New Brexit polls suggest shift in favour of leaving the EU

[nontabury]

sterlings down around 2% to the baht over the last week.

I'm more interested to see what happens to the euro in relation to sterling if a Brexit happens

Hardly moved at all. Will it loose some ground between now and the referendum,that I would't be surprised at all. As it's in the interest of certain people/ governments to make sure it does. Then after the referendum,which ever side wins,watch it revert to market forces.

You already know that Sterling weakness is based on the fear of Brexit hence it would be expected to return to previous levels in the event Brexit doesn't win. Or are you just laying the ground work here for your eventual defeat and your cover story about how it was all a conspiracy, if so that's truly truly pathetic!

How do "certain people" do that NB, do they start selling loads and loads of Pounds so that it will weaken?

I think it is dangerous to look at exchange rate movements as a barometer of leave/remain.

The currency (and other) markets are awash with speculators and volatility/uncertainty is what they want to see. George Soros makes bugger all from a flat market.

Movements either way will be exacerbated by such actions and I think Nontabury is right in saying that it will take some time to return to 'normal' market forces. In the short-term it is likely to be exaggerated largely as a result of that speculation.

...based on the assumption that BREXIT implies a return to 'normal', which is the pie in the sky spin sold by the BREXITeers.

And the other side of the argument.

[Grouse]

John Major , a failed MP a failed politician , like Blair ,the more he tells us to stay the more i think we should leave .

So, just for our amusement, please tell us who you rate? Corbyn? Thatcher? Go on, give as a laugh! How many terms did Major win? Blair? Your criteria for success must be pretty demanding.

Oh! Wait a minute, they're both pro Remain! That's why they are failures ( unlike Redwood and Gove - he's a bit odd)

Both Blair nor major are fit to even wipe Thatchers bum , they are not good enough , i wont even bother listing what they did to Britain as we all know , so just keep on telling yourself how wonderful they were , but your in a very small club and it gets smaller as time goes on .

"Both Blair nor major"

Did what to Britain?

Thatcher destroyed British society and cut manufacturing from 25% of GDP to 10%

I did not say that either Major or Blair were wonderful. But they did less damage than Thatcher. (Who's dead, in case you hadn't noticed).

You sir, are so ignorant that you must be a Brexiteer!

Well if i am so ignorant ,i have lots of people just like me as i get lots of likes , funny ,not seen one like on any of your posts , you must be the only bright one in the village or maybe the only one in the village , and we all know what most villages have one of

I wish you lots of likes! There are indeed many like you!

Frankly I don't give a damn.

Oh but you do ,or you wouldnt be posting so often ,

Hilarious! You really don't get it do you?

I really don't care what your opinion is. Really!

I do care what happens though

It saddens and angers me that there are so many, uninformed, poorly educated fools holding fort. It's a kind of sick voyeurism really. I'm just aghast!

I'm 99% sure that you are an agent provocateur.

The rude, arrogant posts make no sense otherwise.

Kind thought!

But no, I really am that arrogant, that snobbish. Howevet, I am not a narcissist as one contributor had it. I don't have the legs for it!

Just between you and me I anger quite quickly. It's a VERY important decision. It won't affect me greatly, I'm 62 now and had a very fulfilling life. But the wrong decision could and probably will affect my greater family. I'm thinking about trans European career opportunities, the social justice of the EU and the peace we've enjoyed. I worry about trans Atlantic drift to American "values"

And then we have these startlingly stupid comments about John Major completely ignoring his excellent piece on Andrew Marr. I should keep my temper under control but sometimes let fly with both barrels! Sometimes, a bit of heat is a good thing in an empassioned debate don't you think?

Not everyone has your ability to weigh the pros and cons in a rational way. That's fine, but when they start to force their point of view from very insecure ground, I will push back ?

[Grouse]

Some should remember that the UK is only free because others came to their aid.

They couldn't do it alone then and they cannot do it alone now.

Now why are you and the remain camp so insistent on knocking the UK.

What's made you think this way?

image.jpeg

You see, Mr Dastardly, here we have a classic example.

A fool who has completely failed to analyse the situation and resorts to ridiculous (and often insulting pictures). I totally ignore this poster's ideas and opinions as being worthless. Arrogance on my part? Absolutely!

Edited June 7, 2016 by Grouse

[nontabury]

When the UK joined the EEC in 1973 they were already using VAT so it is not surprising the UK had fall in line. The EEC did not insist on VAT, the UK asked to join the EEC.

As for being unfair, that is a matter of opinion. There is no dispute the collection process is cumbersome but it was designed that way to reduce tax evasion. Sales tax is more open to abuse than VAT and should a post brexit government revert to a sales tax then it is highly likely that income tax would rise to offset the loss in revenue from tax evasion, that is what I would call unfair.

VAT is insisted upon by the EU, a state cannot be a member if they don't charge VAT (EU rules). They also set the parameters min /max of taxation to be charged. Not much loss in revenue because no EU membership will need to be paid, less spongers, less handouts, less freeloading in the medical system and the possibility of cheaper imports/ better exports (if anything can be found to actually export). Of course I agree that it's all an unknown quantity and perhaps it's the fear or uncertainty of the unknown that provokes so much thought and discussion on the brexit. For me though ... I can't leave quickly enough.

A distorted viewpoint obviously biased to your views on the EU.

Conditions of membership are exactly that, it doesn't matter which club you want to join.

It matters very much when the those conditions of membership are arbitrarily changed.

I know you understand this from your constant attacks on the authorities over UK pensions being frozen for expats - not something you signed up for when you started paying NIC's and something you had no voice in changing.

