Just got kicked out of thai with valid visa

[Thai at Heart]

On what grounds can they forcibly expel him from this airside area without a court order.

Good grief T@H... this is a Thai Immigration Law matter, not some Landlord trying to evict a squatter from his property in Bexley.

I think the answer is, in common with Immigration Officers in most every other country, because they can.

Since the mods have posted that they have some 'confidential' information either from or about the OP and they are letting this thread run, I think troll can be ruled out (for now).

The guy was busted for pure and simple visa fraud. End of.

They refuse entry, but what can they do to you once you go back to airside?

Is airside inside Thai immigration law, so I think they would even struggle to.legally force him onto any plane let alone one to France.

He may have failed to enter thailand, but forcing him to fly to their stated destination is not in their legal perview.

Maybe not forced to fly to France but with an entry denied stamp not many airlines will let him board a plane to any other destination than that of his home country as the chance of getting denied entry there is too great of a risk for them.

He had a valid French passport. That gets u into an awful lot of countries.

And that is not the business of Thai immigration...their jurisdiction ends at the post.

[bkkcanuck8]

Maybe not forced to fly to France but with an entry denied stamp not many airlines will let him board a plane to any other destination than that of his home country as the chance of getting denied entry there is too great of a risk for them.

He had a valid French passport. That gets u into an awful lot of countries.

And that is not the business of Thai immigration...their jurisdiction ends at the post.

A lot less when you have a denied entry stamp in your passport. A passport is not an automatic entry card into the country, even with a valid passport and having your country on that countries visa waiver list.... you can be denied entry at the discretion of immigration of that country (in most cases, the EU internally works differently of course).

Thai Immigration jurisdiction ends after you have left Thai airspace..... but you pretty well have to go home and get a new clean passport issued at that point. Who would sell you tickets knowing that their is a greater risk of being denied entry and potentially being found to be responsible to fly you back at their expense?

[Ace of Pop]

Hey Macwalen, if your school is so respectable, why do so many of your advertisements promote "Get an education visa!!!" instead of saying "Learn Thai"? Sounds like promotion of what your known for?

Thats a good point.

[kurtramsbottom]

Sawatdee... does that not pass as speaking Thai?

[brianp0803]

His staff is efficient at getting the initial paperwork completed to get an Ed visa and getting everyone their extension.

I don't think anyone enrolling at his school ever gets denied a visa or extension.

Very efficient business.

[Maestro]

Sawatdee... does that not pass as speaking Thai?

No, but sawatdi khrap might, but this topic is not about refused entry for not speaking Thai, is it?

[siampolee]

brianp0803 post 584..

His staff is efficient at getting the initial paperwork completed to get an Ed visa and getting everyone their extension.

I don't think anyone enrolling at his school ever gets denied a visa or extension.

Very efficient business.

As well may be .

But is it about education, or is it about the obtaining of a visa to enable one to pursue matters or a lifestyle other than an educational focused one?

[HeijoshinCool]

Hey Macwalen, if your school is so respectable, why do so many of your advertisements promote "Get an education visa!!!" instead of saying "Learn Thai"? Sounds like promotion of what your known for?

Thats a good point.

.

I'm not defending MacWalen, but from the perspective of a reasonably intelligent person, MacWalen's job is to attract students. It is the student's job to attend class and study.

The student's motive (a visa) is irrelevant, as long as he follows the law (learn Thai).

[jacksam]

Sawatdee... does that not pass as speaking Thai?

No, but sawatdi khrap might, but this topic is not about refused entry for not speaking Thai, is it?

Agreed.... The op was most likely refused entry because his passport indicates he was in Thailand for reasons other than learning Thai. He mentioned business in HK with many regular trips to HK. We got one side of events. Don't think io needed to be Einstein to come to opinion that Johnny was not using ed visa as intended. As the police say.....move along, nothing to see here.

Well unless your one of the people doing the same.

[MrWorldwide]

I'm hoping that's a typo, but anyone not catching the difference between khrap and khap is likely to find that the Thai smile hasnt completely disappeared. Khap has been a Godsend for me given that I'm far too lazy to actually learn a language where the intonation on 'ma' can mean the difference between a horse, a dog and your mother. I'm guessing that the OP knows the difference - he just doesnt know how to write either of them in the Thai script.

