Camerata's Guide To The Permanent Residence Process

[jombangkok]

I am considering applying for a PR at the end of this year, the only issue is my thai is pretty bad. I’m looking at schools and some asked what level of thai will be required to pass the interview. Anyone know what level might be required? And wether it can be achieved in 5 months or so? 
 

My level now is low, although I do have some base as I can read and sometimes understand what’s being said (sometimes). Still beginner though.

 

thank you

[anthonyT]

Had to go yesterday to Cheang Wattana to extent for the first time my "under consideration" stamp of my application (applied December 2021). For who has to go also, they asked for a TM25 to be brought. I attached it here or one can download it after googling "TM 25 Thailand immigration".

 

I did not bring my mine, so they gave me 3 copies, one for yesterday and or the next visits. So looks like they expect it to take at least 1 more year before receiving the final verdict. I did ask how about the interviews, as i said i was excited to know if ok or not, but she said not to worry. so at least some relief ;o)

 

Nice thing about it, i arrived at 11:00, was number 2 of the day and could processed immediately. In and out in 20 minutes, instead of the long queues at the other desks.

 

Ant.

 

 

 

 

2078638482_26.-.25.doc

Edited June 16, 2022 by anthonyT
Thought attachment was wrong, but it seems to be called 26-25 doc, so it was correct the 1st time

[Dogmatix]

On 6/14/2022 at 7:00 PM, jombangkok said:

I am considering applying for a PR at the end of this year, the only issue is my thai is pretty bad. I’m looking at schools and some asked what level of thai will be required to pass the interview. Anyone know what level might be required? And wether it can be achieved in 5 months or so? 
 

My level now is low, although I do have some base as I can read and sometimes understand what’s being said (sometimes). Still beginner though.

 

thank you

They certainly don't expect fluency or a perfect accent but I would say an intermediate level of spoken Thai and oral comprehension is required for the interview.  Apart from being asked to introduce yourselve and explain your situation in Thailand they will ask questions on anything that strikes their fancy. One friend was asked to explain what contribution he thought he made to Thai society. Another friend was asked if he had any close Thai friends.  When he said yes he was asked for full names of four of them.  I would guess that is about as difficult as it gets and it could be easier. 

 

Can you acquire an intermediate level knowledge of Thai within 5 months from a low base.  Definitely you can, if you are prepared to make a big effort and put in the hours.  In fact, if you apply at the end of this year, you will likely have at least a year before you would be asked to come for the formal interview. 

[kiwiaussie]

On 6/16/2022 at 10:18 AM, anthonyT said:

Had to go yesterday to Cheang Wattana to extent for the first time my "under consideration" stamp of my application (applied December 2021). For who has to go also, they asked for a TM25 to be brought. I attached it here or one can download it after googling "TM 25 Thailand immigration".

 

I did not bring my mine, so they gave me 3 copies, one for yesterday and or the next visits. So looks like they expect it to take at least 1 more year before receiving the final verdict. I did ask how about the interviews, as i said i was excited to know if ok or not, but she said not to worry. so at least some relief ;o)

 

Nice thing about it, i arrived at 11:00, was number 2 of the day and could processed immediately. In and out in 20 minutes, instead of the long queues at the other desks.

 

Ant.

 

 

 

 

2078638482_26.-.25.doc 44 kB · 8 downloads

Is this the 6 month extension visa for those under PR consideration? If so, that is interesting. I read that they were discontinuing it.

 

May I also ask - I hope I'm not prying- why you are applying for this one instead of just continuing with your original extension of stay reason? Sorry if I'm being too personal. 

[anthonyT]

20 hours ago, kiwiaussie said:

Is this the 6 month extension visa for those under PR consideration? If so, that is interesting. I read that they were discontinuing it.

 

May I also ask - I hope I'm not prying- why you are applying for this one instead of just continuing with your original extension of stay reason? Sorry if I'm being too personal. 

Yes, my application is currently under review and i opted to get the "Under review stamp visa" in my passport over the yearly working permit visa i had. Main reason that at the time of applying in my sector of work there was still quite some job uncertainty or potential to be made redundant. Then with this stamp there would not be the requirement to scramble around urgently if being made redundant. Now luckily that likelihood has reduced now with the borders opening. 

 

Anyway getting this "extension visa" is painless and free of cost, other then the travel and it means i just have to go one more time to immigration, opposed to the yearly visit for the work permit one.

 

Ant.

[Bangel72]

7 hours ago, anthonyT said:

Yes, my application is currently under review and i opted to get the "Under review stamp visa" in my passport over the yearly working permit visa i had. Main reason that at the time of applying in my sector of work there was still quite some job uncertainty or potential to be made redundant. Then with this stamp there would not be the requirement to scramble around urgently if being made redundant. Now luckily that likelihood has reduced now with the borders opening. 

 

Anyway getting this "extension visa" is painless and free of cost, other then the travel and it means i just have to go one more time to immigration, opposed to the yearly visit for the work permit one.

 

Ant.

I long time I had the Under review stamp visa, I started a new job and they added the work visa with the work permit.  When I left that job they cancelled that visa at BOI and was told I had to leave thailand that day as it was 5 days after my offical termination date. I had to make a mad dash to Chaeng wattana to bring back my under review visa back to life. It turned out in effect I had two visa's running at the same time. 

