Bank account upon death

[NancyL]

An update on where I am in closing out the bank accounts for my deceased friend. There is a little hiccup because I was joint on a couple of her accounts (now frozen -- I can't withdraw from those accounts, but I could when she was ill) but she also had a direct deposit account for her U.S. Social Security benefit. (I never could draw on that account, of course)

The U.S. gov't can't get their act together and have now made two more monthly benefits payments into that account! Both the U.S. Consulate and the SS office in Manila claim they've done their jobs properly and have no idea why payments are continuing. Sometimes one happens & is soon reclaimed, but never two. Meanwhile, the account must remain open while they "investigate" and (of course) reclaim the money improperly paid.

So, the Will hasn't been "tested" yet because Bangkok Bank won't start the process to close ANY of my friends accounts until ALL of them are ready to close. Bummer. Stay tuned, more news to follow.

Running the Will thru probate wouldn't have speeded up this process any. The problem lies with U.S. social security and Bangkok Bank's rules about wanting to close down all the bank accounts for a deceased person at one time.

Bangkok Bank's rules seem onerous. What would happen if there are outstanding bills to be paid (especially after someone has had an extended illness (let alone just routine debts), or if there is someone dependent upon money from the deceased but who otherwise hasn't got a personal account with some cash stashed away and no other financial recourse? Could be a significant problem, for example, if the deceased was paying regular payments on a car loan or rent on a condo.

Oh, you're right, this is a problem. The hospital bills have been paid. Bangkok Bank will pay legitimate hospital bills for a deceased person out of their account. No problem with that. But the other bills -- like funeral expenses, condo rent, anyone dependent upon having access to the joint account -- well, they would have had a problem. This is a point I make in assisting couples where one is very ill -- don't be shy about moving money away from the joint account into a sole account. This is nothing unique to Bangkok Bank. This is a "Lesson Learned".

All the Tall Tales about "She'll Just Clean Out the Account with the ATM Card and the PIN Number when I Croak" don't always work. I know too many Thai widows who have been frozen out of joint accounts or, worse yet, accounts solely owned by their deceased partners, because the guys thought that was an easy form of estate planning.

Edited August 19, 2014 by NancyL

[JimGant]

It's bad enough that Thailand doesn't have proviso for a named beneficiary ("pay on death") so that bank accounts avoid probate. But the seeming confusion on joint accounts after the death of one owner is even more frustrating.

In the "ask the lawyer" subforum, the following dialogue took place:

Q: My Thai wife and I have a joint savings account with Bangkok Bank. Should one of us die, does the survivor, under Thai law, still have full access to that joint account? Or will it be sealed, pending probate of the estate?

A: The bank account will not close, but yo will still have to follow the rules put in place when it was open. For example if you both have to sign for release of funds then you will not be able to withdraw from that account. If this is the case then you will need to settle it along with the estate.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/716811-joint-bank-accounts-death-of-one-owner/

I doubt many joint accounts are opened that require both owners present to access funds. So, for "only one owner required" joint accounts, the above answer seems to say, 'yes, the surviving owner has full access to the account upon the death of the other joint owner.'

But, we see not all banks have been fully briefed -- or maybe legality of joint accounts hasn't been sufficiently codified? Sigh.

[chiang mai]

This thread and NancyL's comments have given me food for thought so thank you.

The period of time between death and funds being transferred via probate could be considerable and as has been pointed out, there are living expenses that must be paid in the meantime. The solution to this bridging problem that I'm considering is to put aside a sum of money in an account in my wife's name, say six months living expenses plus funeral costs, on the understanding that the funds are for a specific purpose.

[JimGant]

The solution to this bridging problem that I'm considering is to put aside a sum of money in an account in my wife's name, say six months living expenses plus funeral costs, on the understanding that the funds are for a specific purpose.

Good planning. Just too bad the situation here makes estate planning so untidy.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

All the Tall Tales about "She'll Just Clean Out the Account with the ATM Card and the PIN Number when I Croak" don't always work. I know too many Thai widows who have been frozen out of joint accounts or, worse yet, accounts solely owned by their deceased partners, because the guys thought that was an easy form of estate planning.

Nancy, you address here, the general issue behind the question I asked you above, but you didn't answer my question....

So I'll repeat it here: what caused BKK Bank to freeze the accounts of the deceased person on which you were the joint account holder???

