BREAKING NEWS British Embassy statement on income letters: Officials knew about problems in May and say that US nationals will also be affected

[Odysseus123]

2 minutes ago, blackhorse said:

The oz embassy requires no confirmation letters from anyone
You state your income and sign the stat dec. Done deal

Next!

Not any more.

And you ain't Australian anyway..

Edited October 10, 2018 by Odysseus123

[blackhorse]

Really?
How are the weeds 'midst the pumpkins?

?

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, korkenzieher said:

What is unacceptable in the B. Embassy action, is that if they knew from May, then they should have announced it with sufficient lead time so that those who need to change things would have time to do so.

 

Anyone applying after the cut-off date for embassy letters, doesn't have enough time to 'season' a deposit. There's a window from basically 12 December until 90 days after the original announcement -well into January, even if you act today - where it is not possible to cover yourself.

 

That, in my opinion is disgraceful from BE.

Well they are not stopping the letters immediately and income letters are good for SIX MONTHS after issue so I basically think you're wrong. Plenty of notice in that. But I don't think they should be cutting off the letters at all and also they certainly should not be telling their nationals to try an income method WITHOUT the required letters before Thai immigration has officially changed that requirement. Which they have not. 

[rayw]

17 minutes ago, GruenJD said:

 

Thai Immigration instigated this change in rule enforcement.  The Embassies are saying that they cannot be responsible for verification (for reasons stated above) AND had never really been doing anything but stamping documents before with a Notary Stamp to verify ID and Statement of the Signatory.

Of course they can in this day and age of digital technology.  In the UK we have a tax code which is directly related to your tax free allowance.  This allowance is reduced by exactly the amount of UK state pension you receive (currently about £130 a week or higher in some cases where extra has been paid in during your working life).  The pensioner then pays income tax on his other pensions (if any) on a PAYE basis so his total pension income decalred should be easily verifiable and confirmed through Goverment networks to check the real income the UK national has.  It would not be difficult or very time consumming at all if properly set up with the UK treasury department and/or inland revenue and made very easy if the applicants tax reference number or NHS number was required to be quoted on the income confirmation letter application form.  

 

So can the UK Embassy in BKK confirm why they cannot do what is outlined above and save causing all this hardship and stress to the many UK retired expats here in Thailand (and probably elsewhere too) who have been legally fully complying with the Thai visa requirements??  It is not unreasonable to give this pretty minimalistic support for it's nationals, most of whom are still paying UK tax on their total pension income too so hardly unreasonable to expect some needed service supplied back to them.

[ukrules]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

While telling their own nationals where to go at the same time.

The current U.S. response if it does stand sounds the much more reasonable one. 

Issue the REQUIRED letters and say no guarantees, your move Thailand. 

They've never been too bothered about what British people think.

 

If the Thais stop accepting letters which don't offer whatever level of guarantee they deem appropriate in that week then it won't matter if you have a letter or not. This appears to be all about the guarantee, does the US embassy guarantee the income level? I don't think so.

 

Ignoring the issue won't make it go away. The embassy was correct to do this.

[fforest1]

29 minutes ago, thailand49 said:

I agree, and I'm not a Brit, but from what I'm reading and know a number of Brits and it seems to me the government has been sticking it up the ass of Brit expats here for sometime blaming their economic problems on those who made the country? 

Aside from the two countries mentioned and haven't heard a thing from the U.S. regarding this issue Brit embassy has been reducing their services so what is their job except to spend the government money on themselves.

It doesn't seem other Embassy are having problems doing the verification or not! If I was representing the Embassy as I know Thailand if Big Joke asked I would respond yes doing the best we can, end of the story why get all Anal retentive. They can't even fix a road you actually think they are going to come in and do an actual audit? 

Whether it affects me or not I suggest Brits get together to set up a date and get signs and march outside the Brit Embassy I be sure to join you guys. 

The British government does not have time for expats...They are to busy laying out the red carpet and giving loads of benefits to all the new immigrants arriving in England...  