You are absolutely right. Why would anyone want to be at the mercy of the UK government that changes things on a whim.

The EU has done more for the British public than the UK ever did. EU funding may come at a cost but do you really think that same funding would come from the UK government voluntarily.

You forgot to mention the effects of the EU open border policy, when it effects those on the lower rungs of the ladder. Of course, and I don't necessarily include you Sandy, but some of those on the remain side think

" I'm alright Jack".

Edited June 7, 2016 by nontabury

[nontabury]

John Major , a failed MP a failed politician , like Blair ,the more he tells us to stay the more i think we should leave .

So, just for our amusement, please tell us who you rate? Corbyn? Thatcher? Go on, give as a laugh! How many terms did Major win? Blair? Your criteria for success must be pretty demanding.

Oh! Wait a minute, they're both pro Remain! That's why they are failures ( unlike Redwood and Gove - he's a bit odd)

Both Blair nor major are fit to even wipe Thatchers bum , they are not good enough , i wont even bother listing what they did to Britain as we all know , so just keep on telling yourself how wonderful they were , but your in a very small club and it gets smaller as time goes on .

"Both Blair nor major"

Did what to Britain?

Thatcher destroyed British society and cut manufacturing from 25% of GDP to 10%

I did not say that either Major or Blair were wonderful. But they did less damage than Thatcher. (Who's dead, in case you hadn't noticed).

You sir, are so ignorant that you must be a Brexiteer!

Well if i am so ignorant ,i have lots of people just like me as i get lots of likes , funny ,not seen one like on any of your posts , you must be the only bright one in the village or maybe the only one in the village , and we all know what most villages have one of

Brilliant. Although it does make me very angry to realise my hard earned taxes went towards paying for His superior education.

What a waste of money and resources!?

Edited June 7, 2016 by nontabury

[Rancid]

See though a few Remain politicians have admitted that even if Leave wins they may not pass it through parliament. Apparently many high paying cushy jobs in the EU await retired politicians, hmmm.

One way or another the establishment ain't leaving...but the illusion of democracy will be served.

[Mosha]

Much as I dislike the cost and corruption of the EU, I agree with Sandyf above - the EU has done far more for workers' rights than any Brit. govt. would ever have allowed, left to their own devices .

Tell that to the French strikers.

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk

[Caps]

John Major , a failed MP a failed politician , like Blair ,the more he tells us to stay the more i think we should leave .

So, just for our amusement, please tell us who you rate? Corbyn? Thatcher? Go on, give as a laugh! How many terms did Major win? Blair? Your criteria for success must be pretty demanding.

Oh! Wait a minute, they're both pro Remain! That's why they are failures ( unlike Redwood and Gove - he's a bit odd)

Both Blair nor major are fit to even wipe Thatchers bum , they are not good enough , i wont even bother listing what they did to Britain as we all know , so just keep on telling yourself how wonderful they were , but your in a very small club and it gets smaller as time goes on .

"Both Blair nor major"

Did what to Britain?

Thatcher destroyed British society and cut manufacturing from 25% of GDP to 10%

I did not say that either Major or Blair were wonderful. But they did less damage than Thatcher. (Who's dead, in case you hadn't noticed).

You sir, are so ignorant that you must be a Brexiteer!

Well if i am so ignorant ,i have lots of people just like me as i get lots of likes , funny ,not seen one like on any of your posts , you must be the only bright one in the village or maybe the only one in the village , and we all know what most villages have one of

I wish you lots of likes! There are indeed many like you!

Frankly I don't give a damn.

Oh but you do ,or you wouldnt be posting so often ,

Hilarious! You really don't get it do you?

I really don't care what your opinion is. Really!

I do care what happens though

It saddens and angers me that there are so many, uninformed, poorly educated fools holding fort. It's a kind of sick voyeurism really. I'm just aghast!

I'm 99% sure that you are an agent provocateur.

The rude, arrogant posts make no sense otherwise.

Kind thought!

But no, I really am that arrogant, that snobbish. Howevet, I am not a narcissist as one contributor had it. I don't have the legs for it!

Just between you and me I anger quite quickly. It's a VERY important decision. It won't affect me greatly, I'm 62 now and had a very fulfilling life. But the wrong decision could and probably will affect my greater family. I'm thinking about trans European career opportunities, the social justice of the EU and the peace we've enjoyed. I worry about trans Atlantic drift to American "values"

And then we have these startlingly stupid comments about John Major completely ignoring his excellent piece on Andrew Marr. I should keep my temper under control but sometimes let fly with both barrels! Sometimes, a bit of heat is a good thing in an empassioned debate don't you think?

Not everyone has your ability to weigh the pros and cons in a rational way. That's fine, but when they start to force their point of view from very insecure ground, I will push back ?

Just because it does not agree with your train of thought, it does not make people uneducated/stupid or whatever else you care to call people. People may not be as educated you but that should make no bit of difference...who are you to be-little them? At 62 you should know better. I used to work with people like yourself when I did my full service in the military. We called them officers.....educated idiots...not that I am saying you are one because I have no right to, just the same as you have no right. I have earned the right to vote which way I (as have others) like by defending my country and make sure " people who earn more that Cameron" can do so. I you dont like what people are saying then don't answer..I tried that with your posts, but getting fed up of seeing it now

Edited June 7, 2016 by Caps

[Mosha]

). They also set the parameters min /max of taxation to be charged. Not much loss in revenue because no EU membership will need to be paid, less spongers, less handouts, less freeloading in the medical system and the possibility of cheaper imports/ better exports (if anything can be found to actually export). Of course I agree that it's all an unknown quantity and perhaps it's the fear or uncertainty of the unknown that provokes so much thought and discussion on the brexit. For me though ... I can't leave quickly enough.

