Help from Canadians - Embassy Letter

[UniqueWord]

Hi Canadians,
The subject is the 'Embassy Letter' that so far, the Brit and now the US Embassy has said they will no longer provide after Jan 1 2019.  When this issue first surfaced a few weeks ago I put it in the category of 'pending resolution'.  With the notice from the US Embassy last week, coupled with the lack, from TI,  of any formal directive on how to proceed, the issue has been elevated above the noise level such that I am becoming concerned about my options.  It seems to me that firstly the Brit and US Embassies have firmly decided on their position and will not change, and secondly that the absence of any formal modification by TI of the current rules means that there will be none.
Currently I am using a British passport which I need to renew before my extension expires in May 2019.  But I am also a Canadian citizen and can obtain a new Canadian passport to replace my Brit passport.  So far Canada has stated that their policy with regard to 'Embassy Income Letters' will not change.
I would appreciate hearing from Canadians with any insight into how Canada might handle this issue in the future.
If I could be sure that Canada will not change it's policy then it would be beneficial for me to change to a Canadian passport.  However I have no idea how this would be handled by TI.  If anybody has information about the process of changing nationality at the time of extension of stay I'd like to hear about it.
I feel that this issue is going to cause some suffering amongst Brits and Yanks alike, which may or may not be the intent of the Embassies or TI.  If I did not have the Canadian option then at this stage I also would be wondering about the future in LoS.
Cheers, UW.

[CharlieH]

You are being slightly premature. If your current is valid until May you have nothing to worry about for 18 months! and by that time a whole new set of challenges may have arisen or been resolved, who knows.

 

Take a step back, let things play out as you have plenty of time yet. ????

 

[UniqueWord]

May 2019 is 6 months, may be 7 tops from now.  In that time I have to get a new passport, Brit or CDN and get the Income letter or bank funds sorted.  Not a whole lot of time in any bureaucracy.

Cheers, UW.

[CharlieH]

If you get your income letter in December its good for 6 months, you can do your renewal in May and that takes you into April 2020.

18 months away.

[blackhorse]

Don't assume that every single embassy is going to be affected. Nobody knows if immigration even went further than the BE and USE
wait at least until the end of next week to see if any other embassy comes forward

[ramrod711]

The Canadian consulate is located just south of the Don Chan intersection with Mahidol rd. They are very helpful, 2 very nice ladies, only open from 09:00 to 12:00 weekdays. They do require proof of income before issuing a letter. I have used pension statements, bank statements and income tax statements. Good luck

[UniqueWord]

CharlieH,
Thanks for taking the time to try to put my worst fears to rest.  I should explain more:
I receive an annuity from the US which is what my 'income letter' is based upon.  The income tax statement for the previous year (IRS Form 1042-S) I normally receive in early April of each year.  I use this to substantiate my request to the BE to issue my letter.  So currently I have no proof of my income for this year (2018) and therefore cannot request my 'income letter' for next year's application for an extension.
Also in a curiously evil coincidence I do not have the original of my 2017 Form 1042-S.  This is the result of the return EMS mail from the BE getting lost this year, which caused the BE to issue a replacement 'income letter' which I used for my extension this year.  However the original of the IRS Form for 2017 was never found.  To request an 'income letter' before 18 Dec 2018 based only upon a copy of the previous 2017 data and, if it was issued, use that to support my application next May I think would raise questions and possibly result in my extension being denied.
Taking the Canadian approach for the 2019 extension would obviate all these difficulties and do the procedure properly.  I am a firm believer in the 7P rule:
Proper Pror Planning Prevents Pi$s Poor Performance.
Cheers, UW.

