A fine old mess

[snowgard]

On 19.4.2017 at 11:04 PM, swissie said:

What if those scans would have shown a serious injury, that would have needed immediate treatment to save your live?

Not having health insurance and not having emergency funds to cover a hospital bill of US$ 1600 ? Hmmm.....
Another hospital-bill that will remain unpaid by a Farang?

Do you realise, that this is the reason that more and more Thai-Hospitals refuse treatment for Farangs, unless their ability to pay is established before they do ANYTHING AT ALL, even in an emergency?
Cheers.

Why they not choose to do xray for 300-1000 THB? So this a simple <deleted> up!!!

[NoshowJones]

2 minutes ago, kenk24 said:

Maybe if he were conscious, or left a contact number in case of accident, he would have been able to choose for himself... if it were me and I was found unconscious after an accident, I would have wanted Bumrungrad. For possibly saving his life, the charges don't sound that expensive to me... but, either way, you don't just walk out w/o paying anything... if he has a gripe about price, take it up with administration... ask for a discount & a payment plan... but for what they did to help him, why do they get nothing? He didn't even offer them what a cheap hospital would charge - just nothing... 

 

This and that he wanted to defraud an insurance company illustrate character. 

Yes, I have already said he should come to some arrangement to pay part of the fee, my big gripe about the whole thing is the people driving past government hospitals to get to Bumrungrad obviously so they will get more money, and although I have never dealt with them, I believe private hospitals are run like insurance companies and banks, with the attitude, get us much money from people as you can, capitalism at it's worst..

Why does a private hospital charge three or fours times as much as a pharmacist for the same medicine? It is just pure greed.

[NoshowJones]

2 hours ago, elgordo38 said:

I think he can get some accident insurance up to age 100 at Bangkok Bank. 

Are you serious? I was told it was sixty.

[NoshowJones]

2 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Mine is with Thai Health.  I got just a basic cover, which covers me to 300,000 total which is inadequate but better than nothing. At 55 it cost me 12000 baht.  In this instance they would have paid most I think.  For 80000 I could get something that mirrors NHS UK treatment plan.   There are also specific accident policies which are cheap.

 

No, they stop at around 70, which should be banned imo.  Personally, I am an advocate of universal health care for all since illness is largely random, often genetically determined, and it simply is beyond the means of poor people to adequately provide for themselves voluntarily from cradle to grave.

 

I think OP's complaint is not about paying as such, but being taken to the most expensive hospital.

 

 

That's the impression I got also.

[Thaidream]

I would agree that any attempt to backdate receipts etc is not the right thing to do. I have experience working for a large insurance company in the US and I can tell you they are not interested in their clients- only how many premiums they can collect and if there is a way to decline coverage. This was automobile insurance but all companies operate on the same premise.

I have know health insurance companies to issue payment and then hold the payments for up to a month before actually mailing it so as to work the money float. I have know health insurance companies to decline coverage knowing full well it should be covered.

I have no use for insurance companies and the problem with healthcare based on the American model is that it leads to absolute corruption of the system. And unfortunately private hospitals in Thailand follow that model- it is healthcare for profit and when that happens- the patient is further traumatized by the system,

I fully understand that hospital personnel; doctor; nurses; or technicians should be paid a wage equivalent to their training. However, people should be going into medicine to help save lives not for an economic reason. 

The only scheme in medicine that will ever work is to take the profit out of it. As long as insurance companies; Big Pharma and for profit medical institutions are allowed to exist- patients will be overcharged and sometimes receive treatment not needed. Much of the American public has been brainwashed and marketed to death by the insurance companies and Big Pharma and have come to believe that the European system of National Health doesn't work.  While it is not perfect- it does work and works well enough that the average person does not need to worry about basic medical and catastrophic care.

I really hope Thailand does not fully adopt the American system and goes more for the European of Japanes system. Capitalism does not work well with healthcare.

[chrissables]

6 hours ago, Xobtsiwt said:

I have no sympathy for the OP; not only does he make repeatedly bad judgements relating to risk in a country notorious for its poor observance and enforcement of traffic regulations, which results in the second highest road mortality rate in the World, he also has the gall to request no comment or criticism for his blatantly foolish behaviour.

