Anyone know anything about installing a standby home generator?

[Bcgardener]

If you want to get a decent manual transfer switch then PMK Corporation in Bangkok is the distributor for Krauss-Naimer. Most electrical supply places will be able to sell you a Chinese copy but, from my experience, they only keep up to 25 amp in stock. You can see "real" generating sets on our web site www.vikingpowersystems.com but we only do export work and not any local domestic type equipment.

If you want an auto system then the best value are the ASCO changeover switches but you'r still probably talking around 30,000 Baht for a unit with the control logic.

If you go down the manual route, as someone else said, use a switch with a centre off position.

[Kenny202]

The legal position is that there isn't a legal position... just do it.

Actually if all you want is to run some fans and lights why not get a couple of deep cycle batteries and a inverter, that way you can get a few hours on battery power and simply recharge the batteries when the power comes on.

Top quality generators will automatically start up take over when the power goes off, but they are very much more expensive than than the portable type that you are probably looking at.

I don't have the need for an auto switch over type thing. I'm wondering what challenges well have next? Put in a hot shower after months of cold dunks through winter. Then the town water went to poop. Put in a pump and tanks problem solved....for 2 weeks. No power cuts no pump. Someone has to be doing this to annoy me!

[genset]

Hi Guys,

Some of you may find this post useful (the first part at least), it was written back in 2009, so please ignore the references to Kipor Generators we are an exclusive Cummins dealer now (Genuine Cummins Power Generator Products), as they are the only brand name supplier in Thailand providing the kind of after sales support and warranty we expect from a brand name product.

Crossy has posted a number of times regarding transfer switches, I would only add two comments, the first to reiterate a point Crossy made, that any automatic transfer switch must feature an interlock (electrical and mechanical if possible) to isolate the generator and utility feeds from each other and to prevent them from being connected to your home distribution system simultaneously. Although you dont need permission from PEA to install a transfer switch system in Thailand (the exception being if you wish to install a synchronized system), if you dont take the necessary precautions to isolate Generator power from Utility power, you may find yourself in big trouble with the PEA if your Generator begins feeding power onto the grid, not to mention the fact that you could potentially electrocute anybody working on the Utility lines upstream from your location.

Second comment is regarding the isolation of utility power when you work on your distribution system or install an ATS. As Crossy mentions, no such thing as a service fuse in Thailand. We routinely install a HRC isolation panel in line on the Utility supply between the meter and the first point of contact when we do an installation, which would be the ATS. The warranty for the Cummins ATS panel is void if a sufficiently rated HRC (High Rupture Capacity) ptotection device is not installed (it protects the ATS from potential high ground fault current), but it has the added advantage of allowing you to very simply isolate the power from your residence if you wish to undertake additional electrical work, without resorting to the flip flop and marigold method mentioned by Crossy.

Attached: pictures of a 110kVA installation with soundproof ventilation (much larger than most domestic users would require) together with HRC and ATS a panels.

Cheers, Genset.

Edited May 4, 2015 by genset

[Crossy]

Listen to this man ^^^

[jacko45k]

I am qualified in Australia so doing the job no problem but reason I asked is I will have to get the local power people to pull the plug on the mains or remove the service fuse while I reconnect to the transfer switch.

Not if you do it downstream of the incoming breaker.

My neighbour did it using a large socket on his outside wall where he connected the standby generator....and a 3 way changeover.

Personally I would only want to run my fridge and a bit of lighting and maybe a fan or two........

[PLW]

Kenny202 Alot of people in Thailand should have their own generator.Because your an electrician I would definately install a connect disconnect box with a easy plug access plug or you can make it a permanent connect. Remember do your needed electrical load calculation for when you need emergency power and size your generator at lease 1.5 your power needs. Either turn off appliances you dont need or or run a separate power circuits to where you need emergency power and connect as needed. Also give your generator its own ground.

[yankee99]

we have a little geni,, and to be honest i havnt wired it in, all we do is run 2 extentions from it one to the kitchen for the fridge, a light and a fan and the other goes into the living room for a fan and light,and computer,

the electric is not off for more then 6 hours at a time lol,

it does for us,

jake

Nice generator ;/)

[genset]

If you want to get a decent manual transfer switch then PMK Corporation in Bangkok is the distributor for Krauss-Naimer. Most electrical supply places will be able to sell you a Chinese copy but, from my experience, they only keep up to 25 amp in stock. You can see "real" generating sets on our web site www.vikingpowersystems.com but we only do export work and not any local domestic type equipment.

