I don't understand the logic of Thai Immigration

[natway09]

Have you been filing a tax return each year showing this income ?

I know my situation is a little different but I purchased a property with partly

generated income in Thailand. Sale was stopped until I presented last 21 years income tax 

returns. Job done

[moe666]

2 hours ago, chicowoodduck said:

TIT= Thai Is Thailand.....sounds like you are on a slippery slope out of LOS?......enjoy the ride while you still can.....woo, woo....????

from what my agent told me was if you are claiming your income comes from off shore the US or where ever they want to see proof of that income matching your letter from your Embassy or Consulate. No they have not created a new rule, the last rule in the list that we must meet says the IO can ask for additional information to satisfy their need for proof.

[alanrchase]

I could see a problem of just producing a Thai bank book or bank statements showing a monthly deposit of 65k. Who is to say that the same 65k is not just being recirculated through the account every month? Not really proof of an actual monthly income of 65k.

[FritsSikkink]

2 hours ago, Time Traveller said:

 

 

I don't know what business school you went to, or where you got your law degree from, but your numerous comments are about the most clueless, ill-informed and misleading advice on this forum. 

 

Owning a property to rent out is NOT working. It's what is referred to as passive or unearned income. Hence you do not need to register a business, nor require a work permit. Just the same way as you do not need a work permit to invest in a Mutual fund, or deposit money in the bank. These too are sources of passive income that are NOT considered to be working. Immigration have already ruled on this.

How many times do we have to explain that on this forum? I can only think that broke farangs who are jealous toward those that actually own assets and don't need to work, keep trying to raise the old Work Permit complaint to give them the feeling of schadenfreude 

 

Learn to read.

Renting out 1 property isn't a problem. The OP rents out several properties, then it becomes a business. 

"Immigration have already ruled on this."

You don't even understand that immigration handles visa's and the labor department handles work permits. 

Edited October 12, 2018 by FritsSikkink

[markpont]

Maybe its because the ownership of the properties (unless the Op is a citizen or has a company) is in a Thai name and therefore the income does not technically belong to him.

[jak2002003]

2 hours ago, Suradit69 said:

So you're saying your decision to live in Thailand was emotional or financial and lacked a well thought-out logical basis. Don't beat yourself up. 

I was just making a joke.  But you are correct.  It was mostly emotional reasons I chose to live here.  I am not a logical person... so I guess that's why I fit in here so well and have a lovely life.

 

 

[Thaidream]

This is a difficult one- but I do know many foreigners own Condos and rent them out. If a person has employed a rental agent- that agent does the management; collect the money etc and turns over money to the owner.  Since this is income made in Thailand- I would guess Thai tax has to be paid.

 

Then the issue becomes- will  Thai Imm accept income generated in Thailand to a business owner as meeting the Immigration requirement.

 

In the Ops case- it may be easier to arrange a 3 month loan of 800K- place it in a bank for 3 months- pay the lender the interest and after the prescribed 3 months pay off the loan.

[Thailand]

I was told by an agency with the initials ATV that income to supplement pension etc income to meet the min 65K  per month immigration requirements should come from overseas. 

Paid in to your bank book it would show as foreign transactions ,and along with the bank letter and as such should satisfy immigration requirements without the need for the dead duck of embassy certification.

That said, clarification of what is required by immigration should come from them.

[Spidey]

19 hours ago, scottiejohn said:

monthly credits of 65000Bht

No. Monthly credits of 65000baht can only be submitted via an embassy letter.

[GeorgeCross]

59 minutes ago, moe666 said:

from what my agent told me was if you are claiming your income comes from off shore the US or where ever they want to see proof of that income matching your letter from your Embassy or Consulate. No they have not created a new rule, the last rule in the list that we must meet says the IO can ask for additional information to satisfy their need for proof.

 

i guess it never occurred to immigration that they only need the proof not the letter then..

[HHTel]

Foreigners may receive profits from a business, so they can invest in Thai businesses, but cannot be involved in any way with the day-to-day running without a work permit specific to that business and its location.

[sfokevin]

4 hours ago, DPKANKAN said:

If you are legit and have 65,000 a month coming in then why use a visa agent???

You must not be familiar with how CM Immigration works?... There are any number of legitimate reasons to use an agent - Number ONE is not being an early riser... 

[Tchooptip]

21 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

You live here for 18 years and you still look for logic which obviously does not exist in Thailand.

How did you survive the last 18 years?

 

"How did you survive the last 18 years?" 

By holding his breath, walking on tiptoe, doing his best not to needlessly meet any Thai's gaze and not talking too loud like many westerners and in fact, it worked very well ... at least until today...it's called the ghost strategy 

Edited October 12, 2018 by Tchooptip
forget something

[lensta]

I would suggest that you send the money that you earn from your rentals out of the country and back in again. The new "Dee Transfer Company" only charges 150 Baht and the transfer can be done on your mobile Phone.

[UdeBoCM]

21 hours ago, FigaroLucowski said:

go to jail for renting properties in thailand as a farang?