People seem to think (perhaps wrongly) that the bank won't find out or know for some time that a person has died...

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

It's bad enough that Thailand doesn't have proviso for a named beneficiary ("pay on death") so that bank accounts avoid probate. But the seeming confusion on joint accounts after the death of one owner is even more frustrating.

Almost all of my U.S. accounts have a POD (payable on death) beneficiary designation. It usually can be done at account opening or after the account is open, either online sometimes or by filling out and submitting a beneficiary designation form.

The value of doing that is it takes those accounts entirely out of the probate process, which should speed and simplify the process for my named beneficiary to receive the funds in the wake of my death. The designations also can be changed at will without having to rewrite wills or even involve any attorneys.

Frankly, the lack of a POD system here, along with the terrible confusion and uncertainty over post-death financial issues here, is among the various reasons I don't and won't move more assets into Thailand -- at least as things stand now.

BTW, the only problem I've encountered with POD designations in the U.S. is some institutions want to require your named beneficiary to have a U.S. SSN or ITIN #, which Thai citizens may not have. But those institutions seem to be in the minority, so clearly that is not a legal requirement.

[Mapguy]

A couple of reasonable work arounds have been suggested above by TallGuy and Chiang Mai. Another is simply to keep emergency cash in the house (in a safe, course), but Chiang Mai would be appalled at the lost interest!

[JimGant]

Warning! Thread creep. Sorry.

A few years back, I found out I was underinsured with FDIC, as I had so many of my insurable accounts with USAA (including Dad's Family Trust, joint accts with Mom and wife, etc.). Solution: Add POD beneficiaries.

Informal revocable trusts — also known as payable on death (POD), in trust for (ITF), testamentary, or Totten Trust accounts — are the most common form of revocable trusts. These informal revocable trusts are created when the account owner signs an agreement — usually part of the bank's signature card — stating that the deposits will be payable to one or more beneficiaries upon the owner's death.

As a quick example, I you have a savings, checking, and CD account with a single bank, and the accounts are strictly in your name, your max insured amount with FDIC is $250,000. But, if you add two POD beneficiaries, you'll now be insured for $500,000 (I'll let you read the below reference FAQ section to figure out why you need two beneficiaries). Joint accounts, too, can have POD beneficiaries to increase FDIC insurance.

Anyway, if you think you might be skating FDIC limits, it's worth your while to do the calculation in the below reference, which for a Gov't pub, is well written and comprehensive.

https://www.fdic.gov/edie/calculator.html

Maybe Thailand doesn't have POD accounts because they function as trusts(?). And Thailand doesn't allow for trusts, at least as we know them......

[JimGant]

A couple of reasonable work arounds have been suggested above by TallGuy and Chiang Mai. Another is simply to keep emergency cash in the house (in a safe, course), but Chiang Mai would be appalled at the lost interest!

Unless you live in a one horse moo baan, where news of your death can travel fast, your wife should have many days to empty out the joint account. And, should the bank manager subsequently freeze the now empty account, what law will he waive in her face to claim violation? And, absent such a law, what could he possibly do? (That's why it's important she has at least a handwritten Will naming her as beneficiary of your account, including joint account (although that sounds over the top) -- so she can waive it in the manager's face.)

But, as that account should qualify as joint property, she can legally draw out at least half, I would think.....

If, indeed, the account is frozen, I would suppose this means the automatic monthly debits paying utilities would stop..... Need to anticipate this, before the meter is removed.

[NancyL]

All the Tall Tales about "She'll Just Clean Out the Account with the ATM Card and the PIN Number when I Croak" don't always work. I know too many Thai widows who have been frozen out of joint accounts or, worse yet, accounts solely owned by their deceased partners, because the guys thought that was an easy form of estate planning.

Nancy, you address here, the general issue behind the question I asked you above, but you didn't answer my question....

So I'll repeat it here: what caused BKK Bank to freeze the accounts of the deceased person on which you were the joint account holder???

People seem to think (perhaps wrongly) that the bank won't find out or know for some time that a person has died...

To answer the question of how BB "knew" my friend died -- well I don't exactly recall -- there were other things on my mind at the time. That's the point. No one thinks about things like that at that time. It wasn't until a few days later and I went to the bank to see if I could close the accounts that I learned they were well aware of the death. These accounts were higher interest earning accounts, not ATM accounts.

