Blatant abuse of entry denials at Phuket Airport

[oldwelshman]

4 minutes ago, JamJar said:

The common denominator appears to me to be the fact that these people obtained their Tourist Visas from a neighbouring country and not their home country.

dtag alludes to that himself, when he mentioned the Australia citizen who obtained his visa in KL. of course dtag obtained his in Cambodia.

Obviously, people seemingly not returning to their home country rings alarm bells for them.

So why have them issue visas in the first place? IO in Thaiand is farcical, they make it up as they go along.

[lkv]

20 minutes ago, JamJar said:

Obviously, people seemingly not returning to their home country rings alarm bells for them.

They are working on this "issue".

 

As of not long ago, unless you are a legal resident of the UK, or actually a British citizen, you can no longer apply for any visa there.

 

Not only valid for London, valid for Hull also etc. And Hull does not have e-visa.

 

Very soon, it's likely that Embassies in the region will go that way also, forcing people to go to the home country for a Thai visa (of any type).

Edited July 5, 2019 by lkv

[aqua4]

6 hours ago, dtag said:

I'm not sure why people think I would concoct this story and be so eager to dismiss it. But I think they will be eating their own words in the next few months as this becomes a more common story

 

I have the feeling you are correct on this one. I also note the current and growing anti-Western sentiment in Thailand. Packing next year is looking inevitable for me before this starts becoming a problem for one and all as I cant see how living with randomness is any good. 

[JackThompson]

6 hours ago, dtag said:

I'm not sure why people think I would concoct this story and be so eager to dismiss it. But I think they will be eating their own words in the next few months as this becomes a more common story

It is already a common story.  I think the "na-na-na, you deserved it," replies are part PR (paid for), part complete denial that they will be future victims, and part a form of Stockholm Syndrome - literally making excuses for a Cartel breaking the laws they are sworn to uphold.

 

5 hours ago, cerox said:

Now Phuket seems to be a no-go too. Every few months they seem to close another door, so many people will ask themselves how long they want to play this game. 

Problems at Phuket and Samui are not new. They are airports to avoid ALWAYS if one has any past-history in Thailand beyond a few short stays, well spaced-apart - same as the Bangkok airports.

[Leaver]

39 minutes ago, oldwelshman said:

So why have them issue visas in the first place? IO in Thaiand is farcical, they make it up as they go along.

You make a good point, and one that I think with be addressed in the near future by the Thai government.

 

What is the point of refusing airport arrivals, but not refusing land boarder arrivals?

 

Surely, it's only a matter of time before the land boarders start to follow the same policy at the airports. 

[Briggsy]

1 hour ago, JamJar said:

The common denominator appears to me to be the fact that these people obtained their Tourist Visas from a neighbouring country and not their home country.

I got my METV from the UK. Still denied. The common denominator is staying over 180 days in a rolling year. For some reason, they have decided this is their denial of entry guideline.

[DaRoadrunner]

On 7/4/2019 at 9:28 PM, dtag said:

I agree with you Khao Yai in trying fight for things , if I had a longer term plan of living here. Really this just screwed up for me how I wanted to start a much longer trip to other parts of Asia, Aus, and NZ. I was looking forward to this journey starting with visiting parts of the country I have never had time to get to. Because I actually really like Thailand and most Thai people. Losing that is worse than spending 3 days bored and annoyed. But it's ruined now.

And, based on plenty of time to converse, I know this place is now ruined for everyone else I have shared this room with. Those living here will be moving away for good , and the tourists will definitely never return, nor will their friends and family ever come here on a trip.

This hasn't been- oh just get on the next plane out. It's been being locked in a room where you rely on random visits by airline  security employee offering  to take money buy you food and water a few times a day. And having two beds for three complete strangers , etc.  

 

Living quarters , along with a small love seats,  to the side, for 2-3 grown siting together all day and sleeping at night. Go ahead and say "i must be your fault" , But you come do this for 3 days when you had a valid visa issued by an embasy

Perhaps the Tourist Authority of Thailand would like to use this as a promotional photo?

