Scooter Wreck and Passport Seizure

[leither69]

17 hours ago, intheheartoftheheart said:

Thanks Richard and Steve. 

 

They took my passport to 'make a copy' and then didn't give it back.

 

I offered 10k to the family today. They weren't happy with that number. I can try 20k as well.

 

Is it stupid to involve the insurance company from the scooter rental company?

 

 

 

 

So!! Your admitting liability?

[Baerboxer]

18 hours ago, intheheartoftheheart said:

Thanks Richard and Steve. 

 

They took my passport to 'make a copy' and then didn't give it back.

 

I offered 10k to the family today. They weren't happy with that number. I can try 20k as well.

 

Is it stupid to involve the insurance company from the scooter rental company?

 

 

 

 

 

Have you contacted your Embassy?

 

Most countries retain ownership of the passports they issue. It does not become your property - ever.

 

Therefore, the police have confiscated and are holding property of the US Government.

 

Getting the US Embassy / Consulate involved might have a sobering effect on the enterprising BiB who are presumably angling for some commission of the "victim"?

[Fred31]

18 hours ago, intheheartoftheheart said:

Thanks Richard and Steve. 

 

They took my passport to 'make a copy' and then didn't give it back.

 

I offered 10k to the family today. They weren't happy with that number. I can try 20k as well.

 

Is it stupid to involve the insurance company from the scooter rental company?

 

 

 

 

You should have called insurance company immediately! Normally they will come to the scene while the police are still there and fix things up. Now you are in a mess. Call them & get their lawyer involved, and hurry 

[Longcut]

18 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

Frazzled? - Tired or Drunk?

 

If it was not your fault, why would you be expected to pay anything?

 

If you were not drunk and not at fault, play firm. You don't have to pay anyone anything. They can try and get money from you, they can use threats etc... but in the end not much can be done other than create an inconvenience for you. The reason they expect or think you will pay is because other Westerners have wet their pants and paid up.

 

Trial over a damaged scooter ?? thats incredibly unlikely.

 

Report to your embassy that the Police have confiscated your passport and are shaking you down. 

Just tell them that the passport belongs to the U.S. State Dept. not you. I don't think it will do any good, but you might get some strange looks.  555

Edited August 28, 2019 by Longcut

[BestB]

13 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Have you contacted your Embassy?

 

Most countries retain ownership of the passports they issue. It does not become your property - ever.

 

Therefore, the police have confiscated and are holding property of the US Government.

 

Getting the US Embassy / Consulate involved might have a sobering effect on the enterprising BiB who are presumably angling for some commission of the "victim"?

All you guys are speaking in some theoretical terms. I have been through thai legal system and police CAN hold your passport while matter has been investigated.

 

yes you can call embassy and once you do, police will drum up charges and keep OP in the cells , is that better?

 

after my court case, police still insisted on holding my passport even though case was over . I went to court to ask for assistance , officially court gave me instructions on who to see and what paperwork to file to get my passport back, unofficially court suggested I do not do that, but sweet talk the captain and perhaps offer a thank you basket.

 

Why was my natural question and hint was he has the power to contact immigration with whatever info he likes and things can get uglier from there.

 

in case of OP, case is open sort of speak so police holding passport to make sure OP does not do the runner. As I said , police can arrest him and hold him in the cells or/and release him on 150000 bond, hardly a better solution.

 

OP has 2 choices, 1 is to negotiate and 2 to ask police if they are charging him with anything . If yes, he can refuse the charge of reckless driving and opt to have matter heard in court, spend 25000-50000 on legal fees or settle it in police station .

 

thai way of thinking is if he offered 10k it means he is willing to pay 20k

 

they will accept 15k easily. OP can make an ultimatum , all he pays is 10k and case closed or let it go to court .

 

most likely 10 k will be accepted and of course another 500-1000 for driving offence.

 

a buddy of mine was hit from the back by a 16 year old , no dl, no helmet . He ended up paying from memory around 12k. Why he paid ? Because going to court would have cost him double if not triple the amount.

 

of course off the record , OP can make lost passport report at another station, get a new one from the embassy and leave the country.