We can't hide here. Gossiping about foreigners is a favorite pastime. If anyone thinks they can "hide" in Thailand, at least with respect to banking and health matters, they are sadly mistaken.

Edited August 20, 2014 by NancyL

[chiang mai]

A couple of reasonable work arounds have been suggested above by TallGuy and Chiang Mai. Another is simply to keep emergency cash in the house (in a safe, course), but Chiang Mai would be appalled at the lost interest!

Oi, 50 baht is 50 baht!

[opalred]

boring you die gone and why worry about money if have concern put it all in casket and burn as if leave there will be fighting over it

if you put in ground with you someone will try to dig up spend it or if have to much give to poor

[BlackJack]

I closed 3 bank accounts . krungsri kasikorn bangkok bank all the same. My passport the deceased passport death certificate court order showing by name the deceased and the administrator. Several forms totally in thai needed to be signed and bank books punched with holes and stamped closed. Now the beneficiaries will be paid as per the will. That's all.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Blackjack, in the case you mention above, what exactly was the content of the court order?

Was it just a court order confirming or naming an executor? Or was it directing something else in terms of the will?

[opalred]

i have brother in law in sydney ahigh flying lawyer $15ml houise etc he told me why divorces the longer they fight the more he gets wills same sometimes he gets everything

[BlackJack]

The court order was based on identifying me as the person that applied and appeared in court as the nominated executor and the I would carry out the wills directions to the best of my abilities. It also confirmed the death certificate and other docs.

[Mekong Bob]

re: surviving spouse's access to joint savings account (only one "either/or" signature) at Bangkok Bank or Kasikorn Bank:

Step 1: do not notify bank. surviving spouse will continue to have access until such time as bank learns of death of deceased spouse;

Step 2: surviving spouse should drain joint account, but not attempt to close account. deposit monies in new account elsewhere;

Step 3: in the event that bank becomes aware of death of deceased spouse, provide bank with death certificate, withdraw full account balance

Upon learning of death of spouse (joint-holder of savings account), bank will confiscate, hold, seize, freeze (in Thai, อายัด "a-yat")

the joint account until a certified copy of the death certificate (in Thai, มรณบัตร "mo-ra-na-bat") is provided.

[Boyblue]

The Law states that you have to have a Will in any country you have an immoveable asset, such as a business or property.

As for bank accounts it will really depend on the bank manager at the branch. But if you have a will in Thailand your "Executor" can access any property or funds, I have a Thai Will, written in English and translated into Thai naming someone I trust as the Executor, witnessed by two people at the same time. a foreigner does not need it witnessing by the Amphur, this is for Thais.

I also have a Will in England where I still have assets. the only time you can use a UK will in another country is by using the "Apostile" system, which means you gain probate on your UK Will, then send the document to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) to have the Apostile stamp put on the Deed of Probate. this can then be used within any country that is a part of the "Apostile" system. the Apostile will cost your £30 per copy.

the simplest method, is to get a Will drawn up in Thailand. I used Expat Wills, a UK Will writer who also works here in Thailand, who then sent certificates to my next of kin and Executor telling them of the whereabouts of my Will and what to do when the time came....

why would anyone live in Thailand, have assets that they don't want to go totally to their wife, but not have a Will or Power of Attorney, this would cause untold problems for the family on death or if they lost mental capacity due to illness or accident.

Because I have nothing to have people fight over here. My TV my refrigerator and my computer's these are things that the wife's family will absorb when I leave. Also as I have said I do not have a private bank account. The wife is signed on to every one of them and I have left a list of my ATM and Visa cards along with the pin numbers to access them. There are many people living here in Thailand the same as me. They die the wife automatically takes the pot's and pan's along with the kitchen ware. None of it is registered in my name or her name it is common property.

I can understand the will if you have property of one kind or another in your name. Or a private bank account. Or other people in a position to contest for your possessions. But that is not the case with a lot of us.

I have money invested out side the country and my wife is named as the beneficiary. To facilitate it I have signed papers giving my son power of attorney in case of my passing. I trust him. He has visited often and knows my wife. When I moved to Thailand I made it a commitment. I got rid of all my possessions in Canada with the exception of a few valuable books that will go to the son holding them. I even went so far as to give my car to my ex. So as you can see there is no need for a will. The money I have invested I have been instructed by mmy three sons that not to worry about them take care of me and my wife.

just for your information, a Power of Attorney dies with the "donor" so when you die, your attorneys can no longer use it, they can only access your investments with a deed of probate, gained with your will in the country you have your investments.

