UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, Stupooey said:

I'm not sure they have changed their minds. Because nobody expected this result, many people admitted after the referendum that they had voted Leave purely as an anti-Government statement, a decision they regretted immediately afterwards.

In addition, because of the pre-referendum opinion poll figures, many people, particularly Remainers (surveys since have all shown that most non-voters say they would have voted Remain, often by a ratio of about 2 to 1) did not bother to vote because the result seemed a foregone conclusion.

Incidentally, there is a very good reason the pollsters got it so wrong, but when I mentioned it in a previous thread it was pooh-poohed, even though it made absolute sense.

"I'm not sure they have changed their minds. Because nobody expected this result, many people admitted after the referendum that they had voted Leave purely as an anti-Government statement, a decision they regretted immediately afterwards."

 

Could you provide a link to above statement please?

[mommysboy]

10 minutes ago, vogie said:

"I'm not sure they have changed their minds. Because nobody expected this result, many people admitted after the referendum that they had voted Leave purely as an anti-Government statement, a decision they regretted immediately afterwards."

 

Could you provide a link to above statement please?

Yes we have to accept that all things being equal, a small majority want out of the EU.  There's no getting round that imo.

[vogie]

8 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Yes we have to accept that all things being equal, a small majority want out of the EU.  There's no getting round that imo.

I can't see the relevence to my question, but if we are in 'have a dig mode' I fully understand.

[mommysboy]

8 minutes ago, vogie said:

I can't see the relevence to my question, but if we are in 'have a dig mode' I fully understand.

No, you misunderstand I am saying precisely what is written- the result was a fair reflection of what people really want.

[adammike]

31 minutes ago, vogie said:

"I'm not sure they have changed their minds. Because nobody expected this result, many people admitted after the referendum that they had voted Leave purely as an anti-Government statement, a decision they regretted immediately afterwards."

 

Could you provide a link to above statement please?

The only one I know personally who voted leave is my niece,she did regret it soon afterwards and what's worse is that she also used  my 94yo mother's proxy vote to vote leave.

[dunroaming]

I didn't vote for Brexit but at the time accepted it if the leave campaigners delivered what they promised and it was as easy and as straightforward as Liam Fox told us.  I didn't want it but I could see there were some positives if their claims were true and it wasn't all gloom and doom.  As time has gone by though all of those promises have been broken.  Instead of the leavers standing and shouting "Hey! This is not what we voted for!" they have decided to accept all the lies and bullsh*t.  That has changed my position , I think we should at least fight for the Brexit that people voted for.  I know (we all know now) that that cannot be achieved and never could.

 

2 hours ago, mommysboy said:

The proverbial elephant in the room that is being conveniently over looked on all sides is that there is one eminently sensible solution that seems entirely practicable and do-able at this juncture in time. Soft Brexit (Norway model) wouldn't need even a second vote, and would sail through Parliament, and Brussels.  There would be minimal disruption or economic cost.  It would be entirely reasonable to hold another referendum in say 10 years; this time much better thought out and with clear options.  

 

If the result was Brexit, then that would be a clear mandate for an unequivocal, and permanent withdrawal from the EU.

 

Now, I await howls of derision from Brexiteers and Remainers alike.

 

 

The Norway model would work for me, I would be fine with that.  However I know that there are some remainers who wouldn't go for it.  I also think that there would be some leavers who would go for it too but again the numbers would be limited.   It has become much too personal for people now.  It is beyond doing the right thing for the country, especially as far as the politicians are concerned.  

[Stupooey]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

"I'm not sure they have changed their minds. Because nobody expected this result, many people admitted after the referendum that they had voted Leave purely as an anti-Government statement, a decision they regretted immediately afterwards."

 

Could you provide a link to above statement please?

This is one link. There are others, if you Google appropriately.

 

blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2016/10/24/brexit-is-not-the-will-of-the-british-people-it-never-has-been/

[dunroaming]

2 minutes ago, Stupooey said:

This is one link. There are others, if you Google appropriately.

 

blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2016/10/24/brexit-is-not-the-will-of-the-british-people-it-never-has-been/

It was much discussed on many programmes and in interviews at the time. 

