Vitara .....THIRD water leak....all different

[cheeryble]

Vitara 1999 16v 1600 345,000km

 

Hi I thought I'd start a new thread but faithful posters here may remember I was losing water, garage found a corroded alloy elbow and that was fixed.

Was still losing a bit so later went back in for a pressure test and they found a rubber hose leak. Job done. 

Some time later now i find i'm having to top up top tank and it may repeat may have got worse.

Now about a half bottle of distilled water every couple of days.

Took it back in for a pressure test this time they can't find anything and they are a good place and I trust them to look carefully.

It was suggested may be a head gasket. I said I'd go back in for a chat about that.

 

In the meantime I've done a quick check:

 

There's  a little rusty residue around the rad cap but very little think it's been there a long time quite hard.

I drive quite fast and far daily and temperature is steady and looks good and the engine;s been properly flushed some time ago so presume it's clear of old gunk.

You can see for yourself that though the rad water rises with temperature and rattles round it is not spurting up as with a head gasket gases leak, probably just engine movement causing ripples.

Oil filler cap clean  and maybe a very slight suck if I'm not mistaken this CAN be acceptable. In any case there is a slight suck or blow as covering the ingress with th palm slightly changes the engine speed.

Take a look and BTW it's a wee bit noisy exhaust pipe joint needs doing.....unrelated and no prob.

Video 2 just shows no steam in the exhaust or dripping.

 

Basically a head gasket job can be 15-25,000bt so I think a consultation with you guys is called for.

 

Take a look at this and later i'll show you a couple of amazing videos on this subject........the best I've seen on you tube.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 15, 2019 by cheeryble

[transam]

If a crack in the head it may not show up...It may just use a little water at a certain temp.....I have the T-shirt.....There is a test for this if the head is removed...Even the block could have a crack which is more difficult to find..

[cheeryble]

9 minutes ago, transam said:

If a crack in the head it may not show up...It may just use a little water at a certain temp.....I have the T-shirt.....There is a test for this if the head is removed...Even the block could have a crack which is more difficult to find..

Please tell me it can be fixed with sawdust it worked to stop a big leak on the propeller gland of a wooden yacht I helped on. Permanently. I'm told.

Actually to be more realistic Barr;s Leak has been known to work back in the Morris Minor days we wee never without it......now I believe it's much better with carbon fibres and little silver flakes.

And out of interest where does the water go?

Maybe the head or gasket leak slow enough it doesn't condense or show at the exhaust pipe? I do average a minimum of 50-100km per day, the slowish leak averaged out over that time may not be visible and as you say may only kick in when the engine's at full temp 

Edited April 15, 2019 by cheeryble

[transam]

3 minutes ago, cheeryble said:

Please tell me it can be fixed with sawdust.

And out of interest where does the water go?

Maybe the head or gasket leak slow enough it doesn't condense or show at the exhaust pipe? I do average a minimum of 50-100km per day, the slowish leak averaged out over that time may not be visible and as you say may only kick in when the engine's at full temp 

At one time my fun ride had water injection.....It is burned, provides extra Oxygen an the rest is chucked out....If a small leak you will not know where it is unless an investigation...

 

Saying that, just replace rad cap, clean the cap surface for complete rubber seal contact, replace thermostat...Go from there..

[scorecard]

40 minutes ago, cheeryble said:

Please tell me it can be fixed with sawdust it worked to stop a big leak on the propeller gland of a wooden yacht I helped on. Permanently. I'm told.

Actually to be more realistic Barr;s Leak has been known to work back in the Morris Minor days we wee never without it......now I believe it's much better with carbon fibres and little silver flakes.

And out of interest where does the water go?

Maybe the head or gasket leak slow enough it doesn't condense or show at the exhaust pipe? I do average a minimum of 50-100km per day, the slowish leak averaged out over that time may not be visible and as you say may only kick in when the engine's at full temp 

Had something the same some months back, eventually ProAuto in CM removed the head and had it measured and it was slightly not flat, head shaved, all reinstalled with new gasket and problem solved.

 

It seems that when the engine was quite hot water was leaking out in the form of steam so no visual leaking marks to be seen, no water on the floor etc. 

 

 

[cheeryble]

Next time it happens check this out

My favourite mechanic!

He also shows how to examine for head gasket leaks.......fantastic

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[Kwasaki]

2 hours ago, cheeryble said:

It was suggested may be a head gasket.

Yeah I would bet needs a head skim at 345,000 km over 200,000 miles I would say is good innings for a 1600.

 

You say the engine temperature is steady and looks good. 

For the time being as trans said change rad thermostat if it has one and check the rad cap rubber seal then go from there.

 

I would prefer a machined head skim personally.

 

Edited April 15, 2019 by Kwasaki

[cheeryble]

 

I would prefer a machined head skim personally.

 

 

But you gotta admire his get it done attitude :)

 

Yeah maybe the miles are piling up.

