Where is our international community headed in Chiang Mai?

[femi fan]

beetlejuice, all you've managed to do is throw your projections onto me and make me some kind of person you have in mind. Hardly conducive to any decent debating at all. Not to mention being totally off-topic.

I don't like to see the arts and positivity being attacked. I just don't know why you're talking about trailer trash and dross on my thread. It says more about you than the dross you speak of. I've never heard thai people speaking in this kind of derogatory manner in over 20 years.

You come across as a very selfish person, and that is your right. It's just ugly to read especially when this thread has got nothing whatsoever to do with who you are, nor about your wild and inaccurate projections onto me. It's actually quite objectionable to be characterised like this when it's completely wrong and unfounded.

And if you see western influences here as a contamination, what on earth are you? An easterner?

[femi fan]

Ummm. OK. The "international community" as I see it is doing just fine. I've been here since 2001. People come and go. Most people who leave do so in search of better job opportunities. It's all good.

You can't stop talking about yourself, how is this on-topic to my thread?

Could you get on-topic or leave it please. Thank you.

[onthedarkside]

Rude post removed. Misogyny will not be tolerated here on Thaivisa.

[Beetlejuice]

beetlejuice, all you've managed to do is throw your projections onto me and make me some kind of person you have in mind. Hardly conducive to any decent debating at all. Not to mention being totally off-topic.

I don't like to see the arts and positivity being attacked. I just don't know why you're talking about trailer trash and dross on my thread. It says more about you than the dross you speak of. I've never heard thai people speaking in this kind of derogatory manner in over 20 years.

You come across as a very selfish person, and that is your right. It's just ugly to read especially when this thread has got nothing whatsoever to do with who you are, nor about your wild and inaccurate projections onto me. It's actually quite objectionable to be characterised like this when it's completely wrong and unfounded.

And if you see western influences here as a contamination, what on earth are you? An easterner?

Farangs that wish to practice, teach or participate in the arts can do so in Chiang Mai, providing they obtain the appropriate permissions and permits according to their status and it``s completed officially and professionally, which means this has to be done on the terms of the authorities not at random by anyone that feels like it. The reasons being if that given a freehand there will be those that will abuse the system similar to those who run businesses and activities online without permits as a means of financially supporting themselves in Chiang Mai that are unable to meet the requirements of the Immigration Department.

Give foreigners the freedom to run any types of activities on a public or commercial basis and it will become abused on a grand scale, and why what you are suggesting cannot be viable.

And this is my polite way of explaining the situation.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Beetlejuice

[NancyL]

Yeah, I'm having problems deciding exactly what "problem" is that the OP is attempting the define.

It would seem to be his rather specific problem that someone who is under age 50 and married to a Thai person had problems in that young people can't make ends meet in new age professions like tai chi and yoga instructor.

I'm sorry to sound cynical but at some point don't people have to plan ahead for their lives?

Thailand isn't particularly interested in young people trying to find their way, unless they are well-financed.

[femi fan]

Yeah, I'm having problems deciding exactly what "problem" is that the OP is attempting the define.

It would seem to be his rather specific problem that someone who is under age 50 and married to a Thai person had problems in that young people can't make ends meet in new age professions like tai chi and yoga instructor.

I'm sorry to sound cynical but at some point don't people have to plan ahead for their lives?

Thailand isn't particularly interested in young people trying to find their way, unless they are well-financed.

Well, i think you still have problems deciding what i'm talking about! It's got nothing to do wtih age, planning for one's older age, marital status, making ends meet, salaries, types of professions, nor anything to do with any kind of person - old or young - trying to find their way in life. Nothing to do with any of those.

So you were spot on in your first line!!

How is yoga or tai chi 'new age'? They've been around for thousands of years. Hardly 'new'!

I'm not going to explain my OP, it's perfectly well written, and describes exactly what i wanted this thread to debate. But people are simply coming here with their own agendas and belief systems, not to mention character denigrations. I was looking for a debate, but this is looking increasingly like it's not going to happen.

Oh well, it was worth the try. I thought this forum could handle a debate, but looks like i was wrong.

Ps Nancy, surely if you have a problem in deciding what i am talking about in my OP the simplest solution to your problem would be to ask me to clarify??

[JulieM]

I already asked you to clarify and you replied that there was no need to do so.

[femi fan]

And this is my polite way of explaining the situation.

But absolutely nothing to do with the thread.

[JulieM]

I already asked you to clarify and you replied that there was no need to do so. You wrote:

"No Julie, i cannot restate my question, it's in the title of the thread. And if my post is unintelligible to you, then bad luck, go and find a thread where you can understand what folk are saying."

