Berserk elephant kills mahout, runs away with Chinese tourists on its back

[The Deerhunter]

I'm surprised there aren't more stories like this. Wild animals should not be kept in captivity. They should be viewed with caution, but in their natural environment. No doubt, this was in the name of conservation. A euphemism for money making exploitation.

If you want to see elephants then best place is the Elephant Conservation Centre near Lampang, a Royal sponsored project. A magnificent park with expert handlers and vets who do a great job with abandoned and injured elephants.

I have been twice. The second time was to see if the conditions /treatment seen on my first visit, was a one off bad day. It wasn't. I was not impressed in the least. I must admit, they have good P. R. though.

I did view them in their natural habitat in the Tsavo National Park outside Mombasa Kenya. Magnificent experience.

I have to agree with you. The most "flash" thing about the place was the fancy entrance sign and the new ?conference centre. Still, if the elephants can't be there, they'd have to be put down.

I am surprised the elephant in question still has it's tusks though. As proven they are lethal on an angry animal.

Silly comment. Why not cut off the trunks and feet while you are at it. Elephants can do marvelous and imaginative things with those five appendages to people if they get in a bad mood.

[FolkGuitar]

Elephants don't have to earn nothing...they were here long before civilization was.

They were here long before civilization began. We came along and built houses, farms, villages, roads... we cut down entire forests to make room for shopping malls, we damned rivers to make reservoirs, we did all sorts of terraforming to make the land more habitable... for humans. It's no longer habitable for vast herds of elephants. It's become OUR responsibility to take care of the needs of the elephants. If you don't want to pay, then the elephants DO need to earn their keep.

Will YOU feed and care for them? Right now, the elephant camps ARE doing it through tourism. We don't like some of the methods of some of the camps though. How do you propose we keep these elephants alive? Someone suggested 'regulation.' Great idea, but we've all seen 'regulation' as applied to Thailand driving... Just not happening, and driving is a vitally important item in this country. Any other suggestions?

[thaibeachlovers]

If you want to see elephants then best place is the Elephant Conservation Centre near Lampang, a Royal sponsored project. A magnificent park with expert handlers and vets who do a great job with abandoned and injured elephants.

I have been twice. The second time was to see if the conditions /treatment seen on my first visit, was a one off bad day. It wasn't. I was not impressed in the least. I must admit, they have good P. R. though.

I did view them in their natural habitat in the Tsavo National Park outside Mombasa Kenya. Magnificent experience.

I have to agree with you. The most "flash" thing about the place was the fancy entrance sign and the new ?conference centre. Still, if the elephants can't be there, they'd have to be put down.

I am surprised the elephant in question still has it's tusks though. As proven they are lethal on an angry animal.

Silly comment. Why not cut off the trunks and feet while you are at it. Elephants can do marvelous and imaginative things with those five appendages to people if they get in a bad mood.

You could say the same about dehorning bulls. If one of them attacks you it doesn't need its horns to kill you, but it increases the chances you might survive.

[Nemesis7]

horrific experience for these tourists i guess

[tuanku]

My condolences to the family of the mahout. That's a rough way to die.

But let's look at this 'exploitation,' 'greed,' and the idea of freeing the elephants to roam around Thailand....

Chiangmai331, are you going to give up your home so the elephants can roam freely? Do you suppose your neighbors will? After all, the land your homes are built upon were once jungle that supported the wild elephant population. Perhaps we can bulldoze down all the moobans that now line the various Ring Roads, raze the shopping malls and re-plant grass lands so the elephants can feed in their natural habitats once more. Hell, we don't need highways or even dual-carriageways, so lets rip them up as well. After all, elephants aren't going to obey stop lights for safe crossing... Are you beginning to see some problems with just letting the elephants run freely?

Kannikapor88, will you please pay the veterinary bills for the elephants? Elephants don't need more than a few dollars a day for food, so could you please pay for that as well... of course multiplied by several hundred elephants currently residing in Elephant Camps. After all, if the tourists aren't paying money (which buys the elephant's food and pays veterinary bills,) someone certainly has to. As we've already seen, thanks to the urbanization of Thailand, there is just no place that can naturally support these several hundred elephants in the wild.