[CharlieH]

3 minutes ago, UniqueWord said:

CharlieH,
Thanks for taking the time to try to put my worst fears to rest.  I should explain more:
I receive an annuity from the US which is what my 'income letter' is based upon.  The income tax statement for the previous year (IRS Form 1042-S) I normally receive in early April of each year.  I use this to substantiate my request to the BE to issue my letter.  So currently I have no proof of my income for this year (2018) and therefore cannot request my 'income letter' for next year's application for an extension.
Also in a curiously evil coincidence I do not have the original of my 2017 Form 1042-S.  This is the result of the return EMS mail from the BE getting lost this year, which caused the BE to issue a replacement 'income letter' which I used for my extension this year.  However the original of the IRS Form for 2017 was never found.  To request an 'income letter' before 18 Dec 2018 based only upon a copy of the previous 2017 data and, if it was issued, use that to support my application next May I think would raise questions and possibly result in my extension being denied.
Taking the Canadian approach for the 2019 extension would obviate all these difficulties and do the procedure properly.  I am a firm believer in the 7P rule:
Proper Pror Planning Prevents Pi$s Poor Performance.
Cheers, UW.

Thanks for taking time to explain in more detail and I understand your concern now. The "devil is in the details" ????

[thailand49]

The more it is discussed like the U.S. the greater chance it will be discontinued?  Just my 2 cents they are lurking not known to be problem solvers they usually react?

[blackhorse]

The more it is discussed like the U.S. the greater chance it will be discontinued?  Just my 2 cents they are lurking not known to be problem solvers they usually react?

If I were Canadian I wouldn't draw attention by discussing either. Keep your head down untill this blows over. Another day and no other embassy discontinuing anything..

[Suradit69]

18 hours ago, UniqueWord said:

firstly the Brit and US Embassies have firmly decided on their position and will not change, and secondly that the absence of any formal modification by TI of the current rules means that there will be none.

Not sure if you can assume there will be no changes on the part of the US or British embassy assuming Thai immigrations might rethink the feasibility of demanding guaranteed verified income certificates from embassies.   Could be further adjustments on both sides sometime in the future. Maybe not, but one should expect the unexpected. There could be a whole new set of things to worry about that no one anticipated.  Stay tuned.

 

Especially doubtful about your assumption that silence from Thai immigrations means there won't be "modification" or clarification at some point. Why should they jump just because of some comments from two foreign embassy?

 

They have unofficially made concessions, or at least clarifications, on when renewals can take place using letters dated before the end of 2018. 

 

I would far prefer that they take their time to come up with something clear and workable going forward than for them to rush into issuing conflicting, ambiguous, unworkable regulations.

 

18 hours ago, UniqueWord said:

So far Canada has stated that their policy with regard to 'Embassy Income Letters' will not change.
I would appreciate hearing from Canadians with any insight into how Canada might handle this issue in the future.

Whether or not an embassy will continue to issue a letter would be irrelevant if Thai immigrations will no longer accept embassy letters that do not state unequivocally that embassy staff have verified the income claim and will guarantee it to be true.

 

I doubt many embassies would be willing to offer that guarantee.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2018 by Suradit69

[blackhorse]

Whether or not an embassy will continue to issue a letter would be irrelevant if Thai immigrations will no longer accept embassy letters that do not state unequivocally that embassy staff have verified the income claim and will guarantee it to be true.
 
I doubt many embassies would be willing to offer that guarantee.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

That's a big if though.
We don't know what the terms of the meetings were. Did TI demand it or did they simply suggest verification is the way forward
All we do know is they are STILL accepting letters and will do so unless there is an announcement on TI website

[Suradit69]

18 minutes ago, blackhorse said:

That's a big if though.
We don't know what the terms of the meetings were. Did TI demand it or did they simply suggest verification is the way forward
All we do know is they are STILL accepting letters and will do so unless there is an announcement on TI website

Well according to the announcement of the US embassy:

 

Quote

The Royal Thai Government requires actual verification of income to certify visa applicants meet financial requirements for long-stay visas.  The U.S. government cannot provide this verification and will no longer issue the affidavits.

  The British embassy said something similar.

