Family of Brits murdered in Thailand say evidence convincing

[AleG]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11313714/Koh-Tao-murders-suspects-in-killing-of-David-Miller-and-Hannah-Witheridge-say-they-were-framed.html

Prosecution documents seen by The Telegraph allege the two men “repeatedly smashed and chopped Mr Miller's face and head many times, which resulted in his death”.

They are then alleged to have beaten Ms Witheridge until she was unconscious before raping her. Finally the men “smashed and chopped” her head with a hoe in order to kill her and cover up her sexual assault and Mr Miller’s murder.

His head wasn't smashed was it?

I thought he was drowned too?

Who was restraining Hannah at this gruesome point, or was she waiting politely?

How does smashing splitting her skull almost in two cover up a sexual assualt?

Are these guys the strongest Hobbits on record?

What a complete ant utter sham!!!

"How does smashing splitting her skull almost in two cover up a sexual assualt?"

It leaves no witnesses, for both the rape and the, murder of Miller.

As for the strength of the accused men, you could try an experiment, find some similarly built men and ask them to hit you in the head with a blunt object, a garden hoe or a bottle, as hard as they can... how do you think you'd fare?

[Luang]

I actually find the statement, if accurate, remarkably dispassionate.

Think about it, he didn't know were his son was and instead of the knee-jerk parental reaction of defending his son regardless of what he knew or didn't he went for the cold hard facts, he didn't know where he was or if he was responsible, that's what I call intellectual honesty.

OMFG!!

Yes, intellectual honesty, the thing that compels some people to, when they don't know something, say they don't know, instead of coming up with some made up excuse even if that is against their own self interest or that of someone they care about.

If you had a son and the police comes knocking at your door one day asking were he was yesterday because he is a suspect in a murder case, if you don't know for a fact were he was at that time what would be you answer?

Well, if it was the Thai Police I'd be real nice and say, 'will a 100 cover this boys?'

You walked right into that one!

[BritTim]

Exactly how is that an alibi for the defendants since he left them near the scene of the crime before the time of the murders and didn't see them again until 5 AM?

It is an alibi for Muang Muang, not the remaining two accused. Did you also notice that the English or Western couple could not have been David and Hannah before 1:00 am based on CCTV and various witness reports.

Ah, I see what you meant now. Still, it's a bit of a stretch argue that they had no alibi, therefore that's why they were chosen as scapegoats in view of the fact that since relatively early on the investigation they were focusing on three unidentified Burmese men that were near the scene of the crime drinking and singing with a guitar.

As for the time and western couple, there lots of western tourists in Koh Tao, so it may had been someone else; besides that "around 1AM" from someone who has been drinking leaves a lot of leeway; in any case I haven't seen any definite information regarding the time any of the victims were last seen alive.

So, the RTP were looking for three Burmese who were together near the crime scene three hours before they believe the crime occurred. This was, no doubt, based on the fact that (at an early stage) there was evidence that at least three people took part in the crime (although they might only have had one weapon).

It is known that David was spotted on CCTV around 1:50 am. One of the UK papers was able to acquire this clip. It is a great pity that all the CCTV coverage is not available (especially of Hannah leaving AC bar, in what direction, and who with),. It would make solving the case a great deal easier, but there must have been a lot of accidental deletions.

[Luang]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11313714/Koh-Tao-murders-suspects-in-killing-of-David-Miller-and-Hannah-Witheridge-say-they-were-framed.html

Prosecution documents seen by The Telegraph allege the two men “repeatedly smashed and chopped Mr Miller's face and head many times, which resulted in his death”.

They are then alleged to have beaten Ms Witheridge until she was unconscious before raping her. Finally the men “smashed and chopped” her head with a hoe in order to kill her and cover up her sexual assault and Mr Miller’s murder.

His head wasn't smashed was it?

I thought he was drowned too?

Who was restraining Hannah at this gruesome point, or was she waiting politely?

How does smashing splitting her skull almost in two cover up a sexual assualt?

Are these guys the strongest Hobbits on record?

What a complete ant utter sham!!!

"How does smashing splitting her skull almost in two cover up a sexual assualt?"

It leaves no witnesses, for both the rape and the, murder of Miller.

As for the strength of the accused men, you could try an experiment, find some similarly built men and ask them to hit you in the head with a blunt object, a garden hoe or a bottle, as hard as they can... how do you think you'd fare?

Smashing her skull will NOT cover up a sexual assault as has been proven in this very case! Did you fall asleep?

Re. the hoe and bottle: Well it would seem he wasn't hit with either of those !

Do you work for the Thai Police because you certainly sound and act like one of them! You know, like making stupid things up as you go along without thinking things through!

[AleG]

OMFG!!

Yes, intellectual honesty, the thing that compels some people to, when they don't know something, say they don't know, instead of coming up with some made up excuse even if that is against their own self interest or that of someone they care about.

