Power surges

[Crossy]

You can never have too many of the beasties, the chances are that with a front-end device taking the sting out of any surges the little blue chaps will last forever. MOVs do wear out but the rate of wear is determined by the size of the surges they are asked to clamp.

Certainly wiring 3 of the little ones to a 3-pin plug would provide protection, but keep the cable as short and fat as possible.

With care you could get them behind the outlets (power off of course, sleeve the leads) where they can protect your kit whilst being invisible.

Or you could put them in a small box in-line with the power cable, a sort of power-bulge on the lead, I'll knock up a sample when I get a minute.

[PattayaClub]

As I mentioned, I have a Schneider whole house 15kA surge protector plugged into the panel. I intend to follow your diagram for do-it-yourself point-of-use 8kA surge protectors at each appliance (have already ordered the little blue beasties). But I just finished a house and have a lot of new very expensive appliances and I am NOT comfortable with this level of protection. Between all vulnerable air conditioners and appliances, we may be talking 500,000 baht and it could all go with a BANG.

I understand that I cannot protect against a near direct lightening strike with surge suppressors alone. But with enough protection, I can protect against a farther away strike or a tree falling over a line. As it is, if a nearby tree falls over the line, I could fry all my surge protection and the boards of every appliance.

I would like to add Type 1 surge protection with a rating of at least 80-100 kA. I understand Type 1 goes on the PEA side of the meter, but most of them can also be installed as type 2 (with the same protection on the service side of the meter. I have a meter on a pole. The 50mm2 line goes from the meter to a large weatherproof cutout box. It then goes some 50-70 meters underground and under the house, surfacing at the CB panel (where the Schneider surge suppressor is plugged on). I have single phase only (three phase not available where I live, according to PEA -- too late anyway). I would like to install this protection at the cutout box by the meter. This would be my frontline protection. A good idea so far??

The problem is, I have made myself crazy scouring the Internet trying to find a single phase device with protection of at least 80-100kA for 220-240VAC. And, of course, a L-N, L-E, N-E configuration is preferred (not all of them have this).

Do you have a source? I am willing to order it from anywhere in the world, so long as it is a high quality reliable brand. I don't want to gamble with some piece of junk from Aliexpress unless somebody can vouch for the vendor. I saw "LeeYee" above; never heard of it. Any ideas?

Edited June 26, 2015 by PattayaClub

[Forkinhades]

Try here http://www.apc.com/products/family/?id=175

[PattayaClub]

Try here http://www.apc.com/products/family/?id=175

Thanks, but I am still up the same tree. I looked at all of those and all were three phase. APC is now owned by Schneider (like everything else it seems). I previously sent a request to Schneider but it has gone unanswered. I just sent additional requests to APC Thailand and APC UK:

Dear APC,

I am trying to source an 80-100 kA surge suppressor for a 220VAC single phase electrical system. That is, three wires, Line, Neutral and Earth. Can you assist me?

I can import to Thailand from ANYWHERE in the world, so I am not looking specifically “available in Thailand” products.

Thanks in advance.

I'll stand by. So far, I've been ignored.

[Crossy]

Nothing to stop you using a 3-phase unit on single-phase, you end up with two spare cartridges too

There are a number of 'known manufacturer' units on Ebay, but the prices are scary compared with the Chinese units.

Of course you never know if these things are going to work, or for that matter if they have worked.

[carlyai]

Try here http://www.apc.com/products/family/?id=175

Thanks, but I am still up the same tree. I looked at all of those and all were three phase. APC is now owned by Schneider (like everything else it seems). I previously sent a request to Schneider but it has gone unanswered. I just sent additional requests to APC Thailand and APC UK:

Dear APC,

I am trying to source an 80-100 kA surge suppressor for a 220VAC single phase electrical system. That is, three wires, Line, Neutral and Earth. Can you assist me?

I can import to Thailand from ANYWHERE in the world, so I am not looking specifically available in Thailand products.

Thanks in advance.

I'll stand by. So far, I've been ignored.

[carlyai]

I bought 3 single phase din movs with high specs and price from muan Thai outlet in roiet.

I had to order them and it took a couple of weeks.

Muan Thai outlet is the Thai name but it could be bangkok outlet or Thailand outlet and I would presume they have stores in other cities.

I ordered the Schindler (sorry if spelt wrong) and you need to go to the store and get the catalogue and physically show them the unit in the catalogue. Easy after that.

Its like trying to get the single prong slide over for the 2 pronged plugs to make them a 3 pronged plug.

No one has a clue without the catalogue.

Sorry I can't send the info from my moves but in patts at moment and not at house in isaan.

If you still have no luck you can contact muan Thai outlet in roiet and ask them about the moves this farang bought, they will probably remember and will have the order info as I'm the only person who orders this type of stuff.