[Maestro]

As well may be .

But is it about education, or is it about the obtaining of a visa to enable one to pursue matters or a lifestyle other than an educational focused one?

Are you suggesting that if you were running a Thai language school, when a foreigner signs up for a course of study you would investigate whether this student intends "to pursue matters or a lifestyle other than an educational focused one", and how would you carry out such investigation? It is an interesting concept, but could and would you implement it?

[Maestro]

I'm hoping that's a typo, but anyone not catching the difference between khrap and khap is likely to find that the Thai smile hasnt completely disappeared. Khap has been a Godsend for me given that I'm far too lazy to actually learn a language where the intonation on 'ma' can mean the difference between a horse, a dog and your mother. I'm guessing that the OP knows the difference - he just doesnt know how to write either of them in the Thai script.

You're hoping that what is a typo, and what does this have to do with JohnnyBKK, the OP of this topic? Perhaps you should discuss these questions of romanisation and pronunciation of Thai words in the Thai Language forum.

[bkkcanuck8]

I'm hoping that's a typo, but anyone not catching the difference between khrap and khap is likely to find that the Thai smile hasnt completely disappeared. Khap has been a Godsend for me given that I'm far too lazy to actually learn a language where the intonation on 'ma' can mean the difference between a horse, a dog and your mother. I'm guessing that the OP knows the difference - he just doesnt know how to write either of them in the Thai script.

The romanization is actually "kráp".

And yes, the "r" is a soft rolling r sound that is often lost in when you hear it in spoken in informal settings....

[bkkcanuck8]

brianp0803 post 584..

His staff is efficient at getting the initial paperwork completed to get an Ed visa and getting everyone their extension.

I don't think anyone enrolling at his school ever gets denied a visa or extension.

Very efficient business.

As well may be .

But is it about education, or is it about the obtaining of a visa to enable one to pursue matters or a lifestyle other than an educational focused one?

A private school is a business - and it is in the business in this case of teaching the Thai language. The motivations of the student are not really important -- as long as he actually is a student. Thai immigration / Ministry of Education should have certain standards in regards to making sure that these schools that are in compliance and attendance should be one of those requirements. If a student is too often absent, they should be reported and the visa revoked. If a school makes fraudulent reports, they should no longer be able to offer visas in connection with school. How the school gets students is of little importance, it is afterall a business. If students are here for more than a years worth of study, then they should be tested by independent testing centres at the students expense and that should be used to determine future visas. If you aren't learning - or are not attending - the visa should not be issued and/or revoked.

[jspill]

As well may be .

But is it about education, or is it about the obtaining of a visa to enable one to pursue matters or a lifestyle other than an educational focused one?

Are you suggesting that if you were running a Thai language school, when a foreigner signs up for a course of study you would investigate whether this student intends "to pursue matters or a lifestyle other than an educational focused one", and how would you carry out such investigation? It is an interesting concept, but could and would you implement it?

Perhaps Google their name to dig up anything you can, right Siampolee?

[jspill]

Aren't most of us here for the lifestyle first, and the functional intention of our visa second. Expats here may be content to marry / retire / start a business, but they all decided primarily to do it in Thailand. For some, they would not have done so if not for this lifestyle being available.

[DaffyDuck]

As well may be .

But is it about education, or is it about the obtaining of a visa to enable one to pursue matters or a lifestyle other than an educational focused one?

Are you suggesting that if you were running a Thai language school, when a foreigner signs up for a course of study you would investigate whether this student intends "to pursue matters or a lifestyle other than an educational focused one", and how would you carry out such investigation? It is an interesting concept, but could and would you implement it?

Very simple - accurate attendance records would automatically take care of this issue.

With the allowance that if the student has a miserable attendance record, they can make up for it with a proficiency exam, for example. It wouldn't alter their attendance record, but it provide a proficiency record.

Look, none of this is rocket science - the only ones splitting hairs over technicalities or feasibilities seem to be those trying to justify the business of dodgy visas, or who seem to be on such themselves. ;-)

[brianp0803]

brianp0803 post 584..