[thailand49]

When it comes to the U.S. Embassy doing the verification or not I seriously doubt if any Embassy can actually take the time to do all the research or verification. As I already posted I would like how many expats regardless of the country the numbers of those having presented a letter and lived here that are causing problems for their government that would cause a Thai official to bring up such a topic unless they are searching for a new source of income? If I was an Ambassador on top of the issue I wouldn't give him the time of the day and respond.

Maybe that same question should be asked to the Chinese Embassy who they seem to go far beyond to kiss their Chinese ass and letting in all the triads investors to buy up all the Condos in Bangkok without enforcing the 51 percent Thai ownership rule. Common sense would tell you there isn't enough Thais that could afford the number of development being built and sold at the prices they are affording.

[blackhorse]

Not any more.
And you ain't Australian anyway..

Nonsense I just got a stat dec one month ago.

They did actually change the requirements last year but did a backflip. Sorry to hear your going through all the trouble

I'm Ozzie "gday mate" see?

[ukrules]

2 hours ago, webfact said:

they confirmed that they expect the embassy to verify all sources of income of British Nationals requesting an income letter. 

That's the problem right there. The Thais are quite happy to audit someones bank account merely to issue a six month tourist visa, they're never going to get western embassies to do this.

 

[Odysseus123]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

Well they are not stopping the letters immediately and income letters are good for SIX MONTHS after issue so I basically think you're wrong. Plenty of notice in that. But I don't think they should be cutting off the letters at all and also they certainly should not be telling their nationals to try an income method WITHOUT the required letters before Thai immigration has officially changed that requirement. Which they have not. 

They have no choice.

 

I am not British  but have been privately advised that the 'Stat Declaration' is just about finished.

 

Stop blaming any country.

[blackhorse]

They have no choice.
 
I am not British  but have been privately advised that the 'Stat Declaration' is just about finished.
 
Stop blaming any country.

Don't tell me.. You married an immigration officer right? Because that's the only way you would know

Why keep spreading BS? what joy does it bring

[amse]

Nothing like working hard all your life to have a nice retirement income which would satisfy Thai immigration for a retirement visa, then your home country stabs you in the back and refuses to verify what is rightfully yours. Just another way to try to keep you in your home country and destroy your dream of Paradise.

[how241]

Many using this income letter either didn't have the necessary funds or didn't feel comfortable leaving the funds sit in a Thai bank. I feel Thai banks are safe but they are a little behind recently on raising up the interest rates.  Ally bank now offers 1.9%  on a liquid saving account. Thai banks are giving 1.35% , at most on liquid savings accts.

[thailand49]

9 minutes ago, fforest1 said:

The British government does not have time for expats...They are to busy laying out the red carpet and giving loads of benefits to all the new immigrants arriving in England...  

I understand and support your feeling it seems the U.S. was heading the same direction until Trump got elected, I didn't vote for the guy my parents were immigrants but know there are got to be borders and you got to earn what you receive. American politician regardless of the party ever say in front of me or use the word entitlement I will go more than postal on the money f--ker! and that would include Trump!

It seems based on the history of Thai government they are more interest in ending the declaration since it doesn't bring them any money having to use the bank method letter or showing or forcing everyone to open Thai bank accounts and have their pension deposited into their banks is more of the goal or objective.

Edited October 10, 2018 by thailand49

[Greenhill]

I used to send 3 months original UK bank statements, showing my monthly income and I cannot see why the Brit Emb. cannot still verify these, as they don't have to check any further - unless they think original Lloyds Bank statements would not be telling the truth?! 

[sqwakvfr]

As an American I am cofused?  So The British Embassy is now announcing the future actions of the American Embassy? I have an appointment next to get the Income Affidavit.  Should I cancel my appointment?  

