow 'only' 130 billion Baht.

Now it seems to become clear why the suddenly 'blanket' amnesty bill covered not only Thaksin's last two years in/out of office, but even the first two years of Yingluck administration. They simply KNEW they would need it.

Lost to whom?

How much was pilfered and how much is simply the difference between the global and paid price?

That is the issue, not the subsidy loss.

So you say it's not clear whether Thaksin and his PT government are guilty of incompetence or corruption... or maybe both?

One thing does seem quite clear though, Thailand is better off without them.

edit typo

Its not illegal to be incompetent. I wish they could apply that to Gordon brown but alas.

Its not illegal to splurge public money.

[Trembly]

Lost to whom?

How much was pilfered and how much is simply the difference between the global and paid price?

That is the issue, not the subsidy loss.

So you say it's not clear whether Thaksin and his PT government are guilty of incompetence or corruption... or maybe both?

One thing does seem quite clear though, Thailand is better off without them.

edit typo

Its not illegal to be incompetent. I wish they could apply that to Gordon brown but alas.

Its not illegal to splurge public money.

It is illegal to embezzle public money though.

According to the scheme, the money should have either been sitting in government coffers / banks or it should have been in rice-depositors' bank accounts. One or the other.

It has been painfully apparent that neither was the case (bar a lucky portion of the latter) so . . . where's the money?

Edited May 31, 2014 by Trembly

[Thai at Heart]

Lost to whom?

How much was pilfered and how much is simply the difference between the global and paid price?

That is the issue, not the subsidy loss.

So you say it's not clear whether Thaksin and his PT government are guilty of incompetence or corruption... or maybe both?

One thing does seem quite clear though, Thailand is better off without them.

edit typo

Its not illegal to be incompetent. I wish they could apply that to Gordon brown but alas.

Its not illegal to splurge public money.

It is illegal to embezzle public money though.

According to the scheme, the money should have either been sitting in government coffers / banks or it should have been in rice-depositors' bank accounts. One or the other.

It has been painfully apparent that neither was the case (bar a lucky portion of the latter) so . . . where's the money?

The vast majority of it is sitting in a gigantic pile of unsold rice, slowly going mouldy.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Thai at Heart

[Crushdepth]

What is your source..you claim the PT, Yingluck said the rice pledging program would not cost anything and they guaranteed this, when and where did they say this.. i think it was more expensive then they thought- its called a cost overrun.. NONE of that is corruption anymore than Abhists aircraft carrier.. slopy policy is not 'corruption'

This is a matter of public record, so get on Google and look it up yourself if you want to claim that night is day. And it's called a 'loss' actually. This scheme - designed by economic retards - has lost huge amounts of taxpayers money. So much for making a profit! When the court cases are finished we will add the word 'corruption' to description of the scam as well. I think 'disaster' is probably also appropriate.

Someone's a little sore that their favourite government got the finger...

[Crushdepth]

In reality there was very little 'corruption' in the rice pledging farm subsidy.. the notion that 'it incurred billions in losses' is a joke, it's a subsidy, of course 'it incurs losses'.. but ultimately the entire program was maybe 5% of the national budget-with most of this 'wasted money' going to poor farmers- under the Abhisit regime the rice subsidy was the 'Farmers Insurance' program, and what , an 'insurance' subsidy is going to have 0 graft, not-liklyand it was just as expensive as the pledging program.. The entire case against Yingluck and her commerce minister is based on the notion that they 'knew corruption was happening but did nothing to stop it'.. EVERY entitlement program is going to have some 'corruption', this article is proof that the 'corruption' wasn't that bad, just a few forged documents.

the entire smear campaign was just a tool for the establishment to sabotage the democratically elected government, notice how as soon as the military took over the farmers were immediately paid because the 'caretaker' government for 6 months was not allowed to pay them, legal restrictions, Banks refusing to give the govt short term loads, and rich Thai's affiliated with the pdrc threatening to run on any bank that loaned money to the government. If it hadn't been the rice pledging 'scheme' then the establishment would have made something else an 'isssue of corruption' like they could have said that there was cost overruns in infrastructure spending and this was 'corruption'.

