12 dead in attack on Paris newspaper; France goes on alert

[Jingthing]

I would really prefer to be a liberal. But in the face of Islamic Jihad being a liberal makes you dead. It's time for Europe to wake up to that. It's probably TOO LATE though.

[Kitsune]

I'm not denying these morons use Islam as an excuse.

I'm denying they are a majority

I am sure, it comes as a relief for 1 victim in Toronto, 2 victims in Sydney and 17 victims in Paris, that they were killed by a minority!!

Nothing can compensate for the death of people.

But as Charb said : I rather die standing than live on my knees

[mania]

We are not going to negotiate our citizen rights in the name of fear and accept a patriot act like you did

I hope not & good on you folks if you hold that understanding.

[JockPieandBeans]

I'm not denying these morons use Islam as an excuse.

I'm denying they are a majority

I am sure, it comes as a relief for 1 victim in Toronto, 2 victims in Sydney and 17 victims in Paris, that they were killed by a minority!!

Nothing can compensate for the death of people.

But as Charb said : I rather die standing than live on my knees

Kitsune

I have highlighted the relevant phrase.

Unless the West starts to wake up pronto. That is exactly where a lot of people are going to find themselves.

On there knees begging for their lives.

[Kitsune]

Could you guys stop making this about religion. Muslims communities have condemned the attack

Every single one of these attacks that the words " Alluha Ahkbar " are shouted loud and proud are about religion.

Alluha Ahkbar is not Arabic for the " Pork Pies are on me ".

I'm not denying these morons use Islam as an excuse.

I'm denying they are a majority

Your words, not mine. dress it up anyway you like. It is all about religion.

it's what these idiots want you to believe and if you do they win.

The cop protecting Charb was Muslim, they killed him like a dog.

[Morch]

The irony of being on an Asian visa forum and listening to bigots going on about immigration - oh how I lol'd

Most of the posters residing in the region do not normally demand local governments to change local cultures in order to accommodate their lifestyle and religious beliefs. They do not receive handouts from local governments. Do not run on violent rampages. If anything one of the most generic responses on TVF is "if you don't like it here, leave".

When I worked in Afghanistan, I stayed in the compound of my employer which had diplomatic status and could run a bar. The Karzai government implemented a ban on alcohol sales except for registered diplomatic missions and they could only buy from a select few stores licensed to distribute alcohol. I happily drank a few beers with my my work colleagues at the end of the day before heading off to one of the few foreign run restaurants for steak or pizza together with more beer or wine.

I am not talking about immigrants here clearly and you may think it a stretch but the foreign workers at that time did not 'respect' local laws. Clearly there was no way to change those laws but we used our 'special' status to avoid these laws being applied to us. One of those special restaurants, a newly opened Russian place, was raided by the morality police led by a Karzai Advisor dressed Iranian style, suit no tie. They left us alone but hassled the Afghan patrons.

My anecdote has no equivalency with the notion of Islamic Law being imposed on western cultures (if that is indeed the case) but immigrants, temporary residents and workers in foreign lands may hold to their customs and traditions and lifestyles in contradiction to local customs or laws. I do think the original observation to which you responded has some merit.

Thanks for the anecdote.

I am sure that there are Westerners breaking host countries rules (or holding on to their traditions, however one wishes to call it), whether with officials turning a blind eye or not. Not all assimilate, not all choose to adopt the culture of their new found homes. Then again, it lacks the demanding, sometimes violent nature often associated with similar issues relating to Muslim immigrants in the West.

The objections raised are not to communities holding on to their traditions, but to the degree with which these traditions set them apart and hamper prospects for integration. The objections are raised in connection with the manner in which these appeals for special consideration are made, and their impact on society as a whole.

Simply try picking some issue at random and check how the same rhetoric and scope would work out if this was attempted by Western immigrants in either SE Asia or any dominantly Muslim country.

[Credo]

I would really prefer to be a liberal. But in the face of Islamic Jihad being a liberal makes you dead. It's time for Europe to wake up to that. It's probably TOO LATE though.

I don't think this is a liberal vs. conservative situation. I am pretty liberal and I believe in freedom of speech. People that don't respect the basic liberties should be dealt with under the law.

If they need to be deported, then deport them, if possible. If they need to be incarcerated, then jail them. If you can't jail them, then get them the mental health services that they need, preferably in a locked institution. Those inciting violence, preaching violence and encouraging violence should be held accountable, including charges for assisting in the commission of a crime.