 

I don't think the Thai government would require one level of verification from two specific major western embassies and  give a wink and a nod to others.

 

A stat dec from the Australian embassy is not actual verification of income, for example. Don't know what the Canadian embassy letter claims it has done regarding claimed income.

 

Maybe the US and British embassies decided to make a combined reaction to the request to see what happens.

 

Good luck to all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2018 by Suradit69

[mrmillersr]

Just wait to see what happens at the next election.  Things will not likely get better for expats but they could end up getting a lot worse.  Get an anti-western regime in and no telling what they will require, especially as the decision will soon be who are you with - China or the USA and its few remaining allies?  I think I know where the Thais and many others are headed so I wouldn't make long term plans you're secure here.

 

[Suradit69]

6 minutes ago, mrmillersr said:

Just wait to see what happens at the next election.  Things will not likely get better for expats but they could end up getting a lot worse.  Get an anti-western regime in and no telling what they will require, especially as the decision will soon be who are you with - China or the USA and its few remaining allies?  I think I know where the Thais and many others are headed so I wouldn't make long term plans you're secure here.

 

Thailand (and other SEA countries) has benefited from the US vs Chinese spat at least insofar as offering a production and shipping location for Chinese goods that will circumvent the tariffs.

 

I doubt any Thai government would want to shut that down. The Thais have always been pragmatic when it comes to international relations. Certainly China is increasingly important, but aggravating the US (especially with a shoot from the hip US administration) would/could cost Thailand more than it gained ... at least in the short term.

 

 

[ramrod711]

4 hours ago, Suradit69 said:

Not sure if you can assume there will be no changes on the part of the US or British embassy assuming Thai immigrations might rethink the feasibility of demanding guaranteed verified income certificates from embassies.   Could be further adjustments on both sides sometime in the future. Maybe not, but one should expect the unexpected. There could be a whole new set of things to worry about that no one anticipated.  Stay tuned.

 

Especially doubtful about your assumption that silence from Thai immigrations means there won't be "modification" or clarification at some point. Why should they jump just because of some comments from two foreign embassy?

 

They have unofficially made concessions, or at least clarifications, on when renewals can take place using letters dated before the end of 2018. 

 

I would far prefer that they take their time to come up with something clear and workable going forward than for them to rush into issuing conflicting, ambiguous, unworkable regulations.

 

Whether or not an embassy will continue to issue a letter would be irrelevant if Thai immigrations will no longer accept embassy letters that do not state unequivocally that embassy staff have verified the income claim and will guarantee it to be true.

 

I doubt many embassies would be willing to offer that guarantee.

 

 

 

Quote

I checked this years letter from the Canadian consulate, doesn't sound like a guarantee but here is what it says;According to mr.--------- affadavit he receives a monthly pension income of-------.

The consulate absolutely demands proof of income and will not issue a letter without one. Perhaps immigration are aware of that, still doesn't sound like an airtight guarantee though.

 

 

 

 

 

[UniqueWord]

On 10/28/2018 at 10:02 PM, UniqueWord said:

 If anybody has information about the process of changing nationality at the time of extension of stay I'd like to hear about it.

May I re-iterate the above request, because it seems to me that TI is unlikely to look kindly upon a change of Nationality at the time of submitting an extension of stay application.  Maybe it would be simply to transfer details from one passport to another, the same as a passport renewal.  Or maybe not - Mr. Murphy and Mr. Sod would advocate the latter.  Anyone have any experience of doing this?

Cheers, UW.

[Banana7]

Have you been filing Canadian personal income tax forms annually? If not, they may not accept your evidence of income.

[UniqueWord]

5 hours ago, Suradit69 said:

I would far prefer that they take their time to come up with something clear and workable going forward than for them to rush into issuing conflicting, ambiguous, unworkable regulations.