The RPPs positioned as profitable and 'only' needing a revolving funds for initial payments was a disaster. Even now we only seem to know that 500 billion Baht (i.e. 500,000,000,000) has been lost. Poor farmers still poor, some farmers only being paid after six or more months. No transparency neither responsibility by the Yingluck administration. Utterly criminally negligent.

The possible losses seem to approach the level which would have seen the deficit in the National Budget almost double for THREE years in a row. The wasted money, where is it? Till now no one knows. The only thing we know is that it is NOT with the poor farmers is was meant for.

The Abhisit government 'minimum price guarantee' payable directly to farmers let to complaints that it wasn't enough. Still it went directly to farmers.

The only campaign I see now it some people desperately trying to obfuscate, tell halftruths or even lies.

A Yingluck government which said mid-2013 to need only 270 billion Baht for 2013/2014 RPPS and to have the funding. Many months bills not paid till in December the caretaker government tried to borrow 'only' 130 billion Baht.

Now it seems to become clear why the suddenly 'blanket' amnesty bill covered not only Thaksin's last two years in/out of office, but even the first two years of Yingluck administration. They simply KNEW they would need it.

Lost to whom?

How much was pilfered and how much is simply the difference between the global and paid price?

That is the issue, not the subsidy loss.

So you say it's not clear whether Thaksin and his PT government are guilty of incompetence or corruption... or maybe both?

One thing does seem quite clear though, Thailand is better off without them.

edit typo

Its not illegal to be incompetent. I wish they could apply that to Gordon brown but alas.

Its not illegal to splurge public money.

It's illegal to steal it though, and to arrange things such that your cronies can siphon it off.

[Trembly]

Double post.

Edited June 1, 2014 by Trembly

[Trembly]

So you say it's not clear whether Thaksin and his PT government are guilty of incompetence or corruption... or maybe both?

One thing does seem quite clear though, Thailand is better off without them.

edit typo

Its not illegal to be incompetent. I wish they could apply that to Gordon brown but alas.

Its not illegal to splurge public money.

It is illegal to embezzle public money though.

According to the scheme, the money should have either been sitting in government coffers / banks or it should have been in rice-depositors' bank accounts. One or the other.

It has been painfully apparent that neither was the case (bar a lucky portion of the latter) so . . . where's the money?

The vast majority of it is sitting in a gigantic pile of unsold rice, slowly going mouldy.

No, that's rice. I'm talking about money that was meant to pay depositors for it.

1. Govt (to farmers) : you give me rice, I give you money

2. Farmers : here's the rice, money please . . .

3. Govt : sorry, please wait a moment

4. Govt (to state finances) : give us some more money please . . .

5. State finances : . . . but but . . but we just gave you an increase in the budget and the farmers haven't been paid yet

6. Govt : just give us the money . . .

It's not a 'pay-as-you-sell' scheme, it's a 'pay-as-you-stockpile' scheme, which means the money should already be there to pay for the stockpiling without any sale intended until the stockpiling is over.

Edited June 1, 2014 by Trembly

[Thai at Heart]

So you say it's not clear whether Thaksin and his PT government are guilty of incompetence or corruption... or maybe both?

One thing does seem quite clear though, Thailand is better off without them.

edit typo

Its not illegal to be incompetent. I wish they could apply that to Gordon brown but alas.

Its not illegal to splurge public money.

It is illegal to embezzle public money though.

According to the scheme, the money should have either been sitting in government coffers / banks or it should have been in rice-depositors' bank accounts. One or the other.

It has been painfully apparent that neither was the case (bar a lucky portion of the latter) so . . . where's the money?

The vast majority of it is sitting in a gigantic pile of unsold rice, slowly going mouldy.

No, that's rice. I'm talking about money that was meant to pay depositors for it.

1. Govt (to farmers) : you give me rice, I give you money

2. Farmers : here's the rice, money please . . .

3. Govt : sorry, please wait a moment

4. Govt (to state finances) : give us some more money please . . .

5. State finances : . . . but but . . but we just gave you an increase in the budget and the farmers haven't been paid yet

6. Govt : just give us the money . . .

It's not a 'pay-as-you-sell' scheme, it's a 'pay-as-you-stockpile' scheme, which means the money should already be there to pay for the stockpiling without any sale intended until the stockpiling is over.