If you had a son and the police comes knocking at your door one day asking were he was yesterday because he is a suspect in a murder case, if you don't know for a fact were he was at that time what would be you answer?

Well, if it was the Thai Police I'd be real nice and say, 'will a 100 cover this boys?'

You walked right into that one!

Walked into what? that, allegedly, the Koh Tao headman demonstrated a better sense of morality and intellectual honesty than you would?

[AleG]

Ah, I see what you meant now. Still, it's a bit of a stretch argue that they had no alibi, therefore that's why they were chosen as scapegoats in view of the fact that since relatively early on the investigation they were focusing on three unidentified Burmese men that were near the scene of the crime drinking and singing with a guitar.

As for the time and western couple, there lots of western tourists in Koh Tao, so it may had been someone else; besides that "around 1AM" from someone who has been drinking leaves a lot of leeway; in any case I haven't seen any definite information regarding the time any of the victims were last seen alive.

So, the RTP were looking for three Burmese who were together near the crime scene three hours before they believe the crime occurred. This was, no doubt, based on the fact that (at an early stage) there was evidence that at least three people took part in the crime (although they might only have had one weapon).

It is known that David was spotted on CCTV around 1:50 am. One of the UK papers was able to acquire this clip. It is a great pity that all the CCTV coverage is not available (especially of Hannah leaving AC bar, in what direction, and who with),. It would make solving the case a great deal easier, but there must have been a lot of accidental deletions.

There is no estimate of the time of the crime, the bodies were frozen/cooled before a pathologist could take temperature readings to do the calculations.

Obviously the only estimates that can be made are between the time either victim as last seen and the time the bodies were found (minus whatever imprecise estimate could be inferred from the bodies), so I don't know why you state so categorically that suspects were seen three hours before the crime.

[AleG]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11313714/Koh-Tao-murders-suspects-in-killing-of-David-Miller-and-Hannah-Witheridge-say-they-were-framed.html

Prosecution documents seen by The Telegraph allege the two men “repeatedly smashed and chopped Mr Miller's face and head many times, which resulted in his death”.

They are then alleged to have beaten Ms Witheridge until she was unconscious before raping her. Finally the men “smashed and chopped” her head with a hoe in order to kill her and cover up her sexual assault and Mr Miller’s murder.

His head wasn't smashed was it?

I thought he was drowned too?

Who was restraining Hannah at this gruesome point, or was she waiting politely?

How does smashing splitting her skull almost in two cover up a sexual assualt?

Are these guys the strongest Hobbits on record?

What a complete ant utter sham!!!

"How does smashing splitting her skull almost in two cover up a sexual assualt?"

It leaves no witnesses, for both the rape and the, murder of Miller.

As for the strength of the accused men, you could try an experiment, find some similarly built men and ask them to hit you in the head with a blunt object, a garden hoe or a bottle, as hard as they can... how do you think you'd fare?

Smashing her skull will NOT cover up a sexual assault as has been proven in this very case! Did you fall asleep?

Re. the hoe and bottle: Well it would seem he wasn't hit with either of those !

Do you work for the Thai Police because you certainly sound and act like one of them! You know, like making stupid things up as you go along without thinking things through!

"Smashing her skull will NOT cover up a sexual assault as has been proven in this very case! Did you fall asleep?"

Again, by leaving no witnesses, and again you deliberately omitted the full quote "cover up her sexual assault and Mr Miller’s murder.". They were not covering the results, they were covering their involvement.

"Re. the hoe and bottle: Well it would seem he wasn't hit with either of those !" How do you know what he was hit with or not?, for your information, in their confession the Burmese men said they used a bottle to attack Miller.

"Do you work for the Thai Police because you certainly sound and act like one of them! You know, like making stupid things up as you go along without thinking things through!"

I made things up? like what? I mean you must have thought that sentence through, so it would be easy for you to point out what "stupid things" I made up.

[Krenjai]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11313714/Koh-Tao-murders-suspects-in-killing-of-David-Miller-and-Hannah-Witheridge-say-they-were-framed.html

Prosecution documents seen by The Telegraph allege the two men “repeatedly smashed and chopped Mr Miller's face and head many times, which resulted in his death”.

They are then alleged to have beaten Ms Witheridge until she was unconscious before raping her. Finally the men “smashed and chopped” her head with a hoe in order to kill her and cover up her sexual assault and Mr Miller’s murder.

His head wasn't smashed was it?

I thought he was drowned too?

Who was restraining Hannah at this gruesome point, or was she waiting politely?

How does smashing splitting her skull almost in two cover up a sexual assualt?

Are these guys the strongest Hobbits on record?

What a complete ant utter sham!!!

"How does smashing splitting her skull almost in two cover up a sexual assualt?"

It leaves no witnesses, for both the rape and the, murder of Miller.

As for the strength of the accused men, you could try an experiment, find some similarly built men and ask them to hit you in the head with a blunt object, a garden hoe or a bottle, as hard as they can... how do you think you'd fare?

