Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[balo]

OK genuine replies only

Does anybody recall or know when and how the allegations of an altercation in a bar between one of the victims and a thai first materialised

Interesting question, I hope they did not come from gossip.

If I remember correctly a witness told it to a local reporter on the island.

[Nigeone]

Here is the original CCTV of running man from a Thai paper. Listen. Somebody would have been sleeping and heard screams and fighting, it would wake me up anyways, and I'd record at the very least, More likely I would go see what in the world was going on. My presumptions, Yes.

The important question here is if you look at the guy returning, there is obviously someone walking in front of him as the shadow can be seen - why did they cut the other person out ? Who were they and who did the editting?

I've looked at this a few times now and not sure I can see a shadow of anyone apart from the obvious. There is shading around but that could be trees etc

[balo]

John, why is there no footage from AC bar at all? They have working CCTV but there's no record of who went in and out? It's conveniently missing or not been looked at?

Where is your source that there was cameras in the AC Bar? ....

There is at least one camera on the front entrance to the AC bar. An actual working camera on KT, amazing! It shows David entering the bar about 2.5 hours before the crime, but then ..... It shows nothing else. So even that one camera seized filming. Why? Did it show people entering and/or leaving the bar which the Headman, Mon, police and prosecution don't want any outsiders to see? If so, it shouldn't surprise anyone at this point, if RTP are continuing to hide/destroy/ignore/discount/misinterpret evidence.

Sorry but that is also speculation from your side. Has the court asked for more CCTV footage from AC bar yet ? How do you know that the footage from the one camera working was deleted? What we saw in the media was David enetering the bar, there could be also other images from that camera published.

You assume the rest of the footage was deleted or has it been confirmed?

[Darkknight666]

John, why is there no footage from AC bar at all? They have working CCTV but there's no record of who went in and out? It's conveniently missing or not been looked at?

Where is your source that there was cameras in the AC Bar? ....

There is at least one camera on the front entrance to the AC bar. An actual working camera on KT, amazing! It shows David entering the bar about 2.5 hours before the crime, but then ..... It shows nothing else. So even that one camera seized filming. Why? Did it show people entering and/or leaving the bar which the Headman, Mon, police and prosecution don't want any outsiders to see? If so, it shouldn't surprise anyone at this point, if RTP are continuing to hide/destroy/ignore/discount/misinterpret evidence.

Sorry but that is also speculation from your side. Has the court asked for more CCTV footage from AC bar yet ? How do you know that the footage from the one camera working was deleted? What we saw in the media was David enetering the bar, there could be also other images from that camera published.

You assume the rest of the footage was deleted or has it been confirmed?

The prosecution hasn't brought it up and I doubt the defense has access to CCTV the prosecution have now... Not sure if they will get to see it or already did, but it should show exactly who was there that night even if the killers came in the back door. If you can identify who went in the front and what time, those witnesses can be summoned to testify... In the real world, anyways.

[Nigeone]

The only way for justice, in this lifetime, is for a vigilante group to see that the liars and those covering up are taken care of. Perhaps donations can start on a facebook page?

Even if this was posted 'tongue in cheek', encouraging vigilantism is more than stupid.

Yes agree totally, in answering to his post I omitted to add that. Then it was to late to edit. The only way things could move forward in Thailand is proper justice is carried out within the framework of correct policing and prosecutions. I hope this will be the good to come out of this situation. Justice now and forever.!.

[thailandchilli]

Here is the original CCTV of running man from a Thai paper. Listen. Somebody would have been sleeping and heard screams and fighting, it would wake me up anyways, and I'd record at the very least, More likely I would go see what in the world was going on. My presumptions, Yes.

The important question here is if you look at the guy returning, there is obviously someone walking in front of him as the shadow can be seen - why did they cut the other person out ? Who were they and who did the editting?

I've looked at this a few times now and not sure I can see a shadow of anyone apart from the obvious. There is shading around but that could be trees etc

Yes this is the missing minutes of the cctv where there is someone walking in front, it is thought to be the mystery couple and prime witnesses to the running man and maybe a lot more involved? More cctv footage that is being withheld from the court and public viewing!!

[Darkknight666]

Here is the original CCTV of running man from a Thai paper. Listen. Somebody would have been sleeping and heard screams and fighting, it would wake me up anyways, and I'd record at the very least, More likely I would go see what in the world was going on. My presumptions, Yes.