[jombangkok]

On 6/16/2022 at 1:57 PM, Dogmatix said:

They certainly don't expect fluency or a perfect accent but I would say an intermediate level of spoken Thai and oral comprehension is required for the interview.  Apart from being asked to introduce yourselve and explain your situation in Thailand they will ask questions on anything that strikes their fancy. One friend was asked to explain what contribution he thought he made to Thai society. Another friend was asked if he had any close Thai friends.  When he said yes he was asked for full names of four of them.  I would guess that is about as difficult as it gets and it could be easier. 

 

Can you acquire an intermediate level knowledge of Thai within 5 months from a low base.  Definitely you can, if you are prepared to make a big effort and put in the hours.  In fact, if you apply at the end of this year, you will likely have at least a year before you would be asked to come for the formal interview. 

So the interview is not part of the application? That eases my pressure substantially.

[Dogmatix]

11 hours ago, jombangkok said:

So the interview is not part of the application? That eases my pressure substantially.

Exactly.  The interview takes after your application has been accepted by CW.

[Misty]

12 hours ago, jombangkok said:

So the interview is not part of the application? That eases my pressure substantially.

From several people's experience within the past two years, if you use an agent and pay "VIP service fees" you won't be interviewed until later.  But for those applying directly themselves, a several hour informal interview in Thai about the application, at the time of application, is likely.

 

Would be happy to hear that this has changed this past year, if someone has very recent experience of applying without paying "VIP service fees." 

[anthonyT]

5 hours ago, Misty said:

From several people's experience within the past two years, if you use an agent and pay "VIP service fees" you won't be interviewed until later.  But for those applying directly themselves, a several hour informal interview in Thai about the application, at the time of application, is likely.

 

Would be happy to hear that this has changed this past year, if someone has very recent experience of applying without paying "VIP service fees." 

Hi Misty,

 

As per my experience, having done the application in December 2022 and not having paid any VIP service fee to any agent, it was as follows.

 

Been to Chaeng Wattana about 3 times in November and December, before having my application accepted (mostly the concerns were on the tax payments by the company i am working for and having to request a new criminal record check from my country, as the one i used to apply for the previous year was no longer valid). To have my application accepted i was required to bring by wife and son. We were brought to one of the seperate offices where the senior officer would go again one time thru all documents and were deemed in order. During that time the officer prepared a document i had to sign and my finger prints were taken and had to pay 7600 TBH.

 

 About 2 months later, the senior officer asked, by contacting my wife, to come again to Chaeng Wattana were we went over my file and she asked for some background information on where i met with my wife etc and she was taking notes. I got the impression this was done as much to cross check i had a real family history as it was for the officer to familiarize with the candidate for when the file would be discussed with other departments and she would have to give some more background. This all took about 30 minutes in a very laid back atmosphere, where my wife spoke as much if not more then me with the officer.  At the end the officer explained that i would get a call to come for the interview for the interdepartmental board. This interview i had on the 26th of April.

 

This interview, went exactly as I read from earlier references on this thread. This will be the most challenging part if you are not confident on your Thai language skills, as it will be various questions asked by various officers regarding your application and about you personally. I found some questions difficult to hear and understand due to the social distancing, mouth masks and acrylic screens between myself and the board. I think it helps, by what i did, that is preparing a short story about myself which i learned by heart. This did fill up some of the time of the interview and maybe gave an better impression of my Thai fluency then it really is. Most questions i understood, however one took a few times rephrasing. The whole thing took probably around 15 minutes.

 

After that i am now excitedly waiting to hear if I passed the interview and what would be the next step. When i went for my 6 months stamp for my visa i did ask about the interview and got the impression that, you should not worry as nobody fails, but not sure if i interpreted that correctly. When getting the stamp it did sound like it would take at least another 6 - 12 months, before hearing if the application is approved.

 

Hope that helps.

Ant.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2022 by anthonyT

[Misty]

3 hours ago, anthonyT said:

Hi Misty,

 

As per my experience, having done the application in December 2022 and not having paid any VIP service fee to any agent, it was as follows.

 

Been to Chaeng Wattana about 3 times in November and December, before having my application accepted (mostly the concerns were on the tax payments by the company i am working for and having to request a new criminal record check from my country, as the one i used to apply for the previous year was no longer valid). To have my application accepted i was required to bring by wife and son. We were brought to one of the seperate offices where the senior officer would go again one time thru all documents and were deemed in order. During that time the officer prepared a document i had to sign and my finger prints were taken and had to pay 7600 TBH.

 

 About 2 months later, the senior officer asked, by contacting my wife, to come again to Chaeng Wattana were we went over my file and she asked for some background information on where i met with my wife etc and she was taking notes. I got the impression this was done as much to cross check i had a real family history as it was for the officer to familiarize with the candidate for when the file would be discussed with other departments and she would have to give some more background. This all took about 30 minutes in a very laid back atmosphere, where my wife spoke as much if not more then me with the officer.  At the end the officer explained that i would get a call to come for the interview for the interdepartmental board. This interview i had on the 26th of April.