 

 

[richard_smith237]

8 minutes ago, BestB said:

All you guys are speaking in some theoretical terms. I have been through thai legal system and police CAN hold your passport while matter has been investigated.

 

yes you can call embassy and once you do, police will drum up charges and keep OP in the cells , is that better?

 

after my court case, police still insisted on holding my passport even though case was over . I went to court to ask for assistance , officially court gave me instructions on who to see and what paperwork to file to get my passport back, unofficially court suggested I do not do that, but sweet talk the captain and perhaps offer a thank you basket.

 

Why was my natural question and hint was he has the power to contact immigration with whatever info he likes and things can get uglier from there.

 

in case of OP, case is open sort of speak so police holding passport to make sure OP does not do the runner. As I said , police can arrest him and hold him in the cells or/and release him on 150000 bond, hardly a better solution.

 

OP has 2 choices, 1 is to negotiate and 2 to ask police if they are charging him with anything . If yes, he can refuse the charge of reckless driving and opt to have matter heard in court, spend 25000-50000 on legal fees or settle it in police station .

 

thai way of thinking is if he offered 10k it means he is willing to pay 20k

 

they will accept 15k easily. OP can make an ultimatum , all he pays is 10k and case closed or let it go to court .

 

most likely 10 k will be accepted and of course another 500-1000 for driving offence.

 

a buddy of mine was hit from the back by a 16 year old , no dl, no helmet . He ended up paying from memory around 12k. Why he paid ? Because going to court would have cost him double if not triple the amount.

 

of course off the record , OP can make lost passport report at another station, get a new one from the embassy and leave the country.

 

 

 

A pretty balanced view point highlighting the risks the Op faces. 

 

However, the BiB do not want to take anything to court as that takes up time and resources - such a threat is 'usually' empty. 

The Police Do not have the right to hold the Ops Passport unless the Op is charged with something - in this case, as BestB mentions it 'could be' reckless driving.

 

Also, in this situation the case against the Op seems so weak, with a kid riding illegally etc... that in the Ops shoes I'd be Politely, very stubborn about accepting any blame and discuss bringing charges against the family of the boy who allowed him on the road illegally.... Dipping a toe in the water so to speak. 

 

Having a 'respected Thai' onside makes the world of difference in situations like this. The Op is a regular visitor - does he [the Op] have any Thai friend in a respectable position?

 

An Additional point which doesn't really help the Op (that ship has sailed) - Getting a Dash-Cam / helmet cam for all transport is a must here. 

 

 

[sunnyboy2018]

19 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

Frazzled? - Tired or Drunk?

 

If it was not your fault, why would you be expected to pay anything?

 

If you were not drunk and not at fault, play firm. You don't have to pay anyone anything. They can try and get money from you, they can use threats etc... but in the end not much can be done other than create an inconvenience for you. The reason they expect or think you will pay is because other Westerners have wet their pants and paid up.

 

Trial over a damaged scooter ?? thats incredibly unlikely.

 

Report to your embassy that the Police have confiscated your passport and are shaking you down. 

Nice fantasy. He needs real advice.

[sunnyboy2018]

44 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Have you contacted your Embassy?

 

Most countries retain ownership of the passports they issue. It does not become your property - ever.

 

Therefore, the police have confiscated and are holding property of the US Government.

 

Getting the US Embassy / Consulate involved might have a sobering effect on the enterprising BiB who are presumably angling for some commission of the "victim"?

555 What embassy official, most of whom are locals, could be bothered to deal with such matters? Just not part of their job description.

[NoshowJones]

18 hours ago, intheheartoftheheart said:

Thanks Richard and Steve. 

 

They took my passport to 'make a copy' and then didn't give it back.

 

I offered 10k to the family today. They weren't happy with that number. I can try 20k as well.

 

Is it stupid to involve the insurance company from the scooter rental company?

 

 

 

 

Read the previous post

 

18 hours ago, intheheartoftheheart said:

Thanks Richard and Steve. 

 

They took my passport to 'make a copy' and then didn't give it back.

 

I offered 10k to the family today. They weren't happy with that number. I can try 20k as well.

 

Is it stupid to involve the insurance company from the scooter rental company?

 

 

 

 

If you are 100% not at fault, why are you offering them money, are you off your head?