If you want an auto system then the best value are the ASCO changeover switches but you'r still probably talking around 30,000 Baht for a unit with the control logic.

If you go down the manual route, as someone else said, use a switch with a centre off position.

As BC says, there are a myriad of Automatic Transfer Switch panels available in Thailand, many of which are manufactured in Thailand, some of which feature original electronic control panels (DeepSea, ComAP etc.), others which feature copies.

In principle, most ATS panels operate in the same way; i would pay attention to the quality of components used and the manner in which they have been installed as a first indication of panel quality, but of more importance is that who ever installs and commissions the panel knows what they are doing. ATS controllers feature many paramaters, and adjusting one can have a cascading effect on others, also the meaning of each parameter can be a little fuzzy unless youre familiar with ATS operation, especially if its a Chinese panel with a knock off controller, which has been translated into ChingLish and then installed by a Thai electrician who has difficulty discerning Live from Neutral, you get the idea... A number of our customers tell us that they have a Generator and ATS which is 'Broken' or has never worked properly since the first day it was installed; invariably the problem is more often than not , not an equipment issue (although it can be), but more likely control wiring, or ATS controller parameter set-up.

For smaller generators, or those who dont necessarily want to spend money on a fully automatic system, a manual 3 position transfer switch should be used. As BC says, it has a 'centre off position' this type of switch is known as a 'Break Before Make' transfer switch, position one is for Utility Power, position two is the 'Break' or off postion, which isolates both supplies from each other and from the distribution board, and position three is for Generator Power.

Cheers, Genset.

Edited May 4, 2015 by genset

[joshstiles]

wow...the things people worry about in the land of corruption

...just frickin do it and be done with it, sparky

[billd766]

I am sitting on the sidelines here.

I would like to install a standby generator when the money becomes available and I do understand the necessity of a transfer switch.

I have 2 houses which come from the one meter as a single pair of cablesand runsome 30 odd metres to a point where they pair off. One set then comes to the big house and the main cable then runs on to the smaller house.

I have a workshop between the 2 houses where I can put a standby generator that will be out of the weather and a wall to mount whatever type of transfer switch onto.

My main problem will be how to disconnect the main input from the meter before the junction of the 2 houses and wire that into one input of the transfer switch, (the other input would be connected to the generator) and then from the transfer switch output back out to the junction of the 2 houses.

I have made a rough XLS sketch of the current wiring if this helps.

rough wiring paln v01.xls

[maidee]

have to wait till that tesla guy starts to sell his stuff overhere ?

sadly it will be overpriced by 300% import taxes

not that thais are able to create such a technology

[RigPig]

I am sitting on the sidelines here.

I would like to install a standby generator when the money becomes available and I do understand the necessity of a transfer switch.

I have 2 houses which come from the one meter as a single pair of cablesand runsome 30 odd metres to a point where they pair off. One set then comes to the big house and the main cable then runs on to the smaller house.

I have a workshop between the 2 houses where I can put a standby generator that will be out of the weather and a wall to mount whatever type of transfer switch onto.

My main problem will be how to disconnect the main input from the meter before the junction of the 2 houses and wire that into one input of the transfer switch, (the other input would be connected to the generator) and then from the transfer switch output back out to the junction of the 2 houses.

I have made a rough XLS sketch of the current wiring if this helps.

rough wiring paln v01.xls

So from your description what you want to do is run BOTH houses from a standby gen set if the power goes down?

From your diagram the only way is to connect into the mains from the meter.How are these cables run? (Overhead on poles? Underground?)

You will need to run the power from the mains (meter) and the genny through the (2 inputs of the)¨change over switch¨ and back out to the main cable supplying the houses. How you achieve this is dependent upon how the existing cables are run.

[Doc46]

Thanks bloke. Unscrew the tails live?

Yep that's what they do here to connect and to disconnect rental homes,,,I am a dutch Chang FI (Electrician)You can do anything and it will be better than what they do in Thailand and Australia )

[Khunangkaro]

why not get a couple of deep cycle batteries and a inverter

Or just connect the inverter with your car battery (start engine (generator) when need).

You could also wire a couple of LED lights on to your motorbike.

We light a couple of candles or take a nap.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Khunangkaro

[RigPig]

Thanks bloke. Unscrew the tails live?

Yep that's what they do here to connect and to disconnect rental homes,,,I am a dutch Chang FI (Electrician)You can do anything and it will be better than what they do in Thailand and Australia )

Hmmmm OK I´l bite.....

Better than Thailand and AUSTRALIA?

