Scotland's Sturgeon says: I can win an independence vote

[RuamRudy]

Here is an interesting article that might go some way to explaining the desire of Scots to try something different:

 

Scotland isn't different, it's Britain that's bizarre

 

"it's Britain that is the fourth most unequal developed country on earth, in which pay has in recent years fallen faster than in all but three EU countries, in which people work the third longest hours in Europe for the second lowest wages in the OECD despite having Europe's third highest housing costs, highest train fares and the second worst levels of fuel poverty. "

 

"Britain [...] has the least happy children in the developed world, the highest infant mortality rate in Western Europe and some of the worst child poverty in the industrialised world. It's British elderly people who are the fourth poorest pensioners in the EU. It's Britain which has the eighth biggest gender pay gap in Europe and child care costs much higher than most European countries."

 

[nontabury]

39 minutes ago, spiderorchid said:

Sturgeon is only interested in her personal outcome, she wants to upgrade her position to president.

As I see it, Scotland would have to apply for EU membership if it did get independence. This would take perhaps 5 years. The EU would have to consider Scotlands' ability to contribute to the Union as already the EU has so many failed states. I don't think it would pass any economic benefit test to EU. The current debate is costing UK millions, the whole idea is bordering on treasonous. 

In addition,Andy Wilson a former SNP MSP and Royal Bank of Scotland Economist has now come out and admitted that Alex Salmonds mislead the electorate in 2014. This relates to A.S. often stated view, that a seperated Scotland would not need the oil revenue to finance Scotland. However even in 2014 with the price of oil at $100, a seperated Scotland had a deficit. Furthermore this deficit has now grown larger than that of Greece. So I'm now wondering, which country, if not actually paying off this deficit, is at least financially supporting Scotland.

 

Edited March 15, 2017 by nontabury

[citybiker]

Whilst I don't want to suggest that anyone is blind to the fact that Scotland requires to restructure its finances and spending in a radical and, quite probably, painful manner, it is not correct to suggest that Professor McLaren, the author of the report in question, has no skin in the game.
 
On the positive side, figures out today show unemployment down in Scotland by 16,000 and our jobless rate is now comparable with the UK as a whole.

Genuine question:

And when does the SNP plan on following through on these radical and painful fiscal restructuring....Prior or post possible independence?

(Even the Tory led Government have admitted it'll take longer to balance the books, basic economists could have worked out that it would take 'at least' 2 Government periods to try and reduce the deficit.)

Stabilising Economic's in radical terms requires monetary easing (inflation fluctuations) and which part of the ongoing UK's £1.7trillion debt upon independence are they going to address to?


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[whatawonderfulday]

21 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Here is an interesting article that might go some way to explaining the desire of Scots to try something different:

 

Scotland isn't different, it's Britain that's bizarre

 

"it's Britain that is the fourth most unequal developed country on earth, in which pay has in recent years fallen faster than in all but three EU countries, in which people work the third longest hours in Europe for the second lowest wages in the OECD despite having Europe's third highest housing costs, highest train fares and the second worst levels of fuel poverty. "

 

"Britain [...] has the least happy children in the developed world, the highest infant mortality rate in Western Europe and some of the worst child poverty in the industrialised world. It's British elderly people who are the fourth poorest pensioners in the EU. It's Britain which has the eighth biggest gender pay gap in Europe and child care costs much higher than most European countries."

 

The problem with the nationalistic Scots is that they still think the Beano is real life, as  is this unreferenced rubbish.

[citybiker]

The Spanish have long memories of the Scottish referendum, and they're just one member apposed.

Why Spain will block any attempt by Scotland to join the EU - the guardian
https://apple.news/AHfzmPrygQJSQcZrMecmAMg


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[SheungWan]

8 hours ago, gummy said:

she is just like a rabid dog, except more ugly.  Bet she has hairy smelly armpits too

Just what we need. Thread contributors who compares women to dogs and who go round smelling their armpits as well. Charming.

Edited March 15, 2017 by SheungWan

[RuamRudy]

The Spanish have long memories of the Scottish referendum, and they're just one member apposed.

Why Spain will block any attempt by Scotland to join the EU - the guardian
https://apple.news/AHfzmPrygQJSQcZrMecmAMg


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Did you read the article? It is a clear example of the type of disingenuous reporting that dogged the last referendum, and also the Brexit debate.

Designed to influence the headline browser who fails to read the article, the expectation is that people will now think that EU membership for Scotland will be vetoed by Spain in any and all circumstances.

However in the opening paragraphs the truth is revealed, showing the headline to be sensationalist nonsense. As the article itself admits, Spain has stated that Scotland must secede from the UK in an internationally recognised manner and go through the formal process of applying for EU membership. Hardly news to anyone.

This is shamefully deceitful reporting. Expect much more of it in the coming months.

[NanLaew]

20 hours ago, Mosha said:

Good news is pro independence sentiment is up, but. ... 555

http://bbc.in/2msaCYH

There is a petition against a referendum and it has enough signatures to be discussed in Parliament.