Wonder how much for the whole lump and drive train from Japan if it comes to a head strip

 

Ouch.....it’s a 4wd.

Second ouch.....would like to go automatic

 

 

 

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[Kwasaki]

1 hour ago, cheeryble said:

But you gotta admire his get it done attitude ????

 

Yeah maybe the miles are piling up.

Wonder how much for the whole lump and drive train from Japan if it comes to a head strip

 

Ouch.....it’s a 4wd.

Second ouch.....would like to go automatic

Yeah but he goes a bit too much for my liking.

In Thailand a head strip and check and maybe a part engine re-build would be cheaper than a new lump in my opinion.

 

Whether an auto box could be fitted to a Suk manual 4x4 I would say no but depends on how deep your pockets.

 

You sound like you like to hang onto cars too like me, new ones do nothing for me the company I worked for took care of that even when I didn't want to change.

 

Privately I had a Volvo 244 DL in UK for 24 years serviced it myself because Volvo prices were a joke, the major thing I had to do was a rear engine oil seal, the auto box was dam heavy.

 

[cheeryble]

In Thailand a head strip and check and maybe a part engine re-build would be cheaper than a new lump in my opinion.

 

Whether an auto box could be fitted to a Suk manual 4x4 I would say no but depends on how deep your pockets.

 

You sound like you like to hang onto cars too like me, new ones do nothing for me the company I worked for took care of that even when I didn't want to change.

 

Privately I had a Volvo 244 DL in UK for 24 years serviced it myself because Volvo prices were a joke, the major thing I had to do was a rear engine oil seal, the auto box was dam heavy.

 

 

My French pal has one of those Volvos among four old cars here he just had a Toyota engine put in he loves it.

 

 

 

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[DaRoadrunner]

If there are no visible external leaks, check head gasket. To do this you remove spark plugs and insert a compression tester (most garages have one).

 

Head gasket replacement is not as expensive as you quote.

 

If you remove the head to change the gasket, check the head is not warped or cracked. If warped it will need to be machined, if cracked ... it's a new head... not cheap.

 

Examination of the head face and the old gasket will often show where the leak is.

 

Head gasket leaks often show as grey water vapour in the exhaust plus oil and water mixing together. Oil dipstick may show cream like colour of oil and water mixed. There may be a cream coloured film on the inside of the oil filler cap. There may be a rainbow like oil film on top of the water in the water reservoir tank.

 

Your car also shows signs of rust in the system and no coolant, just water. Clean system and add coolant to the water after you fix the head gasket.

 

When finished, it is always a good idea to change the oil and filter too as water will have contaminated the oil.

Edited April 15, 2019 by DaRoadrunner

[PJPom]

If you are worried about cost of head gasket etc. the first thing to do is get a can of radweld or Barrsleak . I have used powder or liquid as the first step and often found that a ten dollar temporary fix has lasted for years.

Should you need a head overhaul I cannot see it being as expensive as you quoted, labour in Australia is about $110 per hr and for a four cylinder costs including gaskets etc are usually about $6 - 700. 

Try it and good luck

[MeePeeMai]

Check your freeze plugs real good too.  When running rusty old water in the cooling system for so long the freeze plugs are prone to develop small leaks (which might only be detectable at normal or high operating temps).  It may be difficult to see the water leaking through any pinhole(s) as it turns to steam and evaporates very quickly.

[cheeryble]

On April 15, 2019 at 11:40 PM, PJPom said:

If you are worried about cost of head gasket etc. the first thing to do is get a can of radweld or Barrsleak . I have used powder or liquid as the first step and often found that a ten dollar temporary fix has lasted for years.

Should you need a head overhaul I cannot see it being as expensive as you quoted, labour in Australia is about $110 per hr and for a four cylinder costs including gaskets etc are usually about $6 - 700. 

Try it and good luck

I've still been running the car with a small water top up every days.......it running fine.......so I've considered BArrsLeak but a bit concerned about aircon heat exchanger getting stuffed up.

Thoughts?

 

Yes your OZ price would suggest no more than about 6 hours work for a head shave etc thats not much in Thailand but I trust ProAuto.

 

In fact there's been a development couple days ago I drove 20km like normal, when i turned off I heard a glugging noise.

the water seemed to be high in the top up bottle and steam coming out of the top bottle overflow. Its possible I overfilled it but don't think so.

The engine area felt hot its been hot weather but it was all i could do to open the bonnet with bare hands had to use cloth.

I used the car twice are that day inc another 20km no gurgling this time.

I might add the temp gauge stayed in it's normal position all day long.

 

I know i know it needs a proper analysis but any thoughts would still be appreciated.

 

 

 

 

[cheeryble]

On April 15, 2019 at 11:43 PM, MeePeeMai said:

Check your freeze plugs real good too.  When running rusty old water in the cooling system for so long the freeze plugs are prone to develop small leaks (which might only be detectable at normal or high operating temps).  It may be difficult to see the water leaking through any pinhole(s) as it turns to steam and evaporates very quickly.

