Australia launches anti-terror raids

[samran]

So if a Muslim moved to Australian on a non permanent 457 visa he or she would be justified in doing sweet FA integration, just like you?

You don't know me. I work and pay taxes. Unlike many immigrants in the UK. Living on benefits while plotting against the country.

And a permanent visa is hardly the same as a one year visa, is it?

Glad to take your word that you are no danger. But what is good for the goose is clearly not good for the gander? How do we know you aren't a rock spider from the west? Come on, I'm a Thai citizen, I should be assured of that right, given there has been plenty of precedence of British rock-spiders here?

You've never heard of the police check I take it?

You're Thai? Born in Thailand? Or a wannabe foreigner who applied for Thai citizenship? Either way, I don't have to explain myself to someone who's accepted such a corrupt culture and one that has no desire for diversity or multiculturalism.

Touchy touchy now aren't we? Or are you just contemptuous of everyone who questions your 'logic'.

So if it such a corrupt culture why do you live here? You bring up your police check to justify your presence here, and then turn around and criticise the same system from which you derive your legitimacy. So which is it, I believe the police report, or because it comes via a corrupt organisation it isn't worth the paper it is written on and it is safe to assume you are a rockspider? I mean you make broad generalisations, why can't I?

And you justify your own piss weak attempts at fitting in based on your visa status? Talk about pathetic.

Again, the irony and hypocrisy of the anti foreigner foreigners. High expectations for everyone else, but nothing but miserable excuses when the same standards are applied to them.

I still don't understand your comment about working and paying taxes.. So of a Muslim works and pays taxes, then they are okay to follow their religion. But if they don't, they aren't? And what visa status should they be on?

So you demand answers from others, but are all of a sudden too good to answer when others question you? What was this about playing the ball not the man. Talk about thin skinned.

You really need to stop putting words into people's mouths in order to support your arguments or maybe your reading comprehension is just as you say, piss poor. I've rarely seen a post jumping to such ridiculous conclusions.

There was just to much BS in that reply to even bother addressing.

It's obvious your outlook on Islam is way out there but I take heart that your views on this backward evil cult are thankfully in the minority.

Bother or can't? Run away then dear boy.

The anti immigrant immigrant to Thailand. Don't fit in, don't learn the language. But expect others to do what you either can't be bothered to do, or have no intellectual capacity to do.

Either way, you are all tip, and no iceberg.

[H1w4yR1da]

Don't fit in? Eh? What on earth are you prattling on about?

Don't learn the language? Where did I say that?

Again, more invention on your part.

Continually referring to someone as racist is hardly an intellectual debate. But I've got better things to do on a Saturday night and Sunday morning than dealing with 2 Thai wannabes like yourselves.

BTW, my visa days NON-immigrant. Get it right instead of just making stuff up.

Edited September 27, 2014 by H1w4yR1da

[samran]

Don't fit in? Eh? What on earth are you prattling on about?

Don't learn the language? Where did I say that?

Again, more invention on your part.

Continually referring to someone as racist is hardly an intellectual debate. But I've got better things to do on a Saturday night and Sunday morning than dealing with 2 Thai wannabes like yourselves.

BTW, my visa days NON-immigrant. Get it right instead of just making stuff up.

You clearly don't believe in multi culturalism, and that people should assimilate. Yet you move to another country and don't bother yourself.

The wanna be Thai thing is funny, my birth certificate, ID card and passport don't say 'wannabe ไทย' on it, it just says 'ไทย'

And your non immigrant visa is long dead, you're on an extension of stay buddy. You are a migrant fella. Yep, one in the same as the people you despise. And you are on my turf.

[MJP]

Don't fit in? Eh? What on earth are you prattling on about?

Don't learn the language? Where did I say that?

Again, more invention on your part.

Continually referring to someone as racist is hardly an intellectual debate. But I've got better things to do on a Saturday night and Sunday morning than dealing with 2 Thai wannabes like yourselves.

BTW, my visa days NON-immigrant. Get it right instead of just making stuff up.

You clearly don't believe in multi culturalism, and that people should assimilate. Yet you move to another country and don't bother yourself.

The wanna be Thai thing is funny, my birth certificate, ID card and passport don't say 'wannabe ไทย' on it, it just says 'ไทย'

And your non immigrant visa is long dead, you're on an extension of stay buddy. You are a migrant fella. Yep, one in the same as the people you despise. And you are on my turf.

I don't think Islam believes in multiculturalism. If you can quote verses from the Koran that promote multiculturalism then I'll stand corrected.