[femi fan]

I already asked you to clarify and you replied that there was no need to do so. You wrote:

"No Julie, i cannot restate my question, it's in the title of the thread. And if my post is unintelligible to you, then bad luck, go and find a thread where you can understand what folk are saying."

Why should i accommodate people who are being facetious? This is what you said:

"OP, can you re-state your question? I've re-read the OP and it meanders to the point of being unintelligible. I think you mean to say this, but correct me if I am wrong:"

My OP was unintelligible, yet you still decided you were able to interpret it. Doesn't add up does it julie? Made you look facetious to me.

Furthermore i know very well that my OP used intelligible English that is easy to understand, both in language and meaning.

If you want to debate, i'll be most happy, but that does not appear to be your intention at all.

[JulieM]

Well, Nancy and I are both wondering what it is you are asking. It appears that English is not your first language so perhaps it is a simple miscommunication. Anyway, best of luck with whatever it is your looking to debate.

[Thai at Heart]

Considering the types of dross that is arriving from the west into Thailand lately I am glad that farangs are not permitted to gain any real footholds in Chiang Mai.

The simple fact is that foreigners of little wealth are not needed or wanted in Thailand. It is still possible for those who can bring a reasonable amount of foreign investment into the country that actually benefits the Thais to do business here. For example the British bicycle guy that is expanding his business all over Thailand and so on.

The bikes are wanted from that company not him. He owns nothing here.

[femi fan]

Well, Nancy and I are both wondering what it is you are asking. It appears that English is not your first language so perhaps it is a simple miscommunication. Anyway, best of luck with whatever it is your looking to debate.

What makes you think English is not my first language when i'm using perfect grammar, perfectly made sentences, and understandable vocabulary, and i've put it all together in such a way that anybody can understand it, if they have read it??

You know well that my first language is English.

You truly do come across as a faceitious woman. Debate is the last thing on your mind. It's best you move on isn't it julie?

[northernjohn]

I'm hoping any debate this thread throws up will not be caught up with this kind of reply. Firstly the claims are just not true, secondly i really wanted a debate that is a wee bit more objective in terms of offering serious ideas rather than deep-rooted beliefs.

Such beliefs may be true to an extent, but only relating to the past. Times have changed. Laws pertaining to the ability of foreigners to work here, get married and work here, and so on, have not changed. This thread would like to debate these laws, and to throw up ideas for how a collective voice can be made and heard to try and bring about positive change for people who add to the flavour and positivity in this nation, in particular our town here in Chiang Mai.

Well you have some good points for some one moving in to Chiang Mai. But from what I have seen it is not holding many back from moving here. Times have changed but the reason I and others moved here has not changed. If these things were so harmful to the Chiang Mai community people would not be coming here.

It sounds to me like you want a western culture as opposed to what the Thai's have here. I can understand that if you have lived here a while and are wanting back what you left. An entire change of life style is not what most people want. It is fine for a period of time but not as a permanent situation. Why do you propose that the laws change to make it easier for people to live here? I have lived here about 4 years and been visiting often since 2005 and have no trouble with them. If you think we have it bad here ask a Brit or an Ozzie on a pension what they have to go through just to get their pension or shall we say a part of it?

Over all the only thing I can see to improve Chiang Mai and make it more attractive is to not have so many immigrants there by unblocking the roads. Look at the damage they have done and you want them to attract more people. I am speaking of Shopping Malls People hanging on by their finger nails and a lot not making it. I hear there is a new one opening some place soon. That is defiantly not the Chiang Mai I wish to see. Promote the native markets.

Yes the 90day is next door to useless. I seriously doubt they could locate where you live by using them. Even if they could so what. They have here in Chiang Mai made a move to ease that by asking every one to mail there's in.

It would be nice to see a reliable bus service but the facts are the infrastructure would not be able to handle one. Also it would never be able to take people to the places the Tuck tucks and Songthaew's can and do. As for owning property and business I see them trying to protect the Thai way of life. There are other countries much more harder to do business in. I realize that the average westerner work man will do more in a day than a Thai and that is a cultural thing that they are in my opinion rightfully trying to protect. There culture is slowly being eroded by the westerners and that is a shame.

The best description I have heard of the differences is the westerner lives to work and the Thai works to live. That of course has lots of exceptions but on the over all is true.

One thing they could do and have talked about is institute a medical plan that could cover foreigners.

I do presume you are not talking about the price gouging in the tourist section. That is another story. Living here year round we are not bothered by that we know better.