 

This interview, went exactly as I read from earlier references on this thread. This will be the most challenging part if you are not confident on your Thai language skills, as it will be various questions asked by various officers regarding your application and about you personally. I found some questions difficult to hear and understand due to the social distancing, mouth masks and acrylic screens between myself and the board. I think it helps, by what i did, that is preparing a short story about myself which i learned by heart. This did fill up some of the time of the interview and maybe gave an better impression of my Thai fluency then it really is. Most questions i understood, however one took a few times rephrasing. The whole thing took probably around 15 minutes.

 

After that i am now excitedly waiting to hear if I passed the interview and what would be the next step. When i went for my 6 months stamp for my visa i did ask about the interview and got the impression that, you should not worry as nobody fails, but not sure if i interpreted that correctly. When getting the stamp it did sound like it would take at least another 6 - 12 months, before hearing if the application is approved.

 

Hope that helps.

Ant.

 

 

 

 

Thanks so much for your recent insight, and for the detailed post of your experience.  There's a lot of very useful posts in this thread, but many applied years ago and times have changed.  It sounds like maybe things have even improved since just 1-3 years ago.

[Dogmatix]

To clarify I think what people meant by saying the interview takes place after the application is accepted was that the formal interdepartmental panel interview takes place after the acceptance.  Of course you have informal or semi-formal discussion with the officers at CW about your application while you are applying but that is not strictly an assessment of your Thai and as Anthony said, you may have a Thai spouse or other helper with you at CW.

 

Re Misty’s comments I recall applying at the same as a friend back in the Soi Suan Plu days and he was very proud of his wife’s police general friends. He got one of them to put in a good word for him which was not free of charge. The result was that he got only one brief discussion about his application compared with the two in depth discussions I got, one of which was quite hostile and unpleasant.  For second “interview” he just waltzed in and showed the police general’s name card and was told all was in order and he could go, while I got the second degree. But we both got our PR about the same time, although he got his a couple of months before me. Of course things were very different then and there was no Thai language requirement or interpartnental panel meeting. But my impression is that, like then, there will always be applicants who want to pay and find a way to do it, particularly Asian business people who are used to having to pay bribes to get things done in Thailand. They may be treated a bit better like my friend was but it is unlikely to speed up the process much or get someone through is not fully qualified because there are too many people from different departments looking at the applications. My friend had a direct connection to a police general but most of those who pay only deal with their lawyers or agents and It’s a fair guess that a good percentage of these crooks don’t hand over the whole bribe to officials or maybe keep all of it for themselves. A few years ago there was a scam for PR awhere the MOI delayed the public announcements of new PRs which allowed police to tip off lawyers and agents in advance so they get in the phone to clients to claim there was special quota for those willing to pay 200k at a time when PR was taking 5-7 years (for good reasons). Those who paid got no benefits as they were already on the announcement list. They were just ripped off by their lawyers and agents who probably kept most of the bribes for themselves. The current minister made clear he was eliminating this disgusting practice by eliminating the long lead time between internal and public announcements of new PRs and citizens.

[scorecard]

3 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

To clarify I think what people meant by saying the interview takes place after the application is accepted was that the formal interdepartmental panel interview takes place after the acceptance.  Of course you have informal or semi-formal discussion with the officers at CW about your application while you are applying but that is not strictly an assessment of your Thai and as Anthony said, you may have a Thai spouse or other helper with you at CW.

 

Re Misty’s comments I recall applying at the same as a friend back in the Soi Suan Plu days and he was very proud of his wife’s police general friends. He got one of them to put in a good word for him which was not free of charge. The result was that he got only one brief discussion about his application compared with the two in depth discussions I got, one of which was quite hostile and unpleasant.  For second “interview” he just waltzed in and showed the police general’s name card and was told all was in order and he could go, while I got the second degree. But we both got our PR about the same time, although he got his a couple of months before me. Of course things were very different then and there was no Thai language requirement or interpartnental panel meeting. But my impression is that, like then, there will always be applicants who want to pay and find a way to do it, particularly Asian business people who are used to having to pay bribes to get things done in Thailand. They may be treated a bit better like my friend was but it is unlikely to speed up the process much or get someone through is not fully qualified because there are too many people from different departments looking at the applications. My friend had a direct connection to a police general but most of those who pay only deal with their lawyers or agents and It’s a fair guess that a good percentage of these crooks don’t hand over the whole bribe to officials or maybe keep all of it for themselves. A few years ago there was a scam for PR awhere the MOI delayed the public announcements of new PRs which allowed police to tip off lawyers and agents in advance so they get in the phone to clients to claim there was special quota for those willing to pay 200k at a time when PR was taking 5-7 years (for good reasons). Those who paid got no benefits as they were already on the announcement list. They were just ripped off by their lawyers and agents who probably kept most of the bribes for themselves. The current minister made clear he was eliminating this disgusting practice by eliminating the long lead time between internal and public announcements of new PRs and citizens.

