So the British Embassy will not register our marriage... so what now?

[Ghostnigel]

I moved to Spain with my first thai wife, i didnt have the marriage registered. Then to the UK, but that was 10 years ago. Dunno if its changed since.

[beano2274]

am happy enough as I used the Freedom of Movement to get my wife to Germany, used a tourist visa for another Schengen country (Italy), plans changed due to work, she came here, went to the local authorities and got her Residence Card with a Thai Marriage Certificate translated into German and stamped by an authorised Translator of the German Embassy in Bangkok, and the MFA.

[nithisa78]

The good life certainly isn't easy. Or inexpensive. Could you get married in the UK?

When there was a snafu at USCIS, that was what we were going to do in USA, which turned out not to be necessary.

Best of luck and love. It will work out -love always finds a way.

[bobrussell]

You cannot get married a second time without divorce in between, even if it is to the same person!

The Thai marriage is legal (and binding!) so the UK authorities will not allow 're-marriage'. People really do get upset by this situation.

1) Don't blame the British Embassy. To certify something they must check its validity on an individual basis. They would need to be convinced that a Thai marriage certificate is genuine, that the couple were free to marry etc. This takes time and money that does not need to be spent.

2) Blame the Spanish and Italian authorities for creating rules that cannot legally be there.

[boldface]

British embassies have not stopped registering foreign marriages; because they never did it!

What has stopped is the facility to send your original foreign marriage certificate to the GRO in the UK for safe keeping via a British embassy. If you want to do this now you have to send it direct to the GRO yourself.

As an exorbitant fee was charged for the service, I fail to see how stopping it can be seen as a cost cutting measure. As I said above, the most likely reason for stopping it was because so few people used it. We didn't, and neither does any British/Thai couple we know.

Whether you used it or not made absolutely no difference the legality of a Thai marriage in the UK; under the Foreign Marriages Act 1892 (as amended) any marriage which is legal in the country where it took place is also legal in the UK.

Which is what the document I linked to earlier issued by the British embassy says.

All of which is irrelevant to this topic because the question isn't whether or not the UK recognises the marriage, which it does, but whether or not Italy does!

It appears from what has been posted above that it does (the Italian requirements for an Italian to marry outside of Italy are irrelevant; the OP is not Italian and even if he were, once the marriage has taken place Italy recognises it).

The freedom of movement directive says

Article 2

For the purposes of this Directive:

1. ‘Union citizen’ means any person having the nationality of a Member State;

2. ‘family member’ means:

(a) the spouse (of the Union citizen)

Article 3

1. This Directive shall apply to all Union citizens who move to or reside in a Member State other than that of which they are a national, and to their family members as defined in point 2 of Article 2 who accompany or join them.

Article 5

1. Without prejudice to the provisions on travel documents applicable to national border controls, Member States shall grant Union citizens leave to enter their territory with a valid identity card or passport and shall grant family members who are not nationals of a Member State leave to enter their territory with a valid passport.

No entry visa or equivalent formality may be imposed on Union citizens.

2. Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law. For the purposes of this Directive, possession of the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall exempt such family members from the visa requirement.

Member States shall grant such persons every facility to obtain the necessary visas. Such visas shall be issued free of charge as soon as possible and on the basis of an accelerated procedure.

(7by7 emphasis)

I'm no lawyer; but it seems to me that by insisting on a piece of paper which does not exist, the Italians (and Spanish) are at the very least in breach of the part I have highlighted!

All that should be required to satisfy the Italians, or any other EEA state, that a couple are married is their original marriage certificate with a suitable translation, which for the Schengen states needs to be certified/legalised by the Thai MFA.

Any state or embassy which demands more than this is in breach of the directive.

I suggest to the OP that rather than moaning here about the British embassy, who have absolutely no say in the matter, that if he cannot get satisfaction from the Italian embassy he complains to SOLVIT.

He can also seek assistance and advice from europa.eu/eurights

Members here have done both in the past and had positive results.

As for bringing UKVI into it; they have even less to do with this than the British embassy; and the British embassy have nothing to do with it at all!

Thanks for this. As I read it, it is only Spain and Italy that are doing this then?