His staff is efficient at getting the initial paperwork completed to get an Ed visa and getting everyone their extension.

I don't think anyone enrolling at his school ever gets denied a visa or extension.

Very efficient business.

As well may be .

But is it about education, or is it about the obtaining of a visa to enable one to pursue matters or a lifestyle other than an educational focused one?

A private school is a business - and it is in the business in this case of teaching the Thai language. The motivations of the student are not really important -- as long as he actually is a student. Thai immigration / Ministry of Education should have certain standards in regards to making sure that these schools that are in compliance and attendance should be one of those requirements. If a student is too often absent, they should be reported and the visa revoked. If a school makes fraudulent reports, they should no longer be able to offer visas in connection with school. How the school gets students is of little importance, it is afterall a business. If students are here for more than a years worth of study, then they should be tested by independent testing centres at the students expense and that should be used to determine future visas. If you aren't learning - or are not attending - the visa should not be issued and/or revoked.

People come to Thailand for the lifestyle.

The country offers visas for the purpose of attending class in Thailand. Already speaking Thai and not attending class is not the purpose of the visa. Fluent Thai speakers on Ed Visa and not attending classes should also have their extension denied.

People who have been here a long time and already speak and read Thai and could already pass a basic exam could fool immigration.

Informal schools are licensed by MOE because they provide documentation of curriculum and agree to report accurate attendance.

Difficult to measure the amount of students on Ed visa that seldom attend but rumors are the percent is high.

Visa abuse can only happen if schools are not accurately reporting attendance.

Walen school is probably one of the most well advertised and popular.

They have an prime location at Asoke Bts and Mrt.

Probably the highest customer enrollment of other schools accomplishing this with 3 small comfortable uncrowded classrooms.

[brianp0803]

As well may be .

But is it about education, or is it about the obtaining of a visa to enable one to pursue matters or a lifestyle other than an educational focused one?

Are you suggesting that if you were running a Thai language school, when a foreigner signs up for a course of study you would investigate whether this student intends "to pursue matters or a lifestyle other than an educational focused one", and how would you carry out such investigation? It is an interesting concept, but could and would you implement it?

Very simple - accurate attendance records would automatically take care of this issue.

With the allowance that if the student has a miserable attendance record, they can make up for it with a proficiency exam, for example. It wouldn't alter their attendance record, but it provide a proficiency record.

Look, none of this is rocket science - the only ones splitting hairs over technicalities or feasibilities seem to be those trying to justify the business of dodgy visas, or who seem to be on such themselves. ;-)

Using this logic then there should be a visa category for people that can speak thai already.

Give the money to the country instead of a school you will never attend.

[Tolley]

Immigration can do what they like whether you have a legitimate visa or not.

If they actually wanted to really crack down on visa runners and abusers of the system half the farang population of Thailand would disappear.

Bad luck for this guy but he isn't the first and wont be the last.

Just another example of selective enforcement of visa rules at the whim of an officer imho. Even if the OP had the cash they would have come up with another reason to get rid of him.

Good friend of mine who comes and goes from Perth to Phuket had around five entry visas over the last year in his passport was hauled over the coals in Phuket airport by a junior immigration officer. Nasty experience for him. They accused him of working but he is retired and very wealthy had around 5k AUD oh him but that didn't seem to matter one bit. Didn't want to let him in at all. Go figure.

Another Aussie retiree friend has about 20 entry visas in his passport and has never been questioned so go figure. I told him he should get tourist visas but he said that he comes and goes so often that it is too difficult to keep getting tourist visas.

Anyway for sure Thai immigration isn't as bad as Singapore where my TGF was held in the detention room because they figured she had been to Singapore too many times in the past year. I was with her and they hauled her off as we were heading to the passport control. So Singapore check the flight manifest it seems and grab people they don't like before they even get to the passport control. I showed them my Singapore employment pass but they don't me to go away.

Anyway it is not really a disaster for the OP he can come back on another visa.

[bkkcanuck8]

Immigration can do what they like whether you have a legitimate visa or not.