Sorry I overlooked I will mention to Ton when i go see him.

[johng]

9 minutes ago, cheeryble said:

so I've considered BArrsLeak but a bit concerned about aircon heat exchanger getting stuffed up.

The aircon and engine  cooling are two separate systems.

[transam]

If you have that gurgling thingy then you have a pressure  build up from within....My thoughts are a water jacket crack or head gasket cylinder to water jacket pressure leak.. 

[transam]

2 minutes ago, johng said:

The aircon and engine  cooling are two separate systems.

Unless it has a combined heater....????

[thaiguzzi]

Have you thought of setting it on fire and just collecting the insurance money?

[cheeryble]

The aircon and engine  cooling are two separate systems.

Ummm

I was concerned cos I’ve heard of heater heat exchangers having probs with Barrs



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[cheeryble]

Have you thought of setting it on fire and just collecting the insurance money?

It’s like part of the family.


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[cheeryble]

Unless it has a combined heater....[emoji39]

I’ll find out


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[johng]

9 minutes ago, cheeryble said:

 

I’ll find out


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He's pulling your leg...if you have a heater  it may well /most likely does circulate engine coolant

through a "heater core"  hidden under the dash board.

the aircon uses  a  similar system as  a refrigerator/freezer  a refrigerant  gas is compressed and expanded to provide cooling...open the bonnet ( hood)  and see the 2 radiators... one is for engine coolant the other is for aircon....even if the heater and aircon share a common "core" hidden under the dashboard...the 2 systems are separate they cannot  have coolant and refrigerant flowing through the same pipe.

[transam]

6 minutes ago, johng said:

He's pulling your leg...if you have a heater  it may well /most likely does circulate engine coolant

through a "heater core"  hidden under the dash board.

the aircon uses  a  similar system as  a refrigerator/freezer  a refrigerant  gas is compressed and expanded to provide cooling...open the bonnet ( hood)  and see the 2 radiators... one is for engine coolant the other is for aircon....even if the heater and aircon share a common "core" hidden under the dashboard...the 2 systems are separate they cannot  have coolant and refrigerant flowing through the same pipe.

If there is a heater rad it will use engine coolant. If Barrs is used it can and does block the the fine veins..BUT, I doubt it has a heater in LOS...????

[johng]

1 minute ago, transam said:

I doubt it has a heater in LOS...

Well if it does have a heater that could be the place that is leaking coolant

@cheeryble does the passenger side carpet get damp ?

[VocalNeal]

On 4/15/2019 at 11:40 PM, PJPom said:

If you are worried about cost of head gasket etc. the first thing to do is get a can of radweld or Barrsleak . I have used powder or liquid as the first step and often found that a ten dollar temporary fix has lasted for years.

Should you need a head overhaul I cannot see it being as expensive as you quoted, labour in Australia is about $110 per hr and for a four cylinder costs including gaskets etc are usually about $6 - 700. 

Try it and good luck

 

I concur. A small plastic tube of brown powder. Available at all automotive parts stores and

maybe even a big Tesco or Big C. About 80 Baht

 

If in BKK there is a place on Lasalle-Bearing called Vitara world.

 

 

[PJPom]

My first thoughts reading this is that you have a head gasket leak, as I  recommended before firstly try Barsleaks, it’s cheap and no it won’t cause damage to heater core. NOTE  Aircon can also deliver hot air for demisting, so obviously it has a heating radiator, usually impossible to get at , ignore it for this problem as described.

Try the quick fix, your bubbling and overflowing are caused by pressure buildup, check your oil, is it contaminated by sludge, discoloured, water in oil turns it grey, check spark plugs. These are the basic checks I would do before pressure testing cooling system , complete coolant flush, checking ALL hoses, you would be surprised at the placement in some cars, and then if nothing obvious is found quote you for an expensive head overhaul.

Good luck

[ignis]

On 4/15/2019 at 4:02 PM, cheeryble said:

 

But you gotta admire his get it done attitude ????

 

Yeah maybe the miles are piling up.

Wonder how much for the whole lump and drive train from Japan if it comes to a head strip

 

Ouch.....it’s a 4wd.

Second ouch.....would like to go automatic

 

 

 

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Have a look here 1st, as well as the 1600 they also have the V6 2 lt Engine, and the V6 2.7 lt Engine, just maybe need new Engine mounts.....  Friend converted one to Auto + a 2lt Engine on his manual 3 dr 1600 1993 model..  another a few year ago now, fitted a diesel engine, feel sure it was a Nissan engine.

[cheeryble]

9 hours ago, transam said:

If there is a heater rad it will use engine coolant. If Barrs is used it can and does block the the fine veins..BUT, I doubt it has a heater in LOS...????

no heater 

[cheeryble]

9 hours ago, johng said:

Well if it does have a heater that could be the place that is leaking coolant

@cheeryble does the passenger side carpet get damp ?

No heater no damp