Concur 100% with this preference.  But, as has been seen before, this is simply not the nature of the beast.  TI's reluctance to state a formal procedure for applicants to follow, or even comment that they recognize the problem and are working on it, leads to the conclusion that they're happy with the current rules.

Which are that the only legitimate path to an extension, without the 'income letter' is with 'money in a Thai Bank'.

The view that TI does not have to jump simply because two Embassies have decided to no longer issue 'income letters' is also valid; it's their country and they can and do make and enforce the rules. 

Just thinking....  UW.

[Suradit69]

14 minutes ago, UniqueWord said:

The view that TI does not have to jump simply because two Embassies have decided to no longer issue 'income letters' is also valid; it's their country and they can and do make and enforce the rules. 

Just thinking....  UW.

It does seem that at least the British and US embassies consulted (possibly conspired would be a better word) to provoke this situation by announcing that they would no longer issue letters.

 

Others may have decided to continue issuing letters on a you-can-take-them-or leave-them basis rather than appearing to play catch up with the Brits and Americans.

 

Diplomats are rarely entirely diplomatic even if they appear to smile a lot. Of course they themselves seldom suffer any consequences from the games they may be playing.

 

Really, whether or not a particular embassy will produce an income letter is unimportant if the document they hand out (sell) doesn't fulfill the verification requirements of Thai Immigrations.

 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2018 by Suradit69

[UniqueWord]

Hi Banana,

No, I haven't filed a CDN Tax Return since I left in 1981.  But because I haven't been a resident of Canada since then, I haven't needed to.  To be taxable, you need to be resident for more than a few months in any tax year, and I haven't been back since 1981, except for some holiday trips to see friends for not more than a few weeks in any year.

I don't see what bearing that might have on whether my US Tax Form which proves my Annuity Income would be accepted as genuine.  The British Embassy accepted it, so why not the Canadians?  Good point though, I think I will ask them before I commit to a strategy.

Cheers, UW.

[DJ54]

I don’t know the answer but perhaps a Canadian can advise how

the current income verification letter is obtained.

 

1) Having to present documents showing income.

or 

2) Swearing oath as the US does.

 

if number two good chance when Immigration gets around to Canadian Embassy then Canada would be in the box of not wanting to go the extra steps to verify and bow out.

 

This link might help you sort out some information. I’m American so already in the penalty box. Good luck

 

https://www.vfsglobal.ca/canada/thailand/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[gamb00ler]

15 hours ago, UniqueWord said:

Also in a curiously evil coincidence I do not have the original of my 2017 Form 1042-S.  This is the result of the return EMS mail from the BE getting lost this year, which caused the BE to issue a replacement 'income letter' which I used for my extension this year.  However the original of the IRS Form for 2017 was never found.  To request an 'income letter' before 18 Dec 2018 based only upon a copy of the previous 2017 data and, if it was issued, use that to support my application next May I think would raise questions and possibly result in my extension being denied.

I have in the past used the US IRS website to ask for copies of previous years tax information.  Unfortunately it doesn't come in a nice easily interpreted format, but all the pertinent information is included.  You probably can get the same either mailed to you or downloaded in PDF.  Your US tax info for 2017 is almost certainly available.

 

I hope you can get it all worked out without too much headache.

Edited October 29, 2018 by gamb00ler

[chicowoodduck]

Not a matter of if but when.....the Thai govt. will see to that quick smart....????

[EricTh]

Many British or Americans have dual passports in Australia or Canada.

 

So it defeats the purpose of UK and USA doing it but not the other two countries.
 

They might follow suit.

[pegman]

7 hours ago, DJ54 said:

I don’t know the answer but perhaps a Canadian can advise how

the current income verification letter is obtained.

 

1) Having to present documents showing income.

or 

2) Swearing oath as the US does.

 

if number two good chance when Immigration gets around to Canadian Embassy then Canada would be in the box of not wanting to go the extra steps to verify and bow out.