A distorted viewpoint obviously biased to your views on the EU.

Conditions of membership are exactly that, it doesn't matter which club you want to join.

It matters very much when the those conditions of membership are arbitrarily changed.

I know you understand this from your constant attacks on the authorities over UK pensions being frozen for expats - not something you signed up for when you started paying NIC's and something you had no voice in changing.

You are absolutely right. Why would anyone want to be at the mercy of the UK government that changes things on a whim.

The EU has done more for the British public than the UK ever did. EU funding may come at a cost but do you really think that same funding would come from the UK government voluntarily.

I would rather (albeit nervously) be at the mercy of a whimsical UK government than an undemocratic federal Europe.

Keep an eye on those bookies odds Sandy - they moving uncomfortably against Cameron and his propaganda machine:-

4]

Euro Referendum Betting

2/5

UK To Vote To Remain In The EU

2/1

UK To Vote To Leave The

I still think one side is going to deliver a real curved ball in the next couple of weeks that could be a vote swinger.

REMAIN certainly need to do more to convince the bookies.

Like this you mean?

https://www.rt.com/uk/345545-mps-majority--single-market/

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk

[dick dasterdly]

John Major , a failed MP a failed politician , like Blair ,the more he tells us to stay the more i think we should leave .

So, just for our amusement, please tell us who you rate? Corbyn? Thatcher? Go on, give as a laugh! How many terms did Major win? Blair? Your criteria for success must be pretty demanding.

Oh! Wait a minute, they're both pro Remain! That's why they are failures ( unlike Redwood and Gove - he's a bit odd)

Both Blair nor major are fit to even wipe Thatchers bum , they are not good enough , i wont even bother listing what they did to Britain as we all know , so just keep on telling yourself how wonderful they were , but your in a very small club and it gets smaller as time goes on .

"Both Blair nor major"

Did what to Britain?

Thatcher destroyed British society and cut manufacturing from 25% of GDP to 10%

I did not say that either Major or Blair were wonderful. But they did less damage than Thatcher. (Who's dead, in case you hadn't noticed).

You sir, are so ignorant that you must be a Brexiteer!

Well if i am so ignorant ,i have lots of people just like me as i get lots of likes , funny ,not seen one like on any of your posts , you must be the only bright one in the village or maybe the only one in the village , and we all know what most villages have one of

I wish you lots of likes! There are indeed many like you!

Frankly I don't give a damn.

Oh but you do ,or you wouldnt be posting so often ,

Hilarious! You really don't get it do you?

I really don't care what your opinion is. Really!

I do care what happens though

It saddens and angers me that there are so many, uninformed, poorly educated fools holding fort. It's a kind of sick voyeurism really. I'm just aghast!

I'm 99% sure that you are an agent provocateur.

The rude, arrogant posts make no sense otherwise.

Kind thought!

But no, I really am that arrogant, that snobbish. Howevet, I am not a narcissist as one contributor had it. I don't have the legs for it!

Just between you and me I anger quite quickly. It's a VERY important decision. It won't affect me greatly, I'm 62 now and had a very fulfilling life. But the wrong decision could and probably will affect my greater family. I'm thinking about trans European career opportunities, the social justice of the EU and the peace we've enjoyed. I worry about trans Atlantic drift to American "values"

And then we have these startlingly stupid comments about John Major completely ignoring his excellent piece on Andrew Marr. I should keep my temper under control but sometimes let fly with both barrels! Sometimes, a bit of heat is a good thing in an empassioned debate don't you think?

Not everyone has your ability to weigh the pros and cons in a rational way. That's fine, but when they start to force their point of view from very insecure ground, I will push back ?

As I said, an agent provocateur that is best ignored.

[nontabury]

Much as I dislike the cost and corruption of the EU, I agree with Sandyf above - the EU has done far more for workers' rights than any Brit. govt. would ever have allowed, left to their own devices .

Not quite so sure of that Dick, many of the problems in the UK can be directed at the governments of Tony WMD Blair and Gordon bigot Brown.

I keep reading that the leaders of the TUC are recommending the 6 million Union members to vote remain,yet today the leaders of 3 of the largest unions have come out saying Britexit is the best for their members. So who is right,well let's remember that both sets of leaders are only speaking for themselves. I used to be a member of a union,the same I suspect as yourself. For me I used to ignore their political utterances and think for myself.

If you want an alternative Labour viewpoint on the referendum can I recommend- www.labourleaves.org

[dick dasterdly]

Much as I dislike the cost and corruption of the EU, I agree with Sandyf above - the EU has done far more for workers' rights than any Brit. govt. would ever have allowed, left to their own devices .

Not quite so sure of that Dick, many of the problems in the UK can be directed at the governments of Tony WMD Blair and Gordon bigot Brown.

I keep reading that the leaders of the TUC are recommending the 6 million Union members to vote remain,yet today the leaders of 3 of the largest unions have come out saying Britexit is the best for their members. So who is right,well let's remember that both sets of leaders are only speaking for themselves. I used to be a member of a union,the same I suspect as yourself. For me I used to ignore their political utterances and think for myself.

If you want an alternative Labour viewpoint on the referendum can I recommend- www.labourleaves.org

I also learned v quickly that the union reps were only interested in their own level - not the poorer paid. I was actually told this (a few years later) by the union rep. when I had been promoted to his level . I have far worse examples as time went on .

Much as I came to dislike Blair, Thatcher was another politician that was only concerned for her own power/wealth etc - and much to my embarrassment I voted for her first time round as I thought she'd bring some much needed compassion into Brit. politics .