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Meanwhile...

[whatawonderfulday]

7 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Meanwhile...

continue, meanwhile, back at the beach, SNP supporters have arrived

 

[RuamRudy]

9 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Meanwhile...

An interesting and mixed article. I particularly liked this chart, midway through.

[metisdead]

Some troll posts have been removed. 

[shunter]

Perhaps if one looked at the title of this thread as to who said what you may well find a revealing insight into an egotistical mind.

 

Sturgeon says, ''I can win an independence vote.'' 

 

Should that in truth read , ''We the Scottish people can win our independence vote.''.

 

Surely the issue is, or it should be about the Scots themselves, not one egotistical politician.

[whatawonderfulday]

5 minutes ago, shunter said:

Perhaps if one looked at the title of this thread as to who said what you may well find a revealing insight into an egotistical mind.

 

Sturgeon says, ''I can win an independence vote.'' 

 

Should that in truth read , ''We the Scottish people can win our independence vote.''.

 

Surely the issue is, or it should be about the Scots themselves, not one egotistical politician.

Never has been about the Scottish people in her mind, always been about her self importance. She is just using the Scottish people to further her own ends and many of them are either stupid enough, gullible enough or think they can turn the clock back 300 years, to consider supporting her, as is well illustrated by some posters on this forum.

Edited March 16, 2017 by whatawonderfulday

[SheungWan]

2 minutes ago, whatawonderfulday said:

Never has been about the Scottish people in her mind, always been about her self importance. She is just using the Scottish people to further her own ends and many of them are either stupid enough, gullible enough or think they can turn the clock back 300 years, to consider supporting her.

Turning back the clock is the Royal Prerogative of the Brexiteers.

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, shunter said:

Perhaps if one looked at the title of this thread as to who said what you may well find a revealing insight into an egotistical mind.

 

Sturgeon says, ''I can win an independence vote.'' 

 

Should that in truth read , ''We the Scottish people can win our independence vote.''.

 

Surely the issue is, or it should be about the Scots themselves, not one egotistical politician.

Well. as leader of the SNP, her party won 56 of the 59 Westminster seats in 2015. At the Holyrood election the following year, in a system deliberately contrived to prevent any one party from coming close to having a majority, they won 48.8% of the seats. She has shown strong leadership since assuming the role of First Minister, and she continues to do so. I appreciate that many people do not like her for very petty, peurile reasons, but really - is this what the whole debate has come down to?

[SheungWan]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

Well. as leader of the SNP, her party won 56 of the 59 Westminster seats in 2015. At the Holyrood election the following year, in a system deliberately contrived to prevent any one party from coming close to having a majority, they won 48.8% of the seats. She has shown strong leadership since assuming the role of First Minister, and she continues to do so. I appreciate that many people do not like her for very petty, peurile reasons, but really - is this what the whole debate has come down to?

'Shooting The Messenger' is the supreme modus operandi of the forum Brexiteer team. The bigger the threat, the harder the hit. What they might have in their mind's eye here is maybe similar treatment to that handed out to William Wallace at Smithfield.

[DILLIGAD]

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[nontabury]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

'Shooting The Messenger' is the supreme modus operandi of the forum Brexiteer team. The bigger the threat, the harder the hit. What they might have in their mind's eye here is maybe similar treatment to that handed out to William Wallace at Smithfield.

 

Is that at all relevant. The year is now 2017.

The U.K has been at war with Germany twice in the Last 100 yrs. But thankfully we are now friends,and therefore no need to keep harping on about it.

 

[gummy]

On Mon Mar 13 2017 at 7:36 PM, ddavidovsky said:

Someone tell this woman that she can't keep calling for referendums every few years.

If she says the goalposts have changed because of Brexit, well, Brexit hasn't happened yet. They should wait several years at least to gauge the effects of Brexit, then she might be able to say things have changed enough.

what  will happen if 1.  She does not get  support for a referendum 

 

or 2.  She does but UK goverment does not allow it

 

or 3.  there is another referendum which she subsequently loses

[rockingrobin]

8 minutes ago, gummy said:

what  will happen if 1.  She does not get  support for a referendum 

 

or 2.  She does but UK goverment does not allow it

 

or 3.  there is another referendum which she subsequently loses

Answers to 1 and 3 are obvious

On no.2, probably a court challenge to see if consulting the Scottish people is a reserved matter 

[evadgib]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Well. as leader of the SNP, her party won 56 of the 59 Westminster seats in 2015. At the Holyrood election the following year, in a system deliberately contrived to prevent any one party from coming close to having a majority, they won 48.8% of the seats. She has shown strong leadership since assuming the role of First Minister, and she continues to do so. I appreciate that many people do not like her for very petty, peurile reasons, but really - is this what the whole debate has come down to?

These threads lead me to suspect theres an element of 'Celtic v Rangers' involved too. Has any sectarian link been considered or is this just coincidence?