If they actually wanted to really crack down on visa runners and abusers of the system half the farang population of Thailand would disappear.

Bad luck for this guy but he isn't the first and wont be the last.

Just another example of selective enforcement of visa rules at the whim of an officer imho. Even if the OP had the cash they would have come up with another reason to get rid of him.

Good friend of mine who comes and goes from Perth to Phuket had around five entry visas over the last year in his passport was hauled over the coals in Phuket airport by a junior immigration officer. Nasty experience for him. They accused him of working but he is retired and very wealthy had around 5k AUD oh him but that didn't seem to matter one bit. Didn't want to let him in at all. Go figure.

Another Aussie retiree friend has about 20 entry visas in his passport and has never been questioned so go figure. I told him he should get tourist visas but he said that he comes and goes so often that it is too difficult to keep getting tourist visas.

Anyway for sure Thai immigration isn't as bad as Singapore where my TGF was held in the detention room because they figured she had been to Singapore too many times in the past year. I was with her and they hauled her off as we were heading to the passport control. So Singapore check the flight manifest it seems and grab people they don't like before they even get to the passport control. I showed them my Singapore employment pass but they don't me to go away.

Anyway it is not really a disaster for the OP he can come back on another visa.

Immigration at the border have much more information at their hands than any embassy. When it comes down to it, this person was just doing their job (others may be slacking off). For some reason this person had a suspicion, did a test, and found the person was not living up to being a real student... and that was that. I would have felt more sympathy if he had actually been attending classes and trying to learn, but as stated earlier - he was not really doing so. I think at this point the only visa that he will be able to get back in on within the next year or so would be the Thai Elite Visa. He is no longer married, so that is out. He apparently is under retirement age or does not have 800K to put into a Thai account - so that is out. If he went for a tourist visa on a clean passport he might get it -- but then he would probably be turned away at the border again....

As far as Singapore goes, yes they are very very efficient and have many layers of security there so it does not surprise me. There are plain clothes security mixed throughout the airport that you would be hard pressed to know that they were security (on top of the identifiable security). By the time you get to immigration, they have everything. Singapore has a lot of Thais that will go there on vacation and work for a bit and come back, so anyone that fits a certain pattern will get caught in the net.

[Tolley]

Immigration can do what they like whether you have a legitimate visa or not.

If they actually wanted to really crack down on visa runners and abusers of the system half the farang population of Thailand would disappear.

Bad luck for this guy but he isn't the first and wont be the last.

Just another example of selective enforcement of visa rules at the whim of an officer imho. Even if the OP had the cash they would have come up with another reason to get rid of him.

Good friend of mine who comes and goes from Perth to Phuket had around five entry visas over the last year in his passport was hauled over the coals in Phuket airport by a junior immigration officer. Nasty experience for him. They accused him of working but he is retired and very wealthy had around 5k AUD oh him but that didn't seem to matter one bit. Didn't want to let him in at all. Go figure.

Another Aussie retiree friend has about 20 entry visas in his passport and has never been questioned so go figure. I told him he should get tourist visas but he said that he comes and goes so often that it is too difficult to keep getting tourist visas.

Anyway for sure Thai immigration isn't as bad as Singapore where my TGF was held in the detention room because they figured she had been to Singapore too many times in the past year. I was with her and they hauled her off as we were heading to the passport control. So Singapore check the flight manifest it seems and grab people they don't like before they even get to the passport control. I showed them my Singapore employment pass but they don't me to go away.

Anyway it is not really a disaster for the OP he can come back on another visa.

Immigration at the border have much more information at their hands than any embassy. When it comes down to it, this person was just doing their job (others may be slacking off). For some reason this person had a suspicion, did a test, and found the person was not living up to being a real student... and that was that. I would have felt more sympathy if he had actually been attending classes and trying to learn, but as stated earlier - he was not really doing so. I think at this point the only visa that he will be able to get back in on within the next year or so would be the Thai Elite Visa. He is no longer married, so that is out. He apparently is under retirement age or does not have 800K to put into a Thai account - so that is out. If he went for a tourist visa on a clean passport he might get it -- but then he would probably be turned away at the border again....