You are beginning to understand why I have no time for union reps/Brit. govt./EU govt. etc....

[Srikcir]

Of course there are those that think it has nothing to do with the rest of the world.

"In her speech the Fed chair said: "A UK vote to exit the European Union could have significant economic repercussions."

She stressed that investors' "appetite for risk" could change quickly and that a UK exit from the EU would be likely to affect market sentiment.

Ms Yellen's remarks echo comments from other economists about the impact of a Brexit on the US economy."

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36463819

Yellens seems to raise the specter of a double hit on the sterling if BritExit happens. One from the initial increase in investment risk in UK created by possibility of near term economic contraction and the other from capital flight to more stable economies like the USA. Even if UK is able within a year or two to stabilize economic growth (debatable), the sterling might be equally influenced by foreign currency markets than the UK can offset.

[dick dasterdly]

Plus, I have a horrible feeling that Brexit will result in Thatcherite policies renewed - and a mandate for these policies .

[dick dasterdly]

Of course there are those that think it has nothing to do with the rest of the world.

"In her speech the Fed chair said: "A UK vote to exit the European Union could have significant economic repercussions."

She stressed that investors' "appetite for risk" could change quickly and that a UK exit from the EU would be likely to affect market sentiment.

Ms Yellen's remarks echo comments from other economists about the impact of a Brexit on the US economy."

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36463819

Yellens seems to raise the specter of a double hit on the sterling if BritExit happens. One from the initial increase in investment risk in UK created by possibility of near term economic contraction and the other from capital flight to more stable economies like the USA. Even if UK is able within a year or two to stabilize economic growth (debatable), the sterling might be equally influenced by foreign currency markets than the UK can offset.

Always good to read another 'scare' opinion .

The EU needs to reform, but even Brexit is unlikely to force the required reform.

Its more likely to result in more capitalistic policies to encourage the UK to re-join, or the destruction of the EU as other countries demand the chance to vote out - blaming everything on immigrant polices, never the politicians/large companies greed. .

[sandyf]

A distorted viewpoint obviously biased to your views on the EU.

Conditions of membership are exactly that, it doesn't matter which club you want to join.

And your posts are not distorted by bias ?

Of course they are - mine certainly are.

It is pointless to any debate to simply accuse 'the other side' of bias - that is inherent in any discussion.

I can respect an opposing view when it is presented sensibly and rationally. Suggesting that Britain cannot stand its own (which it will not be doing anyway) without the EU is neither.

I am very happy to say that being part of the EEC has brought some benefits to the UK. It is not all negative. However, the club has changed, and the rules with it, making it a club I no longer wish to be a member of.

You are quite right, bias is human nature but there is a fine line between emphasis and distortion.

Conditions of membership are what they are, you accept them or you don't, no one is insisting anything.

If for example, you joined a golf club that was men only and then a few years down the road the committee voted to allow female members, something you objected to. You would be quite entitled to be outraged but you have to abide by the democracy of the committee so you are free to leave the club of your own volition. You would be well aware of the other clubs available, their membership policies and fees. In other words you would be possession of all facts necessary to make an informed decision.

Therein lies the problem with this referendum, no one has the facts pertaining to the cost of joining another club or membership policies. Unfortunately none of the campaigners will stick to the facts of the issue in hand and attempt to enlighten the general public, both sides of the fence try to push a hypothesis based on weak assumptions.

My views have not been influenced by anyone but based on real events, anyone that needs a reminder should read Brewsters post No 266. I should also point out that in 1990 I was responsible for implementing an EU directive that was introduced to try and prevent unnecessary deaths but at the time it was perceived as nothing more than interfering bureaucracy. You only have to see some of the threads on this forum to see how hypocritical some are, they criticise the Thais for what was common place in the UK a few years back.

Immigration is an important issue but at the end of the day it is all about money. World trade will in due course be controlled by large trading blocs. The ASEAN countries have taken this on board and are heading for their own single market. People should remember what happened to corner shops when supermarkets came along.

The UK public can vote to leave the EU and the government could choose to stop immigration completely, but without economic growth the NHS will still be under pressure and there will still be problems with housing,benefits,pensions and unemployment. It really is all about the financial well being of the country.

[dick dasterdly]

A distorted viewpoint obviously biased to your views on the EU.

Conditions of membership are exactly that, it doesn't matter which club you want to join.

And your posts are not distorted by bias ?

Of course they are - mine certainly are.

It is pointless to any debate to simply accuse 'the other side' of bias - that is inherent in any discussion.

I can respect an opposing view when it is presented sensibly and rationally. Suggesting that Britain cannot stand its own (which it will not be doing anyway) without the EU is neither.

I am very happy to say that being part of the EEC has brought some benefits to the UK. It is not all negative. However, the club has changed, and the rules with it, making it a club I no longer wish to be a member of.

You are quite right, bias is human nature but there is a fine line between emphasis and distortion.

Conditions of membership are what they are, you accept them or you don't, no one is insisting anything.

If for example, you joined a golf club that was men only and then a few years down the road the committee voted to allow female members, something you objected to. You would be quite entitled to be outraged but you have to abide by the democracy of the committee so you are free to leave the club of your own volition. You would be well aware of the other clubs available, their membership policies and fees. In other words you would be possession of all facts necessary to make an informed decision.

Therein lies the problem with this referendum, no one has the facts pertaining to the cost of joining another club or membership policies. Unfortunately none of the campaigners will stick to the facts of the issue in hand and attempt to enlighten the general public, both sides of the fence try to push a hypothesis based on weak assumptions.