Back in the day, elephants used to earn their own wages in the timber industry. Animal activists decided that this was cruel, and managed to get it stopped. Somehow it's fine for a water buffalo to drag a plow all day, or an Ox to drag a cart, but cruel for an elephant to drag a tree... OK... I don't need to understand the logic, but I can certainly understand the results. Someone has to pay to feed the elephants. It's rather like the Pro-Life people saying 'we have a duty to save the unborn babies, but no obligation to feed them after they are born...'

Someone has to pay. For food. For medical care. For space. Elephants can't take care of themselves any more because of what WE did to their habitat. So who do you suggest pays now?

This is an ignorant and ill informed comment, but you are right about one thing - the elephants cannot be released into the "wild". There is not enough space for them and they do not have the skills to make it as wild elephants anyway, having been kept in captivity. However keeping elephants in camps and elephant related tourism does not have to be cruel and exploitative. There are several good models to follow. Unfortunately the bad examples not only outnumber the good but they make much more profit. The real answer is to regulate this industry with the welfare of the animals in mind. Not likely in the immediate future, although opinions are very slowly changing. Incidents like this show the need for proper training and licencing of mahouts. This elephant will have been known to be potentially dangerous by the people running the business but the decision was made to switch mahouts and try to keep using him anyway. (an elephant costs roughly the same as a new car around 700K Baht) The elephant is just as much a victim as anyone in this story.

29 people (so far) thought otherwise when I posted this, so perhaps you can tell us which part was an 'ignorant and ill informed comment.'

You seemed to agree with my entire post, just added a bit to it.

While you're at it, perhaps you can tell us who you were before you added 'Tuanku' to your list of screen names... Having only a few posts to your credit is somewhat suspicious.

Folkguitar, my apologies; obviously "Perhaps we can bulldoze down all the moobans that now line the various Ring Roads, raze the shopping malls and re-plant grass lands so the elephants can feed in their natural habitats once more. Hell, we don't need highways or even dual-carriageways, so lets rip them up as well. After all, elephants aren't going to obey stop lights for safe crossing... " is a perfectly rational and well informed suggestion. I am surprised the bulldozers aren't already on their way! By the way elephants have a sight range of only about 10-12 m so I doubt they would be good at recognising stop lights.

There are actually around 4000 domesticated elephants in Thailand, about twice as many as wild elephants. The problem with releasing them is that they are not equipped to survive in the wild, having mostly been born and raised in captivity. There is plenty of forest left - just look at Google earth N of Kanchanaburi and West of Suphanburi, 7 National Parks with about 5600 sq km of forest or Kaeng Krachan 2915 sq km, or Dong Payayen, 2165 sq. km. All of these with sub optimal elephant populations. No need to bulldoze any moobans or rip up highways. Unfortunately the elephants are not equipped to survive on their own any more.

And the idea that most elephant camps or even more ridiculous the logging industry (which was actually stopped to preserve the forests rather than save elephants from the brutal treatment they were subjected to) are humane places where the animals have access to vets and are well treated - it doesn't take much research to become informed about this kind of issue - you just need to be prepared to do it. You clearly haven't.

Sorry to disappoint you but after 20 years in Thailand, I have only recently found the time to read and respond to posts on TVF. Before the I was busy working - with elephant charities amongst other organisations. So the small number of posts is genuine. I am impressed by the high standard of logical argument found in these forums though and yours is a beauty!. Any More questions?

[FolkGuitar]

This is an ignorant and ill informed comment, but you are right about one thing - the elephants cannot be released into the "wild". There is not enough space for them and they do not have the skills to make it as wild elephants anyway, having been kept in captivity. However keeping elephants in camps and elephant related tourism does not have to be cruel and exploitative. There are several good models to follow. Unfortunately the bad examples not only outnumber the good but they make much more profit. The real answer is to regulate this industry with the welfare of the animals in mind. Not likely in the immediate future, although opinions are very slowly changing. Incidents like this show the need for proper training and licencing of mahouts. This elephant will have been known to be potentially dangerous by the people running the business but the decision was made to switch mahouts and try to keep using him anyway. (an elephant costs roughly the same as a new car around 700K Baht) The elephant is just as much a victim as anyone in this story.

29 people (so far) thought otherwise when I posted this, so perhaps you can tell us which part was an 'ignorant and ill informed comment.'