Edited October 10, 2018 by sqwakvfr
Grammar

[smedly]

5 minutes ago, blackhorse said:

The oz embassy requires no confirmation letters from anyone
You state your income and sign the stat dec. Done deal

Next!

exactly, it is you who are making the claim of income not them confirming it, that is a huge difference to what the BE were doing

 

The rub is that when a person from US NZ AU CAN go to get their extension with the letter/declaration/Affidavit - Immigration may well say we need to see the evidence of your claimed income with 100% of applicants, what this would effectively do is make the Embassy letter pointless as the Thai Immigration would not be accepting it anyway

 

IMO the whole (Income proof) process is flawed and needs a review and some radical changes that would apply equally to everyone, also worth noting that I don't spend anywhere near 65k baht here per month - more like 30-40k a month

 

It should be enough to show your home bank statements or pension statements then all this stupid nonsense would stop 

[Greenhill]

1 hour ago, Tiredofglasshalfemptyexpat said:

If you've less than 800k to your name you should be home anyway with your home state nannying you.  

But not everyone trusts Thai banks to keep their 800,000 safe.

[connda]

This should be fun to watch.  Sorta like a slow-motion train-wreak as the Thai government and the UK/US governments put their retirees into a Catch-22 bind. 
Thai government: "We only accept embassy notarized confirmation of income.  If you don't have 800K to deposit - go home."
UK/US governments: "We will not issue an embassy notarized confirmation of income.  If you don't have 800K to deposit - come home! We'll take good care of you.  Honest."

[sqwakvfr]

The US Government has not said anything on this issue yet.  

[Expattaff1308]

38 minutes ago, Jono136 said:

Re transfer fees - you can use keycurrency.co.uk for a (negotiable) margin on rate and no fees if you want a monthly transfer. 

 

Re monthly pension transfers - does anyone know whether these are considered "income" for Revenue Dept purposes?

 

Re original post - how can the British Embassy attest with integrity to something it cannot verify? How could Immigration place any reliance on such a document with integrity? The past practice brings discredit to both parties. Claiming it's mere bureaucracy is to say that rules don't matter; we like them when they protect us!

Do you honestly believe the DWP & Civil Service Pension falsify the amounts to meet my requirement for The Thai Immigration

[thailand49]

45 minutes ago, GruenJD said:

I have seen a number of comment posts that seem to think that this mess is all the fault of the British Embassy.  But not exactly. Back in May of this year, Thai Immigration met with representatives of several Foreign Embassies in Bkk. Thai Immigration officials insisted that the Foreign Embassies verify the accuracy of the financial information in the Embassy Income Letter / Sworn Income Affidavit / Statutory Declaration., etc.  This was not a new rule, but as often is the case - it was just not enforced. They had just begun to insist on complying with an old never before enforced rule. 

 

For at least 10-12 years or longer the Foreign Embassies have been proccessing these documents that were to be used in processing "retirement" and "marriage" Extensions of Stay for Expats. But they were in no way verifying the accuracy of the financial content of the submissions Even though the British Embassy did require bank or pension documents, etc. to be presented. However, these documents were never really examined more than in a cursory manner.  At the American Embassy no documents in evidence were never required - ever!

Bottomline to this Thai Immigration Officials had to have known all these years that no validation or verification was being done.  To pretend otherwise is balderdash. Foreign Embassies do not routinely verify, validate or investigate documents - especially repetitive documents as these financial submissions. Most times only the ID of the Signatory is checked and the Expat swears the document is correct and true (at least at the American Embassy - I know first hand).

Embassies do not have an investigative element to verify the content of hundreds and thousands of documents each year.  To do so would be a big burden. 

Thai Immigration instigated this change in rule enforcement.  The Embassies are saying that they cannot be responsible for verification (for reasons stated above) AND had never really been doing anything but stamping documents before with a Notary Stamp to verify ID and Statement of the Signatory.

You are correct but if you can't believe the Embassy who are you going to believe? 

Are any of the foreign Embassy asking or telling the Thai government your stamp is worthless whenever it appears before a foreign Embassy?

 

[blackhorse]

As an American I am cofused?  So The British Embassy is now announcing the future actions of the American Embassy? I have an appointment next to get the Income Affidavit.  Should I cancel my appointment?  

"Yes we are aware that the US embassy will also be stopping their notarised income letter.  Please contact them directly for further information"

I can't see why they would make that up. It's also very strange they would volunteer that information before an announcement

[smedly]

2 minutes ago, connda said:

This should be fun to watch.  Sorta like a slow-motion train-wreak as the Thai government and the UK/US governments put their retirees into a Catch-22 bind. 
Thai government: "We only accept embassy notarized confirmation of income.  If you don't have 800K to deposit - go home."
UK/US governments: "We will not issue an embassy notarized confirmation of income.  If you don't have 800K to deposit - come home! We'll take good care of you.  Honest."