Failing that send me a note and I'll give you my name to check the order with them.

Edited June 29, 2015 by carlyai

[IMHO]

I bought 3 single phase din movs with high specs and price from muan Thai outlet in roiet.

I had to order them and it took a couple of weeks.

Muan Thai outlet is the Thai name but it could be bangkok outlet or Thailand outlet and I would presume they have stores in other cities.

I ordered the Schindler (sorry if spelt wrong) and you need to go to the store and get the catalogue and physically show them the unit in the catalogue. Easy after that.

Its like trying to get the single prong slide over for the 2 pronged plugs to make them a 3 pronged plug.

No one has a clue without the catalogue.

Sorry I can't send the info from my moves but in patts at moment and not at house in isaan.

If you still have no luck you can contact muan Thai outlet in roiet and ask them about the moves this farang bought, they will probably remember and will have the order info as I'm the only person who orders this type of stuff.

Failing that send me a note and I'll give you my name to check the order with them.

Muang Thai Outlet only have that one location is Roi Et, but they deliver all over the country - at least the pro audio side of their huge warehouse do...

They can be found online by searching for: molsound

Edited June 29, 2015 by IMHO

[Naam]

slightly off topic but "power surge". for the third time the protective gadgets of my two phone (internet) lines were fried by a surge. are there no thingies available which just trip like a circuit breaker which can be simply "flipped on" again?

tomorrow i am getting my fibre optic connection. line has been layed already and only a "box" as well as a modem/router has to be installed. can a fibre optic line respectively the end gadgets be damaged by an electric surge?

[IMHO]

slightly off topic but "power surge". for the third time the protective gadgets of my two phone (internet) lines were fried by a surge. are there no thingies available which just trip like a circuit breaker which can be simply "flipped on" again?

tomorrow i am getting my fibre optic connection. line has been layed already and only a "box" as well as a modem/router has to be installed. can a fibre optic line respectively the end gadgets be damaged by an electric surge?

APC SurgeArrest products can be "reset" in some surge scenarios, and APC will replace them for free otherwise.

[Crossy]

tomorrow i am getting my fibre optic connection. line has been layed already and only a "box" as well as a modem/router has to be installed. can a fibre optic line respectively the end gadgets be damaged by an electric surge?

Fibre doesn't conduct electricity, so that's the end of any line borne surges getting in that way

[RichCor]

slightly off topic but "power surge". for the third time the protective gadgets of my two phone (internet) lines were fried by a surge. are there no thingies available which just trip like a circuit breaker which can be simply "flipped on" again?

tomorrow i am getting my fibre optic connection. line has been layed already and only a "box" as well as a modem/router has to be installed. can a fibre optic line respectively the end gadgets be damaged by an electric surge?

"Electronics" are always difficult to guarantee protection.

Not only can they be damaged or otherwise seriously affected by Mains Supply abnormalities, many are also susceptible from induced current incursion riding in on other wires, EMF field pulses, or other out-of-the-norm occurrences that forced the unit to experience events outside its design specs.

I would suggest you look at the "Clamping Voltage" of the protection devices you employ. The ones placed in the CU breaker box may be designed for higher voltages so won't block/redirect a lower voltage surge. Additional protection devices may need to be deployed.

(See Crossy's 'blue MOV's everywhere' occasional posts):

Surge protector, or similar device - advice for a moron on all things electrical.

Started by A. BOOZER, 2015-02-12 08:54

The usual recommendation is a multi-tiered approach:-

• A large front-end surge arrestor at the supply source.
• A surge arrestor in the distribution board.
• Smaller (usually plug-in) arrestors at sensitive equipment.

We have a beefy arrestor in our distribution board (but nothing at the supply source as yet). Something like this:- http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dehn-Dehnguard-T275-Single-Pole-Surge-Arrester-A900-650-275V-20A-/150959806024?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2325e7d648 this should take the edge off any major surges that arrive from the supply network. This is the only item I couldn't locate in Thailand, but that is going back some years, I'm sure you can get here now.

I also bought a load of these http://www.belkin.com/th/IWCatProductPage.process?Product_Id=551466 not cheap but Belkin is well regarded.

The PC etc. is on one of these http://www.belkin.com/th/IWCatProductPage.process?Product_Id=509298

Both Belkin devices came from IT City.

For our OP. If the gate controller is on a long cable (ours is nearly 60m) you need to put something at the controller end. If there's space you could install a socket and use one of the plug-in units, or if not use 3 naked MOVs (L-N, L-E and N-E). Something like the S20K275 on this page http://www.mynpe.com/mynpe/home1.php?search=varistor&Group=&Brand=&page=1&pagesize=7&lowerPrice=0&upperPrice=1000000 sleeve the wires of course.