Edited March 16, 2017 by evadgib

[RuamRudy]

30 minutes ago, evadgib said:

These threads lead me to suspect theres an element of 'Celtic v Rangers' involved too. Has any sectarian link been considered or is this just coincidence?

Is there? I am not sure what gives you that impression, to be honest. The same issue was raised in a previous thread by an avowed unionist who got very upset when I made a gentle jibe about men in bowler hats and aprons, and who then got very confused when I revealed how, in my youth, I was an (unwilling) wee free attendee.

 

I read a thread on reddit.com/r/scotland last night about a lifelong Rangers fan who, when he revealed to his friends that he was a Yes supporter, was told that he should no longer buy an Ibrox season ticket or attend any games. Several other Rangers fans replied that they, too, had experienced similar reactions from other Rangers fans. As I don't follow football, I am not sure whether there is a similar but opposite sentiment amongst Celtic fans, but I hope that, regardless, these are merely annecdotal cases and do not point to something more endemic.

 

I don't want to spam the thread, but nobody has made a serious comment on what, I believe, is a far greater motivator for the desire for such fundamental change - the relentless drive of the Westminster government to hammer the working classes:

 

Scotland isn't different, it's Britain that's bizarre

 

"it's Britain that is the fourth most unequal developed country on earth, in which pay has in recent years fallen faster than in all but three EU countries, in which people work the third longest hours in Europe for the second lowest wages in the OECD despite having Europe's third highest housing costs, highest train fares and the second worst levels of fuel poverty. "

 

"Britain [...] has the least happy children in the developed world, the highest infant mortality rate in Western Europe and some of the worst child poverty in the industrialised world. It's British elderly people who are the fourth poorest pensioners in the EU. It's Britain which has the eighth biggest gender pay gap in Europe and child care costs much higher than most European countries."

Edited March 16, 2017 by RuamRudy
missed a dot com

[evadgib]

Stats re SNP MPs might be available via FoI request. They might prove useful to journalists etc.

Edited March 16, 2017 by evadgib

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, evadgib said:

Are figure known re SNP MPs? 

 

It might be something a journo could make use of.

SNP MPs' religious affiliations? I have no idea - there was one MP a couple of weeks ago who caused a stir because she turned up to a committee on Ash Wednesday with a cross on her forehead. As for others, I am not sure.

[RuamRudy]

I feel a bit like St Paul now, having just viewed this video and been convinced by the brotherly and fraternal words of my fellow countryman, warmly encouraging me to stay and build something that we can be jointly proud of.

 

I will share this with all my Yes leaning friends who will, no doubt, drop their foolish separatist notions and immediately pledge allegiance to the Union flag. I will also share it with my No leaning friends, who, I am certain, will look at me with avuncular ken, and ask why it took so long for the scales to fall from my eyes.

Better Together

 

WARNING: the language of brotherly love used is quite salty.

  (P.S. I know that he is not representative of most English people, but I wonder is he a TV poster...)

[evadgib]

Sun readers? We're fed up with them too :)

[nontabury]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

I feel a bit like St Paul now, having just viewed this video and been convinced by the brotherly and fraternal words of my fellow countryman, warmly encouraging me to stay and build something that we can be jointly proud of.

 

I will share this with all my Yes leaning friends who will, no doubt, drop their foolish separatist notions and immediately pledge allegiance to the Union flag. I will also share it with my No leaning friends, who, I am certain, will look at me with avuncular ken, and ask why it took so long for the scales to fall from my eyes.

Better Together

 

WARNING: the language of brotherly love used is quite salty.

  (P.S. I know that he is not representative of most English people, but I wonder is he a TV poster...)

Obviously well over the top. But what you should be asking yourselves, is why this man is so anti - Scottish? Up to about 20yrs ago,it was very rare to hear an English person speak badly about the Scots.Now that has completely changed.Who or what has destroyed this friendship. Could it be the rise of the SNP, and if so it would seem that the SNP has at least had some success.

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, nontabury said:

Obviously well over the top. But what you should be asking yourselves, is why this man is so anti - Scottish? Up to about 20yrs ago,it was very rare to hear an English person speak badly about the Scots.Now that has completely changed.Who or what has destroyed this friendship. Could it be the rise of the SNP, and if so it would seem that the SNP has at least had some success.

Your post reads like those awful stories of battered wives being asked to think about what it is they have done to upset their husbands so much.

Have you spent any time whatsoever trying to understand why almost half of the Scottish electorate wants to leave the UK?

[Basil B]

22 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Your post reads like those awful stories of battered wives being asked to think about what it is they have done to upset their husbands so much.

Have you spent any time whatsoever trying to understand why almost half of the Scottish electorate wants to leave the UK?

Have you considered why more than half want to stay... 

[Basil B]

If ...and  IF there is another referendum I hope lessons will be learned from the  the Brexit farce.

 

Clear exit plan and as rejoining the EU is Sturgeons election promise  (and I suspect she will renege on that by not accepting the terms offered), if Scotland fails to rejoin the EU within 5 years there should be another referendum giving the Scott's an option to rejoin the UK.