How so? Australia has some of, if not the, strictest and safest electrical system / standards in the world!!!

[humqdpf]

If you are only going to use fans and LED lights, why go to the difficulty of installing a back-up generator along with the costs of fuel etc.

Can I suggest you invest instead in a battery-backup system instead. Less maintenance and fuss and probably cheaper in the longer term.

[nithisa78]

There must be a local electrician you can hire and do it together. Whatever needs to be done, I normally just hang around and make suggestions. Which are always well received.

[Naam]

The bigest problem with a Jenny is to stop it from being stolen. Bolt it and padlock it to the floor.

not necessarily. i had TV-member "genset" in my home and we discussed "generator to supply ~50% of my home's peak demand". if i recall correctly the appropriate model weighs more than half a ton and can't be "connected decently and easily to the fusebox with a three-pin cable"

[Crossy]

People.

I rarely remove posts offering poor advice, preferring instead to guide and assist posters in implementing a safe and economical solution.

I have just broken that rule.

Connecting a genset using a lead with a plug on both ends is NEVER an option even in an emergency. There are just too many things to go wrong, most of which could have lethal consequences.

[billd766]

I am sitting on the sidelines here.

I would like to install a standby generator when the money becomes available and I do understand the necessity of a transfer switch.

I have 2 houses which come from the one meter as a single pair of cablesand runsome 30 odd metres to a point where they pair off. One set then comes to the big house and the main cable then runs on to the smaller house.

I have a workshop between the 2 houses where I can put a standby generator that will be out of the weather and a wall to mount whatever type of transfer switch onto.

My main problem will be how to disconnect the main input from the meter before the junction of the 2 houses and wire that into one input of the transfer switch, (the other input would be connected to the generator) and then from the transfer switch output back out to the junction of the 2 houses.

I have made a rough XLS sketch of the current wiring if this helps.

rough wiring paln v01.xls

So from your description what you want to do is run BOTH houses from a standby gen set if the power goes down?

From your diagram the only way is to connect into the mains from the meter.How are these cables run? (Overhead on poles? Underground?)

You will need to run the power from the mains (meter) and the genny through the (2 inputs of the)¨change over switch¨ and back out to the main cable supplying the houses. How you achieve this is dependent upon how the existing cables are run.

I am sorry. I forgot to mention that all the cabling is up on poles.

I have the feeling that I will have to run a new set of cables from the meter to where I site the transfer switch on one input, the other input being the generator, and then from the output of the switch run the cables back to where they join the 2 houses together. I would use the normal heavy black power cable similar to the existing cable.

[Kiwi1]

FWIW: My experience from living on Waiheke Island NZ .

Years ago mains supply by cable from mainland had poor regulation and went down quite often but never off more than 24 hours at most.

The basic cheap and cheerful 1500 w or so (diesel preferred) genset set up in concrete block kennel on outside wall of house will do a good job. As others have suggested, just run an extension cord into the house with a multi outlet and plug the essentials like refrigerator, TV, computer and needed lights into it.

Also strongly advise having a UPS and spike suppressor to supply the computer at all times.

However, this would be a bit clumsy if outages were frequent and would then need to have manual or auto transfer switch. Have no experience of these.

Have some limited experience with solar panels and wind generators charging batteries supplying an inverter for 230v ac. Not cheap and batteries do not last for ever. Mr Tesla notwithstanding, not the economical answer for most situations Like $3000 worth of plant to store $3 worth of electricity. Small diesel generator better if normal mains available most of the time.

Friends who used bottle gas for cooking ran a small standby generator off gas and were pleased with the results.

[RigPig]

If you wire in a decent 3 pin socket to the fusebox bus bar & nuetral, you can use a cable with a plug on each end to connect the 'Jenny' as and when to the fusebox easily via the socket. I wired a buzzer and a switch to the fusebox incoming to remind me that the mains electric is back on. YOU MUST switch off the fuse box to disconnect the mains from the box when the Jenny is connected.

When the mains returns the buzzer will sound, stop the Jenny, disconect the plugs, switch on the fusebox and all is back to normal.

I expect the experts will condem this, but we have been doing it this way for 30 years. The fusebox will still operate as normal whilst the Jenny in connected.

The bigest problem with a Jenny is to stop it from being stolen. Bolt it and padlock it to the floor.

You are using a cord with a plug on both ends? So there is a plug with LIVE pins exposed to back feed your house?

That is a great recommendation to the forum, as an electrician the first rule is to NEVER put someone in a position where they can sustain an electric shock and NEVER to put property into a situation where it can cause a fire!!!