The important question here is if you look at the guy returning, there is obviously someone walking in front of him as the shadow can be seen - why did they cut the other person out ? Who were they and who did the editting?

I've looked at this a few times now and not sure I can see a shadow of anyone apart from the obvious. There is shading around but that could be trees etc

Yes this is the missing minutes of the cctv where there is someone walking in front, it is thought to be the mystery couple and prime witnesses to the running man and maybe a lot more involved? More cctv footage that is being withheld from the court and public viewing!!

Oh, I recognize that guy... Interesting. I wonder if they're witnesses?

[Basil B]

What prosecution case? They haven't managed to offer anything so far that can be described as solid evidence.

Quite disturbing actually.

To be fair... we only really hear about evidence that the prosecution is discrediting... but if is all the evidence then, well lets put it this way, if it were in the UK and I was on the Jury I think I would be writing notes the to judge asking why we are wasting our time here...

This case also highlights why in the UK we have strict sub judice laws and Jurors are instructed to avoid newspaper, radio and TV articles related to the case and not allowed to discus or research it out side the jury room.

[Briggsy]

If the Burmese are found not guilty,will a new investigation be opened

to find the real killers,or will it just be forgotten about,like a lot of other

murders here in Thailand.

regards Worgeordie

You can reference the Kirsty Jones case for the answer to your question (which is 'no, no further credible investigating will take place').

If you are not familiar with the case, I strongly recommend you read about it. The similarities to this case are very strong.

[Neeranam]

Here is the original CCTV of running man from a Thai paper. Listen. Somebody would have been sleeping and heard screams and fighting, it would wake me up anyways, and I'd record at the very least, More likely I would go see what in the world was going on. My presumptions, Yes.

The important question here is if you look at the guy returning, there is obviously someone walking in front of him as the shadow can be seen - why did they cut the other person out ?

May I ask but just how many shadows do you see in this footage?

If you watch in slow motion around 13-14 seconds, on his return there is his shadow plus the person in front of hims.

[thailandchilli]

The important question here is if you look at the guy returning, there is obviously someone walking in front of him as the shadow can be seen - why did they cut the other person out ? Who were they and who did the editting?

I've looked at this a few times now and not sure I can see a shadow of anyone apart from the obvious. There is shading around but that could be trees etc

Yes this is the missing minutes of the cctv where there is someone walking in front, it is thought to be the mystery couple and prime witnesses to the running man and maybe a lot more involved? More cctv footage that is being withheld from the court and public viewing!!

Oh, I recognize that guy... Interesting. I wonder if they're witnesses?

Without doubt they are witnesses to the running man, they were just a few meters in front of him. As we can see from the time stamps they were in the area a long time. I presume nothing has been mentioned about this by the RTP and yet these are people who are actual witnesses to this guy. Unbelievable incompetence by the RTP again or even more wait to a very shoddy cover up.

[smedly]

Here is the original CCTV of running man from a Thai paper. Listen. Somebody would have been sleeping and heard screams and fighting, it would wake me up anyways, and I'd record at the very least, More likely I would go see what in the world was going on. My presumptions, Yes.

The important question here is if you look at the guy returning, there is obviously someone walking in front of him as the shadow can be seen - why did they cut the other person out ? Who were they and who did the editting?

you are correct, it would be clearly shown if the video was covering about 10secs more footage, white tee shirt or shirt with a black band on the sleeve, that part of the camera view is a blur possibly due to contamination on the lens

The main person in the coverage is tall thin has that characteristic left arm swing and a largish nose with well oversized shorts, went somewhere for just over 2 mins and returns with someone else walking slightly ahead

[loonodingle]

What about checking CCTV to see how Nomsod arrived on the island in the first place. Anything that proves he was there hurts his families credibility.

Are you mad???

That island was cleaned top to bottom. All cctv that was Incriminating dissapeared. All facebook accounts of locals cleared out pictures of NS. The word went out not to comment on the case. It was as close to surgi al wipe.down as they could muster.

There was a guy Chris who is a British guy works at a dive school who posted he had a beer with Sean McAnna thta night but that dissapeared.