 

It appears the OP had a valid visa and this is how he was treated. It's about time our embassies issued a travel warning for Thailand (don't hold your breath waiting!).

 

[JackThompson]

44 minutes ago, Leaver said:

You make a good point, and one that I think with be addressed in the near future by the Thai government.

 

What is the point of refusing airport arrivals, but not refusing land boarder arrivals?

 

Surely, it's only a matter of time before the land boarders start to follow the same policy at the airports. 

If this were "official policy" nationwide, an official police/administrative order would be given with specified guidelines. 

 

As that has not happened, it would appear that the funds have not been expended the to buy off all entry points - yet, at least.  It costs money to pay officials to break laws - and there are no detention-centers, air-ticket commissions, or other "built in" ways to make that work at land-borders - so you need a xenophoic-zealot, and/or hard cash, to make it happen.  But if it is decided that too much "extra" revenue is slipping through the fingers of those who benefit, they will begin corrupting the other entry-points.

[Leaver]

22 minutes ago, Briggsy said:

I got my METV from the UK. Still denied. The common denominator is staying over 180 days in a rolling year. For some reason, they have decided this is their denial of entry guideline.

This is the hypocrisy of the whole situation.

 

"Farang all have big money" yet, not seemly enough to be in Thailand for 3, 4, 6 or more months, without having to work illegally. 

 

They just don't get it. 

[Leaver]

9 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

If this were "official policy" nationwide, an official police/administrative order would be given with specified guidelines. 

 

As that has not happened, it would appear that the funds have not been expended the to buy off all entry points - yet, at least.  It costs money to pay officials to break laws - and there are no detention-centers, air-ticket commissions, or other "built in" ways to make that work at land-borders - so you need a xenophoic-zealot, and/or hard cash, to make it happen.  But if it is decided that too much "extra" revenue is slipping through the fingers of those who benefit, they will begin corrupting the other entry-points.

I accept your point, however, biometrics, controlled out of a central Bangkok data base, will soon bring it all into line, and that will leave land boarder crossings with ZERO wiggle room. 

 

Not if, just when. 

Edited July 5, 2019 by Leaver

[lkv]

20 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

If this were "official policy" nationwide, an official police/administrative order would be given with specified guidelines. 

Most countries as far as I know, apart from Schengen, there is no guideline.

 

Go to Singapore, Malaysia, Hong Kong, Indonesia and so on, and the grilling will start after the xTH entry, without warning. Or they give you limited short stays out of mercy.

 

It's a guess game based on reports. Always has, always will. All countries.

 

Edited July 5, 2019 by lkv

[JackThompson]

1 minute ago, lkv said:

Most countries as far as I know, apart from Schengen, there is no guideline.

 

Go to Singapore, Malaysia, Hong Kong, Indonesia and so on, and the grilling will start after the xTH entry, without warning.

 

It's a guess game based on reports. Always has, always will. All countries.

The immigration-laws permit "officer discretion" denials there - not in Thailand. 

 

Also, those nations have a huge problem with people coming to work illegally. 

 

Thailand has this problem also, but not visitors from countries with a min-wage many times higher than Thailand.  Immigration offers tons of L-Visas for those coming from poor nations to undercut Thai-wages in an increasing number of jobs, so clearly they don't want to stop this effect, and help their own citizens maintain a decent standard of living.

[Leaver]

22 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

The immigration-laws permit "officer discretion" denials there - not in Thailand. 

 

Also, those nations have a huge problem with people coming to work illegally. 

 

Thailand has this problem also, but not visitors from countries with a min-wage many times higher than Thailand.  Immigration offers tons of L-Visas for those coming from poor nations to undercut Thai-wages in an increasing number of jobs, so clearly they don't want to stop this effect, and help their own citizens maintain a decent standard of living.

So, easy visa for those Thailand can exploit for cheap labor, but difficult visa for those that Thailand can't.

[lkv]

41 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

The immigration-laws permit "officer discretion" denials there - not in Thailand. 

 

Yeah ok. Effect of a third world education. They don't think using the same logic as Australia, UK etc.