You seemed to agree with my entire post, just added a bit to it.

While you're at it, perhaps you can tell us who you were before you added 'Tuanku' to your list of screen names... Having only a few posts to your credit is somewhat suspicious.

Folkguitar, my apologies; obviously "Perhaps we can bulldoze down all the moobans that now line the various Ring Roads, raze the shopping malls and re-plant grass lands so the elephants can feed in their natural habitats once more. Hell, we don't need highways or even dual-carriageways, so lets rip them up as well. After all, elephants aren't going to obey stop lights for safe crossing... " is a perfectly rational and well informed suggestion.

... and you were unable to understand the sarcasm in that, right?

While there is quite a lot of jungle without towns and villages, there is very little that isn't impacted by human habitation, be it individual farms, roads, or other forms of encroachment. Elephants roaming though it would have great difficulty avoiding humans. And while they have been brought up in civilization, they have no difficulty what so ever in finding foods when allowed into the forests. The only predators that elephants face in Thailand is man. Allowed to roam in an area without humans, they would do just fine, even going so far as to find foods that they need for natural herbal cures for many problems. The chief problem that they can NOT overcome is humanity.

I'll have to ask you to forgive me if I don't believe that you aren't someone's sock puppet.

[landtrout]

This is a good news story. Sorry, but exploitation of endangered animals is wrong. The mahout got his just deserts for using his skills in an unethical manner. The Chinese family deserved to be frightened, for engaging in an activity which exploits the endangered animals and funds their further exploitation. I wish this story would just scare away other tourists, so this industry eventually disappears.

I love the TV members who sit behind a screen laminating tourists for this n that. If it was your family I'm sure the tone would change.

Yes it's wrong to exploit wild animals for profit but we don't live in perfect world do we.

I don't see the difference between sexpats or TV members marrying locals half their age. You exploit them they exploit you.

I don't think there aren't much industry where there isn't some kind of expolitation by one class over another.

Getting off my soap box now. Thank you for listening.

The screen that you're sitting behind must be a more recent model than the one I'm using.

Mine doesn't have the "laminate tourist" function.

[bongoz]

Well seeing the treatment these mahouts dish out with them revolting hooks they use, I'm on the Elephant's side.

Glad the family are safe mind you...Hopefully another nail in the coffin of this pointless 'trade'

The family are a major part of the problem - supply and demand...

If they had also been injured or killed it would put another nail in this despicable industry.

[cookee68]

One reson why i wont let my kids and family anywhere near an elephant, they can turn at any time, even when innocently just giving them food

[green job]

This is a good news story. ... The mahout got his just deserts for using his skills in an unethical manner.

Schadenfreude.

Of the highest order,may I add.

[green job]

The mahout must have known that the elephant was in musth, but decided that his fee was more important.

he paid with his life.

That sounds more like it.

[green job]

I entirely disagree with many comments. I think that many Thais do actually like elephants, or at least the idea of elephants; hence naming a beer after them!

Now that much of their habitat in LOS has been removed, there is a responsibility to look after elephants, but there must be a better way of ensuring that happens. Certainly bull elephants should not be used for rides if this practice cannot be stopped in the short term?

Are you for real??? Like Elephants!! they worship them. An Elephant has a very high status in Thailand, It is a Royal animal. Do you think we should stop

riding Horses?

There is once again,so much BS on TV

Seems that most are Elephants in the room

[papa al]

I'm surprised there aren't more stories like this. Wild animals should not be kept in captivity. They should be viewed with caution, but in their natural environment. No doubt, this was in the name of conservation. A euphemism for money making exploitation.

If you want to see elephants then best place is the Elephant Conservation Centre near Lampang, a Royal sponsored project. A magnificent park with expert handlers and vets who do a great job with abandoned and injured elephants.

I have been twice. The second time was to see if the conditions /treatment seen on my first visit, was a one off bad day. It wasn't. I was not impressed in the least. I must admit, they have good P. R. though.

I did view them in their natural habitat in the Tsavo National Park outside Mombasa Kenya. Magnificent experience.

African species not domesticated, except by Tarzan.

They kill people too.

[metisdead]

Off topic nonsense posts have been removed.