[scorecard]

"Can I draw up a simple will leaving her EVERYTHING including bank accounts".

Yes, and lawyers will tell you this is the preferred way to write a will here, for one thing is saves you having to change your will every time you change banks.

Well, not all lawyers. From the ask the lawyer subforum: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/745273-wishing-clarification-on-your-answer-about-bank-passbook-details/

Q: In the post: Lawyer wants bank passbook details for will - is this usual?

Your answer was: "These details are required in the will"

Wishing clarification on your answer. If true, it means that I can not open a new account without rewriting the will every time?

I tend to open new accounts and finish others due to changes in interest rate conditions, etc.

A: Technically you can state that "all of my monetary assets in all of my bank accounts will be passed onto X person", though we recommend that you state specifically all the details of all accounts. Account owner, account number, branch that it was opened etc. All of which is listed in the passbook which is an official document from the bank. This ensures that your wishes will be carried out in exacting order and that the will executioner will know exactly where to look and which asset is to be distributed to whom, this also makes it easier for the banks to release the funds on your passing. Though it is not a 100% requirement, this is the reason why your lawyer has requested a copy of the document from you.

So, sounds like a good compromise is, "I leave everything, including accounts x,y,z...." Will does not become invalid if such accounts are closed, or new ones are subsequently opened. And, in fact, as Chiangmai's lawyer has said, just saying "everything" should be good enough. But why not cover some additional bases, even if time sensitive, if no harm done -- and if it just might expedite matters when you croak?

I already have a will and my Thai adult son is the only beneficiary and all of my assets are basically in his name already. So in my case it's probable that the will will never be 'processed' by a Thai court'.

I recently heard some expat guys arguing about the following point:

- One said that he has a similar situation to mine but he added some words in his will, stating that his son is not responsible for any debts which he leaves behind (in his case specifically meaning credit card debt).

- The other guy said that's not possible / not legal, if there is only one beneficiary then automatically, by Thai law, the beneficiary becomes responsible to clear any outstanding debts / credit card debts of the deceased, regardless of whether the will goes through probate or not.

Any members have any specific clear knowledge about this subject? Thanks.

Looking for facts, not opinions of what 'should be', etc., please no comments about trusting Thais etc.

Edited December 16, 2015 by scorecard

[scorecard]

re: surviving spouse's access to joint savings account (only one "either/or" signature) at Bangkok Bank or Kasikorn Bank:

Step 1: do not notify bank. surviving spouse will continue to have access until such time as bank learns of death of deceased spouse;

Step 2: surviving spouse should drain joint account, but not attempt to close account. deposit monies in new account elsewhere;

Step 3: in the event that bank becomes aware of death of deceased spouse, provide bank with death certificate, withdraw full account balance

Upon learning of death of spouse (joint-holder of savings account), bank will confiscate, hold, seize, freeze (in Thai, อายัด "a-yat")

the joint account until a certified copy of the death certificate (in Thai, มรณบัตร "mo-ra-na-bat") is provided.

Is this your comment just your personal 'advice' or does it have some basis in fact?

Is there some possibility that the bank or gov't agency could request that any money removed after the death of the 'partner'?

There seems to be many different answers to this item and different answers from different banks.

Example: Some years back my local UOB manager indicated the following: Joint savings accounts where only one signature is needed can continue if one party dies, one party is still alive so just continue to use the account using the signature of the party still surviving, which in reality is following the way the account was established - only one signature needed, and there is no official requirement to notify the bank that one of the parties is deceased.

Edited December 16, 2015 by scorecard

[NancyL]

"Can I draw up a simple will leaving her EVERYTHING including bank accounts".

Yes, and lawyers will tell you this is the preferred way to write a will here, for one thing is saves you having to change your will every time you change banks.

Well, not all lawyers. From the ask the lawyer subforum: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/745273-wishing-clarification-on-your-answer-about-bank-passbook-details/

Q: In the post: Lawyer wants bank passbook details for will - is this usual?

Your answer was: "These details are required in the will"

Wishing clarification on your answer. If true, it means that I can not open a new account without rewriting the will every time?

