UK PM May's government loses contempt vote over Brexit legal advice

[StreetCowboy]

2 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Theoretical.  

There's nothing as practical as a good theory.

Ask Newton, or Einstein.

[adammike]

10 hours ago, rixalex said:

You mean, what about the rights of tebee, grouse and adam, and the other 1 or 2% of Brits living in the EU.

So we're back again to the wants and needs of this tiny proportion of the population.

Not that your wants and needs aren't important. But what you are doing is putting those wants and needs, like your desire to live and work freely and easily in the EU, ahead of Britain's need to have a fair immigration system that treats all immigrants equally.

Your freedom throughout the EU comes at a cost. It's a cost to people living in the UK who have immigrants turning up in their neighbourhood who haven't been vetted or tested at all, to see what useful contribution they will bring to society if they are planning on staying long term; and there is a cost to non EU immigrants who are being discriminated against since they are not also afforded this laissez faire open door attitude as well.

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I've found you all, been missing you,did I miss anything?

[adammike]

10 hours ago, malagateddy said:

Grouse..I tell the TRUTH ... I am not a trendy eu loving socialist like some people eho post on this Forum.
Like it or lump it..Blair and co. have a heck of a lot to answer for..opening floodgates re uncontrolled immigration..Iraq ..illegal war.
Now Grouse..have a laugh..google the Blair Miranda..read about blair..mandelson etc!!!

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We all know that about Blair a Labour prime minister taking the country to war was against everything that we trendy EU loving socialists stand for that's why he doesn't get a say in policy,also it's the reason we have the useless JC in charge.

[rixalex]

That's a very silly comment
 
Many would like to work, live and retire in the EU
 

Many might do but they actually don't do they, since only just over 1% of the population of Brits is living in the EU.

Protecting the rights of Brits to work, live and retire happens to be unsurprisngly seen as a matter of great importance to someone who works, lives and plans to retire in the EU, but how important is it really to the other 90% plus percent still living in Britain? Probably not that high on the list compared to some other issues.

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[rixalex]

What you don't realise is that the control levers and throttles are already in place. We don't use them. Most of our immigration is non EU now.

We all know the levers and throttles arguments is total bunkum. At the end of the day an open door is an open door. You either control immigrants before they come in, or you don't control them at all. Doing so is like trying to herd cats, and the idea that you can simply say cheerio to any immigrant who isn't pulling his or her weight is an utter joke, to anyone who has followed a few recent deportation cases.


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[Srikcir]

24 minutes ago, rixalex said:

since only just over 1% of the population of Brits is living in the EU.

Protection of a minority is always a challenge to a democratic nation that must give equal consideration to both the minority and majority.

That said, elections and referendums are won and lost sometimes by the smallest margins. So the minority is important in any democratic process. As far as the cited 1% without any cite, percentage might range from 2.7% to 5.4% based on a population of 66.7 million:

• "we estimate there are in fact 1.8 million to 3.6 million British people living part-time or full-time in the EU27 for whom Brexit is proving disruptive. This estimate is derived by taking the ONS’s [The Office for National Statistics] original estimate of 900,000 and multiplying it to take account of the estimated one (a conservative estimate) or two (a more radical estimate) out of every three people who are not on any register or census."

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/british-citizens-europe-residents-eu-brexit-a8332986.html

[rixalex]

Most of our immigration is non EU now.
 
Now call me a bigot (or a big 'ed if you prefer), but I am much more comfortable with having Europeans as neighbours because they come with built in similar social mores and customs.
 
Don't bother saying we can attract people from AUS, NZ, CAN and USA because it is a one way street. 10 x more Brits emigrate to Australia than come the other way. Those that do come gravitate to London.
 
No. The answer is use proper controls now. We can control immigration easily (just by continuing to be nasty). No point leaving just for that.
 
 

Re "most of immigration is non EU now".

Yes, but unlike EU immigration, all non EU immigration is tested and has to prove reasons for their visit. If they are visiting for work - the majority are not - they have to obtain a work visa, have to show things like a letter from employer, qualifications, finances. They can't simply come on a whim.

On the other hand, the majority of EU immigrants do come to Britain to work and unlike non EU immigrants, they can simply walk into the country and immediately enter the workforce.

It's an unfair system, both to immigrants who get discriminated against dependant on whether they were born inside or outside the EU, and it's unfair to the British communities who suddenly find themselves living next to people whose history is totally unknown.

On your point about being more comfortable with Europeans than Asians or Africans, that's a personal matter for you about where you choose to live and what circles you travel in, but in terms of that sort of backward outdated attitude playing any role in Britain's immigration policy, I find the idea abhorrent in the extreme.

For the remainers adamant that there is no bigotry on their side of the fence, take note.