All the other rubbish about UK consulate etc, I care not about. It is what it is, and they will not change. Just a lot of posters harping on about it, and stories of decades ago...

Anyway. Case closed. Cheers 7by7.

[boldface]

Oh and I just made the complaint on on Solvit as well. Very easy and straight forward.

[sandyf]

Deary me.

1 - We are married. The marriage is legal and recognised by the UK governement.

2 - Italy Law says it needs to be individually recognised as legal prior to being let in.

3 - UK consulate will not do this.

catch 22.

Why is this so hard for people to grasp?

1 - Legality will exist if marriage was in line with local law.

2 - Recognition exists if legality is established.

3 - Has never existed.

4 - Does not exist.

Comprehension can be difficult to exist.

[OJAS]

This isn't about Shengen or tourists visa. This is about moving to the country permanently. You would apply through VFS, and I apply directly to the Italian consulate. Completely different.

The common denominator is, of course, the non-registration of Thai marriage certificates by the British Embassy, as per the title which you have, in your infinite wisdom, chosen to give to this thread!

All that should be required to satisfy the Italians, or any other EEA state, that a couple are married is their original marriage certificate with a suitable translation, which for the Schengen states needs to be certified/legalised by the Thai MFA.

Does this MFA certification/legalisation requirement apply only in situations such as the OP's or to Schengen visa applications (including for short stays) as well?

Edited October 28, 2015 by OJAS

[boldface]

So I have sent an email to the consulates of all of Free Movement countries this morning asking for clarification of the requirements for this. WIll update when I get the replies.

[boldface]

This isn't about Shengen or tourists visa. This is about moving to the country permanently. You would apply through VFS, and I apply directly to the Italian consulate. Completely different.

The common denominator is, of course, the non-registration of Thai marriage certificates by the British Embassy, as per the title which you have, in your infinite wisdom, chosen to give to this thread!

Not at all. For a Schenghen visa, which after all can be applied for by a couple of Thais who would have no way at all of registering their marriage in a EU country, a Thai Marriage certificate is fine and dandy. Might need to be translates and certified by the MFA, but I highly doubt that they would ever put you through this rubbish for a tourist visa. . The emphasis is upon reason to return, and being able to look after yourself when you are there financially.

Edited October 28, 2015 by boldface

[theoldgit]

Further off topic posts removed, this thread is regarding Free movement within the EU and the problems UK Nationals face in getting EU Consulates complying with EU regulations, moving to the US is not an option.

[boldface]

From the Austrian Embassy

referring to your inquiry I can inform you that your wife can apply for a National visa D at the Embassy.

This visa is free of charge and valid up to 6 months. Please contact us for a convenient date for your appointment.

We will only need her passport, 2 passport photos, your marriage certificate and the so-called “Anmeldebescheinigung” of yourself.

https://www.help.gv.at/Portal.Node/hlpd/public/content/12/Seite.120225.html

https://www.help.gv.at/Portal.Node/hlpd/public/content/12/Seite.120810.html

Upon arrival in Austria your wife has to apply for a “Aufenthaltskarte” within 4 months.

Further information please visit http://www.migration.gv.at/en/types-of-immigration/mobility-of-union-citizens-and-their-family-members-within-the-eu.html

at “Family members from third countries”

Please be aware that many Thai documents, like Birth and Marriage Certificate or Police Report have to be legalized by the Thai Foreign Ministry and the Austrian Embassy.

I am querying what the “Anmeldebescheinigung” is - according to their website and the information he sent me, it is a something I obtain within 4 months of arriving in Austria stating my place of residence, and that I plan to stay long term.

[oncearugge]

From the Austrian Embassy

referring to your inquiry I can inform you that your wife can apply for a National visa D at the Embassy.

This visa is free of charge and valid up to 6 months. Please contact us for a convenient date for your appointment.

We will only need her passport, 2 passport photos, your marriage certificate and the so-called “Anmeldebescheinigung” of yourself.

https://www.help.gv.at/Portal.Node/hlpd/public/content/12/Seite.120225.html

https://www.help.gv.at/Portal.Node/hlpd/public/content/12/Seite.120810.html

Upon arrival in Austria your wife has to apply for a “Aufenthaltskarte” within 4 months.