Go and plug your lead into your generator, hold the (LIVE) pins and get back to me how that works out for you, feel free to use any children around to check out the result (if you are not game to do it yourself)...

Doing something wrong for 30 years doesn´t make it right, just because it works doesn´t make it safe (or right)!!

[RigPig]

There must be a local electrician you can hire and do it together. Whatever needs to be done, I normally just hang around and make suggestions. Which are always well received.

I let ´em do the manual labour then fix it after they have gone, you know stuff like the TNT (twist ń' tape) joins, connect the earth up stuff like that.....

I have NEVER sen a light fitting in Thailand with an Earth wire yet.....

[RigPig]

I am sitting on the sidelines here.

I would like to install a standby generator when the money becomes available and I do understand the necessity of a transfer switch.

I have 2 houses which come from the one meter as a single pair of cablesand runsome 30 odd metres to a point where they pair off. One set then comes to the big house and the main cable then runs on to the smaller house.

I have a workshop between the 2 houses where I can put a standby generator that will be out of the weather and a wall to mount whatever type of transfer switch onto.

My main problem will be how to disconnect the main input from the meter before the junction of the 2 houses and wire that into one input of the transfer switch, (the other input would be connected to the generator) and then from the transfer switch output back out to the junction of the 2 houses.

I have made a rough XLS sketch of the current wiring if this helps.

rough wiring paln v01.xls

So from your description what you want to do is run BOTH houses from a standby gen set if the power goes down?

From your diagram the only way is to connect into the mains from the meter.How are these cables run? (Overhead on poles? Underground?)

You will need to run the power from the mains (meter) and the genny through the (2 inputs of the)¨change over switch¨ and back out to the main cable supplying the houses. How you achieve this is dependent upon how the existing cables are run.

I am sorry. I forgot to mention that all the cabling is up on poles.

I have the feeling that I will have to run a new set of cables from the meter to where I site the transfer switch on one input, the other input being the generator, and then from the output of the switch run the cables back to where they join the 2 houses together. I would use the normal heavy black power cable similar to the existing cable.

Yep, without seeing it, it is too hard to say but you need to get the wires from the meter to your change over switch and run a new set of cables from the meter to the switch to make it work. Just be aware that in Thailand they use a lot of aluminium cabling over head, copper is better but of course more expensive. But you must use hard drawn cable as it is less prone to stretching when suspended in air. The reason the cables are black is because they use charcoal to colour the plastic insulation and charcoal is naturally UV resistant. Feel free to PM me if you need any help. Good luck

[genset]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

If you wire in a decent 3 pin socket to the fusebox bus bar & nuetral, you can use a cable with a plug on each end to connect the 'Jenny' as and when to the fusebox easily via the socket. I wired a buzzer and a switch to the fusebox incoming to remind me that the mains electric is back on. YOU MUST switch off the fuse box to disconnect the mains from the box when the Jenny is connected.
When the mains returns the buzzer will sound, stop the Jenny, disconect the plugs, switch on the fusebox and all is back to normal.
I expect the experts will condem this, but we have been doing it this way for 30 years. The fusebox will still operate as normal whilst the Jenny in connected.

The bigest problem with a Jenny is to stop it from being stolen. Bolt it and padlock it to the floor.

You are using a cord with a plug on both ends? So there is a plug with LIVE pins exposed to back feed your house?

That is a great recommendation to the forum, as an electrician the first rule is to NEVER put someone in a position where they can sustain an electric shock and NEVER to put property into a situation where it can cause a fire!!!

Go and plug your lead into your generator, hold the (LIVE) pins and get back to me how that works out for you, feel free to use any children around to check out the result (if you are not game to do it yourself)...

Doing something wrong for 30 years doesn´t make it right, just because it works doesn´t make it safe (or right)!!

I am responding to the quoted comments above, as Crossy has removed 'Windas' original post:

First a comment about ThaiVisa forum in general and the advice offered herein.