Grow up man, you need to accept the consequences of your actions.

I have no sympathy for the OP; not only does he make repeatedly bad judgements relating to risk in a country notorious for its poor observance and enforcement of traffic regulations.

 

Anybody living here has to deal with the traffic issues. What do you do to get around? Or do you lock yourself away and wrap yourself in cotton wool when you dare leave home?

 

It's not illegal or wrong to ride a bike, a motorbike or a car in this country, so why the criticism?

[NoshowJones]

2 hours ago, Thaidream said:

The OP is not running away- he is questioning the charges and the need for the care he was given. He is on a low budget and is looking for a solution.  I also question the ethics  of what happened at the private hospital.

However, since this is Thailand and not one's home country where other solutions may be available, I would ask the hospital to reduce the charges- and then negotiate a repayment plan that fits the budget of the patient.

That could have happened quite easily if the greedy people had taken him to the first government hospital instead of a very expensive private one.

[chrissables]

5 hours ago, bazza73 said:

I disagree. You don't put much value on your life if you are going to ride a bicycle in Bangkok traffic. Obviously you learned nothing from your first accident.

How do you travel around bkk? It's not illegal to ride you know.

Or maybe because other road users are bad you think he is wrong?

 

[NoshowJones]

2 hours ago, Minnie the Minx said:

By his own admission he 'walked out'. That's running away. 

 

Don't forget he was 'unconscious'. What if he walked out and later on fainted? 

If the OP is still around, I would like to ask him if he was dropped of at the first government hospital, would he have tried to come to some arrangement to pay them as it would have been a lot less that at Bumungrad.

[Confuscious]

2 hours ago, lopburi3 said:

The post was about health insurance - not accident insurance.

"Greetings. I cycle a lot everywhere and do thousands of kms each year (no comments on what you think of that please, its not what this post is about) Late last year, I had an accident almost right outside the Vaphiwadi Hospital. The voluntary service was called and took more there unconscious, where I was monitored. When I came round they said we think you should CT scan and a few other things. I said no and walked straight out."

Unless my understanding of the English language is so bad, I understand that the OP had an ACCIDENT and was taken by the voluntary service to Vaphiwadi Hospital for treatment.
So, this is a case for an PA or Personal Accident Insurance.

 

The OP had 2 cycling accidents and both would have been covered by a PA insurance.

 

[Minnie the Minx]

The issue here is MONEY.

 

What is the contention where he was taken? The OP has no MONEY to pay the bills. No health insurance.

 

He was given treatment now he says 'Yeah thanks for that but I didn't ask for it'. You took me to the 'wrong hospital'. 

 

I won't go into an expletive but what the...

 

Third time unlucky leave him in the ditch imo.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Minnie the Minx

[1FinickyOne]

13 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

Yes, I have already said he should come to some arrangement to pay part of the fee, my big gripe about the whole thing is the people driving past government hospitals to get to Bumrungrad obviously so they will get more money, and although I have never dealt with them, I believe private hospitals are run like insurance companies and banks, with the attitude, get us much money from people as you can, capitalism at it's worst..

Why does a private hospital charge three or fours times as much as a pharmacist for the same medicine? It is just pure greed.

The private hospitals are well well well worth what they charge.. 

 

I agree - the pharmacy is too expensive as the costs of meds can be easily priced elsewhere. It is too obvious. I think they should charge the same for the meds and more for some of their other services. I recently had a procedure at a name private hospital and the doctors advised me to buy the meds outside the hospital.

 

While in a hospital, I know in USA too you pay an exorbitant price for meds.  

 

I did not find my stay in hospital expensive, especially if compared to the western world, maybe 10-20% of the cost. The hospital was spick and span. I had a private room w/ a/c etc and 24 hour nurse service at my beck and call for less than $100 US per night... about the cost of a nice hotel room and room service is available for food. I have been in plenty of government hospitals and there are 20 beds to a ward and no a/c - doctors and nurses are there, but busy and less than attentive. 

 

This is why private hospitals are more expensive and though there is an overlap, mostly, the doctors are more likely to be better in the private hospital. If you walk through Bum. & cannot agree that it would be more expensive than a govt hospital, then you need new specs. - - and for me, when I am not well, I very much appreciated staying in a five star hospital, rather than a 1 star ward... 