 

This link might help you sort out some information. I’m American so already in the penalty box. Good luck

 

https://www.vfsglobal.ca/canada/thailand/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Most definately #1. 

 

OP, something I don't get is if your proof of income this year is not good enough for the Brit embassy why do you think it would be good enough for the Canadian embassy? 

 

My buddy got this letter last week from the Canadian embassy:

"The Embassy of Canada continues providing a letter of income.
If there is any change in the future, information will be post in the Embassy's website : www.Thailand.gc.ca

In obtaining an income verification letter, please see the below information.
****
The Embassy of Canada provides a letter confirming pension income for Canadian citizen applying for a retirement visa, a marriage visa, and one year visa renewal to stay in Thailand."

 

Note that it says "....a letter confirming pension income....". That wording doesn't seem to lend itself to meaning income other than from pension sources. 

[Banana7]

11 hours ago, UniqueWord said:

Hi Banana,

No, I haven't filed a CDN Tax Return since I left in 1981.  But because I haven't been a resident of Canada since then, I haven't needed to.  To be taxable, you need to be resident for more than a few months in any tax year, and I haven't been back since 1981, except for some holiday trips to see friends for not more than a few weeks in any year.

I don't see what bearing that might have on whether my US Tax Form which proves my Annuity Income would be accepted as genuine.  The British Embassy accepted it, so why not the Canadians?  Good point though, I think I will ask them before I commit to a strategy.

Cheers, UW.

Does Canada Revenue Agency (CRA) agree with you being a non-resident? CRA has lots of rules and tests before they grant non-resident status - see their website for the details. If they haven't granted the status, and you have have not filed, then they might consider that you have not complied with tax law and fined you.

 

I've had friends who have tried to obtain non-resident status, being out of Canada for years, and CRA denied granting non-resident status.

 

Edited October 30, 2018 by Banana7

[Tony125]

On 10/28/2018 at 10:17 PM, UniqueWord said:

May 2019 is 6 months, may be 7 tops from now.  In that time I have to get a new passport, Brit or CDN and get the Income letter or bank funds sorted.  Not a whole lot of time in any bureaucracy.

Cheers, UW.

Is there any reason you don't carry both passports?  Many here in Thailand are dual citizens, some tri.

[DJ54]

18 hours ago, Suradit69 said:

Thailand (and other SEA countries) has benefited from the US vs Chinese spat at least insofar as offering a production and shipping location for Chinese goods that will circumvent the tariffs.

Witching production to Thailand vs China is workable. Shipping 

China to Thailand to US I think US has that loophole covered as

China on the flip side.

 

I do a little bit of work for a US $23 billion disty. When topic  of increased duties started they put together a team searching millions of parts to find viable manufactures to buy from outside US.

 

Aerospace parts won’t be easy to change because of EASA and FAA

approvals needed......

 

sorry got of the subject....hopefully Canada will continue proof income without jumping ship.

 

 

[UniqueWord]

4 hours ago, Banana7 said:

I've had friends who have tried to obtain non-resident status, being out of Canada for years, and CRA denied granting non-resident status.

I don't know what CRA think about me; I've never asked....

However I had a CDN passport vice a Brit one from 1981 (when I left) until 1999 when my last CDN passport expired and I got a Brit pp.  I've been using a Brit pp since then (1999).  In all the time I had a CDN pp I never heard squat from CRA about my residency status or any fines for missing filing taxes.  Plus I never made a secret about where I was.  Of course I had to renew my CDN pp a few times so I assume I should've heard something about it at those renewals.  It's an interesting thought though; they might say the onus is on the individual to ensure compliance with the law.

It will be what it will be - too late now I think for proactive action.

However, if you know of any way in which I can determine what CRA think about me, I'd be happy to hear it.

To reply to another poster who asked "Why not carry both passports?", I just couldn't see the advantage of it - they have a cost of being maintained, not only in money but time and effort in keeping track and renewing.

Thanks for your input.  Cheers, UW.