Smashing her skull will NOT cover up a sexual assault as has been proven in this very case! Did you fall asleep?

Re. the hoe and bottle: Well it would seem he wasn't hit with either of those !

Do you work for the Thai Police because you certainly sound and act like one of them! You know, like making stupid things up as you go along without thinking things through!

People that say David was hit with a hoe or a bottle like the pancake translator said are not sane, they are insane. Even the "early" RTP recognized that and pointed out a fight and wounds on his knuckles. On top of that the pictures of David his wounds, which are clearly to see on a certain FB page, show beyond any doubt multiple stab wounds. This fact alone will blow away the prosecutors case if they stick to their hoe theory. I am a 100% convinced they were from wannabe bad boy push knifes with one of the attackers being left handed. I heard Mon & NS are both left handed........coincidence?

Edited December 26, 2014 by Krenjai

[balo]

Oh well,the boys minder is back with rubbish.

Blabo: Why did his FATHER say he WAS on the island in 2 media interviews and change his story

immediately a new top cop was announced??

Dont ask for links, go get them yourself.

Then just answer that 1 question or stop your ridiculous he was in Bangkok repetition nonsense and go troll somewhere else.

I have already explained that 1 week ago . He left the island before it happened , it could mean he left 2 weeks before or days before. You can not believe every word written in the Thai press.

Absolute utter B S.. his FATHER said he left EARLY THAT MORNING to return to uni,. I DO NOT remember you explaining THAT.. Do you?

I repeat, answer the question properly or lose what miniscule amount of credibility you may have in the minds of the easily convinced.

I am referring to 2 different news articles that was published after the murders. Both of them had interviewed the father , which one is the correct version ?

Do you think that the father suddenly changed his mind to the reporters or do you think there is a slight chance that it was the reporter who got it wrong?

If you believe in justice you also have to have an open mind about this case. The son has been cleared , is there any chance that you might accept that he is innocent or have you already made up your mind?

Do you think I have made up my mind that B2 are the killers? No I have not , I still look for the facts, but so far the evidence is working against B2.

And also dont make it sound like its Fab4 on Thaivisa against the world , because its not.

[JLCrab]

Twitter posts by Andy Hall around 8 PM 26 DEC 2014 -- other posts are links to news coverage:

Andy Hall @Atomicalandy

Previous bail request by Myanmar embassy not supported with money, only embassy position & was declined. Lawyers assign embassy bail issues.

Andy Hall @Atomicalandy

Many questions regarding bail for Koh Tao case accused now arising. Bail can be requested by defendants at any time. Decision up to court.

Edited December 26, 2014 by JLCrab

[StealthEnergiser]

Koh Tao murders: suspects in killing of David Miller and Hannah Witheridge say they were framed Two migrant workers accused of murdering David Miller and Hannah Witheridge on the Thai tourist island of Koh Tao claim they are being framed by “influential people”

Two Burmese men accused of murdering British backpackers David Miller and Hannah Witheridge claimed they were being framed by “influential people” on Friday, as a judge in Thailand announced their trial would begin in July.

Wei Phyo and Zaw Lin, both 21, are accused of killing the two Britons on the Thai tourist island of Koh Tao in the early hours of September 15.

The severely disfigured bodies of Mr Miller, 24, and Ms Witheridge, 23, were dumped on a beach just yards from the budget seafront hotel where they had been staying.

“Did you kill them or didn’t you kill them?” the judge asked at one point, according to Mr Hall.

“No, we didn’t,” the men replied.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11313714/Koh-Tao-murders-suspects-in-killing-of-David-Miller-and-Hannah-Witheridge-say-they-were-framed.html

[DennisF]

Oh well,the boys minder is back with rubbish.

Blabo: Why did his FATHER say he WAS on the island in 2 media interviews and change his story

immediately a new top cop was announced??

Dont ask for links, go get them yourself.

Then just answer that 1 question or stop your ridiculous he was in Bangkok repetition nonsense and go troll somewhere else.

I have already explained that 1 week ago . He left the island before it happened , it could mean he left 2 weeks before or days before. You can not believe every word written in the Thai press.

Absolute utter B S.. his FATHER said he left EARLY THAT MORNING to return to uni,. I DO NOT remember you explaining THAT.. Do you?

I repeat, answer the question properly or lose what miniscule amount of credibility you may have in the minds of the easily convinced.

I am referring to 2 different news articles that was published after the murders. Both of them had interviewed the father , which one is the correct version ?

Do you think that the father suddenly changed his mind to the reporters or do you think there is a slight chance that it was the reporter who got it wrong?

If you believe in justice you also have to have an open mind about this case. The son has been cleared , is there any chance that you might accept that he is innocent or have you already made up your mind?

Do you think I have made up my mind that B2 are the killers? No I have not , I still look for the facts, but so far the evidence is working against B2.

And also dont make it sound like its Fab4 on Thaivisa against the world , because its not.

The following PROFESSIONAL people and organisations and members of the public have expressed serious concerns as to the handling of this case investigation and prosecution.