You are not supposed to own property in the first place. Keep a [very] low profile about this.

[Seadog48]

17 hours ago, Trujillo said:

The OP said: 

 

"I own property in Chiang Mai,..."

 

Unless you are a Thai citizen with an ID card, you don't own property here. I assume you mean that your girlfriend or wife owns "your" property. 

 

It does, however, seem to run counter to the spirit of the granting of a retirement visa, ie, you are supposed to be living off of your retirement funds (earned not from anything you did in Thailand). 

 

By the way, you are never too old to move somewhere else. 

A foreigner can own condo units and that would be considered as "owning property" or a home under  corporation ownership.  As for the spirit of being granted a retirement visa... that does not exclude a retired person from investing in the Thai economy via stock market, condos or a business.  What say you?

[MikeN]

47 minutes ago, UdeBoCM said:

You are not supposed to own property in the first place. Keep a [very] low profile about this.

A condo is property too, and subject to the 49% total ownership  rule you are allowed to own a condo, it is land you are not allowed to own.

Renting one or two condos out through an agency would be passive income, but it becomes a bit greyer if you have the six or so required to make 65000 a month income especially if you cut out the middleman at the agency and lease them out directly. Then it becomes a business and you are  working ...?

Which of course you are not allowed to do on a retirement visa .....

 

Edited October 12, 2018 by MikeN

[scottiejohn]

2 hours ago, Spidey said:

No. Monthly credits of 65000baht can only be submitted via an embassy letter.

Wrong! see the following extract from the British Embassy.

 

"British Nationals should now demonstrate that they have an amount of at least 800,000 THB in an account in Thailand for no less than three months prior to the visa application, or a monthly income of at least 65,000 THB transferred into an account in Thailand for a retirement visa. For a marriage visa, the amounts are at least 400,000 THB in an account in Thailand for no less than three months prior to the visa application, or a monthly income of at least 40,000 THB transferred into an account in Thailand. A bank statement should be used as the supporting document for obtaining a Thai retirement or marriage visa. If the British National doesn’t already have a bank account, they should open one and follow the steps above".

Edited October 12, 2018 by scottiejohn

[Jingthing]

5 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

Wrong! see the following extract from the British Embassy.

 

"British Nationals should now demonstrate that they have an amount of at least 800,000 THB in an account in Thailand for no less than three months prior to the visa application, or a monthly income of at least 65,000 THB transferred into an account in Thailand for a retirement visa. For a marriage visa, the amounts are at least 400,000 THB in an account in Thailand for no less than three months prior to the visa application, or a monthly income of at least 40,000 THB transferred into an account in Thailand. A bank statement should be used as the supporting document for obtaining a Thai retirement or marriage visa. If the British National doesn’t already have a bank account, they should open one and follow the steps above".

Thai immigration does not accept such applications without an embassy income letter. British embassy doesn't make Thai immigration policy. Maybe that will change, but not yet. It was irresponsible to give that advice before such a change actually happens. 

[Skeptic7]

My understanding has always been that income must come from one's "home country" or at very least outside of Thailand. Below is a pic that was sent to me from a friend a few years ago. It is old and certainly is not an official document, but the actual income verification affidavit downloaded from the US Embassy BKK website clearly states...'from sources in the United States'. See 2nd clip below...

 

 

[Lacessit]

The OP says he doesn't understand the logic of Thai Immigration. He's joining a very long line of farangs.

Sometimes one just has to do what they say, because there is no logic. Just rules.

[NancyL]

I brought in 800,000 baht many years ago and have since moved it around many bank accounts, chasing good interest rates.  The current bankbook does not show foreign source. Now, when I show my bankbook to Chiang Mai Immigration, they don't ask if the money originated from outside the country, they just want to know that the balance remained above 800,000 baht for the previous three months.

 

In fact, I sometimes raise suspicion because the money is untouched from year-to-year.  What is my source of money to live? I am asked.  Hubby's pensions, I say, whipping out the bankbook for our joint account with a page open, showing a mid-six figure balance and its very active history.  They just wave it away.   I hope it goes this smoothly in February. 

[Russell17au]

The only ones that need to show their income coming in from overseas is those that are using the 65,000/40,000baht income per month system as NO foreign embassy can give a letter to verify any income that comes from a different country. If your income is coming from USA, UK and Thailand then you need a letter from both the USA and UK embassies plus proof of your Thai income. It is because of people cheating on these systems that has caused all these problems. Those that are using the 800,000/400,000baht in the bank system, you only need the letter from the bank. It appears that Chiang Mai is randomly picking on US citizens and asking for more proof of income on the 65,000/40,000baht income per month system, which is what they are entitled to do because of the wording on the bottom of the income letter.

[Thailand]

29 minutes ago, NancyL said:

I brought in 800,000 baht many years ago and have since moved it around many bank accounts, chasing good interest rates.  The current bankbook does not show foreign source. Now, when I show my bankbook to Chiang Mai Immigration, they don't ask if the money originated from outside the country, they just want to know that the balance remained above 800,000 baht for the previous three months.