Further information please visit http://www.migration.gv.at/en/types-of-immigration/mobility-of-union-citizens-and-their-family-members-within-the-eu.html

at “Family members from third countries”

Please be aware that many Thai documents, like Birth and Marriage Certificate or Police Report have to be legalized by the Thai Foreign Ministry and the Austrian Embassy.

I am querying what the “Anmeldebescheinigung” is - according to their website and the information he sent me, it is a something I obtain within 4 months of arriving in Austria stating my place of residence, and that I plan to stay long term.

https://www.wien.gv.at/amtshelfer/dokumente/aufenthalt/daueraufenthalt/bescheinigungen/anmeldebescheinigung.html

"Confirmation of registration and confirmation of permanent residence for EEA and Swiss nationals and their family members who are third-country nationals - application"

[boldface]

From the Austrian Embassy

referring to your inquiry I can inform you that your wife can apply for a National visa D at the Embassy.

This visa is free of charge and valid up to 6 months. Please contact us for a convenient date for your appointment.

We will only need her passport, 2 passport photos, your marriage certificate and the so-called “Anmeldebescheinigung” of yourself.

https://www.help.gv.at/Portal.Node/hlpd/public/content/12/Seite.120225.html

https://www.help.gv.at/Portal.Node/hlpd/public/content/12/Seite.120810.html

Upon arrival in Austria your wife has to apply for a “Aufenthaltskarte” within 4 months.

Further information please visit http://www.migration.gv.at/en/types-of-immigration/mobility-of-union-citizens-and-their-family-members-within-the-eu.html

at “Family members from third countries”

Please be aware that many Thai documents, like Birth and Marriage Certificate or Police Report have to be legalized by the Thai Foreign Ministry and the Austrian Embassy.

I am querying what the “Anmeldebescheinigung” is - according to their website and the information he sent me, it is a something I obtain within 4 months of arriving in Austria stating my place of residence, and that I plan to stay long term.

https://www.wien.gv.at/amtshelfer/dokumente/aufenthalt/daueraufenthalt/bescheinigungen/anmeldebescheinigung.html

"Confirmation of registration and confirmation of permanent residence for EEA and Swiss nationals and their family members who are third-country nationals - application"

Yup I know that. However, Austria law in the links I posted up as sent by the embassy say I need to apply for that within 4 months of being in the country. However, the email suggests that I need to apply for it BEFORE I enter which directly contravenes the freedom of movement directive.... hence why I am querying it.

[boldface]

Update. I do get the feeling that a trend is forming of countries kicking into Brits.

If I traveled to Austria myself, no “Anmeldebescheinigung” is required. For me to take my wife with me under the free movement directive, I need to have the “Anmeldebescheinigung” first. I stated this is contravention to the free movement directive, and he replied that "that is your interpretation of it" which I replied that really there is no other intepretation once could take - it is fairly clear and obvious.

To apply for this thing from abroad...

Submitting your application from abroad

Your place of residence determines at which Austrian diplomatic representation you may submit your application. Each applicant must appear in person at the Austrian diplomatic representation(e.g. embassy). They will forward the application to the competent authority in Austria.

If your application is approved, the competent authority in Austria will instruct the Austrian representation to issue an entry visa. The applicant must make a separate application for the entry visa within three months of notification by the Austrian representation.

This visa enables you to enter Austria, where you must collect your actual residence permit - e.g.limited leave to remain ("Aufenthaltsbewilligung") or indefinite leave to remain ("Niederlassungsbewilligung") - from the competent authority in Austria within six months of notification. In Vienna, the competent authority is Municipal Department 35 - Immigration and Citizenship (MA 35).

.... however, Roland Bauer Ast Vice Consul said I need to contact Vienna directly.

Looking into it, the whole process for this “Anmeldebescheinigung” is basically applying for a VISA for myself, an EU citizen, to move to an EU country. It is looking at employment, cash in the bank, health care etc and takes ages to do.

[micmichd]

And in any case, you have to show up in Europe personally, right?

My GF already has a Schengen visa for one year and a working permit for Benelux. The real problem will be me I guess.