UK based fair rights group Reprieve.

Andy Hall well known and highly respected human rights activist.

Amnesty International.

The THAI national human rights committee

Sondhi Limthongkul

Head of Thasi forensics Dr. Pornthip

99% of the posters on this forum (estimate)

Almost 500,000 followers of a social media site that is in the top 18 sites on facebook

Change.org

The UK police who are just now starting to express opinions and views, none of them complimentary to the RTP

Lastly, and by no means least, the whole of the Burmese government has thrown its collective and not inconsiderable weight and influence into the believed innocence of 2 of its poorer citizens.

As for as I am aware this is unprecedented and not only can it bring serious consequences to international and trade relationships that are vital to Thailand it has lifted Myanmar to an elevated status on the international stage that Thaiiand can only envy.

Myanmar, its government and its people, we salute you, you are showing yourself to be awesome.

Please look at the lists above and tell me with what authority or experience you think that your version of events is right and the listed ones above are wrong?

[greenchair]

I don't want to throw a curved ball into the discussion, so apols if I am doing so. But on reading the news reports and seeing how the Burmese men continue to say they were drunk, I am getting this uncomfortable feeling that there is a possibility they may have actually witnessed the murders, or at the least, saw something that they shouldn't have.

I am quite sure (assuming the Burmese kids are innocent scapegoats) that they know nothing. They would not have been chosen as the fall guys if they did know anything, because of what they might say in court. There were two key criteria in choosing scapegoats:

• They had no alibi. The RTP partly screwed up on this as one of their targets, the third Burmese, was able to prove an alibi. He, also, incidentally, provided evidence that will probably aid the defense (the Burmese kids in bed around 5:00 am with no signs of anything out of the ordinary).
• They would not be able to drop any bombshells in court.

The RTP had to sift through hundreds of candidates until they found these two. Those who knew anything were threatened and fled back to Myanmar.

"They had no alibi. The RTP partly screwed up on this as one of their targets, the third Burmese, was able to prove an alibi"

This is what the third Burmese, Muang Muang actually said:

According to the testimony of Maung Maung, who shared accommodation with the two suspects [Zaw Lin and Win Zaw Htun], they were all three drinking and playing guitar on the night of the incident, the Burmese lawyer told DVB. Maung Maung said he left the scene at around 1am after they finished one bottle of beer each, but the two stayed apparently they wanted to continue drinking and playing guitar. He did mention that there was an English or Western couple at some point.

MAT representative Kyaw Thaung reconfirmed the testimony the legal team had been told. After finishing the beer and cigarettes, Maung Maung said he told his two friends he was leaving, but they insisted on having more to drink, so he went back to the room and got an extra bottle of alcohol and took it to them. That was all around 1am, he said.

Maung Maung said he then went to see his girlfriend and did not return until 5am.

Exactly how is that an alibi for the defendants since he left them near the scene of the crime before the time of the murders and didn't see them again until 5 AM?

The rtp say the murders took place between 4 and 5 in the morning. David was still bleeding out profusely when they found. This would not have been possible if it happened much earlier in the night. Maung Maung found the boys sleeping normally at 5 o'clock. No blood no bruises, nothing. Now I did see somewhere that apparently the boys went for a swim. So they would have had to single handedly dealt with hannah, then David, then gone for a swim, washed all their clothes, rushed back to their room with David's sunglasses and phone. Jumped into bed, pretended they were asleep. All within the space of 1 or 2 hours tops. They are 21 years old. It must have been very well planned, I don't think a 21 year could think that clearly.

[aimbc]

'We are victims of influential people.'

They said.

Good to hear it from the horses mouths.

Hmmm, They say they were drunk and have no idea who killed the pair. How could they know they are victims of influential people.

If you believe them, and I do, they know are being set up (they are innocent). There are not too many logical explanations that lack influential people pulling strings for whatever reason (note island mafia protecting others is one theory, but not the only one).

Remember, this is a translation and it may be lost in translation. I would like to offer that we look at the overall context of the situation.

• The island is run by corrupt cops. Which means they have confirm that first. One of it is by proving that migrants workers who are there without papers had to pay off the police in order to stay. That is source of influential people.
• There are so many illegals there that it's obvious that labor force is needed because the business owners require it. And I would go even further that family members or friends connected to the business owns these businesses. This is another source of influential people.
• The police can't be directly connected to the business owners for providing illegal labors, so steps in the Mafia. The mafia are the middle man in this illegal transaction. This is another influential people.

But at the end, everyone wins on the island, but as overall, Thailand looses. But that is another topic all together. These influential people are so influential, that the government has not done their cleanup duty on the island yet. How can there be so many illegals working there, and their allegation of paying the police a monthly fee to work there. Has there been any encroachment issue with public lands (or is this island rented out?) The current military has successfully reclaimed some of the public lands back, they should do so here. But there are enough influential people to stop all inquiry from happening.

