Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[Orac]

Euro rules limit trading options between Jamaica and the UK?

There is a trade deal in place already between EU and Jamaica. Ironically when we leave the EU it will cease to apply.


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[Khun Han]

6 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

 

There is a trade deal in place already between EU and Jamaica. Ironically when we leave the EU it will cease to apply.


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Do you think it will be difficult to emplace a better one?

[Orac]

 
Do you think it will be difficult to emplace a better one?

Almost certainly we would try and copy the one that already exists since it encompasses several African, Caribbean and Pacific countries.

Trade deals are massively complex and take a significant amount of time to negotiate so as they comply with WTO rules. Since the U.K. has a serious shortage of trade negotiators as all this has previously been done through the EU it will take a long time to establish new trade deals that differ from the existing EU ones and would not make sense to waste those precious negotiating resources on a such an insignificant economy as Jamaica.

It also needs to be mentioned that the aim of trade deals is to open up overseas markets to our exports yet this seems to getting lost in many of the conversations going on and replaced with this notion that the idea is to make goods cheaper to buy in the U.K. which doesn’t really stack up and ignores many trade agreements in place with the EU already.


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[StayinThailand2much]

On 2/28/2018 at 4:22 AM, webfact said:

Brexit has created chaos in Britain ...

 

Som nam na, as they say in Thailand! They should have listened to responsible politicians like David Cameron. Another example how mindless nationalism can hurt a country's economy and social systems.

[nontabury]

4 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Well unless you had a spectacularly bad financial advisor, I would hazard a guess that the amount you paid on your investment profits was not in the same league as a UK-resident Polish builder would have paid income tax. I see his contribution to the UK as being being larger than yours or mine.

I don’t think so, but it is better than working for peanuts in Manila.

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, nontabury said:

I don’t think so, but it is better than working for peanuts in Manila.

Peanuts on a good day

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, nontabury said:

I don’t think so, but it is better than working for peanuts in Manila.

I was not trying to knock the extent of your investment, but good financial advice for expats is not hard to come by, and most advisors will help you legally limit your exposure. Of course, once Devere gets your number, your life becomes hell but there are other companies out there.

[MaeJoMTB]

26 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I was not trying to knock the extent of your investment, but good financial advice for expats is not hard to come by, and most advisors will help you legally limit your exposure. Of course, once Devere gets your number, your life becomes hell but there are other companies out there.

Most financial advisers in Thailand will steal your money in a flash.

[citybiker]

There is a trade deal in place already between EU and Jamaica. Ironically when we leave the EU it will cease to apply.


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So the U.K./Jamaica may have an opportunity to improve on the trade to deal to benefit both parties.

Popular and pragmatic terminology in my work environment, there’s ‘always’ room for improvement.



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[nauseus]

9 hours ago, Grouse said:

John Major's input was well received.

 

Except by "Moggadon" who I thought was rather rude.

Major's drvel is just another part of the Brexit derailment campaign and like Blair, he's another unpopular meddler. Rees-Mogg  sees the need for these interfering self-righteous morons to be rebuked immediately and he's right. 

[brewsterbudgen]

Major's drvel is just another part of the Brexit derailment campaign and like Blair, he's another unpopular meddler. Rees-Mogg  sees the need for these interfering self-righteous morons to be rebuked immediately and he's right. 

Rees-Mogg - that's the future with Brexit. Positively terrifying.

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[RuamRudy]

4 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Major's drvel is just another part of the Brexit derailment campaign and like Blair, he's another unpopular meddler. Rees-Mogg  sees the need for these interfering self-righteous morons to be rebuked immediately and he's right. 

Interesting that the stately home born, eton educated fund manager with 100 million plus in the bank refers to lowly John Major, son of a circus performer, as the 1% elite. .

[Grouse]

9 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Major's drvel is just another part of the Brexit derailment campaign and like Blair, he's another unpopular meddler. Rees-Mogg  sees the need for these interfering self-righteous morons to be rebuked immediately and he's right. 