[Mosha]

I'm not denying these morons use Islam as an excuse.

I'm denying they are a majority

It took 17 Arabs to make the "free" world scared of it's own shadow.

You are referring to 9/11

We are not Americans

We are not going to negotiate our citizen rights in the name of fear and accept a patriot act like you did

WE ARE NOT AFRAID

I'm not a Yank. I'm English,

[alanrchase]

I'm not denying these morons use Islam as an excuse.

I'm denying they are a majority

It took 17 Arabs to make the "free" world scared of it's own shadow.

You are referring to 9/11

We are not Americans

We are not going to negotiate our citizen rights in the name of fear and accept a patriot act like you did

WE ARE NOT AFRAID

I'm not a Yank. I'm English,

So you are English and scared?

[Kitsune]

I'm not denying these morons use Islam as an excuse.

I'm denying they are a majority

It took 17 Arabs to make the "free" world scared of it's own shadow.

You are referring to 9/11

We are not Americans

We are not going to negotiate our citizen rights in the name of fear and accept a patriot act like you did

WE ARE NOT AFRAID

I'm not a Yank. I'm English,

Good ...

so you should know in Europe we refuse to be governed by fear, because fearing people are weak and accept anything

[JockPieandBeans]

It took 17 Arabs to make the "free" world scared of it's own shadow.

You are referring to 9/11

We are not Americans

We are not going to negotiate our citizen rights in the name of fear and accept a patriot act like you did

WE ARE NOT AFRAID

I'm not a Yank. I'm English,

Good ...

so you should know in Europe we refuse to be governed by fear, because fearing people are weak and accept anything

Governed by incompetent fools more like.

[alanrchase]

It took 17 Arabs to make the "free" world scared of it's own shadow.

You are referring to 9/11
We are not Americans
We are not going to negotiate our citizen rights in the name of fear and accept a patriot act like you did

WE ARE NOT AFRAID

I'm not a Yank. I'm English,

Good ...
so you should know in Europe we refuse to be governed by fear, because fearing people are weak and accept anything

Governed by incompetent fools more like.

So tell me who you would like to govern you.

[dragonfly94]

Although extremist groups such as ISIS have supported this horrendous crime, these evil terrorist murderers do not represent the majority of Muslims and have been condemned by them.

Nobody claimed they did, however these murdering Muslim terrorists DO represent Islam, they ARE obeying the commands of the Koran and ARE emulating their prophet. Islam instructs that those who insult Allah and the prophet should be killed, it is not a religion of peace, there is no turning the other cheek and there is no commandment of do not kill. You are wrong as usual and just playing the look at all the fluffy nice moderates card, they are irrelevant. Also the majority of Muslims have not condemned the attack only a small minority, and I'm afraid the koranic instruction of taqiya means we cannot believe a word they say anyway.

Edited January 10, 2015 by dragonfly94

[JockPieandBeans]

So tell me who you would like to govern you.

Why ? What has that got to do with you ?

But right now, if I was in the UK. Anyone with a spine would probably suffice.

[dragonfly94]

Steely Dan; I offer for your consideration The Christian Terrorist Movement No One Wants To Talk About

Then there's Shocking scenes as 150 Jewish men go on rampage in Paris streets and clash with pro-Palestinian demonstrators

Deflection as usual, and rather desperate. I would have thought you could have come up with a couple of Christian terrorists by now who murdered 12 people over a depiction of Jesus they did not like, no luck with that then?

[alanrchase]

So tell me who you would like to govern you.

Why ? What has that got to do with you ?

But right now, if I was in the UK. Anyone with a spine would probably suffice.

Nothing to do with me. Poster complained about current government. Only asked who he would like. His/her choice.

[JockPieandBeans]

So tell me who you would like to govern you.

Why ? What has that got to do with you ?

But right now, if I was in the UK. Anyone with a spine would probably suffice.

Nothing to do with me. Poster complained about current government. Only asked who he would like. His/her choice.

And the poster ( me ) answered. Anyone with a spine would suffice. Names don not seem to be leaping out at me for some reason.

[Kitsune]

Good ...

so you should know in Europe we refuse to be governed by fear, because fearing people are weak and accept anything

Governed by incompetent fools more like.

fools, crooks, fraudsters, you name it, same as anywhere really

But we don't give up our civil rights

[dragonfly94]

The muzzy apologists are out

The usual accusation whenever the Islamaphobes are presented with facts they can't refute!