I think these influential people need to be demote them from that status, then witness will start to talk.

But I am not sure how or if that can be done. But somehow, getting to these people would be the first step to minimizing the intimidation.

[aimbc]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11313714/Koh-Tao-murders-suspects-in-killing-of-David-Miller-and-Hannah-Witheridge-say-they-were-framed.html

Prosecution documents seen by The Telegraph allege the two men “repeatedly smashed and chopped Mr Miller's face and head many times, which resulted in his death”.

They are then alleged to have beaten Ms Witheridge until she was unconscious before raping her. Finally the men “smashed and chopped” her head with a hoe in order to kill her and cover up her sexual assault and Mr Miller’s murder.

His head wasn't smashed was it?

I thought he was drowned too?

Who was restraining Hannah at this gruesome point, or was she waiting politely?

How does smashing splitting her skull almost in two cover up a sexual assualt?

Are these guys the strongest Hobbits on record?

What a complete ant utter sham!!!

"How does smashing splitting her skull almost in two cover up a sexual assualt?"

It leaves no witnesses, for both the rape and the, murder of Miller.

As for the strength of the accused men, you could try an experiment, find some similarly built men and ask them to hit you in the head with a blunt object, a garden hoe or a bottle, as hard as they can... how do you think you'd fare?

Smashing her skull will NOT cover up a sexual assault as has been proven in this very case! Did you fall asleep?

Re. the hoe and bottle: Well it would seem he wasn't hit with either of those !

Do you work for the Thai Police because you certainly sound and act like one of them! You know, like making stupid things up as you go along without thinking things through!

People that say David was hit with a hoe or a bottle like the pancake translator said are not sane, they are insane. Even the "early" RTP recognized that and pointed out a fight and wounds on his knuckles. On top of that the pictures of David his wounds, which are clearly to see on a certain FB page, show beyond any doubt multiple stab wounds. This fact alone will blow away the prosecutors case if they stick to their hoe theory. I am a 100% convinced they were from wannabe bad boy push knifes with one of the attackers being left handed. I heard Mon & NS are both left handed........coincidence?

Punches.jpg

What do you think the possibility of a UK coroner report will be made available to the defense team? I wonder if it would provide an analysis of the wounds and what possible weapons could have made those wounds. I agree with you, the hoe or bottles could not have possibly made such an incision.

[DennisF]

@ aimbc

Here is a short section from the coroners advice handbook.

Inquests are almost always held in open court, where the public can attend.

Journalists may also attend and report what has taken place.

The coroner’s office will not release any information to the media which has not

already been made public through an inquest, unless the next of kin gives his

or her consent.

This means that any member of the public can go to the inquest.

Im pretty sure there are members on here who may attend.

[greenchair]

@ aimbc

Here is a short section from the coroners advice handbook.

Inquests are almost always held in open court, where the public can attend.

Journalists may also attend and report what has taken place.

The coroners office will not release any information to the media which has not

already been made public through an inquest, unless the next of kin gives his

or her consent.

This means that any member of the public can go to the inquest.

Im pretty sure there are members on here who may attend.

Oh thank you. very informative.

[jpeg]

Best article to date by far, from the Telegraphl. For the life of me I can't understand what the FCO are playing at re. their involvement with those family statements?! Almost appears they are colluding with the RTP!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11313714/Koh-Tao-murders-suspects-in-killing-of-David-Miller-and-Hannah-Witheridge-say-they-were-framed.html

Agreed. And the usual mantra:

"The British government cannot interfere with Thailand's judicial processes just as other government's are unable to interfere in UK judicial processes,” the spokesperson added.

Perhaps not. But we can collude in bombing the cr4p out of them if there's oil involved. Disgusting hypocrisy

[boomerangutang]

Did they say who this influential people are?

So now you're playing the dumb part? Oh yeah speculating isn't your thing is it?

Mind you it wasn't the Senior Thai policeman a thing either when he intimated David's friend killed them both in a jealous rage eh?

Your comments and responses bore the shit out of me too but they're great entertainment !!

No, I'm not playing the dumb part, did they say who this influential people are, and if not, why?

Unless you are satisfied with empty rhetoric and don't want to know the facts of the case you should be asking the same question.

See my 2nd comment below why it would be stupid and dangerous for them to say who they think committed those murders (though in their earlier letter, they mentioned 'influential people' and someone who was no longer in Thailand). In a weird twist, if the men who really should be suspects are ever brought to trial (very unlikely), the the B2 would be useless as witnesses, because of what they said yesterday.

I don't want to throw a curved ball into the discussion, so apols if I am doing so. But on reading the news reports and seeing how the Burmese men continue to say they were drunk, I am getting this uncomfortable feeling that there is a possibility they may have actually witnessed the murders, or at the least, saw something that they shouldn't have.

I could also fathom that the B2 know more about the crime than they're letting on. Their lawyers probably told them to keep it simple: plead innocent, ....say they were drunk, went back to their cabin to sleep.

