TM30 explained for landlords and tenants

[rumak]

2 hours ago, fobuff said:

I had friends from America visit me for two weeks in Bangkok...  Fill in TM30  ???

 

I visit my in-laws in Surin often for a week at a time ... they fill a TM30....  ???

 

Totally ridiculous....

maybe you can submit that to the T  tourism board.  Sounds like a good slogan to me:

Come visit ridiculous thailand  !

[rumak]

6 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

You should read the thread from the start, you seem to not understand how TM30's work.

i think he will be even more confused after reading the posts     lol

[blankagain]

On 6/7/2018 at 5:39 PM, sam neuts said:

Let me know when you are happy with each answer.

 

First question answered in link is the requirement to carry your original passport.

 

More info available if required but please be nice. I am not trying to spread false information or do any harm.

 

Only information to discuss and as i said before. I am not a Guru and I accept if i write something incorrectly which makes it difficult to understand. Apologies

For someone who just 10 day's ago posted  "Sorry does that mean I shouldn't put info into the post that i have read. I have only just started on ThaiVisa and not sure of the rules"

has decided to educate members on your interpretation on Thailand Immigration laws.  May I suggest you leave this to the 'experts' on this forum to  to handout information. I note, all your links have been removed, obviously, by someone in authority here.

This subject has been flogged to death here...move on.

[simoh1490]

11 hours ago, JackThompson said:

Go to the front-desk, and tell them you want to extend your Tourist Visa.  You will be given a list of things to provide.  In the case of a hotel,  you need a business-card for the hotel, a receipt for payment to the hotel, and hope the hotel filed a TM-30 for you when you checked-in.

 

Or, you can pay an "agent" a cash-sum to "handle it all" for you - which is probably what "Mr. Stays-In 5-Star-Hotel" will do.

It's interesting to note that in your example of a tourist visa being extended, Immigration appears interested in the daily whereabouts of foreigners inside Thailand. I on the other hand, located in Chiang Mai, on a retirement visa, appear to be free to travel in-country whenever and wherever I please and Immigration has said they don't want me to report that travel, only when I return from abroad do I need to reconfirm my address. I can't tell if that's two different Immigration offices interpreting the same rules differently or whether all Immigration offices treat different visa types differently, either way the exercise seems futile and full of holes.

[brewsterbudgen]

For someone who just 10 day's ago posted  "Sorry does that mean I shouldn't put info into the post that i have read. I have only just started on ThaiVisa and not sure of the rules"
has decided to educate members on your interpretation on Thailand Immigration laws.  May I suggest you leave this to the 'experts' on this forum to  to handout information. I note, all your links have been removed, obviously, by someone in authority here.
This subject has been flogged to death here...move on.

Funny how thread with the aim of explaining how something works, has just made it more confusing!

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[sam neuts]

 

[ubonjoe]

A off topic inflammatory post has been removed.

[chrisinth]

Whether this is a troll/wind-up post I don't know. Opening Post starts with apparent 'facts' laid out, to be followed, and then the OP decides this is not advice but the opening of a debate. I have never heard of some of these, such as presenting TM30's for 90 day reporting and asking travelers leaving the country why TM30's haven't been filled in or submitted?

 

For the first point (TM30's for 90 day reporting) I fully understand that each immigration office has different expectations for their customers, but as for point 2 (travelers leaving the country) how would that be possible? Unless their databases are working live, in real time, how would the IO know that the traveler had left his hotel 1 hour before arriving at the airport/point of exit? AFAIK, a hotel has until midday the day after to register their guests (maybe a bit wrong with that, but it isn't an instantaneous process) If the traveler was staying at hotels for their entire stay, they would never have to fill in either a TM28 or a TM30. How could the IO differentiate where the traveler stayed, hotel/condo/private home? Sorry, just trying to get my head round this.

 

Anyway, as said, every immigration office has different requirements. I have been living here now for 21 years and have never filled in a TM30 and never been asked to. I live in my own house (wife's name in blue book), have been on continued extensions for the last 14 years, do 90 day reporting and travel (very) frequently inside Thailand. Never once been questioned by an IO as to my trace-ability. Maybe just lucky, eh?

 

But, IMO, this is the sort of post that will never reach any sort of conclusion until all the immigration offices/sections are reading off the same page, following the actual laws/regulations because there will be no benchmark. And this is not going to happen in the near future...............

[Skeptic7]

On 6/7/2018 at 5:32 PM, sam neuts said:

I am not saying it would be enforced only that the law exists

Yes...and can be enforced or disregarded willy nilly at any time, by any office, by any IO. In this country inconsistencies are the rule and most times, left hand hasn't a clue (nor a care!) what the right is doing. 