[Grumpy Duck]

On 4/20/2017 at 0:19 AM, Deserted said:

i was not covered at the time of the accident but if they want to help me clear it, can't they post date the accident by two weeks? How much of it would Bupa cover?

Not sure where you are from, but in all countries I have been in that is called fraud and is a felony. 

[Wake Up]

On 4/19/2017 at 11:15 PM, gmac said:

If it wasn't for the blatant overcharging and unnecessary procedures undertaken to pad bills the Farangs might a little less likely to try avoiding payment.  Taken into a private hospital as the OP was even though Government hospitals were closer, I tend to agree with his feelings on the matter.  As an accident victim you don't know what treatments are necessary, if it seemed that serious why wasn't he taken to the closest one rather than the one where the volunteer service gained the most commission.  

Blatant overcharging ???? Cheap compared to the rest of the world. If the hospital had not performed the tests and OP suffered a serious injury that could have been prevented he would be screaming that they failed to do their job. 

Man up and pay your bills on a payment plan.  You were unconscious.  They did what was medicallly necessary to help you. Now pay on a payment plan and get some health insurance. But for you to complain that they helped is ridiculas. In hindsight you were ok. Great news. But tests were needed to possibly save your life and you are ungrateful to those that did the tests because they charged you for the tests. Amazing logic which simply means you can't afford to live here and have any accident so in essence Thailand would be better off asking you to take your bike and leave. Another case for no health insurance no visa. 

[mommysboy]

34 minutes ago, kenk24 said:

The private hospitals are well well well worth what they charge.. 

 

I agree - the pharmacy is too expensive as the costs of meds can be easily priced elsewhere. It is too obvious. I think they should charge the same for the meds and more for some of their other services. I recently had a procedure at a name private hospital and the doctors advised me to buy the meds outside the hospital.

 

While in a hospital, I know in USA too you pay an exorbitant price for meds.  

 

I did not find my stay in hospital expensive, especially if compared to the western world, maybe 10-20% of the cost. The hospital was spick and span. I had a private room w/ a/c etc and 24 hour nurse service at my beck and call for less than $100 US per night... about the cost of a nice hotel room and room service is available for food. I have been in plenty of government hospitals and there are 20 beds to a ward and no a/c - doctors and nurses are there, but busy and less than attentive. 

 

This is why private hospitals are more expensive and though there is an overlap, mostly, the doctors are more likely to be better in the private hospital. If you walk through Bum. & cannot agree that it would be more expensive than a govt hospital, then you need new specs. - - and for me, when I am not well, I very much appreciated staying in a five star hospital, rather than a 1 star ward... 

You are reasonably well off though.

 

The NHS UK spends 3500 Eur per head each year and that is the lowest amongst peer countries.  It's comprehensive insurance.  A 50 year old out here would have to pay the same money for a policy that falls short of unlimited coverage- probably cutting out at around 2 million baht.  You won't get insurance late in to old age either.

 

So as a broad measure I would contend that health costs out here are more expensive.

 

It will seem cheap while one is relatively young, healthy, and doesn't fall off a motorbike, but if you get really ill you could easily drain even a healthy bank account.

 

 

[Grumpy Duck]

I feel for OP. Hind sight is always 20/20, but. 

I am not sure if it would help, but perhaps get an ID bracelet stating in home language & Thai "Emergency procedures ie: name, passport #, "In case of emergency transport to xxx or nearest hospital" Blood Type with Rh factor as well as allergies"

 

personally, I am fortunate not to have needed emergency medical care. I had severe pain once, had a friend take me to Lad Phrao General which I understand is a state hospital. I found it to be extremely clean, I was well cared for by all staff.

 Recently I had diverticulitis and a friend took me to a private hospital Paolo Siam on Chock Chai 4. Which was also nice.

 

I have checked on health insurance here I found at over 60 age no Thai company would cover me and the foreign companies were well over $200 month. 

[mikebike]

I would consider getting a custom bicycle jersey or tshirt with "if unconscious take me to govt hospital" printed in Thai in very large type front and back. Future issues solved.