[tuanku]

This is an ignorant and ill informed comment, but you are right about one thing - the elephants cannot be released into the "wild". There is not enough space for them and they do not have the skills to make it as wild elephants anyway, having been kept in captivity. However keeping elephants in camps and elephant related tourism does not have to be cruel and exploitative. There are several good models to follow. Unfortunately the bad examples not only outnumber the good but they make much more profit. The real answer is to regulate this industry with the welfare of the animals in mind. Not likely in the immediate future, although opinions are very slowly changing. Incidents like this show the need for proper training and licencing of mahouts. This elephant will have been known to be potentially dangerous by the people running the business but the decision was made to switch mahouts and try to keep using him anyway. (an elephant costs roughly the same as a new car around 700K Baht) The elephant is just as much a victim as anyone in this story.

29 people (so far) thought otherwise when I posted this, so perhaps you can tell us which part was an 'ignorant and ill informed comment.'

You seemed to agree with my entire post, just added a bit to it.

While you're at it, perhaps you can tell us who you were before you added 'Tuanku' to your list of screen names... Having only a few posts to your credit is somewhat suspicious.

Folkguitar, my apologies; obviously "Perhaps we can bulldoze down all the moobans that now line the various Ring Roads, raze the shopping malls and re-plant grass lands so the elephants can feed in their natural habitats once more. Hell, we don't need highways or even dual-carriageways, so lets rip them up as well. After all, elephants aren't going to obey stop lights for safe crossing... " is a perfectly rational and well informed suggestion.

... and you were unable to understand the sarcasm in that, right?

While there is quite a lot of jungle without towns and villages, there is very little that isn't impacted by human habitation, be it individual farms, roads, or other forms of encroachment. Elephants roaming though it would have great difficulty avoiding humans. And while they have been brought up in civilization, they have no difficulty what so ever in finding foods when allowed into the forests. The only predators that elephants face in Thailand is man. Allowed to roam in an area without humans, they would do just fine, even going so far as to find foods that they need for natural herbal cures for many problems. The chief problem that they can NOT overcome is humanity.

I'll have to ask you to forgive me if I don't believe that you aren't someone's sock puppet.

Oh - I forgive you - but actually I am not...............

Elephants are social animals with family structures, matriarchs females and young - which are important to their survival in the wild. These cannot simply be created from a group of random unrelated animals. While some might survive, it would only be a tiny proportion of the total released and would effectively be the same as decimating the herd. It simply is not an option - and not because the forest doesn't exist - it does.

Keeping the awful elephant camps in their current form, pandering to the worst of animal exploitation for the benefit of other Asian tourists is hardly any better an option. Domesticated elephants deserve better than that.

Maybe I'm used to a more sophisticated level of sarcasm than your effort. Your comments just didn't seem a very effective way of making your point. Sorry if my response touched a nerve. I am happy to retract the ignorant bit if it helps.

[FolkGuitar]

29 people (so far) thought otherwise when I posted this, so perhaps you can tell us which part was an 'ignorant and ill informed comment.'

You seemed to agree with my entire post, just added a bit to it.

While you're at it, perhaps you can tell us who you were before you added 'Tuanku' to your list of screen names... Having only a few posts to your credit is somewhat suspicious.

Folkguitar, my apologies; obviously "Perhaps we can bulldoze down all the moobans that now line the various Ring Roads, raze the shopping malls and re-plant grass lands so the elephants can feed in their natural habitats once more. Hell, we don't need highways or even dual-carriageways, so lets rip them up as well. After all, elephants aren't going to obey stop lights for safe crossing... " is a perfectly rational and well informed suggestion.

... and you were unable to understand the sarcasm in that, right?

While there is quite a lot of jungle without towns and villages, there is very little that isn't impacted by human habitation, be it individual farms, roads, or other forms of encroachment. Elephants roaming though it would have great difficulty avoiding humans. And while they have been brought up in civilization, they have no difficulty what so ever in finding foods when allowed into the forests. The only predators that elephants face in Thailand is man. Allowed to roam in an area without humans, they would do just fine, even going so far as to find foods that they need for natural herbal cures for many problems. The chief problem that they can NOT overcome is humanity.

I'll have to ask you to forgive me if I don't believe that you aren't someone's sock puppet.