Edited September 27, 2014 by MJP

[H1w4yR1da]

And you are on my turf.

Oooo! Shaking in my shoes! Maybe you can join the RTP. I hear there are some vacancies down south due to incompetence, racism and just being generally corrupt.

[samran]

Don't fit in? Eh? What on earth are you prattling on about?

Don't learn the language? Where did I say that?

Again, more invention on your part.

Continually referring to someone as racist is hardly an intellectual debate. But I've got better things to do on a Saturday night and Sunday morning than dealing with 2 Thai wannabes like yourselves.

BTW, my visa days NON-immigrant. Get it right instead of just making stuff up.

You clearly don't believe in multi culturalism, and that people should assimilate. Yet you move to another country and don't bother yourself.

The wanna be Thai thing is funny, my birth certificate, ID card and passport don't say 'wannabe ไทย' on it, it just says 'ไทย'

And your non immigrant visa is long dead, you're on an extension of stay buddy. You are a migrant fella. Yep, one in the same as the people you despise. And you are on my turf.

I don't think Islam believes in multiculturalism. If you can quote me verses from the Koran that promote multiculturalism then I'll stand corrected.

I'm not an Islamic scholar. Are you?

Many of the blokes on this thread don't believe in multiculturalism either. They hark back to the days of waspishness. Not too different on their approach to this particular topic are they? (except when they move to Thailand and don't assimilate - then multiculturalism is just dandy).

[samran]

And you are on my turf.

Oooo! Shaking in my shoes! Maybe you can join the RTP. I hear there are some vacancies down south due to incompetence, racism and just being generally corrupt.

That a boy. Finding another outlet for your anger are you? Must be tough having to move half way around the world to get a root.

[MJP]

Don't fit in? Eh? What on earth are you prattling on about?

Don't learn the language? Where did I say that?

Again, more invention on your part.

Continually referring to someone as racist is hardly an intellectual debate. But I've got better things to do on a Saturday night and Sunday morning than dealing with 2 Thai wannabes like yourselves.

BTW, my visa days NON-immigrant. Get it right instead of just making stuff up.

You clearly don't believe in multi culturalism, and that people should assimilate. Yet you move to another country and don't bother yourself.

The wanna be Thai thing is funny, my birth certificate, ID card and passport don't say 'wannabe ไทย' on it, it just says 'ไทย'

And your non immigrant visa is long dead, you're on an extension of stay buddy. You are a migrant fella. Yep, one in the same as the people you despise. And you are on my turf.

I don't think Islam believes in multiculturalism. If you can quote me verses from the Koran that promote multiculturalism then I'll stand corrected.

I'm not an Islamic scholar. Are you?

Many of the blokes on this thread don't believe in multiculturalism either. They hark back to the days of waspishness. Not too different on their approach to this particular topic are they? (except when they move to Thailand and don't assimilate - then multiculturalism is just dandy).

So far what I've read from the Koran suggests Islam doesn't like integration. So far what I've heard from those preaching Islam in the UK, Muslims don't believe in multiculturalism.

Personally, I've no bother with the idea of the whole World being all mixed up together.

It's always the Brits being accused of being anti-multicultural and as you well know the UK is the most accepting of pretty much any country regarding people of other cultures.

Islam doesn't seem to like multiculturalism. Thailand's immigration policy looks rather anti-multicultural to me too and I say that as someone who has three adopted children there who I support with my meagre income from hard work in Blighty.

Edited September 27, 2014 by MJP

[Tep]

So far what I've read from the Koran suggests Islam doesn't like integration. So far what I've heard from those preaching Islam in the UK, Muslims don't believe in multiculturalism.

Personally, I've no bother with the idea of the whole World being all mixed up together.

It's always the Brits being accused of being anti-multicultural and as you well know the UK is the most accepting of pretty much any country regarding people of other cultures.

Islam doesn't seem to like multiculturalism. Thailand's immigration policy looks rather anti-multicultural to me too and I say that as someone who has three adopted children there who I support with my meagre income from hard work in Blighty.

Often the scriptures of a faith may not provide guidance on concepts that are out of context n terms of the time at which those scriptures were written. I would be surprised if a 7th C document would acknowledge the concept, particularly when extreme assimilation seemed to be the order of the day. I would be interested in such references also.

I have read analyses previously that talk about muslims from SE Asia, specifically Indonesia not being accepted by middle easterners as mainstream. As you would know, the culture here is more tolerant and flexible. Also the sheer numbers of Indonesians means that their points of view would have to be recognised by other parts of the muslim world. Maybe there are racial and cultural tensions on this issue.