As far as Singapore goes, yes they are very very efficient and have many layers of security there so it does not surprise me. There are plain clothes security mixed throughout the airport that you would be hard pressed to know that they were security (on top of the identifiable security). By the time you get to immigration, they have everything. Singapore has a lot of Thais that will go there on vacation and work for a bit and come back, so anyone that fits a certain pattern will get caught in the net.

Sure but my point is that there are many many people abusing the various visas in Thailand yet enforcement is really only done on an ad hoc basis or at the whim of a particular immigration official.

Further to this it seems that at times even legitimate or bona fide tourists can get caught up in this ad hoc enforcement although the OP in this case left himself open by not following the rules for this type of visa so clearly he was not a bona fide student as per the rules.

[jacksam]

Tolley , we only have op side of events. He didn't give lot of details about his passport except that he had business in HK and goes there regularly. If I was the io perhaps I would wonder why he gets to go to HK so often while at school.

He got caught. Rightly so

[The manic]

,,. it seems more than a bit suspicious as to why he would all of a sudden want an ED visa and less than surprising that he is subsequently denied for less than average Thai skills ...

... I am always annoyed when the occasional Thai ... doesn't want to speak in Thai ... despite their English often ... less than perfect.

To point 1) Not everybody is a linguist. They may have other talents ... and another approach to the country than by small talk ...

To point 2) I guess your Thai friend was as proud of his English performance as you were proud of your skills in Thai ... lol

Let us be mild on people!

Actually it's not about being a linguist. Linguists know about the structure, grammar etc. of languages, they can't necessarily speak them well - in fact I would expect your average expat, not known to be good at languages to speak Thai better than any non-resident linguist. I know a German linguist who lives in Germany and has only been to Thailand 3 times for a few days each. He speaks some Thai but terribly. He can barely understand spoken Thai either, yet he reads and writes Thai quite well. This is because for starters, he is rarely exposed to spoken Thai and doesn't have very many Thais he can speak to back home. When he comes to Thailand I'm actually surprised anyone is willing to engage him in conversation using Thai given he can't understand most of what they're saying, but there are actually some people who do, probably because they are also aspiring linguists and/or their English is too poor to hold a conversation.

2) you could be right, I never thought of it that way but I would rather be proud of say, my Chinese language skills than English. Anyone and everyone speaks English these days, if only a little. It's nothing special at all. But if you can speak Chinese then you are doing well.

Back to point 1) being able to speak the native language is normally considered to be a normal part of being a resident in a given country. How anyone manages to get by in Thailand without knowing the local language is beyond me...you can't read signs, can't talk to anyone except those that work in the tourism industry, can't travel off the beaten track, struggle to get anything done by yourself...and the list goes on.

But for whatever reason you have reasoned that it takes the talent of a linguist to speak any language other than English, when in any other country it would be considered normal for a foreign expat to learn the local language and be able to speak it. Maybe not fluently, but at least relatively well.

You suggest it is difficult to live in Thailand if you don't speak or read Thai yet in the paragraph above you state most people speak some English. And that is how people get by all over the world when they do not speak the local language, they try and communicate in English. Because it is the world language is the reason people are so proud to be able to speak it and like to practice it when they can.

[MrWorldwide]

Aren't most of us here for the lifestyle first, and the functional intention of our visa second. Expats here may be content to marry / retire / start a business, but they all decided primarily to do it in Thailand. For some, they would not have done so if not for this lifestyle being available.

It's how you fund that lifestyle which seems to be at the core of Immigration's current crackdown. The OP could have spent the 6 months in question at the beach enjoying said lifestyle, or he could have spent it working illegally - they made their call and he went home. For the record, I didnt work on any of the 5 or 6 tourist visas in my passport and I'm not working as a retiree - I believe I've met the obligations of all my visas.

[DaffyDuck]

Sure but my point is that there are many many people abusing the various visas in Thailand yet enforcement is really only done on an ad hoc basis or at the whim of a particular immigration official.

That doesn't appear to have been the case in this particular case, as the immigration officer did exactly what was expected of him. As was pointed out by the prior commenter - other officers would/could have just been slacking off.