If the B2 start speaking up (assuming they know what really happened), they could open up cans of worms, and endanger their lives. One morning we may read the headline: 'Burmese Suspects Hang Themselves in Prison due to Overwhelming Remorse.'

[SiSePuede419]

"But we can collude in bombing the cr4p out of them if there's oil involved. Disgusting hypocrisy"

Hear, hear!

Compliments to Tony Blair, Bush's lap dog!

--All the Bubbas down in the Tex-ass oil field trash

Edited December 27, 2014 by SiSePuede419

[CRUNCHER]

@ aimbc

Here is a short section from the coroners advice handbook.

Inquests are almost always held in open court, where the public can attend.

Journalists may also attend and report what has taken place.

The coroners office will not release any information to the media which has not

already been made public through an inquest, unless the next of kin gives his

or her consent.

This means that any member of the public can go to the inquest.

Im pretty sure there are members on here who may attend.

Oh thank you. very informative.

I believe it is usual for inquests to be adjourned sine die where there are pending criminal proceedings. I presume that will happen in this case.

[greenchair]

@ aimbc

Here is a short section from the coroners advice handbook.

Inquests are almost always held in open court, where the public can attend.

Journalists may also attend and report what has taken place.

The coroners office will not release any information to the media which has not

already been made public through an inquest, unless the next of kin gives his

or her consent.

This means that any member of the public can go to the inquest.

Im pretty sure there are members on here who may attend.

Oh thank you. very informative.

I believe it is usual for inquests to be adjourned sine die where there are pending criminal proceedings. I presume that will happen in this case.

Well, there are no investigations in England are there. So that should not be an issue. the Brits have already made quite clear. They are not interested in this case.

[draftvader]

I think it is worth a new post to reiterate 2 facts:

A limited and selected part of the evidence of the prosecution case was shown by the REGION 8 RTP to the families, delivered by GB police.

Their statement was released by the FCO who added the caveat that is does not necessarily reflect the FCO views.

The MET is now issuing radio interviews expressing its SERIOUS doubts about the investigation.

A lot of diplobabble but, if the MET is giving radio interviews, albeit on an afternoon radio show then make no mistake, it is a shot across the bows that the RTP and its sponsors would do well to take note of. This kind of interview is sanctioned at very senior levels and the content meticulously prepared.

In short, the GB police are pretty pi%%ed off at being made to look like the RTP and they are not going to take it lying down.

They may not be being as full on as the Myanmar government BUT they will make their views known.

I still have faith in the British police and its capabilities.

I also think there is a smoking gun out there and it will fire at some point before the trial begins.

Keep these threads populated with positive stuff.

I know you don't want anyone disturbing the echo chamber but...

Two facts?

"A limited and selected part of the evidence of the prosecution case was shown by the REGION 8 RTP to the families, delivered by GB police."

You have no idea what information and from whom the UK investigators were privy to. Uninformed speculation =/= fact.

"Their statement was released by the FCO who added the caveat that is does not necessarily reflect the FCO views."

The statement was released through the FCO not by the FCO, that's why the caveat. I'll give that a half a fact score.

As for the "The MET is now issuing radio interviews expressing its SERIOUS doubts about the investigation.", I presume you are referring to the one 15 second snippet at 1:01:50 here?

This is the transcription: "The Metropolitan Police says there is confusion and inconsistencies in the investigation in Thailand into the murders of two British tourists on the island of Koh Tao. Hannah Witheridge and David Miller were killed in September; Scotland Yard, which is observing the Thai inquiry, says there are questions about the strength of the case against the two men from Burma charged with murder."

Incidentally, a search on the transcript of the statement yields no results.

First of, that is not "radio interviews", it's a 15 second statement, second, you gilded the lily by adding SERIOUS to the statement; thirdly it's impossible to know if they are simply acknowledging what people feel or if the statement is the actual position of the Metropolitan Police, an actual interview would had been more clear on that regard.

In any case what is new? there have been many inconsistencies and confusion since day one, this guy did it, no, that guy did it, we have the murderers, oops, it wasn't them. So nothing new there, neither with "there are questions about the strength of the case against the two men from Burma charged with murder", is that acknowledging that some people question strength of the case or is the the Metropolitan Police position on the issue? Since there is no context to those that interviews 15 second statement (or even a source) it is impossible to say.