Scholarship of the muslim scriptures seems to be a highly regulated enterprise and perhaps examining these ideas is anathema to those who control the message.

But i don't see any excuse for a modern, mature future like Australia, with a multi-cultural tradition not being able to absorb and adapt to its muslim citizens. Expecting a medieval, closed society to do the same may be unreasonable at this time.

[MJP]

So far what I've read from the Koran suggests Islam doesn't like integration. So far what I've heard from those preaching Islam in the UK, Muslims don't believe in multiculturalism.

Personally, I've no bother with the idea of the whole World being all mixed up together.

It's always the Brits being accused of being anti-multicultural and as you well know the UK is the most accepting of pretty much any country regarding people of other cultures.

Islam doesn't seem to like multiculturalism. Thailand's immigration policy looks rather anti-multicultural to me too and I say that as someone who has three adopted children there who I support with my meagre income from hard work in Blighty.

Often the scriptures of a faith may not provide guidance on concepts that are out of context n terms of the time at which those scriptures were written. I would be surprised if a 7th C document would acknowledge the concept, particularly when extreme assimilation seemed to be the order of the day. I would be interested in such references also.

I have read analyses previously that talk about muslims from SE Asia, specifically Indonesia not being accepted by middle easterners as mainstream. As you would know, the culture here is more tolerant and flexible. Also the sheer numbers of Indonesians means that their points of view would have to be recognised by other parts of the muslim world. Maybe there are racial and cultural tensions on this issue.

Scholarship of the muslim scriptures seems to be a highly regulated enterprise and perhaps examining these ideas is anathema to those who control the message.

But i don't see any excuse for a modern, mature future like Australia, with a multi-cultural tradition not being able to absorb and adapt to its muslim citizens. Expecting a medieval, closed society to do the same may be unreasonable at this time.

But are Muslim citizens absorbing Australian culture? Integration is not a one way street.

Would you like to live in a Muslim country under Sharia law? I know I wouldn't.

[Tep]

So far what I've read from the Koran suggests Islam doesn't like integration. So far what I've heard from those preaching Islam in the UK, Muslims don't believe in multiculturalism.

Personally, I've no bother with the idea of the whole World being all mixed up together.

It's always the Brits being accused of being anti-multicultural and as you well know the UK is the most accepting of pretty much any country regarding people of other cultures.

Islam doesn't seem to like multiculturalism. Thailand's immigration policy looks rather anti-multicultural to me too and I say that as someone who has three adopted children there who I support with my meagre income from hard work in Blighty.

Often the scriptures of a faith may not provide guidance on concepts that are out of context n terms of the time at which those scriptures were written. I would be surprised if a 7th C document would acknowledge the concept, particularly when extreme assimilation seemed to be the order of the day. I would be interested in such references also.

I have read analyses previously that talk about muslims from SE Asia, specifically Indonesia not being accepted by middle easterners as mainstream. As you would know, the culture here is more tolerant and flexible. Also the sheer numbers of Indonesians means that their points of view would have to be recognised by other parts of the muslim world. Maybe there are racial and cultural tensions on this issue.

Scholarship of the muslim scriptures seems to be a highly regulated enterprise and perhaps examining these ideas is anathema to those who control the message.

But i don't see any excuse for a modern, mature future like Australia, with a multi-cultural tradition not being able to absorb and adapt to its muslim citizens. Expecting a medieval, closed society to do the same may be unreasonable at this time.

But are Muslim citizens absorbing Australian culture? Integration is not a one way street.

Would you like to live in a Muslim country under Sharia law? I know I wouldn't.

I have lived and worked in Afghanistan. It was awful. Couldn't go out for security reasons. Once was eating with friends in a newly opened Russian restaurant when it was raided by the morality police. Dressed in suits. No ties Iranian style. They ignored us westerners and the booze on our table but not the Afghans there. Fear and intimidation. One of them was a Prime Ministerial advisor.

So I don't want to live in a Muslim country. I was there for the money. But do you see Australia becoming a muslim country? For Sharia Law - ok, I have wired in Aboriginal Communities in the Anangu lands and the homelands in Arnhem Land and they have separate indigenous laws for their communities. So there is precedent in Australia.

Australia in the next generation may not be what I grew up on. Australia of this generation is not even that. No Italian coffee shops on the streets or people from SE Asia during that time. But I just can't see it being islamic in the next generation. Not anything like it. Where muslim communities interface at the edges with mainstream Australian culture, you will see the muslim point of view being influenced.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Tep

[samran]

So far what I've read from the Koran suggests Islam doesn't like integration. So far what I've heard from those preaching Islam in the UK, Muslims don't believe in multiculturalism.