Oh - I forgive you - but actually I am not...............

Elephants are social animals with family structures, matriarchs females and young - which are important to their survival in the wild. These cannot simply be created from a group of random unrelated animals. While some might survive, it would only be a tiny proportion of the total released and would effectively be the same as decimating the herd. It simply is not an option - and not because the forest doesn't exist - it does.

Keeping the awful elephant camps in their current form, pandering to the worst of animal exploitation for the benefit of other Asian tourists is hardly any better an option. Domesticated elephants deserve better than that.

Maybe I'm used to a more sophisticated level of sarcasm than your effort. Your comments just didn't seem a very effective way of making your point. Sorry if my response touched a nerve. I am happy to retract the ignorant bit if it helps.

Actually, your comments didn't touch any nerves, just a bit of bewilderment. I believe it's called "Sarchasam." That's the gulf one falls into when one doesn't realize that a comment was sarcastic, then pretends to be 'more sophisticated' to waffle out of the embarrassment...

But your comments about elephant family groups is certainly correct, even if your resulting analysis misses the mark. The animals in the various sanctuaries are not family groups, but have managed to bond together into cohesive herds. While there would certainly be 'some' loss, it wouldn't come close to decimation. Those that remained would be the Darwinian evolutionary victors leading to a stronger, healthier herd.

And at the very worst, and just for a hypothetical situation, let's imagine 'decimation...' Let's imagine that 1,000 elephants were released into an area that could support them, but they (according to you) lack the skills and sociology to thrive and their numbers are decimated. That still leaves 900 elephants. 90% We don;t even do that well with Deer Herd Management in the New England States, where we have to cull the herds because of available food supplies. At least 15% of the herd dies off from starvation... If you like, I've some photos that I've taken when working with VT. Fish &Game doing Winter Kill Surveys. You crack open the Femur bone of the dead deer and match the color of the marrow to a chart which gives you a reading of fat content in the marrow. Below a certain point, starvation death occurs. Sometimes you'll find 8-10 dead deer in a single feed lot... As I said, about 15% of the herd dies every winter. But if there is sufficient food for the rest of the herd, the females produce enough young to more than replenish the herd...with the key words being if there is sufficient food.

Elephants need sufficient food too. While it does exist in Thailand, there is way too much civilization that would clash with the herd's movements. Raiding farms would become commonplace, with the resulting negative behavior of the farmers. Car/elephant accidents would become as common as car/motorbike accidents. No... someone has to take care of the elephants in a controlled environment... unfortunately. And someone has to pay for that.

[roo860]

First let me apologize for my emotions It is sad that someone died by being gored to death

But in tragedy you can find laughter . For some reason I have this mental picture of the Elephant running amok in the jungle

with this Chinese family on its back

From a visual point of view Very funny

Pity there's not enough elephants in the world to stick the rest of the Chinese on so they can run off forever!!

[Johpa]

Many were shackled at the ankles. Why do this if there is no danger? I wonder what the Mahouts know .

They hobble the front legs of the elephants to prevent them from wondering too far away and into neighboring fields and gardens. The danger of not being hobbled is more to the elephants than to other humans. The elephants can survive quite easily on their own, contrary to just one of many misinformed opinions to be found on this thread. But again, there is just far too much human encroachment into forest lands for them to roam freely without upsetting some humans and the livelihoods of those humans. Worldwide, wild or free ranging animals that encroach upon a human's subsistence are universally dealt a hand of extreme prejudice, and not just in Thailand. Of course the current elephant population could be accommodated in park like settings if we were willing to significantly cull the herd now, and then again cull on a regular recurring basis thereafter.

[gigman]

Poor elephant. ..

He just had enough...

Chinese family never forget this ride. ...

I don't think they will try again to be masters...

[jacko45k]

No one appears to be asking why the elephant went berserk. In pain for some reason? Tired off carrying tourists around? Etc.etc? if yes then the mahout should be better equipped to recognise these things. Mal treatment? Hmmmm.

Well I just read in this very thread that it was because the beast saw another mahout, Lek,, who had previously abused him.

I was wondering if it was a male in musk but I believe females have also done this too.

That particular Chinese family got an elephant experience above and beyond the mundane.....