I got approved 25 years ago and yes things were a bit different. There was no Thai langage test and taking a Thai wife with you was discouraged. I used an agent who helped me get all the submission attachments etc., ready. We went to Soi Suan Plu, no appointment and submitted all the documents to a clerk on the second floor. A minute later a snr. officer appeared and politely asked if I had time for a discussion on the spot. I said yes and we went to another room with my agent. The officer was very pleasant, a good listener and spoke perfect English, the discussion lasted about one hour and not one word of Thai was spoken. The officer read/scanned every document and asked several questions, mostly about my work and how it was contributing to Thailand. He mentioned pleasantly "I hope you're ensuring the young Thai staff around you are gaining strong knowledge and worthwhile work experiences." He also asked about my academic qualifications and shared that he was hoping his eldest son would be able to study in Australia and he asked for a lot of detail about one uni in Australia. He also said 'when the time comes can my son visit you to get some further advice how to register and how to get accepted. I agreed but nobody ever contacted me. After about 1 hr he said "I need just a few minutes to finish making all my notes then I'll talk to you again". We waited outside the room. About 10 minutes later he called us back and said "There will be no more interviews and on the documents I have strongly recommended your approval to receive a Certificate of Residence." He continued "The full committee will probably meet in November this year for the annual meeting, I am on that committee and I can pretty much guarantee you will get instant positive sign off by all the committee." From memory late November (same year) I got the approval letter. 

[jayboy]

7 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

For second “interview” he just waltzed in and showed the police general’s name card and was told all was in order

Although your friend was successful, there is I suspect a definite danger in invoking high level bureaucratic/police/armed forces support for PR applications unless you know exactly what your sponsor's reputation is in the Thai pecking order (and you never will).I agree that, as regards immigration matters, a police general's support is safer than most but, given the maelstrom of internal politics, one can never be quite sure.Given that the police general's intervention was not "free of charge", it would present an opportunity for a hypothetical rival to make mischief or worse.Why exactly are you doing this for this unimportant farang etc etc? I wonder how much the "consideration " actually was.If I was a Thai police general it would have to be very large indeed to make it worth the slight risk.

 

I have never heard of a PR application being rejected where the applicant fulfilled all the criteria.I suppose in a border line case - say a salary on the low side - it might be a sensible option to invoke support from outside.Otherwise my inclination would be to put in the application and wait.There doesn't seem to be a downside to a longish wait.

[Misty]

32 minutes ago, jayboy said:

Although your friend was successful, there is I suspect a definite danger in invoking high level bureaucratic/police/armed forces support for PR applications unless you know exactly what your sponsor's reputation is in the Thai pecking order (and you never will).I agree that, as regards immigration matters, a police general's support is safer than most but, given the maelstrom of internal politics, one can never be quite sure.Given that the police general's intervention was not "free of charge", it would present an opportunity for a hypothetical rival to make mischief or worse.Why exactly are you doing this for this unimportant farang etc etc? I wonder how much the "consideration " actually was.If I was a Thai police general it would have to be very large indeed to make it worth the slight risk.

 

I have never heard of a PR application being rejected where the applicant fulfilled all the criteria.I suppose in a border line case - say a salary on the low side - it might be a sensible option to invoke support from outside.Otherwise my inclination would be to put in the application and wait.There doesn't seem to be a downside to a longish wait.

Unfortunately valid, qualified PR applications were simply not being accepted during very recent years unless an agent was used.  This was an open topic among law firms helping applicants, and was confirmed via direct experience as well as in discussion with others at foreign chambers of commerce.  That's why it's heartening to hear Anthony's experience from Dec 2021 that perhaps that trend has been rolled back.

 

Editing for clarity:  The applications that I know of personally were definitely not border line cases. 

[jayboy]

25 minutes ago, Misty said:

Unfortunately valid, qualified PR applications were simply not being accepted during very recent years unless an agent was used.  This was an open topic among law firms helping applicants, and was confirmed via direct experience as well as in discussion with others at foreign chambers of commerce.  That's why it's heartening to hear Anthony's experience from Dec 2021 that perhaps that trend has been rolled back.

 

Editing for clarity:  The applications that I know of personally were definitely not border line cases. 

Point taken.I recall hearing recent developments on the lines you set out - there were certainly no issues of this sort when I applied.

 

Interesting that we were being told on this forum that after the military coup the logjam of PR applications was loosened up by the Ministry of the Interior.Now we hear that corruption at Immigration on PR applications - never a concern before - was ramped up.Perhaps it's like getting a Covid jab - favourable developments for a bit before the pesky virus re-asserts itself.

[scorecard]

Just now, jayboy said:

Point taken.I recall hearing recent developments on the lines you set out - there were certainly no issues of this sort when I applied.

 

Interesting that we were being told on this forum that after the military coup the logjam of PR applications was loosened up by the Ministry of the Interior.Now we hear that corruption at Immigration on PR applications - never a concern before - was ramped up.Perhaps it's like getting a Covid jab - favourable developments for a bit before the pesky virus re-asserts itself.

I heard 'third hand' that the log jam was removed by an order from the Interior Minister gen Anupong. A very powerful ex military general well respected as a very fair/very balanced man. 

