Expelled at BKK today

[Tomtomtom69]

On 3/20/2019 at 11:29 AM, cerox said:

I have read many of these threads now where people got deported back to the country they just came from and I noticed they all fell into these categories:

- back-to-back tourist visas

- back-to-back visa exempt

- too many tourist visas or visa exempt entries (some here said should not be more than 180 days per year without a proper visa)

 

Thank you for the people who answered my question regarding the ED visa.

The last two times I went out within my ED visa period on re-entry permits (coming back into BKK) - I was out for about two months each time, so in order not to get problems I spoke to the school and they also agreed it would be better to that kind of thing after one visa. 

Unfortunately my flight is already booked with Eurowings, also the flight from Europe back to BKK - they do not fly to another airport here like KUL so I cannot rebook.

I talked to the school - they said I should be fine because I never used visa exempt or tourist visas in the past (only once 3 years ago).

My current passport is already a new one, but issued here from the embassy - I know many people will get crazy about that why I did not issue the passport back home - it is simply much more hassle if you do not have residence back home. 

Cutting a long story short I will try it in Juni - most likely I will be fine. Since I cannot change the flight anymore it does seem the best solution. 

I will have 20k cash and a onward ticket within 30 days handy. I will also take my condo lease with me - in case they interview me what I am doing I can say that I pack my stuff - lease expires shortly after my return anyway.

 

I do speak Thai and with most immigration officers in BKK in the past this was a benefit for me because they kind of saw that I do not only abuse the ED visa stuff like mentioned before. On the other hand, we (Immigration and foreigners) all know that ED visas are the only way for not-married young people to stay here long-term. Not everyone wants to purchase a visa 20 years in advance - they 5-year elite option is too expensive - only the 20y option is value for money.

From my experience I would not recommend "being stupid" and pretending not to speak the language if you do, but that might depend on the IO.

 

If I get deported, which seems unlikely from all the cases I read here, I will accept it, come back later and pack my stuff. Also one of the reasons not to organize the new ED visa now, because I do not want to deposit money if I do not even know if I can come back.

Why does it matter where the passport was issued? These days most passports are issued in your home country, not at the foreign embassy you applied anymore. To this effect, it will state issued by "ministry of foreign affairs" or something of that sort, not the city where you applied for the new passport.

[gentlemanjackdarby]

14 hours ago, ShortTimed said:

 Yes I now understand what you are saying and it is very knowledgable and excellent advice but if a traveller has a R/T LAX-BKK then he can change the return date easily and may even get the change fee waived.

 

On the other hand, if he has a ticket R/T LAX-KUL and receives the news of family emergency while in Thailand then he basically gives up the return leg of this ticket and is forced to buy a last minute ticket BKK-LAX which are often higher priced last minute fares.

 

Many US carriers no longer offer bereavement fares and no discount for other related emergencies.

 

This is what I see when I apply your suggestion to my own circumstances. Yes, it is a workaround and possibly the only one available but it does have shortcomings to consider.

 

I am in the OPs shoes and really thinking the old Thailand that was a great budget travel destination friendly to expats is a thing of the past. For me looking at this place with fresh eyes, I see greater opportunity for the years ahead is nearby countries.

 

I would take the experience of the OP and use it as a motivator to visit other countries as a Plan B.

 

 

I think I'm missing something here, so please let me know if I am

 

If the OP is planning to return to LAX after his time in Thailand, why would he not just book his flights as:

 

Out:   LAX - KUL - BKK

 

Return: BKK - LAX

 

Is  a two-way ticket that much cheaper if the route is the same both ways?

[lamyai3]

3 hours ago, gentlemanjackdarby said:

Is  a two-way ticket that much cheaper if the route is the same both ways?

Typically yes - an itinerary with a different return routing would be an open jaws ticket and usually costs a lot more. Cheapest way to accomplish the above would be LAX-KUL return, with two inexpensive hops KUL-BKK and back. Another alternative is three one way flights with the final one being BKK-LAX.

 

However, the OP mentioned earlier he'd been denied entry after flying in on business class so I doubt money would be the issue. Also, this hypothetical risk of having to fly back for an emergency is unlikely to occur very often - I've only had to do this once during 22 years in Asia. 

Edited March 28, 2019 by lamyai3

[gentlemanjackdarby]

17 minutes ago, lamyai3 said:

Typically yes - an itinerary with a different return routing would be an open jaws ticket and usually costs a lot more. Cheapest way to accomplish the above would be LAX-KUL return, with two inexpensive hops KUL-BKK and back. Another alternative is three one way flights with the final one being BKK-LAX.