[thailandchilli]

What about checking CCTV to see how Nomsod arrived on the island in the first place. Anything that proves he was there hurts his families credibility.

Are you mad???

That island was cleaned top to bottom. All cctv that was Incriminating dissapeared. All facebook accounts of locals cleared out pictures of NS. The word went out not to comment on the case. It was as close to surgi al wipe.down as they could muster.

There was a guy Chris who is a British guy works at a dive school who posted he had a beer with Sean McAnna thta night but that dissapeared.

Yes and the clearing out of photos and posts from facebook is easily verified, just go to any of the facebook pages of local dj's and all those with connections to AC bar and headmans family. Sept 2015 no longer exists on their facebook. This is a fact.

[Neeranam]

The only way for justice, in this lifetime, is for a vigilante group to see that the liars and those covering up are taken care of. Perhaps donations can start on a facebook page?

Even if this was posted 'tongue in cheek', encouraging vigilantism is more than stupid.

Agree brewsterbudgen. I doubt it's tongue in cheek, sadly. The bravado shown from behind the keyboard is as astonishing as their ignorance. Mildly entertaining though it is...

In case you are not a troll - What bravado? What are you going on about? Do you know flaming is against forum rules?

If you think justice will be served like it is in your country then you are the naive newbie and the ignorant one.

The ironic thing is that YOU would probably never say such a thing face to face.

[Nigeone]

Here is the original CCTV of running man from a Thai paper. Listen. Somebody would have been sleeping and heard screams and fighting, it would wake me up anyways, and I'd record at the very least, More likely I would go see what in the world was going on. My presumptions, Yes.

The important question here is if you look at the guy returning, there is obviously someone walking in front of him as the shadow can be seen - why did they cut the other person out ?

May I ask but just how many shadows do you see in this footage?

If you watch in slow motion around 13-14 seconds, on his return there is his shadow plus the person in front of hims.

Yes I see what your saying now and that fits in with the possible shading. Selective CCTV, why am I not surprised. I wonder have the couple ever been asked any questions. Shouldn't have been hard to find him at least he's pretty distinctive

[Darkknight666]

What about checking CCTV to see how Nomsod arrived on the island in the first place. Anything that proves he was there hurts his families credibility.

Are you mad???

That island was cleaned top to bottom. All cctv that was Incriminating dissapeared. All facebook accounts of locals cleared out pictures of NS. The word went out not to comment on the case. It was as close to surgi al wipe.down as they could muster.

There was a guy Chris who is a British guy works at a dive school who posted he had a beer with Sean McAnna thta night but that dissapeared.

Yes and the clearing out of photos and posts from facebook is easily verified, just go to any of the facebook pages of local dj's and all those with connections to AC bar and headmans family. Sept 2015 no longer exists on their facebook. This is a fact.

Which is something I've mentioned and still people say "does deleting your Facebook make you guilty?" Well not technically but it's very suspicious! I'd love to find shark tooth ring dudes FB.

[stephenterry]

What about checking CCTV to see how Nomsod arrived on the island in the first place. Anything that proves he was there hurts his families credibility.

Are you mad???

That island was cleaned top to bottom. All cctv that was Incriminating dissapeared. All facebook accounts of locals cleared out pictures of NS. The word went out not to comment on the case. It was as close to surgi al wipe.down as they could muster.

There was a guy Chris who is a British guy works at a dive school who posted he had a beer with Sean McAnna thta night but that dissapeared.

Yes and the clearing out of photos and posts from facebook is easily verified, just go to any of the facebook pages of local dj's and all those with connections to AC bar and headmans family. Sept 2015 no longer exists on their facebook. This is a fact.

If proven, one could reason it was not to protect the B2. In which case it is prima facie evidence for the defence. I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned on here before - or has it?

[smedly]

Here is the original CCTV of running man from a Thai paper. Listen. Somebody would have been sleeping and heard screams and fighting, it would wake me up anyways, and I'd record at the very least, More likely I would go see what in the world was going on. My presumptions, Yes.

The important question here is if you look at the guy returning, there is obviously someone walking in front of him as the shadow can be seen - why did they cut the other person out ?