I don't see any reason to look for a new flat in Europe, neither my GF/wife nor I want to stay for there a long time.

If I've got an "Abmeldebescheinigung" from Germany to Thailand as my only new residence and a Yellow Book for residence in Thailand, would that be enough to get married?

[boldface]

And in any case, you have to show up in Europe personally, right?

My GF already has a Schengen visa for one year and a working permit for Benelux. The real problem will be me I guess.

I don't see any reason to look for a new flat in Europe, neither my GF/wife nor I want to stay for there a long time.

If I've got an "Abmeldebescheinigung" from Germany to Thailand as my only new residence and a Yellow Book for residence in Thailand, would that be enough to get married?

Sorry, but I have no idea what you are talking about.

This thread is about an British EU citizen moving to another country in Europe that is not his country of origin, with his Thai wife, that were married in Thailand. Its not about schenghens, marriages, work permits or anything else.

[micmichd]

And in any case, you have to show up in Europe personally, right?

My GF already has a Schengen visa for one year and a working permit for Benelux. The real problem will be me I guess.

I don't see any reason to look for a new flat in Europe, neither my GF/wife nor I want to stay for there a long time.

If I've got an "Abmeldebescheinigung" from Germany to Thailand as my only new residence and a Yellow Book for residence in Thailand, would that be enough to get married?

Sorry, but I have no idea what you are talking about.

This thread is about an British EU citizen moving to another country in Europe that is not his country of origin, with his Thai wife, that were married in Thailand. Its not about schenghens, marriages, work permits or anything else.

Sorry, I'm not about to hijack this thread for my personal problems.

[boldface]

France

Visa type Long stay Travel purpose Family Member of EU Citizen Date of birth 18/11/1987 Nationality Thailand Occupation Employed Marital status Married

If your fingerprints were previously collected for the purpose of applying for a Schengen visa and a visa with the mention "VIS" has been granted, then a new fingerprints collection won’t be needed for your next visa application.
If your fingerprints have not been previously collected, so personal appearance is mandatory.
If your fingerprints have been previously collected and no Schengen visa has been granted, then your fingerprints will be collected once more.

1. Long stay visa application form (original)
   (Download)
2. Two recent, developed identity photos
   Size 3.5 cm x 4.5 cm, with white background, taken within the last 6 months.
3. Passport (original)
   (Passport expiration date must be 15 months after the day you plan to leave Thailand and must contain at least two blank pages to affix visa)
4. Passport (copy)
   (Copies of the passport pages having Schengen visas or stamps)
5. Old passports (original)
   (If you are in possession of one or more previous passports, it is mandatory to bring all of them)
6. Old passports (copy)
   (Copies of the passport identity and pages having Schengen visas or stamps)
7. Proof of residence in France of the European citizen
   (working certificate, house property license, etc.)
8. Proof of residence in France of the European citizen (copy)
9. Marriage certificate legalized by the embassy of the country of the spouse (if the marriage took place in Thailand), or by the competent authority of the country of the spouse (Original)
10. Marriage certificate legalized by the embassy of the country of the spouse (if the marriage took place in Thailand), or by the competent authority of the country of the spouse (Copy)
11. Marriage certificate legalized by the embassy of the country of the spouse (if the marriage took place in Thailand), or by the competent authority of the country of the spouse (Translation)
12. For a child: Foreign birth certificate, or birth certificate legalized by the embassy of the country of the spouse or by the competent authority of the country of the spouse (original)
13. For a child: Foreign birth certificate, or birth certificate legalized by the embassy of the country of the spouse or by the competent authority of the country of the spouse (copy)
14. For a child: Foreign birth certificate, or birth certificate legalized by the embassy of the country of the spouse or by the competent authority of the country of the spouse (translation in English or French)
15. Thai birth certificate (original)
16. Thai birth certificate (copy)
17. Thai birth certificate (translation in English or French)
18. Proof of any change of name or surname of the applicant and their parents (copy)
    if required)
19. Name change proof translation
    (if required, must be in French or in English)
20. Child custody decisions of Thai administrative (or death certificate of the other parent) (copy)
    (mandatory if only one parent is empowered with parental authority or death certificate of the other parent with translations)
21. Child custody decisions of Thai administrative (or death certificate of the other parent) translation
22. Parent authorization letter of the other parent, if both parents have custody authority (copy)
    (on a blank piece of paper and defining the person in charge of the child during the travel abroad)
23. Parent authorization of the other parent translation
    (in French or in English)
24. Identity document of other parent with signature (copy)
    if both parents have custody authority