[northernjohn]

Considering the types of dross that is arriving from the west into Thailand lately I am glad that farangs are not permitted to gain any real footholds in Chiang Mai.

The simple fact is that foreigners of little wealth are not needed or wanted in Thailand. It is still possible for those who can bring a reasonable amount of foreign investment into the country that actually benefits the Thais to do business here. For example the British bicycle guy that is expanding his business all over Thailand and so on.

So you are saying that because I am not a wealthy man and bring no money in to the country to invest you think I don't belong here? Are you a trust fund baby or married in to money?

I bring in and spend far more than is required of me (65,000 baht a month) not sure if a man of your stature knew that. I feel it is far from making me "dross"

I believe that fewer people like you with your better than others attitude would be an added attraction to Chiang Mai.

[daoyai]

i often disagree with femi fan but on this thread I understand exactly what he is getting at yes, free spirits, creatives and nonconformists are feeling squeezed, persecuted and under attack in a city that has been seen as a safe haven, TVf is full of dullard conformist materialists, as this thread has proven.

[northernjohn]

Op, you have read and contributed to Thaivisa for a long time so I am surprised you expected to get intelligent, useful, non-inflammatory replies. It is surely not the nature of the beast.

International community? - there isnt one. What do you mean? All non -thai (japanese/korean/chinese?) Farang only?

Surely CM just has a large cross-section of very varied Non Thai residents and tourists, with many different interests. And, as elsewhere, only a minority are interested in the art, yoga, spirituality to which you refer.

I know there are road bumps, but surely in reality thai people and authorities are fairly tolerant of incomers and their strange non-thai ideas. Immigrants in most countries are not particularly welcome and neither are their attempts to change the nature of the country where they have chosen to relocate. The weekly anti-immigrant marches in Germany are an example. The recent swiss referendum that voted to close the door to immigrants against the advice of their government is another example.

And the diificulties for a thai national to get a schengen and/or uk visa even to visit as a tourist put the boot firmly on the other foot.

There is so much thai bashing on here, and criticism of thainess, I am not sure why this forum would ever be taken seriously as an agent of change.

Contrary to what many seem to believe, we are unimportant to the thai economy and we are tolerated, but why would they roll out the red carpet?

You criticise the 90 day reporting but it is no big deal. many make a virtue of DIY reporting but t is easy and cheap to use an agent to take away any hassle.

Many farang countries would be better off with a similar reporting system for immigrants so they had some chance of tracking overstayers, and others acting illegally.

You are right though- there is no conduit for lobbying for change- I suppose you could try your consulate but I think you know their response.

Seems to me we can only be happy anywhere if we can accept their way of life, their rules, their systems etc etc and not expect them to bend to our will-however sensible it seems to us.

On a bigger scale, the UK wants the EU to change to accommodate UK-it isnt going to happen. UK has to accept what it cant change, or leave.

Same for us.

+1

[JulieM]

i often disagree with femi fan but on this thread I understand exactly what he is getting at yes, free spirits, creatives and nonconformists are feeling squeezed, persecuted and under attack in a city that has been seen as a safe haven, TVf is full of dullard conformist materialists, as this thread has proven.

OK. I'll bite. In what way are these people feeling squeezed, persecuted and under attack?

[northernjohn]

"Op, you have read and contributed to Thaivisa for a long time so I am surprised you expected to get intelligent, useful, non-inflammatory replies. It is surely not the nature of the beast."

I tried to leave my cynicism behind when i left my home country. Thailand and Thai people were very kind to me in that it allowed me to do this. I do agree with the message you touch upon in relation to much of thaivisa , however i like to think that debate is possible!

JulieM: you along with just about everyone so far doesn't seem to have read my post properly. I'm not talking about staying here, i'm talking about working here, and i'm talking about a community, and how international people able to stay here legally are unable to contribute to the wellbeing of the community due to archaic work permit and marriage laws.

I am not talking about me and my life (i have lived in thailand legally and worked here legally for over 20 years). I'm personally fine, but i do look beyond my own nose towards the wellbeing of the collective, ie the community.

beau thai and cloudhopper:

You clearly both have a different understanding of the word 'community' than i do. It is a collection of people who work towards a common purpose. If you can't see one here, then that's fine, but i can and do see one here. A thriving one, but it's being tested by the enforcement of archaic laws. Which is the main thing i was hoping for a debate on.

Thus far i've been unlucky. Like i said above, i hope the quality improves at some point.

I see where you are coming from. You do have a point. How ever if the conditions are as bad as you lay them out to be why would any one come here to make their living. If they are not capable of doing the due diligent work required to come here and start all over again maybe they should not come here.