May I ask but just how many shadows do you see in this footage?

bottom left at 14 secs - clearly another person

[joebrown]

In Thailand if a crime re-enactment takes place the perp(s) in custody wear their normal attire eg T shirt and shorts/long trousers. This was not the case with the B2 who had to wear body armour and helmets, which we're told was for their own protection from possible hostile onlookers. This I now find surprising bearing in mind the high turnout of oonlookers, but lack of any form of visible/audible hostile reaction during the re-enactment.

I read that the B2s' former lawyer and an English newspaper remarked about bruises seen on the B2, presumably as a result of persuasive methods used to elicit confessions. IMHO the body armour might have been worn for the protection of the police, not the B2. Had the B2 worn their usual T shirts, without additional restraint eg body armour there might have been the danger that body bruises would be revealed accidentally or otherwise, should they be involved in bending over or other physical activity during the re-enactment. At any point either or both the B2 could have raised their T shirts for everyone to see their injuries. This was a situation the police had to avoid, hence the body armour. One other observation about the re-enactment is the attitude/demenour and close attention shown towards the B2 by the roti vendor/translator. He gave the impression to me of a man basking in the media attention, whilst at the same time actively guiding his captives along the beach. Very disturbing!

[loonodingle]

The only way for justice, in this lifetime, is for a vigilante group to see that the liars and those covering up are taken care of. Perhaps donations can start on a facebook page?

Even if this was posted 'tongue in cheek', encouraging vigilantism is more than stupid.

Agree brewsterbudgen. I doubt it's tongue in cheek, sadly. The bravado shown from behind the keyboard is as astonishing as their ignorance. Mildly entertaining though it is...

In case you are not a troll - What bravado? What are you going on about? Do you know flaming is against forum rules?

If you think justice will be served like it is in your country then you are the naive newbie and the ignorant one.

The ironic thing is that YOU would probably never say such a thing face to face.

whilst you maybe well intentioned what you are suggesting is already an offence in the UK inciting etc is a criminal act and far worse than flaming.

And you know what they say.

"Only empty cans Rattle"

[Lancashireman]

The only way for justice, in this lifetime, is for a vigilante group to see that the liars and those covering up are taken care of. Perhaps donations can start on a facebook page?

Even if this was posted 'tongue in cheek', encouraging vigilantism is more than stupid.

Agree brewsterbudgen. I doubt it's tongue in cheek, sadly. The bravado shown from behind the keyboard is as astonishing as their ignorance. Mildly entertaining though it is...

In case you are not a troll - What bravado? What are you going on about? Do you know flaming is against forum rules?

If you think justice will be served like it is in your country then you are the naive newbie and the ignorant one.

The ironic thing is that YOU would probably never say such a thing face to face.

Neeranam. I am not a troll, but I agree with brewsterbudgen. Look up the noun bravado, and tell me it doesn't go on, on this thread or anywhere else. Sorry you felt it necessary to attempt an insult, but 'I do face to face' for a living.

[Si Thea01]

Here is the original CCTV of running man from a Thai paper. Listen. Somebody would have been sleeping and heard screams and fighting, it would wake me up anyways, and I'd record at the very least, More likely I would go see what in the world was going on. My presumptions, Yes.

The important question here is if you look at the guy returning, there is obviously someone walking in front of him as the shadow can be seen - why did they cut the other person out ?

May I ask but just how many shadows do you see in this footage?

bottom left at 14 secs - clearly another person

Thanks for your response. You initially indicated a shadow, and yes I can see that but only the one which is behind the person walking right to left. I do see movement in the area you designated but have you ever thought of it being an optical illusion. The human eyes often play tricks and this comes about when the brain receives messages and it interprets them.

Even though we may all see the same thing, it is in fact, an illusion, and in this instance may be caused by the position of various lighting in the immediate area. I could be wrong but the movement appears to be in tandem with the movement of the person as he nears the left of the frame. If it was another person, I believe it would have been noticed much earlier than the 14 second mark that you indicated. If you find this implausible, then feel free to offer your version as to why it has occurred.

[joebrown]

To :- Si Thea01

I think you should see post #5405 above on page 217 and then comment.

[thailandchilli]

Here is the original CCTV of running man from a Thai paper. Listen. Somebody would have been sleeping and heard screams and fighting, it would wake me up anyways, and I'd record at the very least, More likely I would go see what in the world was going on. My presumptions, Yes.