I would also add a local ground rod right at the controller to help divert any nasties that tend to pull the ground wire up away from zero.

[Naam]

slightly off topic but "power surge". for the third time the protective gadgets of my two phone (internet) lines were fried by a surge. are there no thingies available which just trip like a circuit breaker which can be simply "flipped on" again?

tomorrow i am getting my fibre optic connection. line has been layed already and only a "box" as well as a modem/router has to be installed. can a fibre optic line respectively the end gadgets be damaged by an electric surge?

APC SurgeArrest products can be "reset" in some surge scenarios, and APC will replace them for free otherwise.

does APC have surge arrestors specifically for phone lines?

[Naam]

tomorrow i am getting my fibre optic connection. line has been layed already and only a "box" as well as a modem/router has to be installed. can a fibre optic line respectively the end gadgets be damaged by an electric surge?

Fibre doesn't conduct electricity, so that's the end of any line borne surges getting in that way

thanks Crossy but may i reming you that this is Thailand? i need my two conventional internet connections and the fibre optic connection. it happened more than once that both ISPs failed at the same time and i had to resort to use a nerve wrecking dongle.

[Naam]

RichCor

I would suggest you look at the "Clamping Voltage" of the protection devices you employ. The ones placed in the CU breaker box may be designed for higher voltages so won't block/redirect a lower voltage surge. Additional protection devices may need to be deployed.

please suggest which ones. i have everything protected (even with automatic reset) against surges except my phone lines.

[Crossy]

does APC have surge arrestors specifically for phone lines?

Almost certainly, but you should be able to get non-APC phone line arrestors too.

Something like this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Telephone-surge-protector-TSP-10-in-line-arrestor-installation-LED-indicator-/251355132098?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a85eef0c2

Almost all my UPS's and many surge arresting power strips have phone line arrestors built in.

I've got a number of Ethernet units on long cable runs too, but cheap ones tend to slug the gigabit down to 100mbps

[PattayaClub]

I bought 3 single phase din movs with high specs and price from muan Thai outlet in roiet.

I had to order them and it took a couple of weeks.

Muan Thai outlet is the Thai name but it could be bangkok outlet or Thailand outlet and I would presume they have stores in other cities.

I ordered the Schindler (sorry if spelt wrong) and you need to go to the store and get the catalogue and physically show them the unit in the catalogue. Easy after that.

Its like trying to get the single prong slide over for the 2 pronged plugs to make them a 3 pronged plug.

No one has a clue without the catalogue.

Sorry I can't send the info from my moves but in patts at moment and not at house in isaan.

If you still have no luck you can contact muan Thai outlet in roiet and ask them about the moves this farang bought, they will probably remember and will have the order info as I'm the only person who orders this type of stuff.

Failing that send me a note and I'll give you my name to check the order with them.

Those Schneider din mounted MOVs are only 15kA. I have one. Model QO SPD225.

[PattayaClub]

slightly off topic but "power surge". for the third time the protective gadgets of my two phone (internet) lines were fried by a surge. are there no thingies available which just trip like a circuit breaker which can be simply "flipped on" again?

tomorrow i am getting my fibre optic connection. line has been layed already and only a "box" as well as a modem/router has to be installed. can a fibre optic line respectively the end gadgets be damaged by an electric surge?

We just got connected up to 3BB fiber optic a few weeks ago. Interestingly, the fiber optic stopped at the pole at the street and what looks like copper phone wire carries the signal from the pole to the house (definitely copper and very small at that). So there is still a vulnerability, although a "short one."

[Crossy]

Our TOT fibre goes right to my desk

But yes, that copper could pick up nasties

[IMHO]

slightly off topic but "power surge". for the third time the protective gadgets of my two phone (internet) lines were fried by a surge. are there no thingies available which just trip like a circuit breaker which can be simply "flipped on" again?

tomorrow i am getting my fibre optic connection. line has been layed already and only a "box" as well as a modem/router has to be installed. can a fibre optic line respectively the end gadgets be damaged by an electric surge?

APC SurgeArrest products can be "reset" in some surge scenarios, and APC will replace them for free otherwise.

does APC have surge arrestors specifically for phone lines?

Yep: http://www.schneider-electric.com/products/th/en/7900-surge-protection-and-power-conditioning/7940-surge-protection-devices/61873-protectnet/

That's for the copper type phone lines though - fibre doesn't need it.

Edited June 30, 2015 by IMHO

[Naam]

Yep: http://www.schneider-electric.com/products/th/en/7900-surge-protection-and-power-conditioning/7940-surge-protection-devices/61873-protectnet/

That's for the copper type phone lines though - fibre doesn't need it.

that's exactly what i got from Germany and installed two some months ago although they are not meant for phone line but for network protection. then we cut the phone lines where they enter the house and fitted RJ45 plugs. so far so good, at least that's what i thought.

today i checked and found that neither thingy is connected. questioning my Thai "assistant/handyman/driver/jack of all trades" he confessed "i took out the burned devices we bought in Thailand but then i forgot to install the German ones because Madame wanted to go shopping."

it took a few minutes to plug in the "Schneiders"

Edited June 30, 2015 by Naam

[Naam]

Our TOT fibre goes right to my desk

mine too. it was laid already two years ago.