As always, The Economist is right! Read this:

 

https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21737271-britain-can-take-back-control-europe-without-cutting-all-ties-right-way-do-brexit

 

Just sign up and get a couple of erudite articles for nothing. You won't regret it, I promise ?

[Grouse]

13 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Major's drvel is just another part of the Brexit derailment campaign and like Blair, he's another unpopular meddler. Rees-Mogg  sees the need for these interfering self-righteous morons to be rebuked immediately and he's right. 

How can Brexit be de-railed when the wheels have already fallen off. We're just trying to find a way that you can save face. Norway PLUS customs union would be good. You will be able to negotiate new SERVICES bilateral deals. Why do you want manufactured products? 9% of GDP and mostly foreign earned. We can even fix immigration AND replace ECJ with EFTA structures. Now come on, don't be depressed, this looks like a sensible way forward!

[Orac]

So the U.K./Jamaica may have an opportunity to improve on the trade to deal to benefit both parties.

Popular and pragmatic terminology in my work environment, there’s ‘always’ room for improvement.



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You are correct in that trade deals can be improved on, I guess the ultimate trade deal would be some sort of single market with no border controls on goods moving between countries and who wouldn’t want that.

One thing that Jamaica would be looking for would be more access for their agricultural products and specifically sugar which is their biggest export product after bauxite. I am sure that would be something that David Davis would like to see after all the years he spent working for the US owned Tate and Lyle and who coincidentally also sponsored the Conservative Party conference. Unfortunately Tate and Lyle manufacture cane sugar which comes from outside the EU as opposed to British Sugar PLC who refine sugar from sugar beet grown by UK/EU farmers.


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[citybiker]

You are correct in that trade deals can be improved on, I guess the ultimate trade deal would be some sort of single market with no border controls on goods moving between countries and who wouldn’t want that.

One thing that Jamaica would be looking for would be more access for their agricultural products and specifically sugar which is their biggest export product after bauxite. I am sure that would be something that David Davis would like to see after all the years he spent working for the US owned Tate and Lyle and who coincidentally also sponsored the Conservative Party conference. Unfortunately Tate and Lyle manufacture cane sugar which comes from outside the EU as opposed to British Sugar PLC who refine sugar from sugar beet grown by UK/EU farmers.


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Where’s there’s a political will from both sides, much can be achieved.



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[nauseus]

6 minutes ago, Grouse said:

As always, The Economist is right! Read this:

 

https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21737271-britain-can-take-back-control-europe-without-cutting-all-ties-right-way-do-brexit

 

Just sign up and get a couple of erudite articles for nothing. You won't regret it, I promise ?

I read it, just for you. I am aware of the Norwegian EEA arrangement.

 

This article makes accusations about Brexiteers' "far-fetched" assumptions but it makes several of similar claims itself , so, to me, it is designed to give a warm fuzzy feeling about adopting some kind of EEA scheme that is probably not achievable while satisfying that leave vote at the same time. I say that because it seems the the EU line is to continually demand, rather than negotiate - the EU certainly can choose to make it hard for the UK as a deterrent and example to other member states that might fancy opting out but that doesn't help either party arrive at the most mutually beneficial post-Brexit arrangements. economic and otherwise.

 

Norway pays a lot of money to be in the single market but keeps control of its the farming and fishing. I can tell you that if fishing control had been threatened then Norway would never have joined the EEA. The single market involves open immigration, which is a main reason for many UK voters wanting out and which is recently also causing increasing resentent and problems inside Norway. The article states that "worries about immigration are subsiding"in the UK but I don't see real evidence for that and this is rather another assumption. I also don't see any evidence of this looser 2-speed EU apart from talk; it defies what most of the big wigs say their ideal for the EU is and it took the Brexit vote to make them think (just think) again, although they do seem to be  becoming as confused as the Tory cabinet recently).

 

I see your point about the EEA (of which the UK was previously a member but when it was a proper economic arrangement, without these conditions of free-movement etc) but these conditions of being part of it will not really satisfy the referendum vote unless there was a very favourable bespoke arrangement for the UK regarding both EU law and freedom of movement and I can't see the EU allowing that.