They bought it for 1000, then they processed it which made it then cost 2000, but the world sale price is only 900.

This is using illustrative figures. As far as I have read the beat quality stuff has cost them about 27000 baht per tonne but the sale price fob bangkok is only 14000.

They have still millions of tonnes of rice unsold so the loss has yet to be realised.

Get me drift. This is before any corruption. That is where the vast majority of the so called loss has gone. At that level it was never going to be self funding.

So, is it illegal to have over paid the farmer? No. Is it illegal to have paid a processing and storage fee? No.

What is the product sitting in warehouse gojng to lose them? Probably between 700 and 1500 baht to be every tonne at FOB.

How may tonnes? 60,000,000 to 90,000,000 so far.

Edited June 1, 2014 by Thai at Heart

[Trembly]

So you say it's not clear whether Thaksin and his PT government are guilty of incompetence or corruption... or maybe both?

One thing does seem quite clear though, Thailand is better off without them.

edit typo

Its not illegal to be incompetent. I wish they could apply that to Gordon brown but alas.

Its not illegal to splurge public money.

It is illegal to embezzle public money though.

According to the scheme, the money should have either been sitting in government coffers / banks or it should have been in rice-depositors' bank accounts. One or the other.

It has been painfully apparent that neither was the case (bar a lucky portion of the latter) so . . . where's the money?

The vast majority of it is sitting in a gigantic pile of unsold rice, slowly going mouldy.

No, that's rice. I'm talking about money that was meant to pay depositors for it.

1. Govt (to farmers) : you give me rice, I give you money

2. Farmers : here's the rice, money please . . .

3. Govt : sorry, please wait a moment

4. Govt (to state finances) : give us some more money please . . .

5. State finances : . . . but but . . but we just gave you an increase in the budget and the farmers haven't been paid yet

6. Govt : just give us the money . . .

It's not a 'pay-as-you-sell' scheme, it's a 'pay-as-you-stockpile' scheme, which means the money should already be there to pay for the stockpiling without any sale intended until the stockpiling is over.

They bought it for 1000, then they processed it which made it then cost 2000, but the world sale price is only 900.

This is using illustrative figures. As far as I have read the beat quality stuff has cost them about 27000 baht per tonne but the sale price fob bangkok is only 14000.

They have still millions of tonnes of rice unsold so the loss has yet to be realised.

Get me drift. This is before any corruption. That is where the vast majority of the so called loss has gone. At that level it was never going to be self funding.

So, is it illegal to have over paid the farmer? No. Is it illegal to have paid a processing and storage fee? No.

What is the product sitting in warehouse gojng to lose them? Probably between 700 and 1500 baht to be every tonne at FOB.

How may tonnes? 60,000,000 to 90,000,000 so far.

Just focus on the emboldened.

It's not illegal to over pay the farmer, but it is illegal not to pay them at all.

Why were they not paid? "No money"

But you had a budget. You even got an increase over and above the original budget despite misgivings from the Bank of Thailand! "... can we have some more money please?"

Why is there no money? "Don't know"

[Thai at Heart]

So you say it's not clear whether Thaksin and his PT government are guilty of incompetence or corruption... or maybe both?

One thing does seem quite clear though, Thailand is better off without them.

edit typo

Its not illegal to be incompetent. I wish they could apply that to Gordon brown but alas.

Its not illegal to splurge public money.

It is illegal to embezzle public money though.

According to the scheme, the money should have either been sitting in government coffers / banks or it should have been in rice-depositors' bank accounts. One or the other.

It has been painfully apparent that neither was the case (bar a lucky portion of the latter) so . . . where's the money?

The vast majority of it is sitting in a gigantic pile of unsold rice, slowly going mouldy.

No, that's rice. I'm talking about money that was meant to pay depositors for it.

1. Govt (to farmers) : you give me rice, I give you money

2. Farmers : here's the rice, money please . . .

3. Govt : sorry, please wait a moment

4. Govt (to state finances) : give us some more money please . . .

5. State finances : . . . but but . . but we just gave you an increase in the budget and the farmers haven't been paid yet

6. Govt : just give us the money . . .

It's not a 'pay-as-you-sell' scheme, it's a 'pay-as-you-stockpile' scheme, which means the money should already be there to pay for the stockpiling without any sale intended until the stockpiling is over.