It would help your case a little bit if you could site the necessity of having them here other than teaching English. I threw that in because I have met English teachers I have a hard time understanding. I know Thais who are more understandable than them.

Perhaps you are making these requirements in to a bigger problem than they are. Also remember we are not all the same. The 90 day report I will in the future mail in. In the past I have always found it to be a part of the day when I did many different things for an over all pleasant day.

Do you also feel that because times have changed prices have gone up and common sense tells us you should require proof of more income?

At any rate good luck with the project. Never can tell some thing might come out of it. I just don't see the need for it. But that is my opinion.

[northernjohn]

beetlejuice, all you've managed to do is throw your projections onto me and make me some kind of person you have in mind. Hardly conducive to any decent debating at all. Not to mention being totally off-topic.

I don't like to see the arts and positivity being attacked. I just don't know why you're talking about trailer trash and dross on my thread. It says more about you than the dross you speak of. I've never heard thai people speaking in this kind of derogatory manner in over 20 years.

You come across as a very selfish person, and that is your right. It's just ugly to read especially when this thread has got nothing whatsoever to do with who you are, nor about your wild and inaccurate projections onto me. It's actually quite objectionable to be characterised like this when it's completely wrong and unfounded.

And if you see western influences here as a contamination, what on earth are you? An easterner?

Farangs that wish to practice, teach or participate in the arts can do so in Chiang Mai, providing they obtain the appropriate permissions and permits according to their status and it``s completed officially and professionally, which means this has to be done on the terms of the authorities not at random by anyone that feels like it. The reasons being if that given a freehand there will be those that will abuse the system similar to those who run businesses and activities online without permits as a means of financially supporting themselves in Chiang Mai that are unable to meet the requirements of the Immigration Department.

Give foreigners the freedom to run any types of activities on a public or commercial basis and it will become abused on a grand scale, and why what you are suggesting cannot be viable.

And this is my polite way of explaining the situation.

Well I see you are all over the place. One post they have to be wealthy another one just conform to the minimum requirements. What ever they are.

How ever I believe you have hit the jackpot here.

"Give foreigners the freedom to run any types of activities on a public or commercial basis and it will become abused on a grand scale, and why what you are suggesting cannot be viable."

That was a grand slam home run statement. It would not take them long. In fact I believe there are people here today who would have one up and running in two days.

[JulieM]

OP, here is an example of why I thought english was not your first language. You wrote (and this is only one example of many:)

"In recent times weve heard about non-Thais playing live music being ousted from doing so. Promoting the arts and giving entertainment not possible without a work permit. Work permit not possible. Play the music and keep people happy in their free time illegally, or dont do it."

Edited January 24, 2015 by JulieM

[Beetlejuice]

beetlejuice, all you've managed to do is throw your projections onto me and make me some kind of person you have in mind. Hardly conducive to any decent debating at all. Not to mention being totally off-topic.

I don't like to see the arts and positivity being attacked. I just don't know why you're talking about trailer trash and dross on my thread. It says more about you than the dross you speak of. I've never heard thai people speaking in this kind of derogatory manner in over 20 years.

You come across as a very selfish person, and that is your right. It's just ugly to read especially when this thread has got nothing whatsoever to do with who you are, nor about your wild and inaccurate projections onto me. It's actually quite objectionable to be characterised like this when it's completely wrong and unfounded.

And if you see western influences here as a contamination, what on earth are you? An easterner?

Farangs that wish to practice, teach or participate in the arts can do so in Chiang Mai, providing they obtain the appropriate permissions and permits according to their status and it``s completed officially and professionally, which means this has to be done on the terms of the authorities not at random by anyone that feels like it. The reasons being if that given a freehand there will be those that will abuse the system similar to those who run businesses and activities online without permits as a means of financially supporting themselves in Chiang Mai that are unable to meet the requirements of the Immigration Department.

Give foreigners the freedom to run any types of activities on a public or commercial basis and it will become abused on a grand scale, and why what you are suggesting cannot be viable.

And this is my polite way of explaining the situation.

Well I see you are all over the place. One post they have to be wealthy another one just conform to the minimum requirements. What ever they are.

How ever I believe you have hit the jackpot here.

"Give foreigners the freedom to run any types of activities on a public or commercial basis and it will become abused on a grand scale, and why what you are suggesting cannot be viable."

That was a grand slam home run statement. It would not take them long. In fact I believe there are people here today who would have one up and running in two days.