 

There is still the Customs Union / NI border question. Do you really think that the EU will allow a special customs union arrangement for the UK? Looks like not, so far.

 

We are just going to have to see what is agreed, when its agreed. 

 

And then let parliament mangle that!

[Khun Han]

8 hours ago, Orac said:

 

Almost certainly we would try and copy the one that already exists since it encompasses several African, Caribbean and Pacific countries.

Trade deals are massively complex and take a significant amount of time to negotiate so as they comply with WTO rules. Since the U.K. has a serious shortage of trade negotiators as all this has previously been done through the EU it will take a long time to establish new trade deals that differ from the existing EU ones and would not make sense to waste those precious negotiating resources on a such an insignificant economy as Jamaica.

It also needs to be mentioned that the aim of trade deals is to open up overseas markets to our exports yet this seems to getting lost in many of the conversations going on and replaced with this notion that the idea is to make goods cheaper to buy in the U.K. which doesn’t really stack up and ignores many trade agreements in place with the EU already.


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I expect that the new trade deal will be adopted pretty-much 'off the shelf' from the existing one, with some liberalisation thrown in which wasn't allowed by the EU. It's really not as complicated a process as some would have us believe.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

How can Brexit be de-railed when the wheels have already fallen off. We're just trying to find a way that you can save face. Norway PLUS customs union would be good. You will be able to negotiate new SERVICES bilateral deals. Why do you want manufactured products? 9% of GDP and mostly foreign earned. We can even fix immigration AND replace ECJ with EFTA structures. Now come on, don't be depressed, this looks like a sensible way forward!

I don't think anyone actually knows the extent of damage to, or the number of wheels on the Brexit locomotive. But there are a few still attached and spinning (about 17.4 million). Will it reach its destination? Where will that be? Who will be the driver then?

 

Just me in reflective mode.

 

 

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, Khun Han said:

 

I expect that the new trade deal will be adopted pretty-much 'off the shelf' from the existing one, with some liberalisation thrown in which wasn't allowed by the EU. It's really not as complicated a process as some would have us believe.

Somewhat optimistic!  

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, citybiker said:

Where’s there’s a political will from both sides, much can be achieved.
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It would help if there was a single British side rather than a mess of in-fighting civil war. That is just one aspect of the Brexit caused chaos.

[stevenl]

2 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

It would help if there was a single British side rather than a mess of in-fighting civil war. That is just one aspect of the Brexit caused chaos.

And the expected EU infighting has not (yet) materialised.

[Khun Han]

7 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Somewhat optimistic!  

 

Just to clarify,I was referring to Jamaica.

[nontabury]

 Kate Hoey the Labour M.P for one of the London constituencies, States that in her opinion there is now a greater support for Brexit in the remain heartland of London.

And we keep hearing from the remoaners that the automobile industry is about to decamp the U.K due to the British peoples democratic decision to leave the E.U. yet they seem to be very quite on Toyota decision to build the next generation of the Auris in the U.K. thus securing the employment of 3,000 workers. Of course they could point out that Toy are Us and Marlin are closing down, but that would go against the statement from that company, denying that’s its anything 

To do with Briexit. Rumour has it, that their business has been highly effected by Amazon.

So what’s left, could this terrible weather now affecting the U.K. be a result of Brexit? Well I’m sure the remoaners think so.

 

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

I read it, just for you. I am aware of the Norwegian EEA arrangement.

 

This article makes accusations about Brexiteers' "far-fetched" assumptions but it makes several of similar claims itself , so, to me, it is designed to give a warm fuzzy feeling about adopting some kind of EEA scheme that is probably not achievable while satisfying that leave vote at the same time. I say that because it seems the the EU line is to continually demand, rather than negotiate - the EU certainly can choose to make it hard for the UK as a deterrent and example to other member states that might fancy opting out but that doesn't help either party arrive at the most mutually beneficial post-Brexit arrangements. economic and otherwise.