My views have not been influenced by anyone but based on real events, anyone that needs a reminder should read Brewsters post No 266. I should also point out that in 1990 I was responsible for implementing an EU directive that was introduced to try and prevent unnecessary deaths but at the time it was perceived as nothing more than interfering bureaucracy. You only have to see some of the threads on this forum to see how hypocritical some are, they criticise the Thais for what was common place in the UK a few years back.

Immigration is an important issue but at the end of the day it is all about money. World trade will in due course be controlled by large trading blocs. The ASEAN countries have taken this on board and are heading for their own single market. People should remember what happened to corner shops when supermarkets came along.

The UK public can vote to leave the EU and the government could choose to stop immigration completely, but without economic growth the NHS will still be under pressure and there will still be problems with housing,benefits,pensions and unemployment. It really is all about the financial well being of the country.

Couldn't agree more about the emboldened part - its all about money, hence the vast majority of politicians (and their ilk) comments.

[chiang mai]

Of course there are those that think it has nothing to do with the rest of the world.

"In her speech the Fed chair said: "A UK vote to exit the European Union could have significant economic repercussions."

She stressed that investors' "appetite for risk" could change quickly and that a UK exit from the EU would be likely to affect market sentiment.

Ms Yellen's remarks echo comments from other economists about the impact of a Brexit on the US economy."

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36463819

Yellens seems to raise the specter of a double hit on the sterling if BritExit happens. One from the initial increase in investment risk in UK created by possibility of near term economic contraction and the other from capital flight to more stable economies like the USA. Even if UK is able within a year or two to stabilize economic growth (debatable), the sterling might be equally influenced by foreign currency markets than the UK can offset.

Always good to read another 'scare' opinion .

The EU needs to reform, but even Brexit is unlikely to force the required reform.

Its more likely to result in more capitalistic policies to encourage the UK to re-join, or the destruction of the EU as other countries demand the chance to vote out - blaming everything on immigrant polices, never the politicians/large companies greed. .

"Always good to read another 'scare' opinion" .

Out of curiosity, is there a reliable source, a person or an organisation that you think doesn't produce scare stories, one who when they make a press release you sit up and pay attention, believing it to be factual and true (apart from the offices of Gove and Johnson et al)? Thus far Team Brexit in this thread have trashed just about everyone and everything from the IMF, through the US Treasury, heads of various overseas governments, every newspaper and every poster who's ever pointed out Brexit negative aspects! Is there anyone?

[dick dasterdly]

Of course there are those that think it has nothing to do with the rest of the world.

"In her speech the Fed chair said: "A UK vote to exit the European Union could have significant economic repercussions."

She stressed that investors' "appetite for risk" could change quickly and that a UK exit from the EU would be likely to affect market sentiment.

Ms Yellen's remarks echo comments from other economists about the impact of a Brexit on the US economy."

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36463819

Yellens seems to raise the specter of a double hit on the sterling if BritExit happens. One from the initial increase in investment risk in UK created by possibility of near term economic contraction and the other from capital flight to more stable economies like the USA. Even if UK is able within a year or two to stabilize economic growth (debatable), the sterling might be equally influenced by foreign currency markets than the UK can offset.

Always good to read another 'scare' opinion .

The EU needs to reform, but even Brexit is unlikely to force the required reform.

Its more likely to result in more capitalistic policies to encourage the UK to re-join, or the destruction of the EU as other countries demand the chance to vote out - blaming everything on immigrant polices, never the politicians/large companies greed. .

"Always good to read another 'scare' opinion" .

Out of curiosity, is there a reliable source, a person or an organisation that you think doesn't produce scare stories, one who when they make a press release you sit up and pay attention, believing it to be factual and true (apart from the offices of Gove and Johnson et al)? Thus far Team Brexit in this thread have trashed just about everyone and everything from the IMF, through the US Treasury, heads of various overseas governments, every newspaper and every poster who's ever pointed out Brexit negative aspects! Is there anyone?

No. I rely on my own bullshit detector.

So far, my opinions have been pretty much right. But I hope I'm wrong in this case.

[chiang mai]

Always good to read another 'scare' opinion .

The EU needs to reform, but even Brexit is unlikely to force the required reform.

Its more likely to result in more capitalistic policies to encourage the UK to re-join, or the destruction of the EU as other countries demand the chance to vote out - blaming everything on immigrant polices, never the politicians/large companies greed. .

"Always good to read another 'scare' opinion" .

Out of curiosity, is there a reliable source, a person or an organisation that you think doesn't produce scare stories, one who when they make a press release you sit up and pay attention, believing it to be factual and true (apart from the offices of Gove and Johnson et al)? Thus far Team Brexit in this thread have trashed just about everyone and everything from the IMF, through the US Treasury, heads of various overseas governments, every newspaper and every poster who's ever pointed out Brexit negative aspects! Is there anyone?

No. I rely on my own bullshit detector.

So far, my opinions have been pretty much right. But I hope I'm wrong in this case.

And what does your detector say about the Economists for Brexit report, are the numbers right?

[billd766]

Sliced bread is an abomination. Should be illegal. Cameron should be publically flogged for putting the country at risk because of a few nasty party back benchers.

You freely admit voting UKIP. That rag tag bunch of xenophobic psychos? Poor you? Have you sought help? I guess it must be hard for you....

Xenophobics, next you'll be coming out with racist/ bigots. Well that's what those,who are loosing the argument resort to calling people. A question to you Grouse, one of the main concerns,which will certainly have a bearing on the result is open borders. Most of the population are against the present EU policy of facilitating the movement of economic migrants across the EU. Many of those future Economic migrants wish to enter the UK, including in these numbers are tens of thousands of Muslims who have no intention of integrating. What is your thoughts on this problem. And how will it influence your vote?