Personally, I've no bother with the idea of the whole World being all mixed up together.

It's always the Brits being accused of being anti-multicultural and as you well know the UK is the most accepting of pretty much any country regarding people of other cultures.

Islam doesn't seem to like multiculturalism. Thailand's immigration policy looks rather anti-multicultural to me too and I say that as someone who has three adopted children there who I support with my meagre income from hard work in Blighty.

Often the scriptures of a faith may not provide guidance on concepts that are out of context n terms of the time at which those scriptures were written. I would be surprised if a 7th C document would acknowledge the concept, particularly when extreme assimilation seemed to be the order of the day. I would be interested in such references also.

I have read analyses previously that talk about muslims from SE Asia, specifically Indonesia not being accepted by middle easterners as mainstream. As you would know, the culture here is more tolerant and flexible. Also the sheer numbers of Indonesians means that their points of view would have to be recognised by other parts of the muslim world. Maybe there are racial and cultural tensions on this issue.

Scholarship of the muslim scriptures seems to be a highly regulated enterprise and perhaps examining these ideas is anathema to those who control the message.

But i don't see any excuse for a modern, mature future like Australia, with a multi-cultural tradition not being able to absorb and adapt to its muslim citizens. Expecting a medieval, closed society to do the same may be unreasonable at this time.

But are Muslim citizens absorbing Australian culture? Integration is not a one way street.

Would you like to live in a Muslim country under Sharia law? I know I wouldn't.

Sure there are. As pointed out, one even plays at the highest levels of Australian rules football. You don't get more integrated than that. Got one as an MP and the afghan camel drivers are celebrated in Australian history.

What ever the Koran says I think you are placing too much emphasis on it as a text. I mean, do we start then having to worry about the bible? I'm not sure it gives comment on multiculturalism either...

Edited September 27, 2014 by samran

[MJP]

So far what I've read from the Koran suggests Islam doesn't like integration. So far what I've heard from those preaching Islam in the UK, Muslims don't believe in multiculturalism.

Personally, I've no bother with the idea of the whole World being all mixed up together.

It's always the Brits being accused of being anti-multicultural and as you well know the UK is the most accepting of pretty much any country regarding people of other cultures.

Islam doesn't seem to like multiculturalism. Thailand's immigration policy looks rather anti-multicultural to me too and I say that as someone who has three adopted children there who I support with my meagre income from hard work in Blighty.

Often the scriptures of a faith may not provide guidance on concepts that are out of context n terms of the time at which those scriptures were written. I would be surprised if a 7th C document would acknowledge the concept, particularly when extreme assimilation seemed to be the order of the day. I would be interested in such references also.

I have read analyses previously that talk about muslims from SE Asia, specifically Indonesia not being accepted by middle easterners as mainstream. As you would know, the culture here is more tolerant and flexible. Also the sheer numbers of Indonesians means that their points of view would have to be recognised by other parts of the muslim world. Maybe there are racial and cultural tensions on this issue.

Scholarship of the muslim scriptures seems to be a highly regulated enterprise and perhaps examining these ideas is anathema to those who control the message.

But i don't see any excuse for a modern, mature future like Australia, with a multi-cultural tradition not being able to absorb and adapt to its muslim citizens. Expecting a medieval, closed society to do the same may be unreasonable at this time.

But are Muslim citizens absorbing Australian culture? Integration is not a one way street.

Would you like to live in a Muslim country under Sharia law? I know I wouldn't.

I have lived and worked in Afghanistan. It was awful. Couldn't go out for security reasons. Once was eating with friends in a newly opened Russian restaurant when it was raided by the morality police. Dressed in suits. No ties Iranian style. They ignored us westerners and the booze on our table but not the Afghans there. Fear and intimidation. One of them was a Prime Ministerial advisor.

So I don't want to live in a Muslim country. I was there for the money. But do you see Australia becoming a muslim country? For Sharia Law - ok, I have wired in Aboriginal Communities in the Anangu lands and the homelands in Arnhem Land and they have separate indigenous laws for their communities. So there is precedent in Australia.

Australia in the next generation may now be what I grew up on. Australia of this generation is not even that. No Italian coffee shops on the streets or people from SE Asia during that time. But I just can't see it being islamic in the next generation. Not anything like it. Where muslim communities interface at the edges with mainstream Australian culture, you will see the muslim point of view being influenced.