[Dogmatix]

1 hour ago, jayboy said:

Although your friend was successful, there is I suspect a definite danger in invoking high level bureaucratic/police/armed forces support for PR applications unless you know exactly what your sponsor's reputation is in the Thai pecking order (and you never will).I agree that, as regards immigration matters, a police general's support is safer than most but, given the maelstrom of internal politics, one can never be quite sure.Given that the police general's intervention was not "free of charge", it would present an opportunity for a hypothetical rival to make mischief or worse.Why exactly are you doing this for this unimportant farang etc etc? I wonder how much the "consideration " actually was.If I was a Thai police general it would have to be very large indeed to make it worth the slight risk.

 

I have never heard of a PR application being rejected where the applicant fulfilled all the criteria.I suppose in a border line case - say a salary on the low side - it might be a sensible option to invoke support from outside.Otherwise my inclination would be to put in the application and wait.There doesn't seem to be a downside to a longish wait.

This guy did his research and got help from a police general from another department with connections to the top cops at Immigration or their bosses. He said he saw his file with the name card of the police general pinned to the front page with a handwritten note on it. But this was back in the Soi Suan Plu days and I am not suggesting things are the same or recommending people to try this themselves.  Also, as I said, this was a guy who loved showing off his bureaucratic connections and really wanted to pay, even though he was well qualified for PR. In the event he got some small convenience for his money but not real advantage. If you want to pay, there is always someone wiling to take your money.  For PR and citizenship it is often just your lawyer or agent who pockets all or most of the money.  

Edited June 21, 2022 by Dogmatix

[Dogmatix]

49 minutes ago, jayboy said:

Point taken.I recall hearing recent developments on the lines you set out - there were certainly no issues of this sort when I applied.

 

Interesting that we were being told on this forum that after the military coup the logjam of PR applications was loosened up by the Ministry of the Interior.Now we hear that corruption at Immigration on PR applications - never a concern before - was ramped up.Perhaps it's like getting a Covid jab - favourable developments for a bit before the pesky virus re-asserts itself.

Without doubt the logjams in the PR and citizenship queues was loosened up by Anuphong soon after the coup.  There is documentarty evidence of this regarding citizenship in the form of a announcement made by Anuphong with the first batch of new citizens gazetted under his watch. These were women married to Thais, who don't need to make the oath or have HMK's countersignature.  So Anuphong was able to proceed directly from his own signature to the Royal Gazette announcement. He referred to the fact that many had been waiting for an excessively long time and also obliquely referred to the scam I mentioned above, saying he was announcing the names of new citizens publicly immediately to prevent them from being taken advantage of by people saying they could get them on the list they were already on.  About the same time Anuphong started approving the backlog of PR applications. 

 

We all know anecdotally that corruption was not eliminated by the coup government and many claim it actually got worse.  So it would not be surprising if demands for cash appeared in the PR or citizenship processes, even though both were certainly streamlined and made more tansparent by the coup government. However, it still seems that the average applicant for PR or citizenship has been able to get through the entire process without using a lawyer or agent or being subjected to demands for cash.  Since the coup government reduced waiting times which is still the case, the temptation to offer bribes to cut the lengthy waiting times that used to prevail is no longer there.   However, there will always be exceptions to any rule. 

[jayboy]

20 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

For PR and citizenship it is often just your lawyer or agent who pockets all or most of the money.  

That's the usual response on this forum, but for me using a lawyer worked well.He had been our company employed lawyer dealing with immigration for many years.There was no overcharging or pocketing of funds.

 

As a matter of interest do you have any idea of how much very roughly the police general was paid?

11 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

However, it still seems that the average applicant for PR or citizenship has been able to get through the entire process without using a lawyer or agent or being subjected to demands for cash.

I hope so.But the evidence seems mixed.

[scorecard]

10 hours ago, scorecard said:

I got approved 25 years ago and yes things were a bit different. There was no Thai langage test and taking a Thai wife with you was discouraged. I used an agent who helped me get all the submission attachments etc., ready. We went to Soi Suan Plu, no appointment and submitted all the documents to a clerk on the second floor. A minute later a snr. officer appeared and politely asked if I had time for a discussion on the spot. I said yes and we went to another room with my agent. The officer was very pleasant, a good listener and spoke perfect English, the discussion lasted about one hour and not one word of Thai was spoken. The officer read/scanned every document and asked several questions, mostly about my work and how it was contributing to Thailand. He mentioned pleasantly "I hope you're ensuring the young Thai staff around you are gaining strong knowledge and worthwhile work experiences." He also asked about my academic qualifications and shared that he was hoping his eldest son would be able to study in Australia and he asked for a lot of detail about one uni in Australia. He also said 'when the time comes can my son visit you to get some further advice how to register and how to get accepted. I agreed but nobody ever contacted me. After about 1 hr he said "I need just a few minutes to finish making all my notes then I'll talk to you again". We waited outside the room. About 10 minutes later he called us back and said "There will be no more interviews and on the documents I have strongly recommended your approval to receive a Certificate of Residence." He continued "The full committee will probably meet in November this year for the annual meeting, I am on that committee and I can pretty much guarantee you will get instant positive sign off by all the committee." From memory late November (same year) I got the approval letter. 

I add a little more. In the converstion/interview I mentioned just above (25 years ago) the Immigration officer never mentioned or hinted in any way anything re tea money and it was not mentioned or hinted at by myself or my agent. My agent was very thorough and very ethical with a solid reputation for no involvement in scams or shady dealings, my belief is that he would have forewarned me in advance if there was a need to have some 'strategy' ready re tea money. My agent never mentioned it in any way at any time. 