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, Stupooey said:

This is one link. There are others, if you Google appropriately.

 

blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2016/10/24/brexit-is-not-the-will-of-the-british-people-it-never-has-been/

Thanks for the link but a 'blog' is only someone elses opinion.

[rixalex]

I'm not sure they have changed their minds. Because nobody expected this result, many people admitted after the referendum that they had voted Leave purely as an anti-Government statement, a decision they regretted immediately afterwards.
In addition, because of the pre-referendum opinion poll figures, many people, particularly Remainers (surveys since have all shown that most non-voters say they would have voted Remain, often by a ratio of about 2 to 1) did not bother to vote because the result seemed a foregone conclusion.
Incidentally, there is a very good reason the pollsters got it so wrong, but when I mentioned it in a previous thread it was pooh-poohed, even though it made absolute sense.

That's all fine but all you're doing is hypothesizing. It could also be hypothesized that there are many people who voted remain (and some who were on the fence), but who, having seen the way the EU has behaved, now feel we should get out. Where are the facts to prove any of this? There are none. Anectdotal stories is all there is, and polls that have been proven flawed by the referendum itself.

The only thing known for certain is the outcome of the referendum. Until such time as there's another one, that's the only true measure we have of public opinion.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

It was much discussed on many programmes and in interviews at the time. 

Yes and recall watching programs at the time that stated the opposite, its bit of 'she said, he said'

[dunroaming]

17 minutes ago, vogie said:

Yes and recall watching programs at the time that stated the opposite, its bit of 'she said, he said'

Yes but it was discussed and there were plenty of people with that opinion just as there were with opposing views.  It is all "he said, she said".  There are no "facts" either way.  You asked for statements but statements are just peoples opinions when you are comparing points of view.  I make statements all the time (as you well know ?)

[vogie]

1 minute ago, dunroaming said:

Yes but it was discussed and there were plenty of people with that opinion just as there were with opposing views.  It is all "he said, she said".  There are no "facts" either way.  You asked for statements but statements are just peoples opinions when you are comparing points of view.  I make statements all the time (as you well know ?)

You are 100% correct but a statement is worthless at the end of the day, it doesn't help any discussion if people say what they hope was the truth, at the end of the day we are all slightly biased. ?

 

[dunroaming]

7 minutes ago, vogie said:

You are 100% correct but a statement is worthless at the end of the day, it doesn't help any discussion if people say what they hope was the truth, at the end of the day we are all slightly biased. ?

 

In this case it is people saying what they felt about the result and their position over it.  Nothing to do with what they hoped was the truth.

 

Splitting hairs?  maybe 

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, Stupooey said:

Very powerful counter-argument there. Or are you waving the white one?

Argument? Must have missed that! 

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, Stupooey said:

I am always surprised when Brexit supporters bring up the name of Corbyn along with horror stories about how he would wreck, or even bankrupt, the country. Of course if Britain was out of the EU this would be a possibility, as he would only have the very limited powers of the House of Lords to hold him back over a possible five year term. On the other hand, if Britain was still in Europe such policies would soon fall foul of the Maastricht Treaty and the Stability and Growth Pact, and he would be pressurised into changing them.

Some Brexit and some remain supporters bring up the name of Corbyn but he's bot much to do with Brexit.

 

But yes, he would wreck and bankrupt the country, Brexit or not.

[Grouse]

7 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Some Brexit and some remain supporters bring up the name of Corbyn but he's bot much to do with Brexit.

 

But yes, he would wreck and bankrupt the country, Brexit or not.

If Corbyn was replaced Brexit would be finished

[nauseus]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

If Corbyn was replaced Brexit would be finished

That would wreck the country too, but in more ways than one.

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, dunroaming said:

I didn't vote for Brexit but at the time accepted it if the leave campaigners delivered what they promised and it was as easy and as straightforward as Liam Fox told us.  I didn't want it but I could see there were some positives if their claims were true and it wasn't all gloom and doom.  As time has gone by though all of those promises have been broken.  Instead of the leavers standing and shouting "Hey! This is not what we voted for!" they have decided to accept all the lies and bullsh*t.  That has changed my position , I think we should at least fight for the Brexit that people voted for.  I know (we all know now) that that cannot be achieved and never could.