I know nothing about Australia. Never been there. But I think it's not outside the realms of possibility that some countries that are now civilised will become less so under increasing Islamic doctrine from an increasing proportion of Muslims, the birth rate alone tells me that.

If you give even a passing nod to the rights of women and children, I can't see how anyone can defend Islamic scripture and teachings.

Have a look at Afghanistan in the 60's . . .

http://all-that-is-interesting.com/1960s-afghanistan#1

Was it just the Russian invasion that changed all this? Genuine question, because I don't know the answer.

[samran]

So far what I've read from the Koran suggests Islam doesn't like integration. So far what I've heard from those preaching Islam in the UK, Muslims don't believe in multiculturalism.

Personally, I've no bother with the idea of the whole World being all mixed up together.

It's always the Brits being accused of being anti-multicultural and as you well know the UK is the most accepting of pretty much any country regarding people of other cultures.

Islam doesn't seem to like multiculturalism. Thailand's immigration policy looks rather anti-multicultural to me too and I say that as someone who has three adopted children there who I support with my meagre income from hard work in Blighty.

Often the scriptures of a faith may not provide guidance on concepts that are out of context n terms of the time at which those scriptures were written. I would be surprised if a 7th C document would acknowledge the concept, particularly when extreme assimilation seemed to be the order of the day. I would be interested in such references also.

I have read analyses previously that talk about muslims from SE Asia, specifically Indonesia not being accepted by middle easterners as mainstream. As you would know, the culture here is more tolerant and flexible. Also the sheer numbers of Indonesians means that their points of view would have to be recognised by other parts of the muslim world. Maybe there are racial and cultural tensions on this issue.

Scholarship of the muslim scriptures seems to be a highly regulated enterprise and perhaps examining these ideas is anathema to those who control the message.

But i don't see any excuse for a modern, mature future like Australia, with a multi-cultural tradition not being able to absorb and adapt to its muslim citizens. Expecting a medieval, closed society to do the same may be unreasonable at this time.

But are Muslim citizens absorbing Australian culture? Integration is not a one way street.

Would you like to live in a Muslim country under Sharia law? I know I wouldn't.

I have lived and worked in Afghanistan. It was awful. Couldn't go out for security reasons. Once was eating with friends in a newly opened Russian restaurant when it was raided by the morality police. Dressed in suits. No ties Iranian style. They ignored us westerners and the booze on our table but not the Afghans there. Fear and intimidation. One of them was a Prime Ministerial advisor.

So I don't want to live in a Muslim country. I was there for the money. But do you see Australia becoming a muslim country? For Sharia Law - ok, I have wired in Aboriginal Communities in the Anangu lands and the homelands in Arnhem Land and they have separate indigenous laws for their communities. So there is precedent in Australia.

Australia in the next generation may now be what I grew up on. Australia of this generation is not even that. No Italian coffee shops on the streets or people from SE Asia during that time. But I just can't see it being islamic in the next generation. Not anything like it. Where muslim communities interface at the edges with mainstream Australian culture, you will see the muslim point of view being influenced.

I know nothing about Australia. Never been there. But I think it's not outside the realms of possibility that some countries that are now civilised will become less so under increasing Islamic doctrine from an increasing proportion of Muslims, the birth rate alone tells me that.

If you give even a passing nod to the rights of women and children, I can't see how anyone can defend Islamic scripture and teachings.

Have a look at Afghanistan in the 60's . . .

http://all-that-is-interesting.com/1960s-afghanistan#1

Was it just the Russian invasion that changed all this? Genuine question, because I don't know the answer.

Israel is a modern democratic country. It is young, open to migrants and probably is the best parallel to Australia on many fronts. I've been there many times and have a keen interest in Israeli history.

It is the Jewish state, but it is inherently secular in its institutions. It also has a 25% Arab Israeli population who are clearly happy living in that situation.

So we have precedence in a country where you probably expect it be the last place to happen. I'm pretty sure that countries like Australia will remain as is, I'm certainly not falling for the hysteria of sharia law from the right wing nut jobs. If a place like Israel pulls off the secular state with a 25% Muslim population, no way in hell a place like Australia is going to become cast under some sort of Islamic doctrine where the Muslim population is tiny in comparison.

Edited September 27, 2014 by samran

[MJP]

^^ Right. So it's not Islam. The problem is Islamic extremism.

Because those in IS and Al-Qaeda seem to place lethal emphasis on Islamic scripture.