And similar to others I have seen how those hooks are used and the bloodied marks on elephants enough times, so struggle to sympathise with mahouts.

[3SoiDogNight]

Elephant Lives Matter!

[jinners]

Pure exploitation of elephants, nothing else, all in the name of greed ...

Elephants are endemic to T'land. Let them be free.

My condolences to the family of the mahout. That's a rough way to die.

But let's look at this 'exploitation,' 'greed,' and the idea of freeing the elephants to roam around Thailand....

Chiangmai331, are you going to give up your home so the elephants can roam freely? Do you suppose your neighbors will? After all, the land your homes are built upon were once jungle that supported the wild elephant population. Perhaps we can bulldoze down all the moobans that now line the various Ring Roads, raze the shopping malls and re-plant grass lands so the elephants can feed in their natural habitats once more. Hell, we don't need highways or even dual-carriageways, so lets rip them up as well. After all, elephants aren't going to obey stop lights for safe crossing... Are you beginning to see some problems with just letting the elephants run freely?

Kannikapor88, will you please pay the veterinary bills for the elephants? Elephants don't need more than a few dollars a day for food, so could you please pay for that as well... of course multiplied by several hundred elephants currently residing in Elephant Camps. After all, if the tourists aren't paying money (which buys the elephant's food and pays veterinary bills,) someone certainly has to. As we've already seen, thanks to the urbanization of Thailand, there is just no place that can naturally support these several hundred elephants in the wild.

Back in the day, elephants used to earn their own wages in the timber industry. Animal activists decided that this was cruel, and managed to get it stopped. Somehow it's fine for a water buffalo to drag a plow all day, or an Ox to drag a cart, but cruel for an elephant to drag a tree... OK... I don't need to understand the logic, but I can certainly understand the results. Someone has to pay to feed the elephants. It's rather like the Pro-Life people saying 'we have a duty to save the unborn babies, but no obligation to feed them after they are born...'

Someone has to pay. For food. For medical care. For space. Elephants can't take care of themselves any more because of what WE did to their habitat. So who do you suggest pays now?

Totally disagree ... just like with Zipliners its your opinion that its okay for thais to do anything to make Money no matter how dangerous it is to tourists ... Amazing Thailand indeed

I hope this story + video I saw on thai news this afternoon spread World wide - personally I will do it in my homecountry so less tourists will risk their life on these rides ...

Fine principles, yet you offer no solution for the questions asked?

[cumgranosalum]

Pure exploitation of elephants, nothing else, all in the name of greed ...

Elephants are endemic to T'land. Let them be free.

My condolences to the family of the mahout. That's a rough way to die.

But let's look at this 'exploitation,' 'greed,' and the idea of freeing the elephants to roam around Thailand....

Chiangmai331, are you going to give up your home so the elephants can roam freely? Do you suppose your neighbors will? After all, the land your homes are built upon were once jungle that supported the wild elephant population. Perhaps we can bulldoze down all the moobans that now line the various Ring Roads, raze the shopping malls and re-plant grass lands so the elephants can feed in their natural habitats once more. Hell, we don't need highways or even dual-carriageways, so lets rip them up as well. After all, elephants aren't going to obey stop lights for safe crossing... Are you beginning to see some problems with just letting the elephants run freely?

Kannikapor88, will you please pay the veterinary bills for the elephants? Elephants don't need more than a few dollars a day for food, so could you please pay for that as well... of course multiplied by several hundred elephants currently residing in Elephant Camps. After all, if the tourists aren't paying money (which buys the elephant's food and pays veterinary bills,) someone certainly has to. As we've already seen, thanks to the urbanization of Thailand, there is just no place that can naturally support these several hundred elephants in the wild.

Back in the day, elephants used to earn their own wages in the timber industry. Animal activists decided that this was cruel, and managed to get it stopped. Somehow it's fine for a water buffalo to drag a plow all day, or an Ox to drag a cart, but cruel for an elephant to drag a tree... OK... I don't need to understand the logic, but I can certainly understand the results. Someone has to pay to feed the elephants. It's rather like the Pro-Life people saying 'we have a duty to save the unborn babies, but no obligation to feed them after they are born...'

Someone has to pay. For food. For medical care. For space. Elephants can't take care of themselves any more because of what WE did to their habitat. So who do you suggest pays now?