 

However, the OP mentioned earlier he'd been denied entry after flying in on business class so I doubt money would be the issue. Also, this hypothetical risk of having to fly back for an emergency is unlikely to occur very often - I've only had to do this once during 22 years in Asia. 

Thanks!

[reenatinnakor]

Yes get a real visa like a 60 day tourist visa.... but they might still ask you loads of questions at immigration and pull you to one side with another officer grilling you. As happened to me last time on a tourist visa - and the only tourist visa in a new passport, looks like Thailand Immigration have finally caught up with the rest of the the world computer wise! They did let me in tho after they called the gf to get confirmation that I wasn't working and my business was outside of Thailand.... not sure why it helped, but on 2 occassions they called my gf and then let me thru. So now I take a photocopy of her ID card and phone number and tell them call her if they don't believe that I don't live and work here.

 

But this time, two days ago, was expecting a grilling.... but they just let me straight thru no questions asked whatsoever, it was probably the quickest I have ever been stamped thru... and on my 2nd tourist visa in passport. I'm usually 2 months in and 2 months out.

 

So it's all pretty random if you ask me and depends on the immigration officer in the cubicle. Altho one month in and one month out on a visa exempt is obviously pushing it.

[cerox]

Interesting.

It confirms that immigration systems link your old/new passport, whether its by facial recognition with simply your name or something else.

 

So I do not need to be bothered that I recently made my new passport in Thailand/embassy because either way they have all my past data linked in the system now.  Many people always insisted on a "clean/empty passport" issued from your home country but that does not seem to make a difference anymore.

 

The only thing I wish for in the future is some clearer statements from Immigration about what they want / do not want. For example if they do not want us younger people below 50 here, simply close the ED visa loophole, e.g. with a new passport we can still study all the languages again that we did before. This loophole is accepted - a simple announcement to close it at a certain date would be fine and we could pack our things without being scared when we can and cannot enter the country.

[sanemax]

1 hour ago, cerox said:

Interesting.

It confirms that immigration systems link your old/new passport, whether its by facial recognition with simply your name or something else.

 

So I do not need to be bothered that I recently made my new passport in Thailand/embassy because either way they have all my past data linked in the system now.  Many people always insisted on a "clean/empty passport" issued from your home country but that does not seem to make a difference anymore.

 

The only thing I wish for in the future is some clearer statements from Immigration about what they want / do not want. For example if they do not want us younger people below 50 here, simply close the ED visa loophole, e.g. with a new passport we can still study all the languages again that we did before. This loophole is accepted - a simple announcement to close it at a certain date would be fine and we could pack our things without being scared when we can and cannot enter the country.

I do believe that the ED visa isnt accepted as being a way for under 50's to stay in Thailand long term  , its supposed to be for people who want to study .

    If you get a new PP in Thailand , it will be linked to the old PP  , they do this by linking both PP's when you leave , numerous forms to fill out at immigration , stating the old PP number and the new one

[cerox]

Thanks for your feedback. My current visa has already been transferred to the new passport and as you said there is a link to the old passport number.

 

Nevertheless my current and also other schools state that the game can restart with a new passport, no matter of the passport link. That is why I call it an "accepted loophole". But, this might differ from province to province. For example in Bangkok they do not even let you study English as a European foreigner but in Chiang Mai you seem to be able to do it forever with new passports every few years. Also only CM has that "combat training" ED visa which has no time limit - I think corruption is highest in Chiang Mai for ED Visas.

[Tomtomtom69]

12 hours ago, gentlemanjackdarby said:

I think I'm missing something here, so please let me know if I am

 

If the OP is planning to return to LAX after his time in Thailand, why would he not just book his flights as:

 

Out:   LAX - KUL - BKK

 

Return: BKK - LAX

 

Is  a two-way ticket that much cheaper if the route is the same both ways? 

Because there are no flights from BKK or KUL to the USA. The transit point should be SIN, which offers numerous flights on multiple carriers direct to LAX. Or HKG, TPE or any number of Japanese airports (Tokyo-Narita, Haneda, Osaka etc.)

[Traubert]

I have six Visa exempt stamps in my current passport since May 2017.