They bought it for 1000, then they processed it which made it then cost 2000, but the world sale price is only 900.

This is using illustrative figures. As far as I have read the beat quality stuff has cost them about 27000 baht per tonne but the sale price fob bangkok is only 14000.

They have still millions of tonnes of rice unsold so the loss has yet to be realised.

Get me drift. This is before any corruption. That is where the vast majority of the so called loss has gone. At that level it was never going to be self funding.

So, is it illegal to have over paid the farmer? No. Is it illegal to have paid a processing and storage fee? No.

What is the product sitting in warehouse gojng to lose them? Probably between 700 and 1500 baht to be every tonne at FOB.

How may tonnes? 60,000,000 to 90,000,000 so far.

Just focus on the emboldened.

It's not illegal to over pay the farmer, but it is illegal not to pay them at all.

Why were they not paid? "No money"

But you had a budget. You even got an increase over and above the original budget despite misgivings from the Bank of Thailand! "... can we have some more money please?"

Why is there no money? "Don't know"

If they hadn't called the election and got stymied as an interim govt, they would have got paid.

So, do you agree its possible there hasn't been billions missapropriated from this deal?

[marstons]

Not surprising as this investigation is more focusing on the "nuts and bolts" of the scam. The thing is not to prove that they were involved, but more that they were aware of it.

I wonder what Supa has to say about this though?

Oh that's right she won't dribble information out as the investigation by the NACC is progressing. The NACC will wait until it has fully completed its investigation and present its findings.

That is the one I am looking forward to.

He said afterwards that based on current information, there were 10 cases that were under investigation by officials, and that all of the cases involved counterfeiting of rice mortgage documents – primarily the warehouse receipts.

Actually say were involved in it not aware of it, involved in my book mean it says they were involved in doing the scamming. seems clear enough.

[marstons]

The Prime Minister is the de facto chair of the Cabinet of Thailand. The appointment and removal of Ministers can only be made with their advice. As the leader of the government the Prime Minister is therefore ultimately responsible for the failings and performance of their Ministers and the government as a whole. So they don't need to be high level. Khun Yingluck, the buck stops with you.

You suggest that Khun Yingluck was all powerful yet when she decided to move a senior official from his post, she was judged to have acted ultra vires and removed from her post. Are you sure the buck stops with Yingluck or are you just guilty of wishful thinking?

The buck should stop with Yingluck.. however she has a boss but he can't be held accountable as he is already on the run from the law.

who is he running from, Certainly no countries outside Thailand, he has more freedom than the leaders of the Coup who are already banned from entering Australia.

[Trembly]

So you say it's not clear whether Thaksin and his PT government are guilty of incompetence or corruption... or maybe both?

One thing does seem quite clear though, Thailand is better off without them.

edit typo

Its not illegal to be incompetent. I wish they could apply that to Gordon brown but alas.

Its not illegal to splurge public money.

It is illegal to embezzle public money though.

According to the scheme, the money should have either been sitting in government coffers / banks or it should have been in rice-depositors' bank accounts. One or the other.

It has been painfully apparent that neither was the case (bar a lucky portion of the latter) so . . . where's the money?

The vast majority of it is sitting in a gigantic pile of unsold rice, slowly going mouldy.

No, that's rice. I'm talking about money that was meant to pay depositors for it.

1. Govt (to farmers) : you give me rice, I give you money

2. Farmers : here's the rice, money please . . .

3. Govt : sorry, please wait a moment

4. Govt (to state finances) : give us some more money please . . .

5. State finances : . . . but but . . but we just gave you an increase in the budget and the farmers haven't been paid yet

6. Govt : just give us the money . . .

It's not a 'pay-as-you-sell' scheme, it's a 'pay-as-you-stockpile' scheme, which means the money should already be there to pay for the stockpiling without any sale intended until the stockpiling is over.

They bought it for 1000, then they processed it which made it then cost 2000, but the world sale price is only 900.

This is using illustrative figures. As far as I have read the beat quality stuff has cost them about 27000 baht per tonne but the sale price fob bangkok is only 14000.