As one of the two people that transcribed this statement direct from the show hosted on the BBC website I would like to say that you picking apart the embellished statement that one individual felt was necessary isn't going to remove the following facts:

This news item did go out on the BBC

The BBC is very closely monitored. Even an out of place fart gets a written apology on their website within 24 hours

The BBC, though more politically compromised over recent years, has a reputation for accuracy in reporting. This line of communication (i.e. Met -> BBC) is a long established line and can be assumed to be accurate if not retracted, which it hasn't been

Potentially the poster you are picking apart does not understand the nuances of British subtlety. Let me explain. The statement may seem mild to non Brits. To us it basically says "What a MASSIVE balls up that wouldn't stand for 10 seconds in the British legal system, the Met would rather let the whole thing go than submit this evidence." In short that is what most of us Brits thought the Met would do with their new "observer only" remit. They didn't observe the "crime" but they observed the police practice. Nobody was stopping them do that and they probably counted on the uncontrollable egos in the RTP to allow this to happen. They had plenty of reason to know this would work as the RTP had run everything up a flagpole before it was checked before the Met arrived. The RTP have no frame of reference for the professionalism of the top boys from the Met as they have nothing to compare to in their own force. They probably assume (as anybody living here has observed in many arenas) that they are the best in the world so they thought they would understand any game the Met were playing.

So, you might wonder, what is the next step in the British game. Well being that they had information that the case was being expedited into the courts this week they put out their little stunt on Monday knowing that the numbers of Brits interested meant that it would be observed. Radio 2 demographic? The same as the Thailand middle aged demographic (i.e. a lot of us). This meant that it was flying about publicly here by the time of the trial. I'll bet good money the RTP are starting to inspect/re-arrange their evidence again in light of this.

Now? Well, the new year is the release of the report. I expect that we'll only get the press release version which will water it down again as the Met will want to influence the RTP but play as few cards as possible. As long as they keep the RTP guessing then they have some control. The RTP are watching their colleagues being arrested around them at the moment and probably don't want to attract any more attention than need be. Sure, inside Thailand, they have some influence but outside Thailand? Nobody could care.

In short I think the Met are playing poker VERY well and may well have all the aces (we don't know but the RTP know even less). Even if they haven't they know that the RTP have nothing worthwhile as they know the evidence is pathetic and compromised.

Slowly but surely the Met can play a game that sees the B2 released. With that done they just need to apply the pressure in the right places and we'll see the right people in their places. The thing is that the Met will play an extraordinarily long game. The RTP are not used to working cold cases whereas the Met rarely close cases and, if they do, are happy to open them up again and don't care if it take 10 years or more (check out "elm guest house" for an example of that).

Ball, firmly, in the Met court.

I look forward to 2015 with great anticipation.

[007cableguy]

Has anyone seen or heard about Nomsods brother ?.

Seems strange that he is never mentioned !

[AleG]

"They had no alibi. The RTP partly screwed up on this as one of their targets, the third Burmese, was able to prove an alibi"

This is what the third Burmese, Muang Muang actually said:

According to the testimony of Maung Maung, who shared accommodation with the two suspects [Zaw Lin and Win Zaw Htun], they were all three drinking and playing guitar on the night of the incident, the Burmese lawyer told DVB. Maung Maung said he left the scene at around 1am after they finished one bottle of beer each, but the two stayed apparently they wanted to continue drinking and playing guitar. He did mention that there was an English or Western couple at some point.

MAT representative Kyaw Thaung reconfirmed the testimony the legal team had been told. After finishing the beer and cigarettes, Maung Maung said he told his two friends he was leaving, but they insisted on having more to drink, so he went back to the room and got an extra bottle of alcohol and took it to them. That was all around 1am, he said.

Maung Maung said he then went to see his girlfriend and did not return until 5am.

Exactly how is that an alibi for the defendants since he left them near the scene of the crime before the time of the murders and didn't see them again until 5 AM?

The rtp say the murders took place between 4 and 5 in the morning. David was still bleeding out profusely when they found. This would not have been possible if it happened much earlier in the night. Maung Maung found the boys sleeping normally at 5 o'clock. No blood no bruises, nothing. Now I did see somewhere that apparently the boys went for a swim. So they would have had to single handedly dealt with hannah, then David, then gone for a swim, washed all their clothes, rushed back to their room with David's sunglasses and phone. Jumped into bed, pretended they were asleep. All within the space of 1 or 2 hours tops. They are 21 years old. It must have been very well planned, I don't think a 21 year could think that clearly.

"The rtp say the murders took place between 4 and 5 in the morning. David was still bleeding out profusely when they found."

I'm not going to accept that without a citation, first of becaue dead people don't bleed (at least) one and a half hours after death (the bodies were found around 6:30AM), secondly because the precise time of death could not be determined because the bodies were cooled/frozen before a pathologist could examine them. I think you are making things up, or repeating something someone made up.

Not interested in your fictional scenario though, it's based entirely in speculation and assumptions.

[AleG]

Smashing her skull will NOT cover up a sexual assault as has been proven in this very case! Did you fall asleep?

Re. the hoe and bottle: Well it would seem he wasn't hit with either of those !

Do you work for the Thai Police because you certainly sound and act like one of them! You know, like making stupid things up as you go along without thinking things through!

People that say David was hit with a hoe or a bottle like the pancake translator said are not sane, they are insane. Even the "early" RTP recognized that and pointed out a fight and wounds on his knuckles. On top of that the pictures of David his wounds, which are clearly to see on a certain FB page, show beyond any doubt multiple stab wounds. This fact alone will blow away the prosecutors case if they stick to their hoe theory. I am a 100% convinced they were from wannabe bad boy push knifes with one of the attackers being left handed. I heard Mon & NS are both left handed........coincidence?