 

Further; yes I used an agent, however I add the following. I was working with a Thai lady who was a qualified chemical process engineer and a senior member of the business development commitee of the national petroleum authority. Her husband had worked for the same company (both had worked for my company for several years in the US).  A couple of years after they returned to Thailand he became restless re employment and decided to start his own business with himself as the front man and his wife behind the scenes because she was a senior exec. of her employing company.

 

She asked me one day in the office "Are you interested in applying for PR?" I responded "Yes I am, but right now I'm not sure how to proceed." Her response "My husband (who I by this stage knew quite well) wants to start an agency / a consultancy focus on foreigners gaining PR and later focus on gaining citizenship.

 

If you're willing he would like you to be his first customer, but because it's a learning exercise for him he would charge you a very small fee."

 

I thought about it for a few hours then agreed and he got started. As it all proceeded I was well aware that he was putting a lot of time and effort into getting it right, as per Thai Immigration requirement/policies/procedures.

 

Given that it was also a learning exercise for me, I now believe that I could have done it myself, but it would have taken many many hours of additinal work and seaching on my part.

 

Bottom line; I'm very happy I used an agent. 

 

The twist; just after my PR was approved my agent and his Thai wife both received an excellent job oportunity to both return to the company HO in the states. The job/future/reward level was something they couldn't refuse, both working in the global strategic policy development area, they both accepted and quickly returned to the US.

 

 

Edited June 21, 2022 by scorecard

[sas_cars]

1 hour ago, scorecard said:

I add a little more. In the converstion/interview I mentioned just above (25 years ago) the Immigration officer never mentioned or hinted in any way anything re tea money and it was not mentioned or hinted at by myself or my agent. My agent was very thorough and very ethical with a solid reputation for no involvement in scams or shady dealings, my belief is that he would have forewarned me in advance if there was a need to have some 'strategy' ready re tea money. My agent never mentioned it in any way at any time. 

 

Further; yes I used an agent, however I add the following. I was working with a Thai lady who was a qualified chemical process engineer and a senior member of the business development commitee of the national petroleum authority. Her husband had worked for the same company (both had worked for my company for several years in the US).  A couple of years after they returned to Thailand he became restless re employment and decided to start his own business with himself as the front man and his wife behind the scenes because she was a senior exec. of her employing company.

 

She asked me one day in the office "Are you interested in applying for PR?" I responded "Yes I am, but right now I'm not sure how to proceed." Her response "My husband (who I by this stage knew quite well) wants to start an agency / a consultancy focus on foreigners gaining PR and later focus on gaining citizenship.

 

If you're willing he would like you to be his first customer, but because it's a learning exercise for him he would charge you a very small fee."

 

I thought about it for a few hours then agreed and he got started. As it all proceeded I was well aware that he was putting a lot of time and effort into getting it right, as per Thai Immigration requirement/policies/procedures.

 

Given that it was also a learning exercise for me, I now believe that I could have done it myself, but it would have taken many many hours of additinal work and seaching on my part.

 

Bottom line; I'm very happy I used an agent. 

 

The twist; just after my PR was approved my agent and his Thai wife both received an excellent job oportunity to both return to the company HO in the states. The job/future/reward level was something they couldn't refuse, both working in the global strategic policy development area, they both accepted and quickly returned to the US.

 

 

Thank you for the detailed insight and really seems that it was a masterstroke to use an agent, but they were an exception, not the norm, of the agents available currently.

 

Out of curiosity, were you able to reinstate your PR since you were out of the country during COVID? If yes, if you could tell your experience here, may help somebody else on the same situation.

[Dogmatix]

2 hours ago, jayboy said:

That's the usual response on this forum, but for me using a lawyer worked well.He had been our company employed lawyer dealing with immigration for many years.There was no overcharging or pocketing of funds.

 

As a matter of interest do you have any idea of how much very roughly the police general was paid?

I hope so.But the evidence seems mixed.

I am not saying that agents and lawyers are all thieves.  Many people find them useful and the competent ones do a good job preparing documentation and advising on how to go about the application which is worth the price.  But there are some that always insist an under the counter payment is needed, even when it may not be, and I have heard from people who paid up and felt they got no benefit and felt their agent probably pocketed the bribe.  I approached a lawyer before I applied and the first thing out of his mouth was it will cost a lot in under the couter fees but it turned out he knew almost nothing about the process. I think a lot of the skuduggery goes on with Chinese applicants, since they sometimes hit the annual quota of 100 per nationality which allows Immigration to select who will go through.  I was once many years ago in the office of a Mandarin speaking Pol Maj Gen at Immigration and he had a queue of Chinese outside his door, whom I was told were all interested in obtaining PR.  In the citizenship office of Santiban you can sometimes see Chinese speaking agents waltzing in with their clients and acting like they owned the place. 

