To Chanote or not to Chanote!

[jmhogan]

Hi All

 

I am really trying to wrap my head around things here but when I ask most people I get no real answers.  Basically that is the way it is.  Stupid me for wanting to understand the system! 

 

I understand having a CHANOTE is the highest form of land ownership.

 

What I do not understand is why some properties have a Chanote and other DO NOT have a Chanote and others CANNOT.  

 

ALSO why can it take so long to get a Chanote?  We are cutting one Rai off a piece of land and we are told it will take a year to get the CHANOTE.  I think the lady at the land office saw me and when my wife would not bribe her was told it would take a year to get the Chanote.

 

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

[starky]

I cant answer all your questions but I know some. Some land is designated for agriculture and is bor kor? And sor por kor (i think 3 and 5) .Some of it over a period time through appeals to the land department can make its way through the stages and eventually become Chanote land. How long this takes is anyones guess and I imagine would take a bit of tea money. As for the reason you didnt get your Chanote, if its similar to my situation, is they need to send the surveyors out to check your land, measure the borders and make sure the deed is correct and not encroaching on someone elses land. Pretty common here. Unfortunately it seems the surveyors are always "busy" I was told 8-10 months but after asking if there was anything I could do and some artful negotation by the missus 7000 baht crossed the table and the surveyors were there the next day followed shortly after by the Chanote. Your biggest problem is convincing the missus to stop buying land as for some reason most Thais seem to believe no matter the type or location of the property every single rai you buy will eventually be worth millions and millions of baht hahaha :)

[473geo]

You will appreciate the land has to be check measured and charted, markers put in place, then the chanote drawn up. Have only experienced this with transferring land already under chanote so not sure of your situation, if the land is already chanote land you are splitting. If not I surmise could extend the process.

 

How ever in my experience there are several visits and of course the timing of the vists, and the completion of relevant documentation, is at the discretion of the officials.

[Rimmer]

Moved to Land ownership Forum

[blackcab]

"What I do not understand is why some properties have a Chanote and other DO NOT have a Chanote and others CANNOT".

 

In a perfect world all land would be chanote. To do this the surveyors need to visit every plot in the country and iron out any differences before they issue chanotes.

 

This is an ongoing process, and with huge parts of the country to visit in the smallest detail, this is why the job hasn't been accomplished yet.

 

In the meantime people are stuck with their previous land deeds until the upgrade takes place. That's the do nots covered.

 

The cannots are land owned by the government that is not meant to be sold back and forth on a commercial basis. Some land is meant for poor people to use for agriculture; some is protected forest land; some is land on a slope greater than 35 degrees; other is military land.

[sometimewoodworker]

There is also the situation that the land department will not process chanote upgrade applications for some period of time. In our area they were permitted for a few months but since then (3 or 4 years) they are not accepting upgrades.

 

FWIW - year to process is normal, it can be longer, and only if tea is involved is it very much shorter. 

 

[jmhogan]

Thank you all the info really helps. I was at a beautiful property today with a Chanote but no way in hell will they have proper roads for 5 to 10 years. As well no water or electric available but picturesque with mountain views. Blows my mind how this very rural property has a chanote. So much to learn!!

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[phantomfiddler]

Whatever way you look at it, having a full Chanote will make your land much more valuable, A no brainer ! I paid "the man" I think it was 1,500Bht to come out and do the survey, and it was not much later that the title deeds were obtained. Sometimes it is better to "do as the Romans do" and relax :)

[jmhogan]

Can someone get a chanote if they pay the man the tea money? I have someone wants to sell 14 rai no chanote wants 2mil per rai. Good paved road nice land and all that is there a way to get a chanote for the right price? To me 2mil per rai seems heavy without the possibility of a chanote but maybe others do not care??

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[Crossy]

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[khunPer]

19 hours ago, jmhogan said:

What I do not understand is why some properties have a Chanote and other DO NOT have a Chanote and others CANNOT.

Some land has been given by the government to farmers and can be restricted. My girlfriend's mum, and uncles and aunt, inherited two Nor Sor 3 title deed plots up Isaan some years ago, one inside a village, another outside, and wished both plots upgraded to Chanote title deeds, so they could sub-divide and share between the relatives. The one inside the village was no problem to upgrade, but the other was; after waiting long time (several years), they were told only a couple of month ago that they could neither upgrade from Nor Sor 3, nor sub-divide, as it was land given by government for farming, end even the deed title is Nor Sor 3, it can only be transferred in one relative's name.

 

19 hours ago, jmhogan said:

ALSO why can it take so long to get a Chanote?  We are cutting one Rai off a piece of land and we are told it will take a year to get the CHANOTE.