FG - if you'd done just a little research into the issues surrounding the keeping of elephants in Thailand, you'd realise what an utterly facile post this is.

[thaibeachlovers]

Pure exploitation of elephants, nothing else, all in the name of greed ...

Elephants are endemic to T'land. Let them be free.

My condolences to the family of the mahout. That's a rough way to die.

But let's look at this 'exploitation,' 'greed,' and the idea of freeing the elephants to roam around Thailand....

Chiangmai331, are you going to give up your home so the elephants can roam freely? Do you suppose your neighbors will? After all, the land your homes are built upon were once jungle that supported the wild elephant population. Perhaps we can bulldoze down all the moobans that now line the various Ring Roads, raze the shopping malls and re-plant grass lands so the elephants can feed in their natural habitats once more. Hell, we don't need highways or even dual-carriageways, so lets rip them up as well. After all, elephants aren't going to obey stop lights for safe crossing... Are you beginning to see some problems with just letting the elephants run freely?

Kannikapor88, will you please pay the veterinary bills for the elephants? Elephants don't need more than a few dollars a day for food, so could you please pay for that as well... of course multiplied by several hundred elephants currently residing in Elephant Camps. After all, if the tourists aren't paying money (which buys the elephant's food and pays veterinary bills,) someone certainly has to. As we've already seen, thanks to the urbanization of Thailand, there is just no place that can naturally support these several hundred elephants in the wild.

Back in the day, elephants used to earn their own wages in the timber industry. Animal activists decided that this was cruel, and managed to get it stopped. Somehow it's fine for a water buffalo to drag a plow all day, or an Ox to drag a cart, but cruel for an elephant to drag a tree... OK... I don't need to understand the logic, but I can certainly understand the results. Someone has to pay to feed the elephants. It's rather like the Pro-Life people saying 'we have a duty to save the unborn babies, but no obligation to feed them after they are born...'

Someone has to pay. For food. For medical care. For space. Elephants can't take care of themselves any more because of what WE did to their habitat. So who do you suggest pays now?

Animal activists decided that this was cruel, and managed to get it stopped

Thanks for the laugh! You really need to find out why logging stopped, and it wasn't because of pro elephant activists, LOL.

[Aussie69]

Greed based exploitation exists in many forms and we are all guilty, if not directly, in some form.

The Thai handlers & tour companies do it to make a living.

I do it because I am too greedy to pay more for my iPhone and Nike shoes.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[cumgranosalum]

Greed based exploitation exists in many forms and we are all guilty, if not directly, in some form.

The Thai handlers & tour companies do it to make a living.

I do it because I am too greedy to pay more for my iPhone and Nike shoes.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

....and you feel that this comment in some way justifies the treatment of elephants in Thailand?

[cumgranosalum]

Pure exploitation of elephants, nothing else, all in the name of greed ...

Elephants are endemic to T'land. Let them be free.

My condolences to the family of the mahout. That's a rough way to die.

But let's look at this 'exploitation,' 'greed,' and the idea of freeing the elephants to roam around Thailand....

Chiangmai331, are you going to give up your home so the elephants can roam freely? Do you suppose your neighbors will? After all, the land your homes are built upon were once jungle that supported the wild elephant population. Perhaps we can bulldoze down all the moobans that now line the various Ring Roads, raze the shopping malls and re-plant grass lands so the elephants can feed in their natural habitats once more. Hell, we don't need highways or even dual-carriageways, so lets rip them up as well. After all, elephants aren't going to obey stop lights for safe crossing... Are you beginning to see some problems with just letting the elephants run freely?

Kannikapor88, will you please pay the veterinary bills for the elephants? Elephants don't need more than a few dollars a day for food, so could you please pay for that as well... of course multiplied by several hundred elephants currently residing in Elephant Camps. After all, if the tourists aren't paying money (which buys the elephant's food and pays veterinary bills,) someone certainly has to. As we've already seen, thanks to the urbanization of Thailand, there is just no place that can naturally support these several hundred elephants in the wild.