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[sandyf]

11 hours ago, baboon said:

But Bill, the UK government wouldn't spend any windfall on better public services anyway. They like people standing on their own two feet even if they are missing a leg, here and there.

The money would go straight to corporate tax cuts. If you think your pension would be bolstered, I fear you might be in for a nasty shock.

Unfortunately that is something that will not be acknowledged until it is too late. Many parts of the UK benefited significantly from EU funding. Do people really believe that the UK government will throw money in the same direction, passing the buck to local councils is the order of the day.

Successive governments have a dismal track record in wasting taxpayers money and pushing the national debt to the limits. Why should brexit make any difference. Better management and the EU would never have become a problem in the first place.

 

Public and private sector organisations in the UK receive funding from the EU through various channels – the UK received a total of €6.3 billion (about £5.5 billion) in 2017. The majority of EU funding is administered in partnership with national and regional authorities in Member States, though a share of it is directly administered by the European Commission.

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7847

[My Thai Life]

2 hours ago, rixalex said:

Many might do but they actually don't do they, since only just over 1% of the population of Brits is living in the EU.

Protecting the rights of Brits to work, live and retire happens to be unsurprisngly seen as a matter of great importance to someone who works, lives and plans to retire in the EU, but how important is it really to the other 90% plus percent still living in Britain? Probably not that high on the list compared to some other issues.

You're right, it's not a major issue.

 

Actually it's not an issue at all. Brits will continue to be able to travel, work and retire in EU countries, even with the "hardest" of Brexits.

 

This forum is called Thai Visa - it is aimed at ex-pats living and working in Thailand. Thailand is't in the EU ;-) But it doesn't stop expats living, working and retiring here.

 

The whole Brexit "debate" boils down to the simple fact that disgruntled remainers are trying to subvert democracy, led by the arch Remainer, Teresa May.

 

These fanatics are creating huge damage to British democracy and the fabric of society.

 

 

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Actually it's not an issue at all. Brits will continue to be able to travel, work and retire in EU countries, even with the "hardest" of Brexits.

 

This forum is called Thai Visa - it is aimed at ex-pats living and working in Thailand. Thailand is't in the EU ???? But it doesn't stop expats living, working and retiring here.

I suppose you are on retirement visa. Being under 50 and working here requires going through some loops. Getting 1 year visas or extensions requires 5 cm stack of paperwork, every year. 

 

It's one of the reasons I personally wish to move back to Europe, where I don't have to do stuff like that. So yes. Possible, but hardly something I wish to do.

[My Thai Life]

28 minutes ago, oilinki said:

I suppose you are on retirement visa. Being under 50 and working here requires going through some loops. Getting 1 year visas or extensions requires 5 cm stack of paperwork, every year. 

 

It's one of the reasons I personally wish to move back to Europe, where I don't have to do stuff like that. So yes. Possible, but hardly something I wish to do.

Your suppositions about me are incorrect.

 

The fact that you wish to go back to Europe has no bearing whatsoever on British citizens and Brexit.

 

As I've posted several times before, I've worked in over 25 countries. Work permits are not difficult to obtain.

 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Your suppositions about me are incorrect.

 

The fact that you wish to go back to Europe has no bearing whatsoever on British citizens and Brexit.

 

As I've posted several times before, I've worked in over 25 countries. Work permits are not difficult to obtain.

I don't know you nor your history. Sorry about that.

 

The ease of living and working in another EU country compared to other places in the world has a lot to do with this discussion and what you said earlier. That's one purpose of the whole EU. Deny it all you want. 

 

 

[bristolboy]

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

 

 

The whole Brexit "debate" boils down to the simple fact that disgruntled remainers are trying to subvert democracy, led by the arch Remainer, Teresa May.

 

 

 

"arch Remainer, Teresa May"

Typical paranoid conspiracy theory thinking. Always go for the conspiracy explanation instead of the more likely one. The doctrine of Occam's razor has existed for over 700 years and it's still disregarded by some. 

[billd766]

13 hours ago, baboon said:

But Bill, the UK government wouldn't spend any windfall on better public services anyway. They like people standing on their own two feet even if they are missing a leg, here and there.

The money would go straight to corporate tax cuts. If you think your pension would be bolstered, I fear you might be in for a nasty shock.

 

And by the way, you have lived here for a good while. If misfortune besets you and you need to return home, don't be banking on a compassionate state to provide you with dignity and the help you need. Times have changed and it isn't the EU which is at fault... 

 

I guess that I forgot to say that it would only with a caring sharing government, the like of which at 74 I have never seen.

[dick dasterdly]

15 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

"arch Remainer, Teresa May"

Typical paranoid conspiracy theory thinking. Always go for the conspiracy explanation instead of the more likely one. The doctrine of Occam's razor has existed for over 700 years and it's still disregarded by some. 