Yes, I am talking about those who are not able to hack it here under the imposed rules and requirements of the Immigration Departments and unlike according to your situation need to find means of financially supporting themselves for long stay in the country. Those of little wealth who again unlike you do not have anywhere close to a secure income of 65000 baht per month, that as I have said many times in the past here on Thai visa has the affect of placing us under even more scrutiny by the authorities and tightening the rules up for all of us.

I personally would not want to see Chiang Mai become flooded by these types of people, I actually completely agree with the rules now applied by Immigration that tries to prevent undesirables and hustlers gaining easy access and an easy means of remaining in the Kingdom completely unchecked.

[Bill97]

Mapguy, where are you in our time of need? Please come and sort out this absurd thread for us. People are getting stressed, loosing sleep and resorting to increased consumption of alcohol and drugs. Have some compassion, please join in and save us

[seedy]

Just re-read the OP. Seems that he/she is wishing that the working/volunteering system in Thailand would change to make it easier to perform the charitable works described and to allow those married to Thai citizens to work to support their family.

This will not happen unless Thai people want it for themselves.

Look at the flag flying on the pole - their house / their rules.

In the country of my birth much has been sold off to foreign investment / property holdings / businesses. Very easy for immigrants to purchase land - just bring money.

In many ways I think the Thai people are right in restricting foreign ownership - especially of property. Rent / lease - yes. Buy - no.

It is not that difficult to start a business here, or work for one if you want to. The Thai government is protecting their own people first - which is at it should be.

Globalization is making very sweeping changes everywhere, many not for the better. Let us hope that my adopted country can hold on.

[TheFishman1]

There are plenty of Country's that make retirement visa real simple including bring in a car and household goods duty free , house and land in your own name. This is Thailand if you don't like it leave it.

[DaamNaam]

OP, here is an example of why I thought english was not your first language. You wrote (and this is only one example of many:)

"In recent times weve heard about non-Thais playing live music being ousted from doing so. Promoting the arts and giving entertainment not possible without a work permit. Work permit not possible. Play the music and keep people happy in their free time illegally, or dont do it."

Sounds like "google translate".

[arunsakda]

i often disagree with femi fan but on this thread I understand exactly what he is getting at yes, free spirits, creatives and nonconformists are feeling squeezed, persecuted and under attack in a city that has been seen as a safe haven, TVf is full of dullard conformist materialists, as this thread has proven.

OK. I'll bite. In what way are these people feeling squeezed, persecuted and under attack?

Every itinerant farang Yoga instructor, artist, kale pancake griller and self-help guru who wants to come and go as he pleases not paying income tax anywhere.

Edited January 25, 2015 by arunsakda

[JingerBen]

OP, here is an example of why I thought english was not your first language. You wrote (and this is only one example of many:)

"In recent times weve heard about non-Thais playing live music being ousted from doing so. Promoting the arts and giving entertainment not possible without a work permit. Work permit not possible. Play the music and keep people happy in their free time illegally, or dont do it."

Sounds like "google translate".

Yes, it does sound like "google translate", but femi fan is usually an intelligent, literate poster.

We all have have our off-moments.

[hml367]

The special interest groups incessantly try to deconstruct Western societies in order to reshape them according to their own belief systems. You let them get a foot in the door here, then they will attempt to change Thai society; consequently, educated Thais impose regulations that protect their country from these radicals.

Judging from many posts on ThaiVisa, there are "groups" and many individuals that want to change Chiang Mai for their own definition of "the better" already. Many will argue and quibble "incessantly" trying to prove why their point of view is right and better for everyone.

I think Gonzo (and very few others) had it correct when they stated in Chiang Mai they were surrounded by experts in so many fields.

Edited January 25, 2015 by hml367

[OmarZaidMD]

I'm hoping any debate this thread throws up will not be caught up with this kind of reply. Firstly the claims are just not true, secondly i really wanted a debate that is a wee bit more objective in terms of offering serious ideas rather than deep-rooted beliefs.

Such beliefs may be true to an extent, but only relating to the past. Times have changed. Laws pertaining to the ability of foreigners to work here, get married and work here, and so on, have not changed. This thread would like to debate these laws, and to throw up ideas for how a collective voice can be made and heard to try and bring about positive change for people who add to the flavour and positivity in this nation, in particular our town here in Chiang Mai.

"Collective Vote" eh? Patience is needed. It's coming sure enough, just look at the ubiquity of red flags suddenly appearing all over the nation. The Regional tide is turning 'Red' and the collectivist ideation is incarnating, with or without people realizing it or even caring. The traditional patronage system is, in fact, become 'red' ... so be patient, your day in a red sunset is on the way, rules will be the same, just slightly off the color you imagine.