They weren't confirming anything anyway, Thai immigration are correct, what they now need to do as I said in my previous post is review the whole income proof process as it was not fit for purpose anyway 

[David in the north]

From my limited experience, the UK embassy in Bangkok is not fit for purpose. They are neither civil nor do they provide a service.

[Arkady]

I am not affected by  this but I lament the further reduction of legalisation services the British Consular Section is willing to provide to its citizens and this was an important service that affects British residents.  They could have put the ball in Immigration's court by saying they would continue to verify the income based on presentation of a pension confirmation letter that looks genuine, pointing out that UK citizens could be prosecuted in the UK for making false declarations at the Consulate. Then it would be up to Immigration to say that it refuses to accept the letters.  It looks as if other farang embassies are willing to continue issuing the letters and they have probably also received the same pressure from Immigration by now, if they approached the Brits in May.

 

The Consular Section used to be a helpful 'can-do' resource for British citizens where you could show up without an appointment, be waived in by friendly Gurkha guards and get many things without any specified restrictions , not to mention getting a new British passport with a friendly vice consul signing as counter signatory. I recall getting company documents of British Virgins Islands company legalised there, as well as the translation of my Thai marriage certificate and several other documents.  Nowadays you need an appointment and they will cancel your appointment, if you want anything not on their list which is as follows:

Services we provide in Thailand

Consular staff can provide the following services only:

• affirmation of marital status
• affirmation of residency
• certified copy of British passport and British driving licence
• Consular Letter showing income for Thai Immigration – postal or email application until 12 December 2018 only
• letter of “no objection” for adoption in Thailand
• ED visa letter for internships in Thailand
• visa transfer letter

[rayw]

19 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

You seem to missing the point that lots of folks don't have their pension payments deposited into Thai banks for a variety of reasons, and instead have them put into their home country accounts.

 

Lots of entities won't do direct deposits into foreign banks. And, even if the pensioner wants to do the transfer themselves, doing an international wire into Thailand every month just to satisfy Immigration is likely to cost hundreds of dollars in banks fees per year.

Well not actually correct nowadays.  Transfers are very cheap or even free today.  For example using Barclays Bank in the UK with their Internet Banking service you can transfer Sterling direct to your Thai Bank Account for free with just a flat £8 charge levied by the Thai end of the transfer, and this is for whatever amount you want to transfer up to a very high limit I believe that is far in exces than even the highest of normal UK monthly pension income.

 

Yes it used to cost a flat £25 or more plus bank charges this end, but those days have ended now using Internet Banking. With the expanding mainstream banking use of highly efficient Block Chain technology (as used with crypto currencies) money transfers across the World are becoming virtually free and almost instantaneous. 

[newnative]

The U.S. Embassy has never actually verified income.  I remember the first time I did my income 'verifcation' I brought printouts of my monthly pension income to show the embassy staff and they didn't even glance at it.  They basically just okayed whatever I put as my income on their form.   

[Odysseus123]

5 minutes ago, connda said:

This should be fun to watch.  Sorta like a slow-motion train-wreak as the Thai government and the UK/US governments put their retirees into a Catch-22 bind. 
Thai government: "We only accept embassy notarized confirmation of income.  If you don't have 800K to deposit - go home."
UK/US governments: "We will not issue an embassy notarized confirmation of income.  If you don't have 800K to deposit - come home! We'll take good care of you.  Honest."

Yours is a very good post because it is "like a very slow motion train wreck"

 

But don't blame it on the embassies,

[yellowboat]

2 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

"...Earlier this week the Canadian Embassy in Bangkok confirmed no change to its current process..."

 

Great to be Canadian, eh?

 

My sympathies to the Brits and the Yanks..

Why ?  Maybe it is time to move on,  and treat this place with the little regard it deserves.   Time to smell some roses elsewhere. 

Edited October 10, 2018 by yellowboat