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, Dogmatix said:

I am not saying that agents and lawyers are all thieves.  Many people find them useful and the competent ones do a good job preparing documentation and advising on how to go about the application which is worth the price.  But there are some that always insist an under the counter payment is needed, even when it may not be, and I have heard from people who paid up and felt they got no benefit and felt their agent probably pocketed the bribe.  I approached a lawyer before I applied and the first thing out of his mouth was it will cost a lot in under the couter fees but it turned out he knew almost nothing about the process. I think a lot of the skuduggery goes on with Chinese applicants, since they sometimes hit the annual quota of 100 per nationality which allows Immigration to select who will go through.  I was once many years ago in the office of a Mandarin speaking Pol Maj Gen at Immigration and he had a queue of Chinese outside his door, whom I was told were all interested in obtaining PR.  In the citizenship office of Santiban you can sometimes see Chinese speaking agents waltzing in with their clients and acting like they owned the place. 

Sure, some agents are good, some are rogues. I couldn't fault the agent who helped me with PR, sincere, friendly, focused and never once mentioned extra fees / tea money. 

 

On the other hand I'm aware there's a Visa agent in Chiang Mai who has been telling people he helps (helps with new and renewal of various Visas) that if farang hold one of the many typical Thai visas for a block period of 10 years they are automatically entitled to PR. No extra official paper work neded, but very very big official fees. Agent also tells people that they must use the same agent for the 10 years, and they must never personally go to the Imm. office, that would automatically invalidate their PR entitlement. 

 

All BS of course.

 

 

[Michael Hare]

It seems very difficult to get PR these days. Back in 2002 when I first applied, I did everything myself. I was applying under the cheapest category available to me, which was based on being married to a Thai and with a dependent child. I live in Ubon Ratchathani and I flew down to Bangkok and went to Soi Suan Plu four times. The first to apply, the second for my wife to be interviewed, the third for the Thai language tests and the fourth and last time to get my PR and pay the money. The whole process was straight forward and took two and half years. My wife only went once, the second time.

[Arkady]

2 hours ago, Michael Hare said:

It seems very difficult to get PR these days. Back in 2002 when I first applied, I did everything myself. I was applying under the cheapest category available to me, which was based on being married to a Thai and with a dependent child. I live in Ubon Ratchathani and I flew down to Bangkok and went to Soi Suan Plu four times. The first to apply, the second for my wife to be interviewed, the third for the Thai language tests and the fourth and last time to get my PR and pay the money. The whole process was straight forward and took two and half years. My wife only went once, the second time.

Actually it had just got harder and longer when you applied, as Thaksin's xenophobic interior minister, Purachai, with property in NZ and  PR and children at school there made things harder. Previously Immigration more or less guaranteed those fully qualified would get their PR before window opened again the following year.  I did get mine in 1997 in just under a year a few days before they re-opened the window but there were two earlier batches that got theirs around June and September.  Six months was not considered unusual then. Purachai also introduced the language test and the required documentation got progressively harder.  Then things got even worse in the mid to late 2000s and they started making people wait 5-7 years which was the situation when the 2014 coup happened and straightened things out. A number of people were rejected out of hand in that period without being given a reason.  A Swiss guy sued the Purachai in the Administrative Court for rejecting  him without cause.  The case took about three years going through the courts and the Supreme Administrative Court upheld the rejection on the grounds that the Immigration Act gives the minister complete discretion to decide whatever he pleases.  The Swiss guy would have done better to save his money and quietly reapply after Purachai was dumped by Thaksin for becoming too popular and thereby a threat to him. 

[Arkady]

5 hours ago, scorecard said:

Sure, some agents are good, some are rogues. I couldn't fault the agent who helped me with PR, sincere, friendly, focused and never once mentioned extra fees / tea money. 

 

On the other hand I'm aware there's a Visa agent in Chiang Mai who has been telling people he helps (helps with new and renewal of various Visas) that if farang hold one of the many typical Thai visas for a block period of 10 years they are automatically entitled to PR. No extra official paper work neded, but very very big official fees. Agent also tells people that they must use the same agent for the 10 years, and they must never personally go to the Imm. office, that would automatically invalidate their PR entitlement. 

 

All BS of course.

That scam sounds so unconvincing that it's amazing anyone would fall for it but there's one born every minute like the Thai lady who CFO of  Essilor Thailand and fell for a Nigerian operated romance scam. She transferred 6 billion baht of Essilor's money to the scamsters over a couple of years and never met the fantasy American Chinese man she fell in love with. 

 

I didn't use an agent for my PR but I couldn't have done it without a very efficient secretary. You certainly need some help of some sort, if you very busy at work.  I did use an agent, who came highly recommended by a friend who had used her for PR,  for citizenship for a short while though.  That was because in the pre-coup period it was taking me an inordinate amount of time without even getting to the interview stage and I got nothing from regularly calling the police or the ministry.  She did earn her money which was I think 70k by going to the ministry and finding out that the police had made a stupid mistake in my application that could have got me rejected, if it had been spotted only at the interview stage. So I was able to have the file sent back to the police to be corrected which took six months, rather than be rejected. After that the agent started saying that she needed at least 500k to pay bribes and dropped me as a client after a very insulting row with Mrs Arkady when I refused. After I got the application corrected by the police and resubmitted to the ministry the application actually went quite smoothly and fast. So I was glad I didn't pay her and suspected that she would have kept the lot but claimed credit for success and I would have been none the wiser. Someone who used her after me more recently against my advice later complained he got nothing for the several hundred thousand in VIP fees he had paid her.