[NeverSure]

"There is none so blind as he who chooses not to see."

Jihadists not only refuse to blend in to Western countries, they demand that they bring their own culture, laws and even courts with them. They make a mockery of multiculturalism.

Every time someone tries to use an equivalency with a Western religion including religious schools, he fails to see that those schools and religions don't teach that any who don't join them must die. He fails to see the worldwide mass murders of the Jihadists as unique.

Comparing Islamists moving to the UK to Western expats in Thailand is crazy. The Westerners know they are guests, can't force their laws or culture on Thais, can't set up neighborhoods they rule and scare Thais from entering, can't claim government monetary, housing and health benefits... They don't come to kill the Thais as a religious ideal.

Sometimes I can't believe I'm reading what I read here.

[simple1]

I know nothing about Australia. Never been there. But I think it's not outside the realms of possibility that some countries that are now civilised will become less so under increasing Islamic doctrine from an increasing proportion of Muslims, the birth rate alone tells me that.

If you give even a passing nod to the rights of women and children, I can't see how anyone can defend Islamic scripture and teachings.

Have a look at Afghanistan in the 60's . . .

http://all-that-is-interesting.com/1960s-afghanistan#1

Was it just the Russian invasion that changed all this? Genuine question, because I don't know the answer.

First of all, in parallel to Western countries, it is well documented that the birth rates for Muslim families are dropping dramatically. Current average in a number of Muslim majority countries is around 2.x% per family.

Even if Sharia Civil Law were to be officially recognised in Australia (currently highly unlikely), as it is in the UK, Thailand and so on, current Civil Law will always have precedence; pluralistic legislation is not permitted.

Islam does not permit discrimination based upon ethnicity as is very clear with those attending Haj. Some individuals will of course hold different views. Islam put in place laws for the rights of women, approx 1,000 years prior to today's Western countries. We all know that Islamic countries have blocked further development of social justice; there is a body of thought that a primary reason is the Islamic clerics / scholars have and are pandering to the wishes of the rulers for continual subjugation and oppression.

Just my opinion, but after continual warfare in Afghanistan, cruelty and oppression were the norm. Many people do not recall that the rise of the Taliban was motivated by inter-ethnic conflict and excessive cruelty by the warlords after the Soviets were defeated. Initially the Taliban were welcomed as they bought peace to the country. Very quickly they in turn became the ethnic oppressor & also lost support in the concentrated population centers due to their extreme interpretation & implementation of Islam / Sharia Law. Today the future of Afghanistan is still open to question.

Edited September 27, 2014 by simple1

[NeverSure]

"Islam put in place laws for the rights of women, approx 1,000 years prior to today's Western countries."

What are you on (about)? Saudi women are so oppressed it's shocking.

"Each Saudi woman has a "male guardian," typically their father or brother or husband, who has the same sort of legal power over her that a parent has over a child. She needs his formal permission to travel, work, go to school or get medical treatment. She's also dependent on him for everything: money, housing, and, because the driving ban means she needs a driver to go anywhere, even the ability to go to the store or visit a friend."

LINK

[ozsamurai]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

If you believe that then you are truly naive, watch the doco, the full version and get back to me. Either way, I do not agree with EITHER of them, so get off your high horse. The comment and video was directed at the latest 'sensationalist' offering is all. Keep a cool head while others around you lose theirs, this is how you win the long battle.

Oz

It's actually Rudyard Kipling

[Ulysses G.]

False equivalence. I think not. There are many reports that some Islamists preach violence. This is wrong and needs to be dealt with. But don't try and tell us that the other side has not used and is not using similar tactics for their hate agenda whether it be gays, non christians or other minorities.

False equivalence is EXACTLY what it is. Christians are not teaching children all over the world to hate other religions and to murder them for their beliefs. Sure there are a few wackos, that call themselves Christians, committing crimes and spreading hate, but it is not a large movement backed by the clergy. Radical Islam IS.

[JockPieandBeans]

Tep says

So I don't want to live in a Muslim country. I was there for the money. But do you see Australia becoming a muslim country? For Sharia Law - ok, I have wired in Aboriginal Communities in the Anangu lands and the homelands in Arnhem Land and they have separate indigenous laws for their communities. So there is precedent in Australia.

So the Aboriginies, the native of Australia are now in communities in the Anangu land and Amhem land, with their own indigenous laws. It must be so nice for the indigenous people to be herded into a couple of communities by the white immigrants, a large part of whom were prisoners.