Again, I have challenged this, as they say I must use TLS (like VFS), but TLS can not offer any visa for a spouse on Free Movement directive. Item 5 on the list above - go to France to seek work as is the Europeans right, so can not produce documentation of residence in France, job, etc.....

Solvit will be getting very bored of me soon....

What I am trying to do is to pin them all down to EXACTLY what documentation you need to bring with you to get your Visa for 90 days, which then once in, you can get residence card. Each so far seem straight forward but slip in something to mess it all up at the last minute.

Edited October 28, 2015 by boldface

[beano2274]

From the Austrian Embassy

referring to your inquiry I can inform you that your wife can apply for a National visa D at the Embassy.

This visa is free of charge and valid up to 6 months. Please contact us for a convenient date for your appointment.

We will only need her passport, 2 passport photos, your marriage certificate and the so-called “Anmeldebescheinigung” of yourself.

https://www.help.gv.at/Portal.Node/hlpd/public/content/12/Seite.120225.html

https://www.help.gv.at/Portal.Node/hlpd/public/content/12/Seite.120810.html

Upon arrival in Austria your wife has to apply for a “Aufenthaltskarte” within 4 months.

Further information please visit http://www.migration.gv.at/en/types-of-immigration/mobility-of-union-citizens-and-their-family-members-within-the-eu.html

at “Family members from third countries”

Please be aware that many Thai documents, like Birth and Marriage Certificate or Police Report have to be legalized by the Thai Foreign Ministry and the Austrian Embassy.

I am querying what the “Anmeldebescheinigung” is - according to their website and the information he sent me, it is a something I obtain within 4 months of arriving in Austria stating my place of residence, and that I plan to stay long term.

https://www.wien.gv.at/amtshelfer/dokumente/aufenthalt/daueraufenthalt/bescheinigungen/anmeldebescheinigung.html

"Confirmation of registration and confirmation of permanent residence for EEA and Swiss nationals and their family members who are third-country nationals - application"

Yup I know that. However, Austria law in the links I posted up as sent by the embassy say I need to apply for that within 4 months of being in the country. However, the email suggests that I need to apply for it BEFORE I enter which directly contravenes the freedom of movement directive.... hence why I am querying it.

It seems that the Austrian Embassy believe that your wife will be joining you and that you are already in Austria, as in Germany you have to register at the local Government office, you receive the Anmeldebescheingung, your wife would also need to do this upon arrival and with this Anmeldebescheinigung she can then go to the Auslanderamt and get her Residence Card.

Edited October 28, 2015 by beano2274

[beano2274]

you must be proving using your Freedom of Movement so I believe, you will find that you need to be in the country where you wish to bring your wife, and be registered before she can move to join you, this is the case with what the Austrian Embassy and what I know of the German Embassy are telling you.

Edited October 28, 2015 by beano2274

[micmichd]

you must be proving using your Freedom of Movement so I believe, you will find that you need to be in the country where you wish to bring your wife, and be registered before she can move to join you, this is the case with what the Austrian Embassy and what I know of the German Embassy are telling you.

This is getting philosophical.

None of us (neither my lady nor me) want to settle in Europe, we just want the money from Germany. Because this is what I worked for.

[boldface]

rte” within 4 months.

Further information please visit http://www.migration.gv.at/en/types-of-immigration/mobility-of-union-citizens-and-their-family-members-within-the-eu.html

at “Family members from third countries”

Please be aware that many Thai documents, like Birth and Marriage Certificate or Police Report have to be legalized by the Thai Foreign Ministry and the Austrian Embassy.