It's reasonable to expect that we can't all be experts in all fields, and in Thailand we all know that it's difficult to find expert tradesmen. You may find the odd armchair enthusiast on the forum, poised to poke holes and deride the advice offered on a collection of subjects (some of which is admittedly questionable advice), but for the most part those asking for advice are trying to understand how to do things safely, efficiently, cost effectively, in short properly; and those offering it, do so in a civil way based on their own experiences, or perhaps their expertise. The reader can reasonably sort the wheat from the chaff; Crossy is a good example, I happen to know what he does for a living here in Thailand, he is a busy guy, involved in one of Thailand's flagship projects and I for one am delighted that he gives his time for free here, not only as a mod, but as a true expert in the area of all matters electrical. You would be hard pressed to find an electrical engineering consultant in Bangkok, who you could pay to offer you better advice than he will give for free on this forum, so long may he stick with it. For myself, I dont have any kind of god complex when it comes to generators, but i do have over 20 years experience in designing, installing and commissioning standby and prime power systems, including complex synchronized systems, so I feel fairly confident that i can withstand any slings and arrows tossed in my direction

Now to 'Windas' quote above. I think we all agree that it's not the safest approach to applying standby power to a home distribution board, whether it has worked for 30 years or not; but rather than condemn him as he suggests, I would like to explain why, for the reference of anybody who might be interested.

The PEA provides a 'high voltage' electrical supply to your transformer, which then steps it down to 'low voltage', it flows through your meter and then to your home distribution board. Now Windas has mentioned that after connecting his generator directly to the phase and neutral bars of his DB, he disconnects the main fuse when he operates the generator... Regardless, lets say he forgets, or somebody else resets it... what will happen? Well your innocent looking generator (even the small portable types), which produces a low voltage AC supply, will backfeed power, through your DB and back up the utility lines to the transformer, which then operates in reverse. It takes the low power fed from your generator and steps it up to high voltage, which is then fed upstream along the utility lines and also i should add, into your neighbours homes. Now if this is a regular power outage there maybe nobody working on the utility lines, but if its scheduled PEA maintenance work there may be. The PEA workers may have isolated power from the upstream supply (the local substation) and are not expecting the high voltage lines to be energized, which can quite easily lead to death or serious injury. Nobody would want to deal with the aftermath of this kind of situation, least of all an expat living in Thailand, for that reason I would encourage anybody thinking of powering their DB with a standby generator to think very carefully about how they do it, before they do it. A manual transfer switch is a safe and reasonably priced solution to this problem.

Cheers Genset.

Edited May 6, 2015 by genset

[billd766]

I am sitting on the sidelines here.

I would like to install a standby generator when the money becomes available and I do understand the necessity of a transfer switch.

I have 2 houses which come from the one meter as a single pair of cablesand runsome 30 odd metres to a point where they pair off. One set then comes to the big house and the main cable then runs on to the smaller house.

I have a workshop between the 2 houses where I can put a standby generator that will be out of the weather and a wall to mount whatever type of transfer switch onto.

My main problem will be how to disconnect the main input from the meter before the junction of the 2 houses and wire that into one input of the transfer switch, (the other input would be connected to the generator) and then from the transfer switch output back out to the junction of the 2 houses.

I have made a rough XLS sketch of the current wiring if this helps.

rough wiring paln v01.xls

So from your description what you want to do is run BOTH houses from a standby gen set if the power goes down?

From your diagram the only way is to connect into the mains from the meter.How are these cables run? (Overhead on poles? Underground?)

You will need to run the power from the mains (meter) and the genny through the (2 inputs of the)¨change over switch¨ and back out to the main cable supplying the houses. How you achieve this is dependent upon how the existing cables are run.

I am sorry. I forgot to mention that all the cabling is up on poles.

I have the feeling that I will have to run a new set of cables from the meter to where I site the transfer switch on one input, the other input being the generator, and then from the output of the switch run the cables back to where they join the 2 houses together. I would use the normal heavy black power cable similar to the existing cable.

Yep, without seeing it, it is too hard to say but you need to get the wires from the meter to your change over switch and run a new set of cables from the meter to the switch to make it work. Just be aware that in Thailand they use a lot of aluminium cabling over head, copper is better but of course more expensive. But you must use hard drawn cable as it is less prone to stretching when suspended in air. The reason the cables are black is because they use charcoal to colour the plastic insulation and charcoal is naturally UV resistant. Feel free to PM me if you need any help. Good luck

I will pay the extra and use copper cables. I figure I need about 100 metres and it runs 4 poles including the meter pole.

Edited May 6, 2015 by billd766

[carlyai]

There must be a local electrician you can hire and do it together. Whatever needs to be done, I normally just hang around and make suggestions. Which are always well received.

I let ´em do the manual labour then fix it after they have gone, you know stuff like the TNT (twist ń' tape) joins, connect the earth up stuff like that.....

I have NEVER sen a light fitting in Thailand with an Earth wire yet.....

Next time you're desperate for a trip away and you decide to motor to near Kuchinari in beautiful Isaan, drop in. I've got all mine earthed!

Well I think I have