 

Is that the only thing you have seen out of order in Thailand when it comes to inconsistency?

 

Like they care they break the law. Actually, they are being ordered to break the law by people from the top, who are lazy to change laws. So it's got their blessing. I don't believe in the "rogue" IO theory. It's a coordinated effort. When they go molesting people in the street asking them to pee in cups, what's that? Not law breaking also?

 

You stated in the past airport IO's are "breaking the law". Yes they are.

 

Very soon land borders will also "break the law". Poipet has been doing just that for years.

 

Wanna bet nobody will care, apart from obviously the affected traveller?

 

Edited July 5, 2019 by lkv

[acenase]

Does anyone know why the Tourist visa is still kept valid after being denied entry?

 

Wouldn't it make sense that even if OP has a valid, new, unused Tourist visa and still got denied entry by the IO, that he could also stamp "VOID" on the unused Visa? 

 

Why is it that they don't do this and just deny entry and allow them to still enter Thailand with the Visa, just at another port of entry?

[Traubert]

1 hour ago, lkv said:

Like they care they break the law. Actually, they are being ordered to break the law by people from the top, who are lazy to change laws. So it's got their blessing. I don't believe in the "rogue" IO theory. It's a coordinated effort. When they go molesting people in the street asking them to pee in cups, what's that? Not law breaking also?

 

You stated in the past airport IO's are "breaking the law". Yes they are.

 

Very soon land borders will also "break the law". Poipet has been doing just that for years.

 

Wanna bet nobody will care, apart from obviously the affected traveller?

 

It's their law. They can break it as they see fit.

 

Ministries dont make laws, Governments do. Thailand is largely ungoverned. There's at least three reports on that fact here on TV every day. Plus it's common knowledge. There is no co-ordinated connection or policy between the Government and the Ministries, filtering down into the regions and provinces. That's why its a bun fight. Just like the west, the Civil Service runs the country.

 

But that's well known, and that's why the plaintive cries of 'why?' and 'what they need to do!' and the absurd suggestion a few pages back that they all should speak fluent English, and abide by the way we do it is risible.

 

You want to come to a third world country, expect third world.

 

Why that should be a problem eludes me. You'll get what you're given.

[dotpoom]

On 7/4/2019 at 7:51 PM, KhaoYai said:

if only to show Thai Immigration that they are wrong? 

 

As if they would care two hoots about that?

[BritTim]

40 minutes ago, acenase said:

Does anyone know why the Tourist visa is still kept valid after being denied entry?

Immigration has no power to void visas issued (under the auspices of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs) at embassies/consulates. Doing it anyway would leave obvious evidence of their wrongdoing. While immigration has no compunction in breaking the law, they still want to be able to maintain plausible deniability.

[sambum]

On 7/4/2019 at 7:51 PM, KhaoYai said:

I don't know if this is possible but can you not engage a lawyer to sort this out - if only to show Thai Immigration that they are wrong? 

 

I understand that you don't want to stay in Thailand now but wouldn't it be satisfying to prove them wrong?

 

I asked a question about being able to appeal on another thread - I seem to remember being told that entrants could appeal but would be detained whilst the appeal was decided. You are already detained so nothing much to lose.

As soon as you mentioned "lawyer" your final 4 words become contradictory!

[wilailuk]

33 minutes ago, Traubert said:

It's their law. They can break it as they see fit.

 

Ministries dont make laws, Governments do. Thailand is largely ungoverned. There's at least three reports on that fact here on TV every day. Plus it's common knowledge. There is no co-ordinated connection or policy between the Government and the Ministries, filtering down into the regions and provinces. That's why its a bun fight. Just like the west, the Civil Service runs the country.

 

But that's well known, and that's why the plaintive cries of 'why?' and 'what they need to do!' and the absurd suggestion a few pages back that they all should speak fluent English, and abide by the way we do it is risible.

 

You want to come to a third world country, expect third world.

 

Why that should be a problem eludes me. You'll get what you're given.