Well you asked for it

UKIP supporters are deeply unpleasant people. No humanity, no common decency. No place for such people in UK. Much same as National Front.

I may well be losing the argument to the seething masses of great unwashed, uneducated under classes. Fine you win.

I'm out.

May I suggest you snuggle up to the Americans?

BTW, try and get your facts right. Try and find out about refugees, asylum seekers, economic migrants, free movement of people, Schengen. You are so badly informed, it's just not amusing. I see Brexiteers much like the massed orks in the Lord of the Rings trilogy.

Finally, do me a favour and stay in England with your football, your dumbed down TV, your hip hop, your celebrity culture, your tattoos, your crap education, your lack of civil society. I will be elsewhere in Germany or Scandinavia.

Quote "UKIP supporters are deeply unpleasant people. No humanity, no common decency. No place for such people in UK. Much same as National Front."

You have just condemned over 4,000,000 British people without knowing any of them and they are from all walks of life, from young and old, male and female, all sorts of jobs.

Your arrogance and ignorance is showing yet again. Do you actually know ANY UKIP supporters personally?

I know quite a few personally from several walks of life, many of them professional engineers and senior managers.

[dick dasterdly]

Sliced bread is an abomination. Should be illegal. Cameron should be publically flogged for putting the country at risk because of a few nasty party back benchers.

You freely admit voting UKIP. That rag tag bunch of xenophobic psychos? Poor you? Have you sought help? I guess it must be hard for you....

Xenophobics, next you'll be coming out with racist/ bigots. Well that's what those,who are loosing the argument resort to calling people. A question to you Grouse, one of the main concerns,which will certainly have a bearing on the result is open borders. Most of the population are against the present EU policy of facilitating the movement of economic migrants across the EU. Many of those future Economic migrants wish to enter the UK, including in these numbers are tens of thousands of Muslims who have no intention of integrating. What is your thoughts on this problem. And how will it influence your vote?

Well you asked for it

UKIP supporters are deeply unpleasant people. No humanity, no common decency. No place for such people in UK. Much same as National Front.

I may well be losing the argument to the seething masses of great unwashed, uneducated under classes. Fine you win.

I'm out.

May I suggest you snuggle up to the Americans?

BTW, try and get your facts right. Try and find out about refugees, asylum seekers, economic migrants, free movement of people, Schengen. You are so badly informed, it's just not amusing. I see Brexiteers much like the massed orks in the Lord of the Rings trilogy.

Finally, do me a favour and stay in England with your football, your dumbed down TV, your hip hop, your celebrity culture, your tattoos, your crap education, your lack of civil society. I will be elsewhere in Germany or Scandinavia.

Quote "UKIP supporters are deeply unpleasant people. No humanity, no common decency. No place for such people in UK. Much same as National Front."

You have just condemned over 4,000,000 British people without knowing any of them and they are from all walks of life, from young and old, male and female, all sorts of jobs.

Your arrogance and ignorance is showing yet again. Do you actually know ANY UKIP supporters personally?

I know quite a few personally from several walks of life, many of them professional engineers and senior managers.

To be fair, he has a point about UKIP supporters - although its always possible that supporters haven't read the policies or haven't worked out that those policies are bad news for the average and poorer paid.

[billd766]

Some should remember that the UK is only free because others came to their aid.

They couldn't do it alone then and they cannot do it alone now.

Some should also remember that many of the countries in the EU were defeated by the German invasion and if it were not for the UK and the dominions may possibly have been in the position that they are in now with no say in anything.

I think that without the USA coming in when it did, nearly 3 years after the UK and the Dominions were fighting together, it would have taken much longer to achieve victory.

[Mosha]

Sliced bread is an abomination. Should be illegal. Cameron should be publically flogged for putting the country at risk because of a few nasty party back benchers.

You freely admit voting UKIP. That rag tag bunch of xenophobic psychos? Poor you? Have you sought help? I guess it must be hard for you....

Xenophobics, next you'll be coming out with racist/ bigots. Well that's what those,who are loosing the argument resort to calling people. A question to you Grouse, one of the main concerns,which will certainly have a bearing on the result is open borders. Most of the population are against the present EU policy of facilitating the movement of economic migrants across the EU. Many of those future Economic migrants wish to enter the UK, including in these numbers are tens of thousands of Muslims who have no intention of integrating. What is your thoughts on this problem. And how will it influence your vote?

Well you asked for it

UKIP supporters are deeply unpleasant people. No humanity, no common decency. No place for such people in UK. Much same as National Front.

I may well be losing the argument to the seething masses of great unwashed, uneducated under classes. Fine you win.

I'm out.

May I suggest you snuggle up to the Americans?

BTW, try and get your facts right. Try and find out about refugees, asylum seekers, economic migrants, free movement of people, Schengen. You are so badly informed, it's just not amusing. I see Brexiteers much like the massed orks in the Lord of the Rings trilogy.

Finally, do me a favour and stay in England with your football, your dumbed down TV, your hip hop, your celebrity culture, your tattoos, your crap education, your lack of civil society. I will be elsewhere in Germany or Scandinavia.

Quote "UKIP supporters are deeply unpleasant people. No humanity, no common decency. No place for such people in UK. Much same as National Front."

You have just condemned over 4,000,000 British people without knowing any of them and they are from all walks of life, from young and old, male and female, all sorts of jobs.

Your arrogance and ignorance is showing yet again. Do you actually know ANY UKIP supporters personally?

I know quite a few personally from several walks of life, many of them professional engineers and senior managers.