Punches.jpg

"People that say David was hit with a hoe or a bottle like the pancake translator said are not sane, they are insane"

I see, the you are crazy if you don't belive what I claim without any proof to support it strategy, it's not very convincing.

You are not a pathologist, I presume, you only saw some pictures on the web, you are not qualified to make an assessment, let alone one that points at "push knifes". In any case the unsourced diagram you posted doesn't show any injuries in the hands.

[StealthEnergiser]

Just a reminder about what DennisF mentioned yesterday incase any person missed it.

Now we need to keep the threads and actions positive.

The fact that the prosecution is now seen to be flawed given the illegal entry charge, something they obviously must have known about

but made the accusation anyway is indicative of their ethics and probably the weakness of their evidence in all the other charges.

To keep the threads on topic and moving forward we need as many posters who can to ignore the baiting of the so called 4, they are here merely to disrupt and deflect attention from the real issues, none of them debate so their contribution is zero.

So I am asking please hit the ignore button or do not answer their posts. Please, for the sake of focusing on the B2, lets try to do it.

[thailandchilli]

Just a reminder about what DennisF mentioned yesterday incase any person missed it.

Now we need to keep the threads and actions positive.

The fact that the prosecution is now seen to be flawed given the illegal entry charge, something they obviously must have known about

but made the accusation anyway is indicative of their ethics and probably the weakness of their evidence in all the other charges.

To keep the threads on topic and moving forward we need as many posters who can to ignore the baiting of the so called 4, they are here merely to disrupt and deflect attention from the real issues, none of them debate so their contribution is zero.

So I am asking please hit the ignore button or do not answer their posts. Please, for the sake of focusing on the B2, lets try to do it.

Ditto

[thailandchilli]

Latest by the British Government 26th Dec:

We continue to monitor the case closely and expect the trial to be conducted in a fair and transparent way in line with international standards. http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-12-26/foreign-office-monitoring-thailand-murder-case/

So are we and will continue to post until this is done!!

[balo]

I have already explained that 1 week ago . He left the island before it happened , it could mean he left 2 weeks before or days before. You can not believe every word written in the Thai press.

Absolute utter B S.. his FATHER said he left EARLY THAT MORNING to return to uni,. I DO NOT remember you explaining THAT.. Do you?

I repeat, answer the question properly or lose what miniscule amount of credibility you may have in the minds of the easily convinced.

I am referring to 2 different news articles that was published after the murders. Both of them had interviewed the father , which one is the correct version ?

Do you think that the father suddenly changed his mind to the reporters or do you think there is a slight chance that it was the reporter who got it wrong?

If you believe in justice you also have to have an open mind about this case. The son has been cleared , is there any chance that you might accept that he is innocent or have you already made up your mind?

Do you think I have made up my mind that B2 are the killers? No I have not , I still look for the facts, but so far the evidence is working against B2.

And also dont make it sound like its Fab4 on Thaivisa against the world , because its not.

The following PROFESSIONAL people and organisations and members of the public have expressed serious concerns as to the handling of this case investigation and prosecution.

UK based fair rights group Reprieve.

Andy Hall well known and highly respected human rights activist.

Amnesty International.

The THAI national human rights committee

Sondhi Limthongkul

Head of Thasi forensics Dr. Pornthip

99% of the posters on this forum (estimate)

Almost 500,000 followers of a social media site that is in the top 18 sites on facebook

Change.org

The UK police who are just now starting to express opinions and views, none of them complimentary to the RTP

Lastly, and by no means least, the whole of the Burmese government has thrown its collective and not inconsiderable weight and influence into the believed innocence of 2 of its poorer citizens.

As for as I am aware this is unprecedented and not only can it bring serious consequences to international and trade relationships that are vital to Thailand it has lifted Myanmar to an elevated status on the international stage that Thaiiand can only envy.

Myanmar, its government and its people, we salute you, you are showing yourself to be awesome.

Please look at the lists above and tell me with what authority or experience you think that your version of events is right and the listed ones above are wrong?

You did not answer my questions .

Do you think that the father suddenly changed his mind to the reporters or do you think there is a slight chance that it was the reporter who got it wrong?

If you believe in justice you also have to have an open mind about this case. The son has been cleared , is there any chance that you might accept that he is innocent or have you already made up your mind?

Yes we are all entitled to an opinion in this case

And I can promise you that its not only Fab4 that think the headmans son is innocent.

Do you want me to say its only Fab4 and RTP and the Thai government that is on "our" side? I will not judge a person without facts unlike you. I am not defending Thais , but I hate to see someone being judged if they did not do it. No I do not believe he is a killer , that is my opinion .

The boy has been cleared, can you try to look for the real killers , because we all know its not B2 or do we?