They have still millions of tonnes of rice unsold so the loss has yet to be realised.

Get me drift. This is before any corruption. That is where the vast majority of the so called loss has gone. At that level it was never going to be self funding.

So, is it illegal to have over paid the farmer? No. Is it illegal to have paid a processing and storage fee? No.

What is the product sitting in warehouse gojng to lose them? Probably between 700 and 1500 baht to be every tonne at FOB.

How may tonnes? 60,000,000 to 90,000,000 so far.

Just focus on the emboldened.

It's not illegal to over pay the farmer, but it is illegal not to pay them at all.

Why were they not paid? "No money"

But you had a budget. You even got an increase over and above the original budget despite misgivings from the Bank of Thailand! "... can we have some more money please?"

Why is there no money? "Don't know"

If they hadn't called the election and got stymied as an interim govt, they would have got paid.

So, do you agree its possible there hasn't been billions missapropriated from this deal?

Then please explain why :

1. Payments to farmers stopped months before parliament was dissolved.

2. Extra budget was requested as input into the scheme months and months before any protests, despite the fact that there was no output in the form of payments to farmers.

Let me put it this way. If I give you some money to buy beer and you come back half an hour later without any beer, asking for for more money, what am I supposed to say or think?

Edited June 1, 2014 by Trembly

[Robby nz]

The theory.

There was at the start a fund of 500 billion put aside to pay for the scheme. This was supposed to be a revolving fund from which money was paid out to the farmers and all the other expenses like milling, storage, cartage ETC.

There would then be sales of rice out of the stocks bought to all the world who would be pleading with Thailand for rice as there would be a world shortage.

The high price obtained would then be fed back into the revolving fund to be paid out to the farmers for subsequent years crops forever and ever with huge profits.

The reality.

The 500 billion ran out very quickly as no or very little rice was sold, and with no real accounting as to where it went.

The Govt asked for and got another 270 billion to top up the fund to pay for the next seasons crop.

Then along came the protests over other indiscreet moves by the Govt and the house was dissolved.

At that point the 270 billion had disappeared into the 500 billion and many of the farmers had still not been paid.

This non payment was estimated at 130 billion, frantic attempts at raising this money mostly failed and we find ourselves in the present position of the Army ordering the finance ministry to find the money to pay the farmers.

So the cost.

The original 500 billion

The extra 270 billion

The estimated130 billion

Total 900 billion.

What now needs to be resolved.

How much rice is still in storage and realistic value

How much rice has been sold and for how much

How much has been paid to ; the farmers, the mills, the cartage contractors, the storage facilities and anything I haven't mentioned.

Who this has been paid to.

How much has been paid in commissions.(BAAC and others)

Who have they been paid to and why.

And anything else I haven't mentioned.

Once this has been determined and a total of pay-outs determined then there will remain the question :

Where did the rest go ?

The Audit office with the data they have has already said the loss to the country MAY be less than 500 billion.

[scorecard]

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Since high level politicians are not involved in any corruption, then how does all these billions of baht suddenly appear in their bank accounts.

You tell us. You obviously know, right? Please let us know what politicians have had "billions of baht suddenly appear in their bank accounts" alt=coffee1.gif width=32 height=24>

On the other hand fabie, you have access to every little detail of everything, so you come up with a detailed accounting of every baht and where every baht is right now and in full detail and with proof.

This is activity by the government, therefore all details should be readily available and with fully transparency, so not too difficult for you to find, especially with you access. 'State secrets' doesn't wash and never will and in any case goes against the high principles of strong democracy as espoused a million times by the pt and udd.

No doubt with your access you can find the details in a second and prove that nobody has benefitted other than the poor famers (many of whom waited 8 months to be paid) .

Waiting for your detailed report.

I'm not the one stating categorically that billions of baht has been allegedly stolen by politicians so the burden of proof is not on me. I asked a simple question. kurnell made the statement - if he doesn't provide proof I shall ignore his claim as most intelligent people on this forum would.

However, there are some that will take this claim as gospel - that has been demonstrated time after time on here.

So your saying that you have proof that the numbers all add up and there is no evidence of any corruption or collusion whatever in the rice scam scheme.

In that case, why not share the details?

Edited June 1, 2014 by scorecard