To be fair, he has a point about UKIP supporters - although its always possible that supporters haven't read the policies or haven't worked out that those policies are bad news for the average and poorer paid.

Given his posts on other topics, you'd be forgiven for thinking he'd like UKIP.

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk

[nontabury]

Much as I dislike the cost and corruption of the EU, I agree with Sandyf above - the EU has done far more for workers' rights than any Brit. govt. would ever have allowed, left to their own devices .

Mr Dastardly, for me, your key point is that you see this as a matter of BALANCE. There are pros and cons. I have noticed you weighing them. It doesn't matter so much which side gets your vote. The key thing is that you have considered the points carefully.

For me, I know there is a democratic deficit, there is huge wastage. I am also worried about the high number of migrants into the UK. But on BALANCE I consider it's still better to be inside the tent. The economic argument is unassailable. I'm also conscious of the historical contribution to European peace. If only more would weigh the pros and cons and not be swayed by sound bites!

OK, let's take up these points. You think for economic reason the UK should remain in the EU,that is your opinion and you are of course entitled to that opinion,many others think differently. Re democracy, it's good to know your concerns about the lack of democratic accountability within the EU,I'm sure most will agree with you. Regarding the EU open borders policy you seem to be rather vague,that is why in my post 247 I asked you to clarify you're thoughts on this problem. Still awaiting you're reply.

[Jip99]

A distorted viewpoint obviously biased to your views on the EU.

Conditions of membership are exactly that, it doesn't matter which club you want to join.

And your posts are not distorted by bias ?

Of course they are - mine certainly are.

It is pointless to any debate to simply accuse 'the other side' of bias - that is inherent in any discussion.

I can respect an opposing view when it is presented sensibly and rationally. Suggesting that Britain cannot stand its own (which it will not be doing anyway) without the EU is neither.

I am very happy to say that being part of the EEC has brought some benefits to the UK. It is not all negative. However, the club has changed, and the rules with it, making it a club I no longer wish to be a member of.

You are quite right, bias is human nature but there is a fine line between emphasis and distortion.

Conditions of membership are what they are, you accept them or you don't, no one is insisting anything.

If for example, you joined a golf club that was men only and then a few years down the road the committee voted to allow female members, something you objected to. You would be quite entitled to be outraged but you have to abide by the democracy of the committee so you are free to leave the club of your own volition. You would be well aware of the other clubs available, their membership policies and fees. In other words you would be possession of all facts necessary to make an informed decision.

Therein lies the problem with this referendum, no one has the facts pertaining to the cost of joining another club or membership policies. Unfortunately none of the campaigners will stick to the facts of the issue in hand and attempt to enlighten the general public, both sides of the fence try to push a hypothesis based on weak assumptions.

My views have not been influenced by anyone but based on real events, anyone that needs a reminder should read Brewsters post No 266. I should also point out that in 1990 I was responsible for implementing an EU directive that was introduced to try and prevent unnecessary deaths but at the time it was perceived as nothing more than interfering bureaucracy. You only have to see some of the threads on this forum to see how hypocritical some are, they criticise the Thais for what was common place in the UK a few years back.

Immigration is an important issue but at the end of the day it is all about money. World trade will in due course be controlled by large trading blocs. The ASEAN countries have taken this on board and are heading for their own single market. People should remember what happened to corner shops when supermarkets came along.

The UK public can vote to leave the EU and the government could choose to stop immigration completely, but without economic growth the NHS will still be under pressure and there will still be problems with housing,benefits,pensions and unemployment. It really is all about the financial well being of the country.

We agree on many things - that perhaps should not be such a surprise - especially your last sentence.

Where we maybe differ is on how we view the same things.

The golf club analogy is excellent. I would actually leave the club if I felt strongly enough about my principles. Only then would I look for a new club and where I could play my golf. If something is fundamentally wrong to me then I would step away first and look for solutions later. As much as I would like a gilt-edged soft landing with water-tight guarantees, I know this is not possible.

I don't actually agree about the large trading blocs and these often create more problems than they solve. Thailand's handling of the ASEAN 'integration' is a classic example. Trade is about supply and demand and if demand exists for supermarkets rather than corner shops then society will evolve. There will always be opportunities for those with a skill/product that can be delivered cost effectively backed up by quality service.

I may be a lone voice but I think the one opportunity we missed was to adopt the EURO. Not full monetary union, just the currency. That in itself would have helped tourism and trade with Europe.

[chiang mai]

And I'm still waiting to hear whether the Brexit numbers on the economy pass the meter/smell test.

[dick dasterdly]

Sliced bread is an abomination. Should be illegal. Cameron should be publically flogged for putting the country at risk because of a few nasty party back benchers.

You freely admit voting UKIP. That rag tag bunch of xenophobic psychos? Poor you? Have you sought help? I guess it must be hard for you....

Xenophobics, next you'll be coming out with racist/ bigots. Well that's what those,who are loosing the argument resort to calling people. A question to you Grouse, one of the main concerns,which will certainly have a bearing on the result is open borders. Most of the population are against the present EU policy of facilitating the movement of economic migrants across the EU. Many of those future Economic migrants wish to enter the UK, including in these numbers are tens of thousands of Muslims who have no intention of integrating. What is your thoughts on this problem. And how will it influence your vote?

Well you asked for it

UKIP supporters are deeply unpleasant people. No humanity, no common decency. No place for such people in UK. Much same as National Front.

I may well be losing the argument to the seething masses of great unwashed, uneducated under classes. Fine you win.

I'm out.

May I suggest you snuggle up to the Americans?