 

1 x Chiang Mai

1 x Phuket

4 x Utapao

 

All flight arrivals. This would seem to bust the 2 x 1 Calendar year theory. All were short holidays so no question of breaking an unwritten 180/365 day rule and all departure points where in China.

 

Make of that what you will.

[spidermike007]

Immigration under the biggest joke is one of the reasons why tourism here is diminishing, and many ex-pats are leaving. The country is being mismanaged on such a massive level, that it boggles the mind. They are encouraging Chinese tourism, while they are openly and actively discouraging Western tourism, and Western ex-pats from continuing to live here. It is an astonishing lack of vision, and the very embodiment of fear. Small men, afraid of the unknown. Thailand is not able to compel wealthy Chinese to visit, as the services are just not up to par with what they can get elsewhere. So, they end up with mostly low baht Chinese tourists. Everybody suffers as a result. The lack of vision if nothing short of mind boggling. The arrogance of this administration is insufferable. They must go. The army needs to be booted out of politics, and everyday Thai life. They bring absolutely nothing to the table. The term empty suits is very apt, when describing Prayuth, the biggest joke, and the army. 

[buick]

7 hours ago, Traubert said:

I have six Visa exempt stamps in my current passport since May 2017.

 

1 x Chiang Mai

1 x Phuket

4 x Utapao

 

All flight arrivals. This would seem to bust the 2 x 1 Calendar year theory. All were short holidays so no question of breaking an unwritten 180/365 day rule and all departure points where in China.

 

Make of that what you will.

some have said there is an 'alert' for the IO when someone reaches their 6th VE entry.  given you've done the 6 in less than two years, that 'alert' may have come up.  but when the IO reviewed your length of stay, he/she didn't take issue with it.

 

[JackThompson]

3 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

Immigration under the biggest joke is one of the reasons why tourism here is diminishing, and many ex-pats are leaving. The country is being mismanaged on such a massive level, that it boggles the mind. They are encouraging Chinese tourism, while they are openly and actively discouraging Western tourism, and Western ex-pats from continuing to live here. It is an astonishing lack of vision, and the very embodiment of fear. Small men, afraid of the unknown. Thailand is not able to compel wealthy Chinese to visit, as the services are just not up to par with what they can get elsewhere. So, they end up with mostly low baht Chinese tourists. Everybody suffers as a result. The lack of vision if nothing short of mind boggling. The arrogance of this administration is insufferable. They must go. The army needs to be booted out of politics, and everyday Thai life. They bring absolutely nothing to the table. The term empty suits is very apt, when describing Prayuth, the biggest joke, and the army. 

Agree on the bad immigration policy changes, but I don't see the army/regime and immigration issues as directly related.  Immigration has been getting progressively worse for years, going back several changes in govts.  It was Prayuth who told immigration to back off, when they first started twisting the rules to stop repeat visa-exempts.  I don't recall any of the parties in the recent election saying they were going to "help good expats" by removing the anti-farang clique at immigration.

Some wealthy Chinese do visit, but that is not a valid reason to deny Westerners, as there are still many, many more Thais who would like good jobs which are created by expat spending.  Granted, the "tour group" types do little good at all - stressing infrastructure, lowering the quality of areas they flood, and providing the lowest paid jobs and lowest hires-per-visitor ratio.

 

As to BJ - his "new rules" for retirees have done nothing to affect the agent-corruption that drives IOs to give a hard-time to honest-applicants, and the airport lawlessness is only getting worse - so, he hasn't provided any quality-oversight.

 

Our problem is directly due to a faction within immigration - not all, as some offices and entry points do not demonstrate an anti-farang vitriol.  Unless/until members of that faction are told to back off and/or fired, our problem will remain.

[JackThompson]

11 hours ago, Tomtomtom69 said:

Because there are no flights from BKK or KUL to the USA. The transit point should be SIN, which offers numerous flights on multiple carriers direct to LAX. Or HKG, TPE or any number of Japanese airports (Tokyo-Narita, Haneda, Osaka etc.)

Do we have reports of what happens to those "booted back" to Singapore (or HKG, TPE, Japan)?  Granted, most of us could get visa-exempt or VOA there - but not sure if they like those "being returned" or not.

[lkv]

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

Unless/until members of that faction are told to back off and/or fired, our problem will remain.

But...but....but....

 

They paid money for those jobs. See how all is interconnected?

 

To become Police in Thailand, one has to pay Thai baht. And Immigration is also part of RTP.