Read the post from Richard Smith, he has it spot on.

[richard_smith237]

9 minutes ago, sunnyboy2018 said:

19 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

Frazzled? - Tired or Drunk?

 

If it was not your fault, why would you be expected to pay anything?

 

If you were not drunk and not at fault, play firm. You don't have to pay anyone anything. They can try and get money from you, they can use threats etc... but in the end not much can be done other than create an inconvenience for you. The reason they expect or think you will pay is because other Westerners have wet their pants and paid up.

 

Trial over a damaged scooter ?? thats incredibly unlikely.

 

Report to your embassy that the Police have confiscated your passport and are shaking you down. 

Nice fantasy. He needs real advice.

I've been in a similar situation (with a car Vs Illegally operated Mini-Van & Driver without Tax & Insurance who also tried to pay off the police) - the advice I offered worked very well in my favour and I ensured I could not face any compensation claims for injury. 

 

[moe666]

18 hours ago, intheheartoftheheart said:

No ticket given. No receipt either for the passport they are holding, which was stupid.

 

They went to the local hospital, not the fancy one. I took photos of the bills.

 

I will definitely ask to see the kid's license.

 

For the damage estimate: the family took me to their friendly Yamaha shop. To get an estimate on damage the people at the shop asked for 500 baht, which they would return after getting an estimate done. Has anyone heard of that practice before? I didn't pay and noped out of there. Will try for an estimate at another shop. Unless that is common practice.

 

My hunch is the local lawyers are in bed with the cops. I could be wrong. Lawyer is, I guess, the next step after insurance.

All your post here are disjointed you jump from one subject to another. Yes you could go to court but the police are using that as a threat. Call the embassy and explain the situation to them, there assistance could be good. But the police are trying for a big pay day as is the family. Going to court could take months. Ad it was the kids fault just stick with that everytime you talk to them. The old sying goes you make yourself guilty by talking to much. If you want to end this just tell them 10,000 not a penny more and you want your passport before handing over the money. 

[moe666]

Someone I know killed a old man drunk and on a bicycle, the police say he is not at fault and he walk from any police being involved. He did help the family out with some money. But the police do not always find you guilty no matter what the legal beagles at TV say. good luck with your interesting experience in Thailand.

 

No one likes to pay for something that was not their fault but we are in Thailand do what works for you no need to drag this out

 

[thailand49]

Here is my 2 baht!  I've done a number of these cases and I'm no lawyer down at local police stations.

 

Being a visitor and only 30 days you have your back up against the wall. All the stuff about what the police should or shouldn't do doesn't apply to you your fault or not because of your length of stay. Yes they got your passport that is the big catch without it you can extend and being overstay you open another can of worms even bigger than the accident.

 

If you were here much longer like all the friends I go down and talk to the police give them a good lesson as to why they can't do what they are doing and if they don't relent we just get up and walk and tell them all if you need us to come down again I will return with my lawyer.  Usually that is all it takes of course done with the same smile they like to give you but when they hear Lawyer it is usually me that is smiling.

 

Your situation do your best to say I don't work this is all I got left on my holiday and try to resolve it they play their games you play yours like a card game and see who blinks first? 

 

Let me open your eyes, the place you rented the bike there is no insurance 3rd party or 1st class insurance for you, you have a lot to learn before you rent a bike again!  The bike is most likely has the government insurance which covers your injuries medical wise in the range of 10,000-15,000 baht.

 

You can also see if the other party has a driver license but before you use this move make sure you yourself has a motorbike license or a international permit with motorbike endorsement otherwise you have no advantage on the other party. If he has register his bike he should have the government insurance which based on you post minor injuries he can get his visit covered.  If you have the funds and what to fight it based on principal then tell them you are going to get a lawyer then come back. Make sure the lawyer understand and agrees what is important is the law driver handbook not what the police think here the police duties aren't the same in the West.

 

But if you rented the bike being told you had insurance and no motorcycle license needed you are up against the wall. You can't created a case when you are just as wrong as the Thai driver!

[Paul944]

Well you should have ask for money instead of offering to pay 10,000 baht. Now you have admitted quilt. You will have to pay the rental company for the scooter damage and also for the days it will be in the repair shop while it could have been rented out.