 

The Norway model would work for me, I would be fine with that.  However I know that there are some remainers who wouldn't go for it.  I also think that there would be some leavers who would go for it too but again the numbers would be limited.   It has become much too personal for people now.  It is beyond doing the right thing for the country, especially as far as the politicians are concerned.  

Not ideal but I wouldn't mind that.

 

Doesnt help our manufactures, but hey, only 8% of the economy so who cares? At least we would have our fish 

[mommysboy]

22 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Some Brexit and some remain supporters bring up the name of Corbyn but he's bot much to do with Brexit.

 

But yes, he would wreck and bankrupt the country, Brexit or not.

Happening already though!

[Stupooey]

2 hours ago, vogie said:

Thanks for the link but a 'blog' is only someone elses opinion.

Yes, but he does quote his sources throughout. In this case it was an article in The Independent, whose Brexit coverage was more balanced than most (according to the Loughborough University Referendum media analysis).

[vogie]

1 minute ago, Stupooey said:

Yes, but he does quote his sources throughout. In this case it was an article in The Independent, whose Brexit coverage was more balanced than most (according to the Loughborough University Referendum media analysis).

Why didn't you link the Independent then, just a thought?

[stephenterry]

26 minutes ago, nauseus said:

That would wreck the country too, but in more ways than one.

Read this and digest the real post Brexit options facing the UK. As should all UK citizens. 

https://policyscotland.gla.ac.uk/blog-sir-ivan-rogers-speech-text-in-full/

[My Thai Life]

I've had the pleasure of working in most EU countries, and some non-EU European countries. Enjoyed every one of them.

 

I like the German model because it is based on an attempt to get government, business, workers, and bankers working together. It takes a longer term view than the British model (if there can be said to be one).

 

The UK has been riven between left and right, upper and lower, for the whole of my life. And inside or outside of the EU that won't change.

 

Just a passing thought.

 

 

[Stupooey]

9 minutes ago, vogie said:

Why didn't you link the Independent then, just a thought?

Because the blog seemed to cover some other points I had raised, so I reckoned posters could choose the appropriate link. In general I try to avoid posting individual links as I don't like posting supposedly factual information unless it has been corroborated by multiple sources.

[mommysboy]

Ironically then, another solution that seems to be acceptable to many leavers and remainers alike would be just to exit no deal.  It saves having to deal with that crooked bunch in Brussels who wouldn't know a free trade deal from a pile of horse dung. 

 

If so, lets get on with it- take the initiative.

[adammike]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

Some Brexit and some remain supporters bring up the name of Corbyn but he's bot much to do with Brexit.

 

But yes, he would wreck and bankrupt the country, Brexit or not.

The reason Corbyn is a brexiteer is because he wants to dish out subsidys to support his vision of nationalisation and that's against EU rules.

[mommysboy]

Just now, adammike said:

The reason Corbyn is a brexiteer is because he wants to dish out subsidys to support his vision of nationalisation and that's against EU rules.

Amongst other reasons.  The whole attraction is that it will allow UK to determine its own course.  In fact, that is the one redeeming feature.

[billd766]

4 hours ago, Stupooey said:

This is one link. There are others, if you Google appropriately.

 

blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2016/10/24/brexit-is-not-the-will-of-the-british-people-it-never-has-been/

There is a little bit on the bottom of that link that says:

 

This post represents the views of the author and not those of the Brexit blog, nor the LSE. Image credit:(CC BY 2.0).

 

In reality it the opinion of one person and not necessarily the opinion of the electorate in general.

[billd766]

1 hour ago, Stupooey said:

Yes, but he does quote his sources throughout. In this case it was an article in The Independent, whose Brexit coverage was more balanced than most (according to the Loughborough University Referendum media analysis).

 

The independent is not in any way balanced coverage at all.

 

It is biased to Remain as the Express and the Mail are biased to many Leavers.