There have been a lot of accusations from Islamaphobes in this topic, as others; yet, as ever, the only evidence they can produce to back up their assertions, when they bother to produce any at all, comes from hate sites like Pamela Gellar's.

At least us 'muzzy apologists' produce evidence from reputable, independent sources to back up our assertions.

Well I don't remember you ever posting a fact that could not be refuted and today you used the daily mail as a source, but not so long ago said is was a paper for 'bigots' Here's another one of your smear words- islamaphobe, this means an irrational fear of Islam, but fear of Islam is very rational indeed.

If you were not an apologist you would condem the koran and the prophet which inpires worldwide terror, after all the jihadists don't get their inspiration from the daily mail do they!

[Morch]

Of course far right wing true haters of diversity in all its forms will be strengthened by this news.

But, how to process events like this can be especially challenging to the liberal and tolerant. Is intolerance of intolerance intolerance?

This is a question not only for Europe.

There is something Islamic in these terror events. Does it help to deny that obvious truth?

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2015/01/europe_s_confused_debate_about_islam_and_terrorism_europeans_are_both_too.html

Those who advocate for a more diverse Europe tend to have a lot of fun pointing out the sheer hypocrisy of liberal Islamophobia. But, all too often, these tolerant souls are guilty of an equally dangerous hypocrisy of their own. They rightly lament that there’s a lot of prejudice against Muslims, but they wrongly infer that we should refrain from criticizing any manifestation of Islam—and consequently deny that there is anything Islamic about the kind of terrorism that has just left a Paris magazine’s offices riddled with bullets.

You identify an important issue for liberals. I do think that some people have difficulty in separating genuine commentary or criticism from stereotyping. I am a huge fan of Bill Maher and I understand what he says about the Muslim thing but I wonder if he too is stereotyping. Or if not stereotyping, then I am not able to distinguish genuine commentary from bigotry. I look forward to his return on Friday evening US time as he will surely have more to say and I want to hear it and think about it.

There is a difference between statements like 'Islam cannot exist in or is incompatible with a Democracy' (which I have had thrown at me) and 'I do not support the ban on women drivers in Saudi Arabia'. Apart from the social, political and cultural contexts, I think the first is clearly an over generalisation and easily disproved (i.e. Indonesia etc) and to me represents bigotry. The 2nd statement is more specific and can be dissected and argued.

The other concern is general ignorance, including mine. I have not read the texts. I don't know what Sharia Law says. I think many people do not. Some people claim they do but clearly get the information from ideologically driven sources that presents that information accordingly. I have no access to information channels that convey the latest in Islamic thought, the latest Fatwas or interpretation of scripture. I am told by non Muslims that such interpretation is forbidden anyway. In fact almost all my information does from non Muslims. I would prefer to hear comments from a Muslim woman on the face covering issue than on some old white Christian male.

Many, most if not all these terror events have some connection to Islam. I wonder about the meaning of such connections. I wonder about the causation of the events and the role of other, political mainly but also possibly social and economic, issues. How to deal with this? Information. Respect. Engagement. The alternatives are to horrible to contemplate.

Allow me to wonder, again, why is it that calls for "Information. Respect. Engagement." are almost universally directed (whether by Westerners or Muslims) at the West?

It seems like an acknowledgment that Western culture is (relatively, at least) more capable of accommodating foreign notions, and it is somehow implied that this attribute makes it the responsibility of the West to make head-ways toward Muslims. Another thing implied is that these attempts are not being made, or that efforts made are not enough. Accepting immigrants and refugees would seem like an indication of good intentions to begin with. Allowances made to cultural, social and religious needs are way beyond anything on offer elsewhere in the world. What exactly is missing? Were other immigrant communities afforded better attitudes and conditions?

It is not that there are no instances of the "Information. Respect. Engagement." approach among Muslims, mostly to do with those living in Western countries. But can these be said to be a true representation of their communities? Would "Information. Respect. Engagement." be an accurate description of general Muslim attitudes?

[Morch]

*Oversized graphic edited out*

This was published in the Lebanese An Nahar.

It's a lovely idealistic thought but I wish the the Charlie Hebdo offices had more gun power that day. They had enough pencils.

If they had gun power they wouldn't be Charlie Hebdo, though.