Awesome post and clarity, many people forget where they are, in a country run by a Military Junta, and they still want it to be like "back home". I came here to avoid that crap, I like the chaos, the Patronage thing, the Puu Yai thing, the pi/nong thing, the core rup chon, the respect given to older people, now that I get older, I like all this and more... and I have friends in high places, yep.. Government and Police, if I need some assistance, but I behave, I don´t act "farang monkey stupid" - as I call it, no way, I give respect, and usually get the same back, so I don´t understand all this complaining and whining when you relocate 10/15/20K Km/Miles away from your home country, to a 3rd World country - wake up, damn it..

 

 

Edited July 5, 2019 by wilailuk

[lkv]

4 hours ago, JackThompson said:

Problems at Phuket and Samui are not new. They are airports to avoid ALWAYS if one has any past-history in Thailand beyond a few short stays, well spaced-apart - same as the Bangkok airports.

Well, then we pretty much ran out of airports. ????

 

What's left, Chiang Mai and U-Tapao?

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, Leaver said:

So, easy visa for those Thailand can exploit for cheap labor, but difficult visa for those that Thailand can't.

Exactly - those improving the lives of Thais by spending money are punished, while those undercutting Thais for jobs get a pass. 

 

2 hours ago, lkv said:

Like they care they break the law. Actually, they are being ordered to break the law by people from the top, who are lazy to change laws. So it's got their blessing. I don't believe in the "rogue" IO theory. It's a coordinated effort. When they go molesting people in the street asking them to pee in cups, what's that? Not law breaking also?

The law-breaking seems to be coordinated at the local-level - not from the top.  It would not be at all difficult for the Minister to write an order - similar to what was done regarding "2 visa exempts per calendar year." 

 

The "pee in a cup" bit got shut down by the higher-ups due to bad foreign-press - which I believe is the only potential solution here, also.

 

As to the 3rd world comments by a few posters - I have lived in many such-labeled countries, and always been treated much better by immigration officials than here.  I acted respectful, and so did they.  No such reciprocal honor and decency is consistent with Thai immigration - hit and miss at best.

 

6 minutes ago, lkv said:

Well, then we pretty much ran out of airports. ????

 

What's left, Chiang Mai and U-Tapao?

Yes on Chiang Mai with a Tourist Visa (so far - though I haven't been following closely recently).  U-Tapao may be ok, but not many reports to go by.  The others have been paid off by whoever wants anyone staying longer to make payoffs to do so.

Edited July 5, 2019 by JackThompson

[lkv]

1 minute ago, JackThompson said:

I have lived in many such-labeled countries, and always been treated much better by immigration officials than here.

Then I guess the only logical explanation is, they were not run by a military Junta friends with China?

[lkv]

9 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

The "pee in a cup" bit got shut down by the higher-ups due to bad foreign-press - which I believe is the only potential solution here, also.

"Pee in the cup" has more chances to be picked up by the media than: "foreigner was abusing tourist visas or he tried to enter Thailand broke (12.2). Beggars, begpackers....you know...we had articles.

 

As @BritTim was saying, plausible deniability.

 

PS: Actually, it was already picked up by the media. Can you not see all the examples of criminals that came to Thailand to abuse the visa system and commit all sorts of crimes, disguising themselves as tourists?

Edited July 5, 2019 by lkv

[lkv]

Ok so while browsing Facebook forums, just bumped into this thing.

 

I will attach it here and not open a new thread, since the OP got his tourist visa from Phnom Pehn. I do hope that he comes back to share more of his experience there. This is a recent example of a voided visa in Phnom Pehn. It's the first time ever that it states the reason for denial being too many tourist visas.

 

So this guy must have had all his docs in order. French. 47 yrs old.

 

Pfff....tough times ahead.

Edited July 5, 2019 by lkv

[tgeezer]

Since application fees are non refundable would it not be more fair of the Thai Consul in PP to simply refuse the application? 

They still get to ‘trouser’ the money with the advantage for the applicant that expense and discomfort is avoided.  

[lkv]

52 minutes ago, tgeezer said:

Since application fees are non refundable would it not be more fair of the Thai Consul in PP to simply refuse the application? 