Thanks for your response. You initially indicated a shadow, and yes I can see that but only the one which is behind the person walking right to left. I do see movement in the area you designated but have you ever thought of it being an optical illusion. The human eyes often play tricks and this comes about when the brain receives messages and it interprets them.

Even though we may all see the same thing, it is in fact, an illusion, and in this instance may be caused by the position of various lighting in the immediate area. I could be wrong but the movement appears to be in tandem with the movement of the person as he nears the left of the frame. If it was another person, I believe it would have been noticed much earlier than the 14 second mark that you indicated. If you find this implausible, then feel free to offer your version as to why it has occurred.

Apologize for butting in but I think I can help here. On the cctv then looking at the time stamp of 0:14 and the video time stamp of 04:51:28 then this is where the shadow of what I believe to be the woman is walking ahead of the running/walking man.

I come to that by the cctv screenshots that I've attached and you see:

The mystery man and woman with the woman holding his hand and walking slightly behind him at a time of 04:51:25 followed by the running/walking man at 04:51:28 just 0.3 seconds behind the couple.

[smedly]

The important question here is if you look at the guy returning, there is obviously someone walking in front of him as the shadow can be seen - why did they cut the other person out ?

May I ask but just how many shadows do you see in this footage?

bottom left at 14 secs - clearly another person

Thanks for your response. You initially indicated a shadow, and yes I can see that but only the one which is behind the person walking right to left. I do see movement in the area you designated but have you ever thought of it being an optical illusion. The human eyes often play tricks and this comes about when the brain receives messages and it interprets them.

Even though we may all see the same thing, it is in fact, an illusion, and in this instance may be caused by the position of various lighting in the immediate area. I could be wrong but the movement appears to be in tandem with the movement of the person as he nears the left of the frame. If it was another person, I believe it would have been noticed much earlier than the 14 second mark that you indicated. If you find this implausible, then feel free to offer your version as to why it has occurred.

no it is definitely another person walking slightly ahead of the main figure, this footage has a chunk removed from the middle (about 2mins worth) it stops at about 12 secs (left to right) and resumes at 13secs (right to left) showing the subject walking in the opposite direction after about 2 mins of removed footage, if you play it frame by frame you will see there is distortion in the bottom right corner when the main subject is passing that point, so then go back to 13 secs and advance frame by frame and you will clearly see at 13-15sec someone passing that same distorted area of the image, I am lucky as I have a 60" hires screen with zoom

[Si Thea01]

What about checking CCTV to see how Nomsod arrived on the island in the first place. Anything that proves he was there hurts his families credibility.

Are you mad???

That island was cleaned top to bottom. All cctv that was Incriminating dissapeared. All facebook accounts of locals cleared out pictures of NS. The word went out not to comment on the case. It was as close to surgi al wipe.down as they could muster.

There was a guy Chris who is a British guy works at a dive school who posted he had a beer with Sean McAnna thta night but that dissapeared.

Yes and the clearing out of photos and posts from facebook is easily verified, just go to any of the facebook pages of local dj's and all those with connections to AC bar and headmans family. Sept 2015 no longer exists on their facebook. This is a fact.

If proven, one could reason it was not to protect the B2. In which case it is prima facie evidence for the defence. I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned on here before - or has it?

Prima Facie evidence, in legal terms, means that you have enough evidence to prove something by pointing to some basic facts but that the proof can be refuted. Now, not being a Facebook person, but I understand that it is a social media site, so are you able to explain why the removal of whatever from that site would, as you state, provide prima facia evidence for the defence? Evidence of what and no I am not being a smarty, it's just that I have no idea of what was posted or by whom and how it was detrimental to the defendants. So, if you would be kind enough to explain, then maybe I can see your point because at this stage I cannot.

In legal terms, my understanding that unless there is sufficient evidence to establish a prima facia case, then the matter may not proceed, that is after the defence or, in case of a civil action, the plaintiff's team , as well as the prosecution, addresses the court in respect of arguments for an against. Thailand law requires that a prima facie case be established, so given that the trail is proceeding, then it must have been established and it is now up to the defence to provide rebuttal evidence in order to contradict or nullify the evidence presented by the prosecution.

[glenmohr]

Embassies are unlikely to provide B&B or act as guarantor for murder suspects.