May want to read a bit about the newspaper in which this was published, got its own fair share of standing up to these sort of things.

[manarak]

Could you guys stop making this about religion. Muslims communities have condemned the attack

Every single one of these attacks that the words " Alluha Ahkbar " are shouted loud and proud are about religion.

Alluha Ahkbar is not Arabic for the " Pork Pies are on me ".

I'm not denying these morons use Islam as an excuse.

I'm denying they are a majority

...

a very small minority are terrorists

a less small minority are violent militants

still another minority approve extremist violence without being violent themselves

a large minority are in favor of a state applying extremist religious Law

...

BUT: A MAJORITY do nothing to help stamping out the extremists !!

Edited January 10, 2015 by manarak

[Jay Sata]

These so called offensive cartoons need to be published across the world in defence of free speech.

[benalibina]

Good ...

so you should know in Europe we refuse to be governed by fear, because fearing people are weak and accept anything

Governed by incompetent fools more like.

fools, crooks, fraudsters, you name it, same as anywhere really

But we don't give up our civil rights

Yet you stay in a country where freedom of speech is ....well....somewhat, to put it politely, limited. By reading many of your comments on this topic.....i am baffled....you are just PC IMO.....good for you. Or you booked your ticket already ?

[benalibina]

Could you guys stop making this about religion. Muslims communities have condemned the attack

Every single one of these attacks that the words " Alluha Ahkbar " are shouted loud and proud are about religion.

Alluha Ahkbar is not Arabic for the " Pork Pies are on me ".

I'm not denying these morons use Islam as an excuse.

I'm denying they are a majority

...

a very small minority are terrorists

a less small minority are violent militants

still another minority approve extremist violence without being violent themselves

a large minority are in favor of a state applying extremists religious Law

...

BUT: A MAJORITY do nothing to help stamping out the extemists !!

Till now, yes but western societies will force the leaders of the many muslimgroups to speak out. When they do, it begs the question if it is sincere then or .....survival.....

[Thai at Heart]

The muzzy apologists are out

The usual accusation whenever the Islamaphobes are presented with facts they can't refute!

There have been a lot of accusations from Islamaphobes in this topic, as others; yet, as ever, the only evidence they can produce to back up their assertions, when they bother to produce any at all, comes from hate sites like Pamela Gellar's.

At least us 'muzzy apologists' produce evidence from reputable, independent sources to back up our assertions.

If Islamaphobia is a fear of Islam, then count me and many apparently middle of the road people on.

I am quite fearful for what modern Islam inside Europe may become and the effect it will have on Europe. Do I have a love of Islam?

I have Islamic friends but do I love them because they are Islamic? Nope.

[Thai at Heart]

7by7

Who is interested in moderate Muslims? It is the 25 per cent that hate everything and they need to be put down

Where do you get that 25% from?

Approximately 1.57 billion people worldwide are Muslim.

Are you seriously suggesting that 392.5 million of them are terrorist murderers or supporters of same?

It is important for people to realise that the vast majority of Muslims no more support terrorism than you or I.

This is because marginalising ordinary Muslims, demonising them, attacking them for the crimes committed by the terrorists will only radicalise more of them; especially among the young living in the West; as can be seen by those misguided youths from Europe traveling to join ISIS.

Do you really want to act as a recruiting sergeant for ISIS?

OK lets go with 1% of 1.57 Bn. That leaves one scary figure no? I say 1% as it was said bi the Indonesian government a ew years ago. Only were extremists.

Among these 1% extremists, only a few are moronic enough to act on it and unload Kalashnikov on people for portraying Mahomet as fed up with morons

Are you sure it is only a few? Only relativelt few may have the means and access to central Paris. That may well be the limiting factor

[Thorgal]

These so called offensive cartoons need to be published across the world in defence of free speech.

Do you need an offensive tool to defend your free speech ?

[MJP]

Anjem Choudary . . .

http://video.foxnews.com/v/3976707999001/radical-imam-anjem-choudary-on-charlie-hebdo-attack/?#sp=show-clips

[benalibina]

Anjem Choudary . . .

http://video.foxnews.com/v/3976707999001/radical-imam-anjem-choudary-on-charlie-hebdo-attack/?#sp=show-clips

This guy is shocking......the arrogance....only about....SELF....pity that the interviewer was biassed as.....he should have let the guy talk and talk......listening through the veneer....