[RichCor]

Our TOT fibre goes right to my desk

mine too. it was laid already two years ago.

They laid fiber optic right up to your desk?

Wow, you gent's must be very important people.

[Naam]

Our TOT fibre goes right to my desk

mine too. it was laid already two years ago.

They laid fiber optic right up to your desk?

Wow, you gent's must be very important people.

we are just ordinary people. important is the portrait of His Majesty the King printed on some paper. router is not yet installed because of some problem ~900 meters from my home.

[IMHO]

That rat's nest is in your house??!?!?

[RichCor]

He requires multiple redundancy.

Well, until they make him redundant.

[Naam]

That rat's nest is in your house??!?!?

yes, but you have only seen less than half of it

in a week from today everything will be properly and in a presentable way arranged. the cables are a necessity because i hate wifi and have most of my rooms hard-wired.

by the way, knowing Thailand since more than four decades and living in Thailand for slightly more than a decade has taught me that there is hardly anything redundant in this country. personally i consider three ISPs absolutely mandatory. other people's milege may vary.

what may be redundant now is the snail speed G3 dongle which i might (perhaps) retire.

worthwhile to mention is that neither my dogs nor i own a smart-phone as opposed to the various smart-phones used by five other persons in my home. i am very happy using three old Motorola "Razrs" and keep two more in their original packing.

semi smart are three cordless phones connected to a dedicated modem router which i use exclusively for international calls.

[bankruatsteve]

That rat's nest is in your house??!?!?

yes, but you have only seen less than half of it

in a week from today everything will be properly and in a presentable way arranged. the cables are a necessity because i hate wifi and have most of my rooms hard-wired.

by the way, knowing Thailand since more than four decades and living in Thailand for slightly more than a decade has taught me that there is hardly anything redundant in this country. personally i consider three ISPs absolutely mandatory. other people's milege may vary.

what may be redundant now is the snail speed G3 dongle which i might (perhaps) retire.

worthwhile to mention is that neither my dogs nor i own a smart-phone as opposed to the various smart-phones used by five other persons in my home. i am very happy using three old Motorola "Razrs" and keep two more in their original packing.

semi smart are three cordless phones connected to a dedicated modem router which i use exclusively for international calls.

As I'm sure you know, your fiber will only be as fast as what it is connected to. If you don't already, you really should hook up the fiber to a wireless router and make most folks who live there happy. I don't have a smart phone either, but wifi is great - esp. with laptop - you can take it anywhere: bed, bathroom, whatever.

BTW: that's fibER

[Naam]

As I'm sure you know, your fiber will only be as fast as what it is connected to. If you don't already, you really should hook up the fiber to a wireless router and make most folks who live there happy. I don't have a smart phone either, but wifi is great - esp. with laptop - you can take it anywhere: bed, bathroom, whatever.

BTW: that's fibER

Dear Steve,

i am neither American nor do i speak or spell "American". partly because my English teachers were mostly Brits and last not least because my semi-British wife is insisting since 36 years that if we communicate in English instead of using German or French (the latter is my first language) it should be the British version.

please note that my neighbours are not neighbors, i grant favours not favors and my coffee or sometimes tea is served in cups with saucers not in mugs inspite of the fact that i lived 15 years in the U. S. of A. these are just a few of many reasons why the fibre optic connection to my home is not "fiber". and when i hear "who to blame" instead of "whom to blame" cold shivers are running down my back.

Fiber vs. fibre

There is no difference in meaning between fiber and fibre.

Fiber is the preferred spelling in American English, and fibre is preferred in all the other main varieties of English.

Both spellings are many centuries old, and neither spelling was clearly prevalent on either side of the Atlantic until the second half of the 18th century. This was a period in which many British educators began to consider it proper for English words of French and Latin origin to take their more French and Latin forms rather than their more Anglicized forms. Fibre is the French spelling of the word from which the English word is derived, so it was promoted as the standard spelling despite its being unphonetic. The belief that French and Latin should hold sway over English never had much traction in the post-independence United States, and while Americans also favored the French spelling through the 19th century, the more phonetic fiber steadily gained ground through that century until becoming the preferred form around 1910.

[Naam]

wifi is great - esp. with laptop - you can take it anywhere: bed, bathroom, whatever.

you are quite right. i can't think of anything more exciting than taking a dump with a laptop on my knees surfing Thaivisa