[elgordo38]

2 hours ago, kenk24 said:

Maybe if he were conscious, or left a contact number in case of accident, he would have been able to choose for himself... if it were me and I was found unconscious after an accident, I would have wanted Bumrungrad. For possibly saving his life, the charges don't sound that expensive to me... but, either way, you don't just walk out w/o paying anything... if he has a gripe about price, take it up with administration... ask for a discount & a payment plan... but for what they did to help him, why do they get nothing? He didn't even offer them what a cheap hospital would charge - just nothing... 

 

This and that he wanted to defraud an insurance company illustrate character. 

He just stated he finished paying school costs so he was tapped out. There are so many here living on the edge and I know a couple personally. Life becomes a high wire act with no safety net.

[elgordo38]

1 hour ago, possum1931 said:

Are you serious? I was told it was sixty.

I am sure I saw a watered down plan good till 100. I will not swear on a stack of bibles. 

[NoshowJones]

I bet you won't.

[1FinickyOne]

24 minutes ago, elgordo38 said:

He just stated he finished paying school costs so he was tapped out. There are so many here living on the edge and I know a couple personally. Life becomes a high wire act with no safety net.

Yes. That is a very sad truth and insurance is high when over 70, but lets be real, I would not want to be the insurer paying those medical bills for old people... if you had the money, is that a bet you would want to take? I sure wouldn't. It is a business and they are trying to make a profit. 

 

I hear people who sound secure talking about saving $1-200,000 for medical in their old age. It's not likely enough. Who knows what medical costs might be like in ten years? 

 

My guess is that in USA, even with medicare, a pretty good % of the population dies broke... 

[Sheryl]

2 hours ago, snowgard said:

Why they not choose to do xray for 300-1000 THB? So this a simple <deleted> up!!!

 

Because an Xray shows only bone, and they needed to check for an intracranial bleed.

 

A head CT on an unconscious, seizing accident victim is standard medical practice, its omission would have been negligent in the extreme.

 

They did in fact xray the cervical and throacic spine (NOT more cans as initial post suggested) as in that instance what is being looked for are injuries to bone.

 

The bill was not at all high by Bumrungrad standards and nothing non-essential was done. This was an uninsured patient whose ability to pay had not been ascertained. They had absolutely no reason to provide unnecessary care, nor did they. They did however provide such care as was necessary on an emergency basis to safeguard life and function...as required by law.

 

 

 

 

[mogandave]

 
Actually there are mant international insurers who will issue policies to people over 70 (which there is no indication the OP is). But the time to take out a policy is prior to that as the older one is, the morel ikley to have pre-existing conditions which will be excluded.
 
Over at the price range he mentions I think he means not health insurance but accident insurance.  That is easily gotten at least up to age 65 at very low rates. But, while better than nothing, it won't help in case of a catastrophic illness.

What they mean is insurance that people (other than them) that work and or saved their money are forced to pay for on their behalf.

[Sheryl]

2 hours ago, possum1931 said:

If the OP is still around, I would like to ask him if he was dropped of at the first government hospital, would he have tried to come to some arrangement to pay them as it would have been a lot less that at Bumungrad.

 

Contrary to what OP said (and what people have for some reason taken at face value) there are NOT any -- let alone 6 - government hospitals between Din Dang and Bumrungrad if raveling by the quickest route (expressway).

 

Had he been at a government hospital, cost would have been about half. Which is apparently still far more than he can pay.

 

As for those who think a t-shirt or other instruction asking to be taken to only a government hospital would somehow solve things in future:

 

- if every minute counts and it is life threatening and there is a private hospital significantly closer than the nearest govt hospital, do you seriously expect emergency personnel to knowingly cause a patient's death in order to comply with such instructions when the patient is unable to speak for themselves?

 

- do you really think it probable in such a situation, amid all the blood and rush to stabilize and transport the patient, that someone will stop to read the t-shirt or look for instructions in the wallet?

 

- are you aware that even in a government hospitals, bills for car after major trauma can exceed a million baht?