"Always go for the conspiracy explanation instead of the more likely one."

 

There is a "more likely" explanation in your opinion?

 

May gave in to the eu's negotiating agenda (talking about trade was at the bottom of the list - money to be paid to the eu was at the top......) - and has now come up with a leave in name only 'deal' - and paying 39 bn for the privilege for the worst 'deal' possible!

 

Edit - Not to mention May constantly declared that "no deal was better than a bad deal" - and has now come up with the worst possible 'deal'!

[billd766]

14 minutes ago, oilinki said:

I don't know you nor your history. Sorry about that.

 

The ease of living and working in another EU country compared to other places in the world has a lot to do with this discussion and what you said earlier. That's one purpose of the whole EU. Deny it all you want. 

 

 

 

23 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Your suppositions about me are incorrect.

 

The fact that you wish to go back to Europe has no bearing whatsoever on British citizens and Brexit.

 

As I've posted several times before, I've worked in over 25 countries. Work permits are not difficult to obtain.

 

 

In my 50 year working life I have lived and worked in over 38 countries including 4  countries of the EU. Mexico, Chile, Venezuela, both northern and southern Africa, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Papua New Guinea, New Zealand, Thailand, Indonesia, Brunei, and as My Thai Life said work permits are no difficult to obtain if you have the right skills.

[My Thai Life]

11 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Typical paranoid conspiracy theory thinking.

Those of us that know anything about British politics know that May is a remainer.

 

She voted remain. Her Brexit is a remainer's fudge. This is not conspiracy theory. It's mainstream British news reporting.

 

May constructed her "deal" in contradiction to her election manifesto, her Lancaster House speech, her cabinet, and most importantly the referendum result. And that is why her deal is expected to be voted down by a margin of 100 to 200 MPs.

 

This is common knowledge to anyone who has any knowledge of British politics over the last couple of years.

[dick dasterdly]

2 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

I guess that I forgot to say that it would only with a caring sharing government, the like of which at 74 I have never seen.

Quite.

 

The vast majority of MPs are only interested in power, and ways to enrich themselves.....

[My Thai Life]

1 minute ago, billd766 said:

In my 50 year working life I have lived and worked in over 38 countries including 4  countries of the EU. Mexico, Chile, Venezuela, both northern and southern Africa, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Papua New Guinea, New Zealand, Thailand, Indonesia, Brunei,

wow, I am truly impressed ????

 

One of the many great things about such vast experience is that it helps to put debates into context and perspective. I have a feeling that many posters get their perspective from social media.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

In my 50 year working life I have lived and worked in over 38 countries including 4  countries of the EU. Mexico, Chile, Venezuela, both northern and southern Africa, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Papua New Guinea, New Zealand, Thailand, Indonesia, Brunei, and as My Thai Life said work permits are no difficult to obtain if you have the right skills.

Did you obtain work permit to each of those countries? If not, then I can also say that I have worked in 20+ countries, which to most I never obtained work permit as I was there to do specific tasks for a day, week or a month. 

 

The places where I had a work permit, my company's local HR departments did all the paperwork for me. Extremely easy I would say... for me.

 

In Thailand, without a support of a well functioning HR department, the story is quite different.

 

Anyway I prefer a free world where I don't have to spend time and money to gain a short term work permit (1-3 years). I simply wish to do the work. But everyone on their own ways. There are accountants etc. who probably love to do all the paperwork, I'm not one of them.

 

[dick dasterdly]

2 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

wow, I am truly impressed ????

 

One of the many great things about such vast experience is that it helps to put debates into context and perspective. I have a feeling that many posters get their perspective from social media.

"I have a feeling that many posters get their perspective from social media"

 

I disagree entirely and am pretty sure that most posters get their perspective from their experiences in life. 

 

Edit - and the (always biased) media.....

[melvinmelvin]

a major part of the complexity of the deal is due to the NI border issue,

that also leads to some consequences that people do not appreciate

 

I just can't stop wonder (will never find out though) if TM had not

pulled that snap GE where she lost the majority and had to be DUPed in order to survive

 

Would the deal have looked significantly different?

 

 

 

 

[billd766]

8 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Did you obtain work permit to each of those countries? If not, then I can also say that I have worked in 20+ countries, which to most I never obtained work permit as I was there to do specific tasks for a day, week or a month. 

 

The places where I had a work permit, my company's local HR departments did all the paperwork for me. Extremely easy I would say... for me.

 

In Thailand, without a support of a well functioning HR department, the story is quite different.

 

Anyway I prefer a free world where I don't have to spend time and money to gain a short term work permit (1-3 years). I simply wish to do the work. But everyone on their own ways. There are accountants etc. who probably love to do all the paperwork, I'm not one of them.