I am querying what the “Anmeldebescheinigung” is - according to their website and the information he sent me, it is a something I obtain within 4 months of arriving in Austria stating my place of residence, and that I plan to stay long term.

https://www.wien.gv.at/amtshelfer/dokumente/aufenthalt/daueraufenthalt/bescheinigungen/anmeldebescheinigung.html

"Confirmation of registration and confirmation of permanent residence for EEA and Swiss nationals and their family members who are third-country nationals - application"

Yup I know that. However, Austria law in the links I posted up as sent by the embassy say I need to apply for that within 4 months of being in the country. However, the email suggests that I need to apply for it BEFORE I enter which directly contravenes the freedom of movement directive.... hence why I am querying it.

It seems that the Austrian Embassy believe that your wife will be joining you and that you are already in Austria, as in Germany you have to register at the local Government office, you receive the Anmeldebescheingung, your wife would also need to do this upon arrival and with this Anmeldebescheinigung she can then go to the Auslanderamt and get her Residence Card.

\

No they don't. I made it VERY clear in my email to them that we are both here with the complete scenario.

[boldface]

From Sweden

Your wife needs to obtain a Schengen-visa for entry to Sweden. As wife of a EU-citizen she is entitled to such a visa free of charge and with a minimum of fuss. She needs to fill in and sign the attached visa application form and submit it to the Section for Visa-and Migration Affairs at the Embassy of Sweden in Bangkok together with her passport, your marriage certificate and some proof that she will travel to Sweden together with you or to meet up with you in Sweden. After arrival in Sweden you need to register your right to abode in Sweden with the Swedish Migration Agency and your wife needs to apply for residence card with the same agency. Please see attached links below for more information.

http://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/EU-citizens-and-long-term-residents.html

http://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/EU-citizens-and-long-term-residents/Work-study-or-live-in-Sweden-for-EU-citizens/Residence-cards-for-family-who-are-non-EU-citizens.html

Bingo - The very first that is actually applying the Freedom of Movement directive as it actually is, rather than trying to stop people move there.

[boldface]

Dear MOD - I will keep updating this with every response I get as this will doubtless be useful to other people looking to move to Europe, or to try they Surinder Singh route to the UK. However, it might also be a good idea to remove a lot of the nonsense posts in here not at all related to the thread or other posts which are sidetracking / not related / nonsense.

Posts such as this

you must be proving using your Freedom of Movement so I believe, you will find that you need to be in the country where you wish to bring your wife, and be registered before she can move to join you, this is the case with what the Austrian Embassy and what I know of the German Embassy are telling you.

Because no! I am completely in my right as a European to move to any EC Free Movement country to look for work, and my wife can go with me. I do not have to be living their already. It has been explained to you about 20 times now!

Edited October 28, 2015 by boldface

[beano2274]

Dear MOD - I will keep updating this with every response I get as this will doubtless be useful to other people looking to move to Europe, or to try they Surinder Singh route to the UK. However, it might also be a good idea to remove a lot of the nonsense posts in here not at all related to the thread or other posts which are sidetracking / not related / nonsense.

Posts such as this

you must be proving using your Freedom of Movement so I believe, you will find that you need to be in the country where you wish to bring your wife, and be registered before she can move to join you, this is the case with what the Austrian Embassy and what I know of the German Embassy are telling you.

Because no! I am completely in my right as a European to move to any EC Free Movement country to look for work, and my wife can go with me. I do not have to be living their already. It has been explained to you about 20 times now!

have you achieved getting to use the EU FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT, no you haven't, have I? Oh Yes I have......work that one out.

[micmichd]

Freedom of Movement is not restricted to EU afaik.

[beano2274]

If you come looking for work in another EU country, then you must prove that you have enough money to support yourself and your wife and in some countries you will have to prove that you have a recognized health insurance for that country, for both of you.

And according to the Germans you must prove that you are using your Freedom of Movement before they will issue your wife anything.

This used to be posted on their Embassies website.

[micmichd]

Sorry, I have already worked for my pension which is now my property according to German constitution. Guess it's not legal to make it conditional, on having to move to EU or something like that. I moved to Thailand, and I took my property and constitutional rights with me. Period.

[boldface]

WTH has any of the last three posts got to do with the topic at hand??????

Bored of this now. Bye bye