 

In fact, I sometimes raise suspicion because the money is untouched from year-to-year.  What is my source of money to live? I am asked.  Hubby's pensions, I say, whipping out the bankbook for our joint account with a page open, showing a mid-six figure balance and its very active history.  They just wave it away.   I hope it goes this smoothly in February. 

Subsequent extensions of stay do not require the lump sum to be shown as  being from overseas sources.

 

Extensions of stay based on combinations of lump sum and monthly income, or just monthly income (65K min) require that the monthly funds come from sources outside of Thailand.

 

Easy enough to show via the bank book the problem remains how immigration now interpret this without embassy verification of some sort. It could be simple, or it could turn out to be a nightmare with only the 800K+ being the only acceptable form of funding.

Immigration need to address this yesterday.

[sfokevin]

It would be nice to only need to show ones Thai bank statements with monthly foreign wire transfers in of more than 65k/month... This would save the bother & $50 that the US Consul charges for income letter! And no worry of their eyes glazing over while trying to read ones tax returns and supporting documents!...

[Russell17au]

5 minutes ago, Thailand said:

Subsequent extensions of stay do not require the lump sum to be shown as  being from overseas sources.

 

Extensions of stay based on combinations of lump sum and monthly income, or just monthly income (65K min) require that the monthly funds come from sources outside of Thailand.

 

Easy enough to show via the bank book the problem remains how immigration now interpret this without embassy verification of some sort. It could be simple, or it could turn out to be a nightmare with only the 800K+ being the only acceptable form of funding.

Immigration need to address this yesterday.

No, Thai immigration do not have to address this matter, this problem has arose because the British Embassy is not going to issue letters of income after the 12 December 2018. Thai Immigration have not changed anything in the requirements that are needed. Thailand does not have to change anything to suit any foreigner that comes here. It is your responsibility to abide by what the Thai Immigration require not them abiding by what you want.

[Thailand]

1 minute ago, Russell17au said:

No, Thai immigration do not have to address this matter, this problem has arose because the British Embassy is not going to issue letters of income after the 12 December 2018. Thai Immigration have not changed anything in the requirements that are needed. Thailand does not have to change anything to suit any foreigner that comes here. It is your responsibility to abide by what the Thai Immigration require not them abiding by what you want.

Yes they do or do you know if immigration are going to accept a bank book showing monthly income to meet the criteria without an embassy verification which is currently a requirement?

 

If they are not going to accept that then the only option is to use the 800K lump sum method so, but it is something that can only come from immigration, or is there another source? 

[Russell17au]

1 minute ago, Thailand said:

Yes they do or do you know if immigration are going to accept a bank book showing monthly income to meet the criteria without an embassy verification which is currently a requirement?

 

If they are not going to accept that then the only option is to use the 800K lump sum method so, but it is something that can only come from immigration, or is there another source? 

No they do not. Since when do you have the right to demand that the Thai Immigration change their requirements to suit you. Get over yourself, you do not have that power. Instead of trying to dictate to the Thai Immigration go and dictate to YOUR government that has change what they are doing. This is Thailand and it is Thailand law. Get onto your own government and get them to change back so that they comply with Thai Immigration Law. It is simple, just get your government to issue a Statutory Declaration that is signed by you. That is accepted by Thai Immigration because that is what many other countries use and they are not changing anything.

[Thailand]

4 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

No they do not. Since when do you have the right to demand that the Thai Immigration change their requirements to suit you. Get over yourself, you do not have that power. Instead of trying to dictate to the Thai Immigration go and dictate to YOUR government that has change what they are doing. This is Thailand and it is Thailand law. Get onto your own government and get them to change back so that they comply with Thai Immigration Law. It is simple, just get your government to issue a Statutory Declaration that is signed by you. That is accepted by Thai Immigration because that is what many other countries use and they are not changing anything.

I do not need to get any declaration from anyone as I use the lump sum method, and have done for many years and do not need to get over myself.many others do not and have to use other methods.

Where am I am demanding immigration do my bidding?Simply saying that some sort of directive needs to come from immigration so that those who have used the monthly income method with embassy certification know where they stand or do you suggest people just roll up in December to see what is acceptable or not?

If there is no directive of some sort from immigration, who are obviously aware of the situation, then there will be some serious consequences for may expats most of whom are pensioners.

[scottiejohn]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Thai immigration does not accept such applications without an embassy income letter. British embassy doesn't make Thai immigration policy. Maybe that will change, but not yet. It was irresponsible to give that advice before such a change actually happens. 

The Brit Embassy is NOT changing Thai Imm policy.  The option of seasoned and or a mix of such has always been there.

 

Extract from the British Embassy

"British Nationals should show evidence of minimum funds for their visa type by showing a Thai bank statement and/or bank book. This is not a new requirement and has always been an option for foreigners renewing retirement and marriage visas in Thailand".