Further to this it seems that at times even legitimate or bona fide tourists can get caught up in this ad hoc enforcement

Maybe, though it's highly unlikely - for what reason would they refuse or reject someone arriving on a regular passport, and receiving a visa exception?

Again, this is a case where a hypothetical fantasy scenario is being created, in hopes of inflating non-existent risks, and embellishing some sort of narrative that you prefer to present.

I had a situation once where I arrived with what would appear to be a dodgy passport (well, it gave the IO pause), as it was my third passport within 4 months. Upon arriving at passport control, the lady in charge looked ever so puzzled and called her supervisor, who looked equally puzzled... until I finally asked if there are any issues, or questions that I could help answer.

"Uh, sir, have you used different passports to travel to Thailand previously?"

In fact, I had... My original passport, which had expired after a prior trip, an emergency passport issued by my embassy, and my current, new passport. I explained the situation, and was able to produce and present the prior two (now, invalid) passports for them. This made everyone happy, and we parted ways with a smiling "Sawasdee!"

The difference is that I was prepared, and had the needed documents with me, just in case.

[jspill]

Aren't most of us here for the lifestyle first, and the functional intention of our visa second. Expats here may be content to marry / retire / start a business, but they all decided primarily to do it in Thailand. For some, they would not have done so if not for this lifestyle being available.

It's how you fund that lifestyle which seems to be at the core of Immigration's current crackdown. The OP could have spent the 6 months in question at the beach enjoying said lifestyle, or he could have spent it working illegally - they made their call and he went home. For the record, I didnt work on any of the 5 or 6 tourist visas in my passport and I'm not working as a retiree - I believe I've met the obligations of all my visas.

Plenty of people working on retirement extensions or arranging for 800k to appear temporarily in their accounts. I was replying to the crowd of posters who seem to be against the very concept of Ed visas.

[jpinx]

Nothing wrong with Ed visas, the problem is the long term abuse, encouraged by schools and ignored till now by immigration. Someone who has an Ed-visa and good attendance record will probably have no problems -- depending on how grumpy the immigration officer is that day The fact that immigration has decided to enforce their regulations more stringently is inevitable with so many people taking the mickey. Next may well be Retirement visa/extensions - which would also be because of so much abuse -- borrowing funds being the obvious one. The fact the some immigration officers now want to see backup papers to support the USA/Oz "Declaration of income" is just the first step. Immigration are not the problem here -- in fact they are giving everyone lots of warning and a chance to sort out the visas correctly, the problem is the scale of abuse.

So many people think that they have a "right" to be in Thailand by reason of their visa, occupation, property-ownership, bank-balance, whatever. What they studiously fail to comprehend is that NO foreigner has any "rights" to be in Thailand. We are all here as guests and need to be civil to our hosts or they will un-invite us pdq

Such bull-headed-ness will cut no ice if you're a foreigner in EU, USA, Oz, etc. You'll be on the next flight home

[jacksam]

Jpinx....applaud your post...sums it up perfectly. Could not agree more. Like many for long time used visa

Waiver....then screws tightened...use tourist visas. Now getting an O-A and will do it by the book. Genuine funds etc. If Thailand welcomes me as a guest at very least I can play by the rules

[mrtoad]

Aren't most of us here for the lifestyle first, and the functional intention of our visa second. Expats here may be content to marry / retire / start a business, but they all decided primarily to do it in Thailand. For some, they would not have done so if not for this lifestyle being available.

It's how you fund that lifestyle which seems to be at the core of Immigration's current crackdown. The OP could have spent the 6 months in question at the beach enjoying said lifestyle, or he could have spent it working illegally - they made their call and he went home. For the record, I didnt work on any of the 5 or 6 tourist visas in my passport and I'm not working as a retiree - I believe I've met the obligations of all my visas.

Plenty of people working on retirement extensions or arranging for 800k to appear temporarily in their accounts. I was replying to the crowd of posters who seem to be against the very concept of Ed visas.

I dont think.there is a crowd of people against the concept of ED visas, more about the clear abuse by a number of them.