[AYJAYDEE]

1 minute ago, Skeptic7 said:

Yes...and can be enforced or disregarded willy nilly at any time, by any office, by any IO. In this country inconsistencies are the rule and most times, left hand hasn't a clue (nor a care!) what the right is doing. 

a good reason to obey it

 

[rumak]

1 hour ago, chrisinth said:

Anyway, as said, every immigration office has different requirements. I have been living here now for 21 years and have never filled in a TM30 and never been asked to. I live in my own house (wife's name in blue book), have been on continued extensions for the last 14 years, do 90 day reporting and travel (very) frequently inside Thailand. Never once been questioned by an IO as to my trace-ability. Maybe just lucky, eh?

21 years ? !   OK,  so i am sorry to inform you that though we did not enforce the tm30 requirement before

we are now.   Hmmm, Let's see ,  21 years x 4000 baht  is 84K baht.   Plus we also must fine you because

you are not following the request to "please dress politely".   (joking, but sure to be some trolls that don't get it)....................................Yep, you are lucky but slowly (or maybe quickly) more and more provinces are 

"enforcing" the tm30.   See if there is some way you can get your wife to go in and report you as living there

and get the bloody tm30 report done , you being the "alien" staying at her house ( if she is a charmer and talks sweet maybe no fine).   But if so  i would still

try to smile and do the thai sorry sorry bit....maybe a 800 baht or 1600 baht fine.  DISCLAIMER:  this is my

opinion,  pretty much how i did it after found out they were enforcing it.   No fine for me.  Unlike some "warriors"  on TV i would not fight it ,  though I am older and wiser now.   

 

[Maestro]

I have seen varying amounts mentioned for the fine collected by immigration officials from the "householder, the owner or the possessor of a dwelling place" mentioned in Section 38 of the Immigration Act – eg 800, 1600, 4000 Baht – for the failure to submit the notification of a foreigner at the residence in a timely fashion with the form TM.30. We know from posts in this and other topics that some officials may not know or wantonly disregard the legal limits and permissions, but purely as an academic exercise it would be interesting to find out the facts.

 

In my opinion, only judges, not immigration official, are free to choose a penalty within the limits mentioned in Section 77 of the Immigration Act:

Quote

Section 77. Whoever fails to comply with the provisions of Section 38,
shall be punished by a fine not exceeding two thousand baht. If the person is a hotel
manager, the punishment shall be by a fine from two thousand baht to ten thousand baht.

 

Immigration officials, on the other hand, are bound by the "criteria for settlement or any conditions as deemed fit" prescribed by the Settlement Committee under the authority of Section 84:

Quote

 

Section 84. For all offences under this Act, except for offences under
Sections 62 paragraph one, 63, 64, 71, and 82 paragraph two, there shall be established a
Settlement Committee comprising of the Police Director-General or representative, the
Public Prosecutor Director-General or representative, the Commander of the Immigration
Division or representative, as members. The Settlement Committee shall have power to
compound the matters and to authorize the inquiry official or the competent official to
carry out settlement on its behalf. The Settlement Committee may prescribe criteria for
settlement or any conditions as deemed fit.

Upon payment of fine as compounded for settlement, it shall be deemed

that the case has been settled in accordance with the Criminal Procedure Code.

 

 

This leads to the obvious question: What is the text of the aforementioned "criteria for settlement or any conditions as deemed fit"? I have on several occasions tried, without success, to find this text.

 

[Maestro]

5 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

Yes...and can be enforced or disregarded willy nilly at any time, by any office, by any IO. In this country inconsistencies are the rule and most times, left hand hasn't a clue (nor a care!) what the right is doing. 

 

Sadly, this is how it is. As another member, NanLaew, succinctly put it in this post in another topic on the subject of the TM.30 enforcement:

 

Quote

...They make it all up as they go along and some get slapped with a fine whilst others go happily on their way, with wallets not unnecessarily tapped and totally unaware how close they were to circling sharks. No definable criteria such as age, height, haircut, nationality, personal hygiene, dress, Thai language ability, signs of visible wealth or lack thereof, depth or length of wai or preemptively stacking the tip-jar with colored paper has been positively identified as guaranteeing not leaving the office a bit poorer...

 

[Lacessit]

22 hours ago, fobuff said:

I had friends from America visit me for two weeks in Bangkok...  Fill in TM30  ???

 

I visit my in-laws in Surin often for a week at a time ... they fill a TM30....  ???

 

Totally ridiculous....

You are wasting your time. However, having fed the dog you will have to keep feeding it.

Bangkok does not require TM30's. Can you imagine how many tonnes of paper would be generated if they did? Half the city would be warehouses.

Surin? If you think Immigration has the resources to track down falangs in Bumfuck, Thailand - think again.