I dont want to live in a Muslim Country you whine. Why not ? You keep telling us that multi culturism is a marvellous thing. Oh thats correct, Muslim Countries dont do Multi-Culturism, apart from 1 that Samran took great pains to point out.

Sharia Law, is it being practised in Australia yet ? It was practised, in part, in the UK for many years before the cat escaped the bag. In fact, Muslim leaders went all the way to the ECHR, because they were not allowed to practice full Sharia. Thankfully the case was thrown out.

Your hypocricy is out of this world.

[samran]

"There is none so blind as he who chooses not to see."

Jihadists not only refuse to blend in to Western countries, they demand that they bring their own culture, laws and even courts with them. They make a mockery of multiculturalism.

Every time someone tries to use an equivalency with a Western religion including religious schools, he fails to see that those schools and religions don't teach that any who don't join them must die. He fails to see the worldwide mass murders of the Jihadists as unique.

Comparing Islamists moving to the UK to Western expats in Thailand is crazy. The Westerners know they are guests, can't force their laws or culture on Thais, can't set up neighborhoods they rule and scare Thais from entering, can't claim government monetary, housing and health benefits... They don't come to kill the Thais as a religious ideal.

Sometimes I can't believe I'm reading what I read here.

The fact is it is only a small minority of people of any one group who use religion as a cover. Christian extremists, Jewish extremists and Islamic extremists all use their religious text as cover. You don't agree with that, that is fine, but I'm not going to close my eyes to that broader reality as well.

But what I don't do, which you all do, is lump everyone one together and treat them like they are all potential terrorists. You do, I get that, but frankly it is irrational.

I'm not comparing Islamic extremists to migrants moving to Thailand. What I am doing is comparing people who have issues with migrants to their home countries and ask the obvious question: do you hold yourself to the same standard?

They don't agree with the congregation of peoples in their own countries, but yet do it themselves, and use the very bizarre excuse of their visa status as a reason why it is okay to do so.

You are also on drugs if you don't think westerners in Thailand don't organise and congregate, and yes, lobby.

At a very virtual level we have this very website which is a very clear example of foriegners needing to stick together in a foreign land. Every 6 months or so, another nut is along trying to set up the foreigners association of Thailand. The membership of Thai visa hang off every word and debate for weeks every nuance of a TV interview with some two bit immigration official and moaning for change to make it easier for them to stay here ('gimme a long term visa where I pay $100 a month to stay here).

If you think that is drawing a long bow then that is fine. But it there for all to see, in print here. How do we use existing rules here to our advantage? How do we change those rules?

But foreigners do lobby, every day, the Thai government to grant themselves special privilege.

The beer gutted, whoring pensioner exiles here from mud island might not see it, but we have a plethora of foreign chambers of commerce do just that on a ongoing basis. US and Australian citizen have the right here to do things no other foreigners can do. In the case of Americans it is to fully own businesses. For Australians, it is dispensing the need for work permits in certain circumstances.

The US chamber in particular has an extensive subcommittee system on every issue under the sun.

Law firms work to register foreign religious organisations here to spread the word. Americas own religion, the Mormons, have been mighty successful at that, using their vast monies to get permission for missionaries to come and preach, door to door and on the street. You think any of these guys need a work permit to do that? No. These guys get very very special treatment. Not even amway gets to sell door to door, let alone with foreigners. For the Mormons? Totally fine.

Now imagine the reaction of you blokes we replaced Mormon with Muslim, you'd be apoplectic.

How about keeping out locals? Foreign hotel chains, until basically the early 2000s when economic reality hit, basically made it very difficult for Thai's to book and stay at their resorts, in Thailand. It was a very common standard practice.

Even at a basic level, we get twits here on Thai visa everyother day floating around business ideas targeting 'foreigners' as their business model. It is just something that migrants - yes you are migrants - do as a first step when in a new country, to seek to deal with what they know.

Now let's be very clear here. Does this mean I don't think we should bomb the crap out of Isis? Or arrest every member of a Muslim terror cell in suburban Australia? No.

These personal attacks on me (or rather the lack of defence from the likes of you) are rather surprising given you know I'm a hawk on these particular issues and have agreed with you elsewhere of the right and legitimacy of Bushes campaign for instance, when everyone else was convieniently claiming the benefit of hindsight. And I back them again now, as they are the ones with the best intelligence making the best decisions possible for our safety.

What i do disagree with is the hysterical side show you blokes put on. Why? You aren't also going to change my view on the importance of individual rights and liberties, the similar founding ethos of both the US and places like Australia. To infringe those is very dangerous.