Chains usually come off once back in a secure environment. There are exceptions (mental health, violence) but they're not worn indefinately. All remand prisoners wear them at court to reduce the risk of escape.

Not sure Eva if the Embassy of Myanmar will agree with you that they are murder suspects. Given the longer history of Siam v Burma and the general fuss that is being made in Myanmar over this case, it is more likely that the Embassy will see them as Burmese citizens in need of assistance.

You say that usually the chains come off...etc. That may be true in the context of "usually" but it was reported that the Burmese slept in chains.This is not a case that the word "usually" will be applicable. It was also reported that Andy Hall had tried to sort it. Probably a question of money.

[Si Thea01]

Neeranam states:-

Quote> no it is definitely another person walking slightly ahead of the main figure, this footage has a chunk removed from the middle (about 2mins worth) it stops at about 12 secs (right to left) and resumes at 13secs (left to right) showing the subject walking in the opposite direction after about 2 mins of removed footage, if you play it frame by frame you will see there is distortion in the bottom right corner when the main subject is passing that point, so then go back to 13 secs and advance frame by frame and you will clearly see at 13-15sec someone passing that same distorted area of the image, I am lucky as I have a 60" hires screen with zoom <End quote

Thanks for enlightening me, as my eyes are not as good as they were. I'll take your word but unless it can identify someone then it is not going to prove or disprove anything. I really think one would need to see the whole video, which it does not appear anyone has, to be able to appraise the footage and determine what, if any, is relevant to the case. All that appears to be happening now is guess work as to what it is and that's not having a go at you.

[jimmybkk]

What about checking CCTV to see how Nomsod arrived on the island in the first place. Anything that proves he was there hurts his families credibility.

Are you mad???

That island was cleaned top to bottom. All cctv that was Incriminating dissapeared. All facebook accounts of locals cleared out pictures of NS. The word went out not to comment on the case. It was as close to surgi al wipe.down as they could muster.

There was a guy Chris who is a British guy works at a dive school who posted he had a beer with Sean McAnna thta night but that dissapeared.

Yes and the clearing out of photos and posts from facebook is easily verified, just go to any of the facebook pages of local dj's and all those with connections to AC bar and headmans family. Sept 2015 no longer exists on their facebook. This is a fact.

Which is something I've mentioned and still people say "does deleting your Facebook make you guilty?" Well not technically but it's very suspicious! I'd love to find shark tooth ring dudes FB.

Interesting point about "deleting your facebook"... I'm no expert but from what I have been reading it seems that where facebook is concerned the word "deleted" should be replaced with "hidden from view", because it would appear questionable if anything is ever truly deleted from facebook.

Here's an article from Oct 2011 that is quite enlightening (I did a quick search to see if the situation regarding facebook's data collection policies have changed since the article was written but nothing immediately suggested it has)

http://searchenginewatch.com/sew/news/2114059/facebook-file

According to the report in the above link, some of the information that is apparently held by facebook regardless of whether the user thinks they have deleted it:

• Every friend request you’ve ever received and how you responded.
• Every poke you’ve exchanged.
• Every event you’ve been invited to through Facebook and how you responded.
• The IP address used each and every time you’ve logged in to Facebook.
• Dates of user name changes and historical privacy settings changes.
• Camera metadata including time stamps and latitude/longitude of picture location, as well as tags from photos - even if you’ve untagged yourself.
• Credit card information, if you’ve ever purchased credits or advertising on Facebook.
• Your last known physical location, with latitude, longitude, time/date, altitude, and more. The report notes that they are unsure how Facebook collects this data.

Better Hope You’ve Behaved Yourself...

Ever flirted with someone other than your spouse in a Facebook chat? You had better hope your message records don’t end up in the hands of a divorce lawyer, because they can access even the ones you’ve deleted.

That day you called your employer in Chicago and begged off work, as you were sick? You logged in to Facebook from an IP address in Miami. Oops.

A few weeks ago, Australian hacker exposed Facebook’s practice of tracking logged out users and they quickly “fixed” the problem (after trying to defend it, initially). But the extent to which they collect and keep information users may not even realize they are giving Facebook in the first place - or believe they’ve deleted - is worrisome for privacy watchdogs.

And it would seem that this information is all potentially "available to attorneys and law enforcement via court order..."

Makes me glad I never embraced the whole facebook phenomenon.