I have been trough the process of upgrading Nor Sor 3 title deed to Chanote title deed. The Land Office had a waiting time before they could send someone to measure the land; after that there was some public hearing period, where the change should be published at Head-of-Village's billboard; after that all neighbors should meet at same time to agree in the satelite measure of positions of border post and sign for it; then some quite long waiting time before Land Department could finish the case and issue a new title deed. All the time we (my girlfriend and I) had to show up at the Land Department regulary and ask about status, if we didn't do that, we could be considered passive, the case could being terminated without action. In all, it took more than two years; little longer than normal, as the plot in questions was beach front and also needed approval from Marine Department that "owns" the beaches of Thailand.

 

There are normally small differences in how one Land Office handle things, compared to how another does it; so because something is possible quick at one place, it may take long time at another place. 

[sometimewoodworker]

2 hours ago, jmhogan said:

Can someone get a chanote if they pay the man the tea money? I have someone wants to sell 14 rai no chanote wants 2mil per rai. Good paved road nice land and all that is there a way to get a chanote for the right price? To me 2mil per rai seems heavy without the possibility of a chanote but maybe others do not care??

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There is no definitive answer to that question as each land department has the decision, some will some won't, and the price could be OK, very good or bad depending on location. 

 

You you also need to be sure that it isn't in a national park as then it has no value as it can be confiscated (some has been)

Edited February 5, 2017 by sometimewoodworker

[Odin Norway]

2 hours ago, jmhogan said:

Can someone get a chanote if they pay the man the tea money? I have someone wants to sell 14 rai no chanote wants 2mil per rai. Good paved road nice land and all that is there a way to get a chanote for the right price? To me 2mil per rai seems heavy without the possibility of a chanote but maybe others do not care??

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Hard to say if the price is high or not ,whithout knowing where this is.Outside any city it sounds high to me.All papers can be bought for the right price.Its to figure out who the right person to pay, thats the hardest part.

[473geo]

5 hours ago, jmhogan said:

Can someone get a chanote if they pay the man the tea money? I have someone wants to sell 14 rai no chanote wants 2mil per rai. Good paved road nice land and all that is there a way to get a chanote for the right price? To me 2mil per rai seems heavy without the possibility of a chanote but maybe others do not care??

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I have heard of premium building land going for this sort of price, especially if there is good access and facilities are readily available. Must admit usually smaller lots than 14 rai.

 

Only on a personal note, I add, that no way would I support my wife buying non chanote land. Also take into account the chanote work does cost, and this is usually agreed between the buyer and seller as to who takes the chanote transfer cost. My understanding, usually the seller, but I think this is not set in stone and best agreed in advance. I think on our latest transaction we paid the chanote transfer cost but this was taken into account when the purchase price was agreed.

[jmhogan]

The land we did buy has Chanote or can once it is surveyed i guess we need to pony up to get it done i hate giving into the corruption as it only fuels the monster and lets it continue. I find it ridiculous people here especially Thais just expect it as a natural part of business but you either adapt or you become extinct

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[bbbbooboo]

hmmm.....yes payment of tea money definitely speeds up the process(as it does with most things in Thailand).....lol

[sometimewoodworker]

9 hours ago, jmhogan said:

The land we did buy has Chanote or can once it is surveyed i guess we need to pony up to get it done i hate giving into the corruption as it only fuels the monster and lets it continue. I find it ridiculous people here especially Thais just expect it as a natural part of business but you either adapt or you become extinct

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In your case there is no need to speed things up ("corruption" as you call it) all you have to do is wait the months or years and then pay the standard land office fee.

 

your choice 

[Odin Norway]

13 hours ago, jmhogan said:

The land we did buy has Chanote or can once it is surveyed i guess we need to pony up to get it done i hate giving into the corruption as it only fuels the monster and lets it continue. I find it ridiculous people here especially Thais just expect it as a natural part of business but you either adapt or you become extinct

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Totally  agree with you on the coruption part.Sometimes you just dont have the patience to wait for them in situasions like this.The only time in my building period I have paid under the table ,were this episode with the chanote and surveyers.No chance I would start doing anything before that was in place.The electric-company also tried to blackmail me,but going over their head to the main office fixed that easy.After living here for a few years now I just have my small pin-button camera on talking to different people, if I just want them to do their job.Strange how good service you can get,if they risk ending up on youtube.

[jmhogan]

Hahaha great idea on the camera

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[Odin Norway]

1 hour ago, jmhogan said:

Hahaha great idea on the camera

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A good friend of mine caught the nightwatch red-handed sleeping on the job on camera.Put it out on youtube and suddenly our power dont go out so often anymore.He also got a visit from main office in Bangkok and Sakon Nakhon where we live at his door.Asking him how they can be better at their service.So camera does work.The Nai ampur is totaly against coruption so if they say anything about money under the table on camera they are <deleted> more or less.We can not change the system but we can at least kick their ass to do their job.

[jmhogan]

I call it corruption because it is.  Anytime you have to pay to get better service it is corrupt.  When we renewed my visa in Cambodia the lady at the office told us that she did not think they would get my visa thru but 5000B would help make it happen.  FUNNY enough not 12 feet away there is a sign saying that BRIBES and BRIBING OF OFFICIALS will not be tolerated.  Coming back from Issan there is a sign I cannot remember the exact quote but it talks that Corruption is bad for the country.