Back in the day, elephants used to earn their own wages in the timber industry. Animal activists decided that this was cruel, and managed to get it stopped. Somehow it's fine for a water buffalo to drag a plow all day, or an Ox to drag a cart, but cruel for an elephant to drag a tree... OK... I don't need to understand the logic, but I can certainly understand the results. Someone has to pay to feed the elephants. It's rather like the Pro-Life people saying 'we have a duty to save the unborn babies, but no obligation to feed them after they are born...'

Someone has to pay. For food. For medical care. For space. Elephants can't take care of themselves any more because of what WE did to their habitat. So who do you suggest pays now?

I'm astounded at the depth of ignorance of the topic expressed in this post - every pint you make is inaccurate or just downright wrong.

The most appalling thing is that you don't seem to realise that in order to post on a topic you need to know something about it- it is quite clear you have made no effort whatsoever to find out about the plight of elephants in Thailand at all.

Your first comment “the idea of freeing the elephants to roam around Thailand” - is tripe, no-one is suggesting this so debating it is pointless.

And further on you further underline your ignorance of the situation.....

“As we've already seen, thanks to the urbanization of Thailand, there is just no place that can naturally support these several hundred elephants in the wild.”

No we haven’t! This is a totally incorrect statement - you obviously haven’t done any research on this at all - you are just making assumptions thaqt you hope might support your fallacious arguments.

You seem to think that all over Thailand people will have to give up their land and there will be conflicts with elephants.

You obviously are unaware of the amount of land that is ALREADY available for both wild elephants and the potential for keeping captive elephants.

The problems facing elephants in Thailand are largely as a result of encroachment by humans who illegally make use of land they are not entitled to or invade elephants land for hunting and other commercial uses.

You also seem to be confused as to the difference between wild and captive elephants (I won’t use the word domesticated as it is misleading) Both categories have problems that need addressing in different ways - you don’t seem to appreciate this.

As for vet bills - are you serious??? - All countries have a duty to look after both captive and wild animals within their borders. The captive elephants were originally used in logging and have owners - these owners have a moral and even a minimum legal duty to look after them.

As captive elephants - contrary to what you seem to believe - can’t be released into the wild, they have to be looked after by their owners. Therefore it is the governments responsibility to ensure that the elephants’ owners look after them...failing this should result i prosecution.

You also seem to think that the common abuses of elephants are justifies as a way of raising money to look after them.

In fact it has been shown by various establishments both in Asia and Africa that it is not necessary to use exploitative methods to make money for the animals, that in reality the public are quite prepared in fact actually prefer to see elephants is as natural state as possible. So your premise that engaging elephants in is not the only way to finance them.

Then your post just goes from the sublime to the ridiculous..

“Back in the day, elephants used to earn their own wages in the timber industry. Animal activists decided that this was cruel, and managed to get it stopped

Where on earth di you get this idea from?? “Animal activists” - is this some secret society or a figment of your imagination.....what is certainly a figment is your ideas on why logging was stopped in Thailand. In fact logging was banned by the Thai government as a result of the effects of deforestation - notably flooding.

“Somehow it's fine for a water buffalo to drag a plow all day, or an Ox to drag a cart, but cruel for an elephant to drag a tree... OK... I don't need to understand the logic,”

This is none of the most facile comments you make - firstly as you don’t appear to understand either how domesticated animals are used in agriculture or how these conditions compared with the elephants used in the forests for logging. Anyhow as you make this to support a totally incorrect assumption about the ending of logging it needs to be dismissed on all counts.

Finally on your comment about new-born babies just seem top indicate that you are incapable of thinking rationally on any subject.......

[Ace of Pop]

I'm on the Bulls side re Bullfights ,those simpletons stabing an Animal is beyond my comprehension.ive often been tempted to whack the Elephant morons with their vile stick too.

[FolkGuitar]

I think the slip you made in your ver first sentence justifies your thinking.... Too many 'pints.' Go back and read what I wrote, not what you imagine I was 'thinking.,

[Aussie69]

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....and you feel that this comment in some way justifies the treatment of elephants in Thailand?

cumgranosalum. Of course my statement doesn't justify the treatment of the elephants, I hate cruelty to animals. Ive never taken part in those activities in Thailand because of this. I'm just saying it is easy for us to all take the high ground judging others in a world where many injustices occur that we all, through our purchasing decisions & lifestyles, turn a blind eye to. Anyhow this is a heavy discussion that could go deep and on forever.

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