 

Norway pays a lot of money to be in the single market but keeps control of its the farming and fishing. I can tell you that if fishing control had been threatened then Norway would never have joined the EEA. The single market involves open immigration, which is a main reason for many UK voters wanting out and which is recently also causing increasing resentent and problems inside Norway. The article states that "worries about immigration are subsiding"in the UK but I don't see real evidence for that and this is rather another assumption. I also don't see any evidence of this looser 2-speed EU apart from talk; it defies what most of the big wigs say their ideal for the EU is and it took the Brexit vote to make them think (just think) again, although they do seem to be  becoming as confused as the Tory cabinet recently).

 

I see your point about the EEA (of which the UK was previously a member but when it was a proper economic arrangement, without these conditions of free-movement etc) but these conditions of being part of it will not really satisfy the referendum vote unless there was a very favourable bespoke arrangement for the UK regarding both EU law and freedom of movement and I can't see the EU allowing that.

 

There is still the Customs Union / NI border question. Do you really think that the EU will allow a special customs union arrangement for the UK? Looks like not, so far.

 

We are just going to have to see what is agreed, when its agreed. 

 

And then let parliament mangle that!

Thanks for taking the time to read it! Food for thought and maybe the seeds of a solution. ?

[Grouse]

33 minutes ago, nontabury said:

 Kate Hoey the Labour M.P for one of the London constituencies, States that in her opinion there is now a greater support for Brexit in the remain heartland of London.

And we keep hearing from the remoaners that the automobile industry is about to decamp the U.K due to the British peoples democratic decision to leave the E.U. yet they seem to be very quite on Toyota decision to build the next generation of the Auris in the U.K. thus securing the employment of 3,000 workers. Of course they could point out that Toy are Us and Marlin are closing down, but that would go against the statement from that company, denying that’s its anything 

To do with Briexit. Rumour has it, that their business has been highly effected by Amazon.

So what’s left, could this terrible weather now affecting the U.K. be a result of Brexit? Well I’m sure the remoaners think so.

 

Maplin were the main source of electronic components for aspiring engineers, rocket scientists and assorted geeks. Not good

 

The Japanese are being as inscrutable as always, ramping up the value (and potential loss) of the motor industry if we don't stay in a/the customs union. Pity we don't have them negotiating for us!

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, nontabury said:

 Kate Hoey the Labour M.P for one of the London constituencies, States that in her opinion there is now a greater support for Brexit in the remain heartland of London.

And we keep hearing from the remoaners that the automobile industry is about to decamp the U.K due to the British peoples democratic decision to leave the E.U. yet they seem to be very quite on Toyota decision to build the next generation of the Auris in the U.K. thus securing the employment of 3,000 workers. Of course they could point out that Toy are Us and Marlin are closing down, but that would go against the statement from that company, denying that’s its anything 

To do with Briexit. Rumour has it, that their business has been highly effected by Amazon.

So what’s left, could this terrible weather now affecting the U.K. be a result of Brexit? Well I’m sure the remoaners think so.

That would be the same Kate Hoey who thinks Brexit is a positive left-wing move.

[SheungWan]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

I don't think anyone actually knows the extent of damage to, or the number of wheels on the Brexit locomotive. But there are a few still attached and spinning (about 17.4 million). Will it reach its destination? Where will that be? Who will be the driver then?

Just me in reflective mode.

The driver would clearly be Boris Johnson in the 250 million pound battle bus.

[nauseus]

32 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

The driver would clearly be Boris Johnson in the 250 million pound battle bus.

Not enough wheels or cash. It was 350M anyway.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

Thanks for taking the time to read it! Food for thought and maybe the seeds of a solution. ?

Possibly but these seeds would need Jack and the Beanstalk potential.

 

A TRIVIAL ASIDE - DID YOU KNOW that according to researchers at the universities in Durham and Lisbon, the story originated more than 5,000 years ago, based on a widespread archaic story form which is now classified by folklorists as ATU 328 The Boy Who Stole Ogre's Treasure?