 

Not every country requires a work permit but satisfy your curiosity yes I did. I also paid income and withholding tax when required. Did you?

 

For Thailand the first 2 times the company I worked for sorted that out, the 3rd to 5th times I sorted it out myself.

 

It really isn't that hard to do for somebody with common sense.

 

 

[bristolboy]

11 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Those of us that know anything about British politics know that May is a remainer.

 

She voted remain. Her Brexit is a remainer's fudge. This is not conspiracy theory. It's mainstream British news reporting.

 

May constructed her "deal" in contradiction to her election manifesto, her Lancaster House speech, her cabinet, and most importantly the referendum result. And that is why her deal is expected to be voted down by a margin of 100 to 200 MPs.

 

This is common knowledge to anyone who has any knowledge of British politics over the last couple of years.

What mainstream reporting? Yes she voted to remain. But the explanation that she's secretly subverting the process is just nuts. The fact is that the EU was never going to get an agreement terms anything like Brexiters claimed they could get. May just ran up against that reality. If you have to resort to motivation ambition coupled with incompetence is a far more likely explanation. I doubt she's looking forward to any of the probable outcomes being her legacy.

 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Not every country requires a work permit but satisfy your curiosity yes I did. I also paid income and withholding tax when required. Did you?

 

For Thailand the first 2 times theompany sorted that out, the 3rd to 5th times I sorted it out myself.

 

It really isn't that hard to for somebody with common sense.

Out of curiosity, in how many countries you were resident and paid local taxes to that country?

You lived 1 year in each country?

 

I have personally been a resident (4 years+) to only 3 countries and paid local taxes to only 4 countries. That's also why I'm wonder your number of 38 countries, which is a huge number.

 

For shorter trips, there was naturally any need to become resident nor get a work permit nor pay local taxes. During my secondary work, which I did while traveling, I worked illegally.

 

[rixalex]

The fact is that the EU was never going to get an agreement terms anything like Brexiters claimed they could get. May just ran up against that reality.

And you know this how?



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[dick dasterdly]

45 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"I have a feeling that many posters get their perspective from social media"

 

I disagree entirely and am pretty sure that most posters get their perspective from their experiences in life. 

 

Edit - and the (always biased) media.....

To follow up on this point, has ANYONE changed their mind as a result of the various threads on this forum?  i.e. social media.

 

Admittedly, I've changed my mind somewhat in so far as I originally hoped that the brexit vote would lead to the eu reforming itself, and thereby providing a good reason for voters to change their minds.

 

But they preferred to continue with the same, old, tired lines - no intention of any reform...☹️

 

The uk govt. acquiescing to every eu demand hasn't helped.... and consequently, I've turned into a brexiteer.  Edit - and it has nothing to do with 'social media' - purely a result of the eu and uk govt.'s actions!

[tebee]

4 hours ago, rixalex said:

 

Re "most of immigration is non EU now".

Yes, but unlike EU immigration, all non EU immigration is tested and has to prove reasons for their visit. If they are visiting for work - the majority are not - they have to obtain a work visa, have to show things like a letter from employer, qualifications, finances. They can't simply come on a whim.

 

Most of non-EU immigration is for family reunion, rather than for the purposes of work  

[dick dasterdly]

42 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

What mainstream reporting? Yes she voted to remain. But the explanation that she's secretly subverting the process is just nuts. The fact is that the EU was never going to get an agreement terms anything like Brexiters claimed they could get. May just ran up against that reality. If you have to resort to motivation ambition coupled with incompetence is a far more likely explanation. I doubt she's looking forward to any of the probable outcomes being her legacy.

 

 

Just now, rixalex said:

 

And you know this how?



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The point is that she didn't even TRY...... Lots of talk about 'no deal is better than a bad deal' - and then she came up with the worst possible deal.....

 

Making it very clear (as a continuation to her agreeing to the eu's ridiculous 'negotiations list'!!) that she never intended to pursue a genuine brexit.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

To follow up on this point, has ANYONE changed their mind as a result of the various threads on this forum?  i.e. social media.

 

I have. Prior brexit I had very little knowledge about British politics and media. Well, I watched BBC every now and them, but the exposure how British people really talk and think was a huge surprise to me.

 

Also my British friends, with whom I have interacted, were mainly well educated professionals. I lived in an information bubble. 

 

As time passed, I have (in a way unfortunately) burst my pink bubble about UK and British people. The deep hatred towards EU and Europeans was something I didn't expect and wasn't aware of. It's done now.

 

Previously I wished UK to stay with our EU. Now, not anymore. I no longer wish UK to be part of our union. 

 

So, change of mind is possible. It's not always to the better, but possible nevertheless.