I tend to open new accounts and finish others due to changes in interest rate conditions, etc.

A: Technically you can state that "all of my monetary assets in all of my bank accounts will be passed onto X person", though we recommend that you state specifically all the details of all accounts. Account owner, account number, branch that it was opened etc. All of which is listed in the passbook which is an official document from the bank. This ensures that your wishes will be carried out in exacting order and that the will executioner will know exactly where to look and which asset is to be distributed to whom, this also makes it easier for the banks to release the funds on your passing. Though it is not a 100% requirement, this is the reason why your lawyer has requested a copy of the document from you.

So, sounds like a good compromise is, "I leave everything, including accounts x,y,z...." Will does not become invalid if such accounts are closed, or new ones are subsequently opened. And, in fact, as Chiangmai's lawyer has said, just saying "everything" should be good enough. But why not cover some additional bases, even if time sensitive, if no harm done -- and if it just might expedite matters when you croak?

I already have a will and my Thai adult son is the only beneficiary and all of my assets are basically in his name already. So in my case it's probable that the will will never be 'processed' by a Thai court'.

I recently heard some expat guys arguing about the following point:

- One said that he has a similar situation to mine but he added some words in his will, stating that his son is not responsible for any debts which he leaves behind (in his case specifically meaning credit card debt).

- The other guy said that's not possible / not legal, if there is only one beneficiary then automatically, by Thai law, the beneficiary becomes responsible to clear any outstanding debts / credit card debts of the deceased, regardless of whether the will goes through probate or not.

Any members have any specific clear knowledge about this subject? Thanks.

Looking for facts, not opinions of what 'should be', etc., please no comments about trusting Thais etc.

I can't speak to credit card debt in Thailand, but final hospital bills have to be settled or else the body won't be released.

[uptheos]

I can't speak to credit card debt in Thailand, but final hospital bills have to be settled or else the body won't be released.

Just out of curiosity, what do they do with the body if the bill is never paid and how long do they keep it?

[NancyL]

The policy at Suan Dok is at bodies are kept for months and months while the Embassies work very hard (some harder than others) to find next of kin or someone willing to step forward to assume responsibility. If after a period of time, longer than you'd expect, no one is to be found, a Buddhist charity provides a modest, but dignified final service.

[chiang mai]

The policy at Suan Dok is at bodies are kept for months and months while the Embassies work very hard (some harder than others) to find next of kin or someone willing to step forward to assume responsibility. If after a period of time, longer than you'd expect, no one is to be found, a Buddhist charity provides a modest, but dignified final service.

So presumably charges are racked up on a daily basis for Suan Doc holding the body, whilst the Embassies do their thing?

[NancyL]

The policy at Suan Dok is at bodies are kept for months and months while the Embassies work very hard (some harder than others) to find next of kin or someone willing to step forward to assume responsibility. If after a period of time, longer than you'd expect, no one is to be found, a Buddhist charity provides a modest, but dignified final service.

So presumably charges are racked up on a daily basis for Suan Doc holding the body, whilst the Embassies do their thing?

It's really a rather modest charge. I don't know the specifics. My interest is in helping the living. Once someone dies, it's the responsibility of the Embassy/Consulate to handle the the interface with the family and the hospital.

[uptheos]

The policy at Suan Dok is at bodies are kept for months and months while the Embassies work very hard (some harder than others) to find next of kin or someone willing to step forward to assume responsibility. If after a period of time, longer than you'd expect, no one is to be found, a Buddhist charity provides a modest, but dignified final service.

That's rather nice of them

[scorecard]

I can't speak to credit card debt in Thailand, but final hospital bills have to be settled or else the body won't be released.

Thank you Nancy re the hos[ital bills. These pieces of information all help when the time comes. I'll mention this to my son.

I recall an older American passing away in his rented home in Pattaya three years ago, he had been estranged from his family in the USA for decades and had recorded somewhere (I guess with the US embassy) that he did not want his family contacted when he passed. He had no close friends (his own making, he was an unpleasant guy). The neighbors disliked him but after his dogs had been unattended for days they contacted one of his western acquaintances who didn't really want to get involved.

After running around in circles with no idea what to do the western friend eventually called the police who called the US embassy, they came quickly and worked together with a unit from the Thai police.

Maybe six months later (as explained by Nancy) the body was released to a Thai charity and was immediately cremated.