[lkv]

2 hours ago, Maestro said:

I have seen varying amounts mentioned for the fine collected by immigration officials from the "householder, the owner or the possessor of a dwelling place" mentioned in Section 38 of the Immigration Act – eg 800, 1600, 4000 Baht – for the failure to submit the notification of a foreigner at the residence in a timely fashion with the form TM.30. We know from posts in this and other topics that some officials may not know or wantonly disregard the legal limits and permissions, but purely as an academic exercise it would be interesting to find out the facts.

 

In my opinion, only judges, not immigration official, are free to choose a penalty within the limits mentioned in Section 77 of the Immigration Act:

 

Immigration officials, on the other hand, are bound by the "criteria for settlement or any conditions as deemed fit" prescribed by the Settlement Committee under the authority of Section 84:

 

This leads to the obvious question: What is the text of the aforementioned "criteria for settlement or any conditions as deemed fit"? I have on several occasions tried, without success, to find this text.

 

The OP will surely enlighten us.

[JackThompson]

On 6/9/2018 at 5:45 AM, simoh1490 said:

It's interesting to note that in your example of a tourist visa being extended, Immigration appears interested in the daily whereabouts of foreigners inside Thailand. I on the other hand, located in Chiang Mai, on a retirement visa, appear to be free to travel in-country whenever and wherever I please and Immigration has said they don't want me to report that travel, only when I return from abroad do I need to reconfirm my address. I can't tell if that's two different Immigration offices interpreting the same rules differently or whether all Immigration offices treat different visa types differently, either way the exercise seems futile and full of holes.

Every office makes up its own rules for each class of foreigner (what visa, extension, etc).  Reports of fines for in-country travel are not common - though I recall some reporting being threatened with multiple fines, based on hotel-reporting history, when they objected to a single fine for something they had never heard about before. 

 

People are told it is "their responsibility" to know Thai law ,when fined for things never before enforced (in decades), and based on a misinterpretation of actual law, which would be completely unworkable, if enforced as written.  Oversight is paid-off, so there is no "legal standard" involved.

[Evilbaz]

46 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Every office makes up its own rules for each class of foreigner (what visa, extension, etc).  Reports of fines for in-country travel are not common - though I recall some reporting being threatened with multiple fines, based on hotel-reporting history, when they objected to a single fine for something they had never heard about before. 

 

People are told it is "their responsibility" to know Thai law ,when fined for things never before enforced (in decades), and based on a misinterpretation of actual law, which would be completely unworkable, if enforced as written.  Oversight is paid-off, so there is no "legal standard" involved.

I agree.

The OP stated a number of times "Laws are often changed".

No they are not - the Regulations maybe but more frequently their interpretation by each IO fiefdom.

Researching the Law instead of its Application is an exercise in futility.

[Kwasaki]

On 6/9/2018 at 5:45 AM, simoh1490 said:

I on the other hand, located in Chiang Mai, on a retirement visa, appear to be free to travel in-country whenever and wherever I please and Immigration has said they don't want me to report that travel, only when I return from abroad do I need to reconfirm my address. I can't tell if that's two different Immigration offices interpreting the same rules differently or whether all Immigration offices treat different visa types differently, either way the exercise seems futile and full of holes.

I don't think someone in your position is affected by this as OP states for landlords & tenants unless your a tenant. 

[WorriedNoodle]

16 hours ago, Maestro said:

I have seen varying amounts mentioned for the fine collected by immigration officials from the "householder, the owner or the possessor of a dwelling place" mentioned in Section 38 of the Immigration Act – eg 800, 1600, 4000 Baht – for the failure to submit the notification of a foreigner at the residence in a timely fashion with the form TM.30. We know from posts in this and other topics that some officials may not know or wantonly disregard the legal limits and permissions, but purely as an academic exercise it would be interesting to find out the facts.

Attached is form the IO hands out, circled by the IO for emphasis, as soon as you show up at Nakon IO without completed TM28 or TM30 stubs in your passport. They were handing them out as a warning when I last went about 4 months ago, and  it looks pretty clear and  I was told next time they will enforce. The Alien is due a 5000THB fine for TM28 non compliance and the home owner another 2000THB.

[Maestro]

2 hours ago, WorriedNoodle said:

 Attached is form the IO hands out, circled by the IO for emphasis, as soon as you show up at Nakon IO without completed TM28 or TM30 stubs in your passport...

 

Which "Nakon" is this?

[JackThompson]

4 hours ago, WorriedNoodle said:

Attached is form the IO hands out, circled by the IO for emphasis, as soon as you show up at Nakon IO without completed TM28 or TM30 stubs in your passport. They were handing them out as a warning when I last went about 4 months ago, and  it looks pretty clear and  I was told next time they will enforce. The Alien is due a 5000THB fine for TM28 non compliance and the home owner another 2000THB.