They still get to ‘trouser’ the money with the advantage for the applicant that expense and discomfort is avoided.  

Got a visa from them in February. It was the 3rd one from Phnom Pehn and 5th in total. Had to go directly to Embassy, since the agent would not do it in less than 4 days. Embassy would do it in 2 days. 3rd day was a Thai holiday.

 

The chat went like this:

 

"All your documents are in order, however, you spent a long time in Thailand. I can take your application, but if the Consul doesn't sign it, it's your risk."

 

Followed by a lengthy argument, where my key bullets were: " reentry permits on the previous SETVs which indicating travelling" and "ticket to back home" (which I had)

 

"Can I talk to the Consul". No.

 

"If the Consul has more questions, can I give you my Cambodian number so that you give me a call?" Consul does not do interviews.

 

I think the Consul was actually passing by, since she spoke with a guy showing him my passport. Might have been him, I have no idea. May have worked in my favour.

 

I think ticket to home country made the differrence. Note, in 20 days. Not 60.

 

That and probably the 200K Thai bank statement (note that 20K or 21K  or 1,000 usd, whatever the minimum is, may not look awesome to the Consul). And combined with a 60 day cheap exit.

 

(My nationality does not qualify me for visa exempt, before you ask me why I applied for an SETV for such a short duration).

 

Bottom line: I put 40 dollars on the table and left. At my own risk. Visa came back in order with no blue stamp. The agent already warned me before that "many get voided". Mine wasn't.

 

This was February 2019, personal experience. What I am seeing now (July 2019), is worse than 5 months ago.

 

How they count them this month, f#ck knows. Maybe 3 from them, or 3 in total.

 

What's also concerning is that the OP, coming off a non B, got the other blue stamp. So I am guessing he did not please the consul much, wanting to be a tourist for 60 days with a flight in the region on day 60. If his proof of funds was also close to the minimum.....Kind of easy to presume "illegal work" rather than "sort out your affairs and go home". Then he gets rejected at Phuket airport.

 

He must have put 60 days at "duration of stay" on his TM6 also, that did not do him any favours I guess. Or he put 90!

 

Yeah, I hope he does come back and comment, but these are the triggers, as far as I am concerned.

Edited July 5, 2019 by lkv

[Time Traveller]

On 7/4/2019 at 5:35 AM, dtag said:

The arbitrariness of it makes it seem as if the immigration officers are just trying to fill a quota of people they refuse entry to.

yep. No matter that you follow their rules, have evidence of what you are doing, and how you dress, you are totally at the whims of some braindead immigration officer over whether you're allowed to stay in thailand, or must leave.

 

Of course, there'll be a few posters come on here and say they've never had a problem because they follow the rules, polite and dress nice. Well yeah. Probably because you live in Nakorn Nowhere, where you deal with the same immigration officer every time because absolutely no other public servant wants to transfer to the sticks.

However, in major centers - BKK / Phuket/ Hua Hin - it's a lottery on which immigration officer that you have to kowtow to. Some are just rude nasty people, that want nothing more than to piss foreigners off in order to make them feel important.

 

Thailand's immigration are the worst I've seen anywhere. And I regularly travel between USA, China, Thailand, and Australia 

Edited July 5, 2019 by Time Traveller

[lkv]

9 minutes ago, Time Traveller said:

Thailand's immigration are the worst I've seen anywhere. And I regularly travel between USA, China, Thailand, and Australia 

And you spend most of your time in......Thailand?

[KhaoYai]

4 hours ago, dotpoom said:

As if they would care two hoots about that?

You sound like the lawyer that told me I had no chance of winning a case against a large hospital group. I'm a farang, bound to lose, they don't care..........bla bla bla...........I won. Much the same here, everybody whinging but how many will actually make a complaint? Now let's guess you'll reply that I won against a hospital not Immigration. No doubt if things were reversed you'd tell me I wouldn't win against a hospital.

 

Believe me, if enough of a fuss is made about this that TAT feel there could be damage to tourism, something will be done.