[stevenl]

10 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

Immigration under the biggest joke is one of the reasons why tourism here is diminishing, and many ex-pats are leaving. The country is being mismanaged on such a massive level, that it boggles the mind. They are encouraging Chinese tourism, while they are openly and actively discouraging Western tourism, and Western ex-pats from continuing to live here. It is an astonishing lack of vision, and the very embodiment of fear. Small men, afraid of the unknown. Thailand is not able to compel wealthy Chinese to visit, as the services are just not up to par with what they can get elsewhere. So, they end up with mostly low baht Chinese tourists. Everybody suffers as a result. The lack of vision if nothing short of mind boggling. The arrogance of this administration is insufferable. They must go. The army needs to be booted out of politics, and everyday Thai life. They bring absolutely nothing to the table. The term empty suits is very apt, when describing Prayuth, the biggest joke, and the army. 

"They are encouraging Chinese tourism, while they are openly and actively discouraging Western tourism, and Western ex-pats from continuing to live here."

First part is true, basically they want tourists from all parts of the world, second part is nonsense.

They are discouraging people living in Thailand on tourist visa, not discouraging western tourism.

[JackThompson]

3 hours ago, stevenl said:

They are discouraging people living in Thailand on tourist visa, not discouraging western tourism.

Only if you define "living in Thailand" as staying a few months in the winter.  Or, whatever some IO/supervisor thinks is "too much time before."  There is no way to know where the line is at bad entry points, because there is no law/order applicable to what they are doing.  Thailand's immigration has become famous for unpredictable treatment, which keeps many Western tourists (and their money) away.

You cannot "live in Thailand" as a tourist anyway, unless overstaying.  The max permitted stay 60-days plus 30 more only with immigration's permission, then you have to leave the country.  There is no pertinent law/regulation saying how long you have to be gone before starting a new visit, because it is Good for Thailand if self-funded people come back soon. 

 

If the powers that be really want to discourage this (and hurt Thais by doing so), a change to the law or pertinent order would need to be authorized at the top and published.  At that point, everyone could know what the rules are. 

 

They could even preserve their corruption opportunities - a "no problem up to X" with "more scrutiny beyond X" rule, would allow visitors to enter the country at any entry-point without fear up to the X limit, while preserving their ability to "let the rules slide" for those paying 12K Baht in Poipet/Aranya, or whatever - See:

Quote

... a staff accompanied me to the Cambodian immigration to cancel my "departed" stamp. But before that,  this staff brought me to this guy who told me that his Cambodian boss could make me enter Thailand because he is friends with the head of the Thai immigration at the border but I will need to pay 12,000 BAHT ...

 

But, granted, any reasonable "OK to Visit" period would discourage their ability to force-market elite visas and agent-services, so this is unlikely to happen.

[StevieAus]

On 3/30/2019 at 7:09 AM, stevenl said:

"They are encouraging Chinese tourism, while they are openly and actively discouraging Western tourism, and Western ex-pats from continuing to live here."

First part is true, basically they want tourists from all parts of the world, second part is nonsense.

They are discouraging people living in Thailand on tourist visa, not discouraging western tourism.

Totally agree, before I moved here years ago I visited Thailand as a genuine tourist many times without a problem

We regularly have visitors from different countries none of whom experience any problems.

I have never had any problems since living here and certainly don’t feel discouraged

Out of all of my expat friends and others I have met there is only one who has experienced problems and that is because he fails to obtain the correct information.

[tropo]

On 3/19/2019 at 7:45 AM, jackdd said:

OP said "I usually stay up to 1 month, go back to the US for a week or more." so most likely he had a flight back within 30 days, and might as well have had the 10k baht. But probably they didn't even ask him for any of it, they just wanted to deny his entry.

 

Sounds like OP made only short term visits of not more than 30 days and then back home, so actually this should be one of the situations for which visa exempts were made.

Anyone who has the means to fly back to the US every month or so is the type they need in Thailand. He obviously has plenty of cash and he spends plenty of money. This is obscene treatment by ignorant officials.

[1RDN]

On 5/25/2019 at 4:14 AM, tropo said:

Anyone who has the means to fly back to the US every month or so is the type they need in Thailand. He obviously has plenty of cash and he spends plenty of money. This is obscene treatment by ignorant officials.

Follow up, 

The 6 month multiple entries visa has been nice. The first time back, there was a hesitation. Since, then I have traveled to Europe a couple of times. I always pack my bags as if I will be returned to the US. However, (with fingers crossed) 3 times entering the country has not been a problem. 