Thanks for this.  At least they printed the whole thing, instead of the misleading cut-and-paste job I've seen prior.  It would seem that, at that office, one could file a TM28, and not be bothered with the TM-30, assuming you have a landlord.  But, I would not be surprised if, in practice, you still cannot get service until "the landlord" (i.e. "you") pays the TM-30 fine.  

[simoh1490]

2 hours ago, Maestro said:

 

Which "Nakon" is this?

Nakon Si Thammarat, at the bottom of the form.

[WorriedNoodle]

14 hours ago, JackThompson said:

Thanks for this.  At least they printed the whole thing, instead of the misleading cut-and-paste job I've seen prior.  It would seem that, at that office, one could file a TM28, and not be bothered with the TM-30, assuming you have a landlord.  But, I would not be surprised if, in practice, you still cannot get service until "the landlord" (i.e. "you") pays the TM-30 fine.  

It's strange at this office. Even tho the law document is clear and suggests a fine of both 5000THB for no TM28 and 2000THB for no TM30, the Imm Officer, whose English was only fair, said there would be a 5000THB fine next time whilst at same time only mentioning a TM30 requirement and never mentioning TM28 even when asked about TM28. They were trying to help me and did not fine me on that occasion and offered this as a warning. I therefore now do both TM28 and TM30 in case I need them and seems to be accepted by the IO in Bangkok as I have the stubs for both in my passport now. 

Edited June 11, 2018 by WorriedNoodle

[JackThompson]

7 minutes ago, WorriedNoodle said:

It's strange at this office. Even tho the law document is clear and suggests a fine of both 5000THB for no TM28 and 2000THB for no TM30, the Imm Officer, whose English was only fair, said there would be a 5000THB fine next time whilst at same time only mentioning a TM30 requirement and never mentioning TM28 even when asked about TM28.

There seems to be an ongoing effort, in many offices, to try to mix these two separate reporting requirements into "one thing" and then levy fines based on some sort of mixed-hybrid law.

 

7 minutes ago, WorriedNoodle said:

They were trying to help me and did not fine me on that occasion and offered this as a warning. I therefore now do both TM28 and TM30 in case I need them and seems to be accepted by the IO in Bangkok as I have the stubs for both in my passport now. 

Bangkok (Chang Wattana) is not reported to ever require you to file a TM-30, though they may accept it, if presented.   A TM-28, if you move to Bangkok from another area, has been reported as required.

[WorriedNoodle]

8 hours ago, JackThompson said:

Bangkok (Chang Wattana) is not reported to ever require you to file a TM-30, though they may accept it, if presented.   A TM-28, if you move to Bangkok from another area, has been reported as required.

But Nakhon IO specifically asked for TM30 from Bangkok upfront so I need to get one of those to explain where I was before I arrived in Nakhon. I mailed the TM28 and TM30 in same envelope to CW and got the stubs back for both within 10 days. Cant be arsed to go there in person.

[KhunFred]

I just moved to another condo in the same building and my landlady mentioned that she would need to report to immigration. I checked with her again today and she gave me the receipt for the paperwork that she filed. I could not determine which form was filed and it appeared to have been filed beyond the 24 hour limit. I am doing a 90 day report tomorrow, so it should be interesting to see whether or not I am fined, since she did not submit the paperwork within 24 hours. About six days passed between moving day and the filing. If I am fined tomorrow, it may be the first step toward determining whether or not I move to the Philippines.Just to be on the safe side, I am going to fill out a change of address form and take it with me. I don't know if it is required in this case, but I don't want to take any chances. I try to obey every jot and tittle of the law, but the posts here on TVF make it clear that immigration is using fines to enhance revenue.

[sam neuts]

One of the problems for renting short term as i stated previously. TM30 is required for visitors.

https://www.thephuketnews.com/airbnb-pushes-for-hotel-act-rethink-67645.php#EtwAwYOIFAhqkZHS.97

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[Horace]

On 6/6/2018 at 7:10 PM, sam neuts said:

 

Remember foreigners should carry their passport at all times according to Thai Law

This sentence uses the word "should", but is there any Thai law that says that foreigners MUST carry their passports at all times?  I have seen this claim made, but I have never seen anyone cite a law that actually says this. 

[sam neuts]

An interesting report from a few months ago.

https://www.thephuketnews.com/tourism-minister-calls-on-agoda-otas-told-to-drop-illegal-hotels-61601.php#uAZdgIrqWflyBbhb.97

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[sam neuts]

If this is correct it would mean they could do as i said previously. I guess we will see over time.

http://bangkokjack.com/2018/05/17/foreigners-tracked-thai-military/

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