 

Those were my experiences but things change and I don't doubt what Misty and others are saying.  As Jayboy commented, if you choose to pay someone it is hard to know whether they have the right connections to make a difference. You have no recourse because there will nothing in writing saying it was anything more than a normal fee.

[Michael Hare]

13 hours ago, Arkady said:

That scam sounds so unconvincing that it's amazing anyone would fall for it but there's one born every minute like the Thai lady who CFO of  Essilor Thailand and fell for a Nigerian operated romance scam. She transferred 6 billion baht of Essilor's money to the scamsters over a couple of years and never met the fantasy American Chinese man she fell in love with. 

 

I didn't use an agent for my PR but I couldn't have done it without a very efficient secretary. You certainly need some help of some sort, if you very busy at work.  I did use an agent, who came highly recommended by a friend who had used her for PR,  for citizenship for a short while though.  That was because in the pre-coup period it was taking me an inordinate amount of time without even getting to the interview stage and I got nothing from regularly calling the police or the ministry.  She did earn her money which was I think 70k by going to the ministry and finding out that the police had made a stupid mistake in my application that could have got me rejected, if it had been spotted only at the interview stage. So I was able to have the file sent back to the police to be corrected which took six months, rather than be rejected. After that the agent started saying that she needed at least 500k to pay bribes and dropped me as a client after a very insulting row with Mrs Arkady when I refused. After I got the application corrected by the police and resubmitted to the ministry the application actually went quite smoothly and fast. So I was glad I didn't pay her and suspected that she would have kept the lot but claimed credit for success and I would have been none the wiser. Someone who used her after me more recently against my advice later complained he got nothing for the several hundred thousand in VIP fees he had paid her.

 

Those were my experiences but things change and I don't doubt what Misty and others are saying.  As Jayboy commented, if you choose to pay someone it is hard to know whether they have the right connections to make a difference. You have no recourse because there will nothing in writing saying it was anything more than a normal fee.

When I applied some of my documents were not quite in order. They needed signatures on all the tax forms and photos of me standing in front of our house with my son and daughter. They rang me up from Soi Suan Plu and told me what additional documents they needed. Maybe they were kind to me having to all the way down from Ubon. 

 

[Michael Hare]

14 hours ago, Arkady said:

Actually it had just got harder and longer when you applied, as Thaksin's xenophobic interior minister, Purachai, with property in NZ and  PR and children at school there made things harder. Previously Immigration more or less guaranteed those fully qualified would get their PR before window opened again the following year.  I did get mine in 1997 in just under a year a few days before they re-opened the window but there were two earlier batches that got theirs around June and September.  Six months was not considered unusual then. Purachai also introduced the language test and the required documentation got progressively harder.  Then things got even worse in the mid to late 2000s and they started making people wait 5-7 years which was the situation when the 2014 coup happened and straightened things out. A number of people were rejected out of hand in that period without being given a reason.  A Swiss guy sued the Purachai in the Administrative Court for rejecting  him without cause.  The case took about three years going through the courts and the Supreme Administrative Court upheld the rejection on the grounds that the Immigration Act gives the minister complete discretion to decide whatever he pleases.  The Swiss guy would have done better to save his money and quietly reapply after Purachai was dumped by Thaksin for becoming too popular and thereby a threat to him. 

I remember the whole situation with Purachai very clearly as it was at that time that the cost of the category I was applying for PR under, went up from 25,000 baht to 96,000. Being a Kiwi, I was particularly upset to know that Purachai got NZ PR and could buy a house in NZ. What a hypercritic. His family did very well with NZ education. One son has a high profile position in Bangkok. A daughter was in venture capital in NZ and has now gone into exploring BitCoin. 

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/blackbird-ventures-principal-tip-piumsomboon-quits-to-pursue-bitcoin-opportunities/NRAGA33T7VHCMQUHOOYNBY7NV4/

 

[Arkady]

4 hours ago, Michael Hare said:

When I applied some of my documents were not quite in order. They needed signatures on all the tax forms and photos of me standing in front of our house with my son and daughter. They rang me up from Soi Suan Plu and told me what additional documents they needed. Maybe they were kind to me having to all the way down from Ubon. 

 

In the late 90s they still accepted self-certified documents for everything except company documents but, as I was the company signatory, I had to sign those too. Documents in English didn't have to be translated.  No need for home country police record and nothing from embassy.  Not knowing what was to come, I thought it was a huge burden.  I remember going into the office at the weekend to sign all the documents my secretary had prepared and it seemed like the pile was nearly a metre high.

 

Considering that Immigration seems to increase fees about once in a generation, now that it is 20 years since the last increase, there may well be another one around the corner. Not only the fees for all types of visas, including PR, went up the last time but the financial hurdles for retirement and retirement extensions got massive hikes too.  I seem to remember the retirement extension lump sum in the bank requirement, which is now THB 800,000 and 1.6 million for a couple was only about 200,000 for a single and a couple before the increase. A hike in retirement and marriage extension hurdles would cause a lot of grief and departures.  Another good reason to make the effort to get PR.