 

 

[mogandave]

While I would believe Sheryl on the need for the tests as she has a medical background- I doubt that the OP would consider suing the hospital. These type of suits are rare in Thailand. However, what is not so rare is that certain private hospitals run up the bills on patients to generate the most income possible.
I have seen this happen first hand with a family member who was hospitalized with a very minor ailment simply because they had insurance.
The issue is for profit hospitals being allowed to operate alongside government or not for profit hospitals. In my mind- if a person is unconscious and an ambulance brings a patient to a for profit hospital- either for an emergent reason or because they are getting a commission- the hospital should only be allowed to charge a the not for profit rate.
 
The ultimate solution to all is simple- get rid of insurance companies; get rid of profit in healthcare and go to universal healthcare system paid for by governments/tax dollars and work out a reimbursement provision for non citizens from their home countries. Everyone wins except the greedy.
 

Unless of course you consider people wanting other people to pay for their healthcare greedy.

[NoshowJones]

25 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

 

Contrary to what OP said (and what people have for some reason taken at face value) there are NOT any -- let alone 6 - government hospitals between Din Dang and Bumrungrad if raveling by the quickest route (expressway).

 

Had he been at a government hospital, cost would have been about half. Which is apparently still far more than he can pay.

 

As for those who think a t-shirt or other instruction asking to be taken to only a government hospital would somehow solve things in future:

 

- if every minute counts and it is life threatening and there is a private hospital significantly closer than the nearest govt hospital, do you seriously expect emergency personnel to knowingly cause a patient's death in order to comply with such instructions when the patient is unable to speak for themselves?

 

- do you really think it probable in such a situation, amid all the blood and rush to stabilize and transport the patient, that someone will stop to read the t-shirt or look for instructions in the wallet?

 

- are you aware that even in a government hospitals, bills for car after major trauma can exceed a million baht?

 

 

I'm only going by what has been said, there was supposed to be six government hospitals on the way to Bumungrad, but I take your point in what you are saying. It is common knowledge that the volunteers on these ambulances, are always ready to pounce on accidents to get payments from the hospitals on delivery of the accident victims. I witnessed a minor road accident only last year where there was one lady only slightly shaken and still able to walk.

Six ambulances turned up very quickly before even the police.

[mikebike]

Sheryl, so sorry you didn't see the sarcasm in my post. Fortunately I agree with everything else you've said!

[smo]

3 hours ago, mikebike said:

I would consider getting a custom bicycle jersey or tshirt with "if unconscious take me to govt hospital" printed in Thai in very large type front and back. Future issues solved.

Or a placard hung on the front panier with words (I suggest in both Thai and English, one never knows, in case the ambulance happens to be run by foreigners, Singaporeans especially) to that effect, flanked by a couple of tiny flags one black/white stuck on each side. 

 

 

[ajarngreg]

1 minute ago, smo said:

Or a placard hung on the front panier with words (I suggest in both Thai and English, one never knows, in case the ambulance happens to be run by foreigners, Singaporeans especially) to that effect, flanked by a couple of tiny flags one black/white stuck on each side. 

 

 

Are you the only one who believes that this is funny? 

[ajarngreg]

3 hours ago, elgordo38 said:

He just stated he finished paying school costs so he was tapped out. There are so many here living on the edge and I know a couple personally. Life becomes a high wire act with no safety net.

I'm pretty sure that we all know at least one, or even more foreigners who're really suffering in LOS after the dream bubble exploded. 

 

         It's sad that those who already have huge problems are sometimes blamed by others for not having money without knowing the circumstances.

 

       The OP has a child and there's not even one word about his gf, or wife. Children and schools can be very expensive and it would be great if some people would start to understand that not all of us have an easy life here.

 

Shit happens everywhere and none of us here knows what will happen to us in the future. Cancer, heart attack, or maybe a stroke? 

 

       The OP seems to be a little bit naive and doesn't seem to have good luck. If something bad would happen to any of us, let's say a "hit and run" and we'd wake up paralyzed in a hospital bed with an open bill of 3 million baht, certain people would immediately change their mind.

 

   The problem in this country are not the Thai people. The biggest enemies of foreigners are and always were other foreigners who get a kick out of other peoples' misfortune. 

 

         

          

Edited April 21, 2017 by ajarngreg