I do spend $$, I don't work in Thailand. I do travel, by motorcycle, as much as I can. I have learned, don't give any red flags, then it's easy coming into the country.

The tourist visa gives 90 days, so no more 30 day stress. 

I am going on my 3rd year of being primarily here. I find that I have less stress here than I do in the US. Probably because I can ride everyday. No politics and a wonderful fiance. 

[GinBoy2]

Well you are always, with the odd exception, a tourist, albeit a long stay one.

 

An extension of stay, be it based on retirement or marriage, is nothing more than that, never kid yourself.

 

Whether or not the Thai elite have decided to focus on Chinese tourism, who knows the minds of these people.

 

The unfortunate reality on the ground seems to be that they prefer the Westerners to be snowbirds, spend a couple of months, drop a couple of thousand bucks...then leave!

 

No 90 day reports, no TM-30, no paperwork.

 

I am fully prepared to fall into line with that

[AYJAYDEE]

16 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

Well you are always, with the odd exception, a tourist, albeit a long stay one.

 

An extension of stay, be it based on retirement or marriage, is nothing more than that, never kid yourself.

 

Whether or not the Thai elite have decided to focus on Chinese tourism, who knows the minds of these people.

 

The unfortunate reality on the ground seems to be that they prefer the Westerners to be snowbirds, spend a couple of months, drop a couple of thousand bucks...then leave!

 

No 90 day reports, no TM-30, no paperwork.

 

I am fully prepared to fall into line with that

No TM 30? why's that?

 

[BritTim]

47 minutes ago, AYJAYDEE said:

No TM 30? why's that?

While technically a TM30 is required for all visitors, most people will not have a problem unless they need a service from a local immigration office. At the current time, airport immigration does not concern itself with TM30 notifications.

[JackThompson]

3 hours ago, GinBoy2 said:

The unfortunate reality on the ground seems to be that they prefer the Westerners to be snowbirds, spend a couple of months, drop a couple of thousand bucks...then leave!

We have a couple reports of airport-immigration whining about people putting "60-days" as their intended-stay period - saying "one or two weeks is enough."  Actual snowbirds - doing 5 or so months here, to avoid cold weather, report being hassled on their 2nd entry for the year (1 TR in passport-country followed by a Visa-Exempt entry).

 

It is my impression immigration (the hater-clique within it) would prefer we all got the "15 day VOA" option, only.

Edited May 29, 2019 by JackThompson

[DingDongLing]

7 hours ago, 1RDN said:

Follow up, 

The 6 month multiple entries visa has been nice. The first time back, there was a hesitation. Since, then I have traveled to Europe a couple of times. I always pack my bags as if I will be returned to the US. However, (with fingers crossed) 3 times entering the country has not been a problem. 

I do spend $$, I don't work in Thailand. I do travel, by motorcycle, as much as I can. I have learned, don't give any red flags, then it's easy coming into the country.

The tourist visa gives 90 days, so no more 30 day stress. 

I am going on my 3rd year of being primarily here. I find that I have less stress here than I do in the US. Probably because I can ride everyday. No politics and a wonderful fiance. 

When they denied you, did they make you buy a plane ticket back or gave u one? lol

 

Can anyone summarize 18 pages of what happened?  thanks

[AYJAYDEE]

4 hours ago, BritTim said:

While technically a TM30 is required for all visitors, most people will not have a problem unless they need a service from a local immigration office. At the current time, airport immigration does not concern itself with TM30 notifications.

current time doesnt last long these days

[OJAS]

10 hours ago, 1RDN said:

a wonderful fiance

So, assuming that she's Thai, why not marry her ASAP, which will then enable you to go down the non-O visa/marriage extension route in future?

[JohnnyBKK]

I think the limit of exemption visas per 180 days is 3. After 3 the entry is refused.

Personally I have the elite visa and I don't feel safe neither, I also live in constant fear of visa problems.

[ubonjoe]

15 minutes ago, JohnnyBKK said:

I think the limit of exemption visas per 180 days is 3. After 3 the entry is refused.

There is no written limit on visa exempt entries by air over any amount of time.

[JohnnyBKK]

6 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

There is no written limit on visa exempt entries by air over any amount of time.

Weird, that is not what I have been told by those on exempt entries. I guess every officer has its own rules.