BTW, try and get your facts right. Try and find out about refugees, asylum seekers, economic migrants, free movement of people, Schengen. You are so badly informed, it's just not amusing. I see Brexiteers much like the massed orks in the Lord of the Rings trilogy.

Finally, do me a favour and stay in England with your football, your dumbed down TV, your hip hop, your celebrity culture, your tattoos, your crap education, your lack of civil society. I will be elsewhere in Germany or Scandinavia.

Quote "UKIP supporters are deeply unpleasant people. No humanity, no common decency. No place for such people in UK. Much same as National Front."

You have just condemned over 4,000,000 British people without knowing any of them and they are from all walks of life, from young and old, male and female, all sorts of jobs.

Your arrogance and ignorance is showing yet again. Do you actually know ANY UKIP supporters personally?

I know quite a few personally from several walks of life, many of them professional engineers and senior managers.

To be fair, he has a point about UKIP supporters - although its always possible that supporters haven't read the policies or haven't worked out that those policies are bad news for the average and poorer paid.

Given his posts on other topics, you'd be forgiven for thinking he'd like UKIP.

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk

Which is why I keep saying (but nobody takes me seriously) that he is TRYING to encourage Brexit votes. Nothing else explains the OTT arrogant, offensive comments!

[nontabury]

Sliced bread is an abomination. Should be illegal. Cameron should be publically flogged for putting the country at risk because of a few nasty party back benchers.

You freely admit voting UKIP. That rag tag bunch of xenophobic psychos? Poor you? Have you sought help? I guess it must be hard for you....

Xenophobics, next you'll be coming out with racist/ bigots. Well that's what those,who are loosing the argument resort to calling people. A question to you Grouse, one of the main concerns,which will certainly have a bearing on the result is open borders. Most of the population are against the present EU policy of facilitating the movement of economic migrants across the EU. Many of those future Economic migrants wish to enter the UK, including in these numbers are tens of thousands of Muslims who have no intention of integrating. What is your thoughts on this problem. And how will it influence your vote?

Well you asked for it

UKIP supporters are deeply unpleasant people. No humanity, no common decency. No place for such people in UK. Much same as National Front.

I may well be losing the argument to the seething masses of great unwashed, uneducated under classes. Fine you win.

I'm out.

May I suggest you snuggle up to the Americans?

BTW, try and get your facts right. Try and find out about refugees, asylum seekers, economic migrants, free movement of people, Schengen. You are so badly informed, it's just not amusing. I see Brexiteers much like the massed orks in the Lord of the Rings trilogy.

Finally, do me a favour and stay in England with your football, your dumbed down TV, your hip hop, your celebrity culture, your tattoos, your crap education, your lack of civil society. I will be elsewhere in Germany or Scandinavia.

Quote "UKIP supporters are deeply unpleasant people. No humanity, no common decency. No place for such people in UK. Much same as National Front."

You have just condemned over 4,000,000 British people without knowing any of them and they are from all walks of life, from young and old, male and female, all sorts of jobs.

Your arrogance and ignorance is showing yet again. Do you actually know ANY UKIP supporters personally?

I know quite a few personally from several walks of life, many of them professional engineers and senior managers.

To be fair, he has a point about UKIP supporters - although its always possible that supporters haven't read the policies or haven't worked out that those policies are bad news for the average and poorer paid.

Have you "personally" read the Actual policies of UKIP,or have you formed an opinion based on other peoples interpretation of these policies?

[Grouse]

John Major , a failed MP a failed politician , like Blair ,the more he tells us to stay the more i think we should leave .

So, just for our amusement, please tell us who you rate? Corbyn? Thatcher? Go on, give as a laugh! How many terms did Major win? Blair? Your criteria for success must be pretty demanding.

Oh! Wait a minute, they're both pro Remain! That's why they are failures ( unlike Redwood and Gove - he's a bit odd)

Both Blair nor major are fit to even wipe Thatchers bum , they are not good enough , i wont even bother listing what they did to Britain as we all know , so just keep on telling yourself how wonderful they were , but your in a very small club and it gets smaller as time goes on .

"Both Blair nor major"

Did what to Britain?

Thatcher destroyed British society and cut manufacturing from 25% of GDP to 10%

I did not say that either Major or Blair were wonderful. But they did less damage than Thatcher. (Who's dead, in case you hadn't noticed).

You sir, are so ignorant that you must be a Brexiteer!

Well if i am so ignorant ,i have lots of people just like me as i get lots of likes , funny ,not seen one like on any of your posts , you must be the only bright one in the village or maybe the only one in the village , and we all know what most villages have one of

Brilliant. Although it does make me very angry to realise my hard earned taxes went towards paying for His superior education.

What a waste of money and resources!?

Yes, brilliant indeed!

Such mordant humour. Caustic, acerbic, sardonic even! And the satire! I love satire! Nearly as good as Benny Hill!

But I digress

Yes I was fortunate to go up to university when only 4% of school leavers did so. All fees paid. And board & lodgings. Even beer money!

I revealed which university but I will not reveal which college. Semi-conductor physics. Six years including post grad! All free!

I then made chips for a living. Did reasonably well. Probably paid more taxes than the pair of you together if that makes you feel better.

Look, I know you have a chip on your shoulder (ha! Chip! An ASIC maybe?) but a university education is a great thing. Free in most of EU. And Scotland. And Wales.

Pity it was undermined by new labour trying to get young people off the unemployed list after the nasty party gutted most manufacturing. A first degree from a UK university is now not worth much. In fact, going back to Thatcher's bum, there's suitable paper for you!

So, be happy! Your taxes were not wasted after all! Actually, I'm probably older than you. I first went to university in 1972.....