 

ADAPT or DIE I suppose.  But the chain will never break if we do not say something and stand up for the wrong doings.

 

On a side note the police pulled us over to try and levy a 1000B fine on us.  When we refused they asked my wife "WELL WHAT DO YOU WANT TO PAY?"  ummmmm so if we did something wrong how is the fine negotiable?? 

We were on our way no bribe no fee paid.  

[KhaoYai]

On 2/5/2017 at 10:18 AM, khunPer said:

The one inside the village was no problem to upgrade, but the other was; after waiting long time (several years), they were told only a couple of month ago that they could neither upgrade from Nor Sor 3, nor sub-divide, as it was land given by government for farming, end even the deed title is Nor Sor 3, it can only be transferred in one relative's name.

Sounds to me as if the Nor Sor Saam in question may have been deemed as granted illegally.  My understanding of a Nor Sor Saam title is that all ownership and other rights are confirmed without restriction but the land is just waiting for the surveyors to measure the land and put the GPS markers in place. 

 

Similar explanations are all over the internet regarding Thai land law.  Was this land Nor Sor Saam or Nor Sor Saam Gor??

[khunPer]

2 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

Sounds to me as if the Nor Sor Saam in question may have been deemed as granted illegally.  My understanding of a Nor Sor Saam title is that all ownership and other rights are confirmed without restriction but the land is just waiting for the surveyors to measure the land and put the GPS markers in place. 

 

Similar explanations are all over the internet regarding Thai land law.  Was this land Nor Sor Saam or Nor Sor Saam Gor??

It was my girlfriend's great granddad's land, a Nor Sor 3 deed. He died over 100-years old more than 10-years ago. Four siblings, grandchildren, inherited the land and planned to divided it in four pieces, and temporary they transferred it in one's name, until upgraded and subdivide was in place; the even traded one of the sub-plots internally for Chanote-land market price, as one brother needed cash money. Only recently they were told that the land could not be upgraded and sub-divide, but only transferred into one relative's name.

 

Samui-for-Sale says in a Nor Sor 3 (Sarm) note...

Quote

A problem with the Nor Sor Saam title (as opposed to a Chanote or Nor Sor Saam Gor title) is that it is not true land ownership or confirmed right of possession but a right of possession over a land area without an accurate surveyed boundary which often lead to boundary disputes when transferring/selling or upgrading such land during the notice 30-day period and possible hostile possession over such land under the Civil and Commercial Code (book 4) - i.e. claims over the land by someone else not registered as the person who has the registered rights to the land.

–and for Nor Sor 2 (Song), they say...

Quote

The N.S.2 is a consent letter issued by the land department to the holder. This document entitles the holder to occupy and use the land for a temporary period of time. The holder has to commence occupation and using the N.S. 2 land within 6 months and has to complete the utilization of the land within 3 years from the receipt of N.S.2. This land may not be sold or transferred except by inheritance. Depending on the land’s location, this document may be upgraded to Nor.Sor. 3, Nor.Sor. 3 Gor or Nor. Sor. 4 Jor (Chanote), however, after the upgrade the prohibition for sale or transfer is still effective and in full force.

The complete list and notes for title deeds by Samui-for-Sale can be found here.

?

[KhaoYai]

Just goes to show, a lot of information out there can't be trusted.  I'd always been led to believe that Nor Sor Saam Gor was pretty safe.  I guess Chanotte is the only way to go in future.

Edited June 22, 2018 by KhaoYai

[sometimewoodworker]

33 minutes ago, khunPer said:

Only recently they were told that the land could not be upgraded and sub-divide, but only transferred into one relative's name

Sounds as if it is Sor Por Gor. 4-01 (S.P.G. 4-01) rather than any of the Nor Sor Saam (3) titles

[khunPer]

48 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Sounds as if it is Sor Por Gor. 4-01 (S.P.G. 4-01) rather than any of the Nor Sor Saam (3) titles

Did you read my post and the quotes..??

[khunPer]

1 hour ago, KhaoYai said:

Just goes to show, a lot of information out there can't be trusted.  I'd always been led to believe that Nor Sor Saam Gor was pretty safe.  I guess Chanotte is the only way to go in future.

You probably need a due diligence process, as even Chanute (Nor Sor 4 Jor) can be restricted, according to the information given by Samui-for-Sale...?

[KhaoYai]

54 minutes ago, khunPer said:

You probably need a due diligence process, as even Chanute (Nor Sor 4 Jor) can be restricted, according to the information given by Samui-for-Sale...?

All the more reason to use a reputable lawyer when buying property in Thailand.  I've known quite a few people buy without doing so because their wife told them there's no need to do so, "no need in Thailand".  At the very minimum take a Thai who's fluent in English with you to the Land Office and check the title.