From a very practical perspective the targeting of an entire community bass on the actions of a few is illogical at best and more likely, counter productive. Why? Cause as I've said before, it makes it easier for someone in that community be swayed by the extreme mullah and you tube jihadis. You've fallen into their trap of utilising your hysterics and bigotry to all, making you the best recruitment tool Isis could ever hope for.

Edited September 28, 2014 by samran

[krisb]

Not all Muslims are jihadists.

But all jihadists are muslims.

[samran]

Not all Muslims are jihadists.

But all jihadists are muslims.

And all crusaders were Christians. And more lately, so were bombers of family planning clinics.

Jihad is just a word.

[krisb]

Not all Muslims are jihadists.

But all jihadists are muslims.

And all crusaders were Christians. And more lately, so were bombers of family planning clinics.

Jihad is just a word.

It's a very violent word.

[JockPieandBeans]

Not all Muslims are jihadists.

But all jihadists are muslims.

And all crusaders were Christians. And more lately, so were bombers of family planning clinics.

Jihad is just a word.

Samran

It is 2014 not 1314.

Some cultures have evolved, others have not. I wonder why that would be ?

[samran]

Not all Muslims are jihadists.

But all jihadists are muslims.

And all crusaders were Christians. And more lately, so were bombers of family planning clinics.

Jihad is just a word.

Samran

It is 2014 not 1314.

Some cultures have evolved, others have not. I wonder why that would be ?

Why? Cause they've provided their citizens with jobs, employment opportunities and the ability to get out of poverty. Ever wonder why Malaysia and Nigeria, both who became independent from Britain around the same time and both with very substantial Muslim populations have gone down entirely different paths in respect the the rise of the fundamentalists? Cause when you have a job to go to and dignity to be gained out of economic freedom, the need to have 72 virgins after blowing yourself up becomes a very poor second choice.

[JockPieandBeans]

Why? Cause they've provided their citizens with jobs, employment opportunities and the ability to get out of poverty. Ever wonder why Malaysia and Nigeria, both who became independent from Britain around the same time and both with very substantial Muslim populations have gone down entirely different paths in respect the the rise of the fundamentalists? Cause when you have a job to go to and dignity to be gained out of economic freedom, the need to have 72 virgins after blowing yourself up becomes a very poor second choice.

Nigeria as an example. have you lost the plot completely. Have you never heard of Boko Harem ? Is it beyond the realms of possibility that some of the insurgency that is being carried out in the Southern Provinces could be carried out by people based in Malaysia ?

And if you want to use the analogy of poverty, unemployment as a part reason for their actions. Then those actions should be directed at their unscrupulous Governments, who are milking all they can get.

Edited to add,

To keep it on topic.

Please explain why it is the responsibility of Aus, UK et al, to open their doors, welcome them, provide them with jobs, housing and money ?

Edited September 28, 2014 by JockPieandBeans

[samran]

Why? Cause they've provided their citizens with jobs, employment opportunities and the ability to get out of poverty. Ever wonder why Malaysia and Nigeria, both who became independent from Britain around the same time and both with very substantial Muslim populations have gone down entirely different paths in respect the the rise of the fundamentalists? Cause when you have a job to go to and dignity to be gained out of economic freedom, the need to have 72 virgins after blowing yourself up becomes a very poor second choice.

Nigeria as an example. have you lost the plot completely. Have you never heard of Boko Harem ? Is it beyond the realms of possibility that some of the insurgency that is being carried out in the Southern Provinces could be carried out by people based in Malaysia ?

And if you want to use the analogy of poverty, unemployment as a part reason for their actions. Then those actions should be directed at their unscrupulous Governments, who are milking all they can get.

What are you on about? Of course I've heard of Boko harem. Which was my point. Nigeria and Malaysia both were at comparative economic levels post British independence. One has prospered the other hasn't. One has a fundamentalist problem, the other doesn't.

As for Southern Thailand, you clearly know nothing. It isn't an insurgency, it is a shit fight between various gangs, including military and police on smuggling routes and turf wars.

The whole thing about independence is a side issue, often overlaid by those like yourselves who seek to muddy the waters for your own anti Islamic agenda. Thailand probably really shouldn't have been there ruling the region, historically and culturally it fits better into Malaysia.

Plus, there are extensive gas fields right off the coast there in the JDA, so who wouldn't want that for themselves. Your simplistic two bit analysis doesn't work here.

[jacky54]

I thought all of these Jihadists in the west were educated, and not begging in the streets, it's not poverty that is the blame for jihad, it's islam