 

About the passport, just ask the embassy how they are going to solve that. I don't think waiting for a court case is a reason for a visa extension.

[zaZa9]

When a scooter is taxed and registered , it carries 30,000 baht hospital coverage.  Its rare for scooters to carry property cover. Honda here in Phuket have just started requiring 500 baht to do quotes.

If you are at all responsible for damage to your rental bike , you should take care of that.

Will try now to post about hospital cover...

 

 

[Myran]

If it wasn't your fault you shouldn't pay anything. Let the insurance company deal with it. And don't listen to clueless individuals such as Steve, who seem hellbent on spreading the tripe that you as a foreigner will always be found guilty when an accident occurs, even if it's not your fault.

 

Myself and plenty of others can testify that that simply isn't the case, and that there's no reason to bend over and pay for something you're not responsible for.

[BritManToo]

10 hours ago, thaiguzzi said:

Hospital bills = zero payment. Unless he's broken an arm, wrist, leg. Superficial cuts and bruises is free treatment.

Scooter damage = 1-2k if you cannot get insurance co's involved.

It's always zero payment in a Thai government hospital, the Thai minimum insurance will pay the hospital directly.

(an old white guy I know toppled off his m/c and broke his hip, nobody else involved, plastered in the local hospital on production of his minimum insurance cert + police report)

 

The op is being subjected to a scam with the compliance of the local police.

 

Edited August 28, 2019 by BritManToo

[scubascuba3]

When a scooter is taxed and registered , it carries 30,000 baht hospital coverage.  Its rare for scooters to carry property cover. Honda here in Phuket have just started requiring 500 baht to do quotes.
If you are at all responsible for damage to your rental bike , you should take care of that.
Will try now to post about hospital cover...
 

 

Interesting image that. it says

- Report accident to police, i guess you get a accident number or something?

- Call insurance company 1791, just for a heads up i guess?

- Take insurance details, for compulsory insurance, I'm pretty sure that's just the number plate?

[scubascuba3]

production of his minimum insurance cert + police report)
 

There isn't an insurance cert as such it's just a receipt which they put in a tiny envelope

[Matzzon]

2 hours ago, sunnyboy2018 said:

555 What embassy official, most of whom are locals, could be bothered to deal with such matters? Just not part of their job description.

Really??? I call that Big BS.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Matzzon

[NCC1701A]

4 hours ago, thaiguzzi said:

Really?

Let us know how you got on.....

i got triggered by this story because i am still not over the psychological torture and extortion session i received at the hands of the Hua Hin police.

 

 

 

[dotpoom]

On 8/27/2019 at 10:51 PM, SteveK said:

Not sure why you handed over your passport,

Because, he said, they said they just wanted to photocopy it. Hard to deny them that, under the circumstances.

   Whether he should have been carrying it on him in the first place is another story.

[MadMuhammad]

On 8/28/2019 at 12:00 AM, SteveK said:

Thai insurance is worthless. It is worth less than a dog turd. 

Not true. Kor Ror Bor compulsory insurance covers an individual for up to 30K  hospital fees. All that needs to be done is get your initial treatment at an approved hospital then take your receipt to the KRB office and all future treatment is charged directly. Great system for minor injury/wound cleaning/check ups.  

Edited August 28, 2019 by MadMuhammad

[MadMuhammad]

9 hours ago, Myran said:

If it wasn't your fault you shouldn't pay anything. Let the insurance company deal with it. And don't listen to clueless individuals such as Steve, who seem hellbent on spreading the tripe that you as a foreigner will always be found guilty when an accident occurs, even if it's not your fault.

 

Myself and plenty of others can testify that that simply isn't the case, and that there's no reason to bend over and pay for something you're not responsible for.

Agreed. I have had 2 accidents with Thai nationals and at no time have I had to or have been asked to pay a single satang. 

[scubascuba3]

Not true. Kor Ror Bor compulsory insurance covers an individual for up to 30K  hospital fees. All that needs to be done is get your initial treatment at an approved hospital then take your receipt to the KRB office and all future treatment is charged directly. Great system for minor injury/wound cleaning/check ups.  

It appears to be the RVP office. In Pattaya this comes up. 

 

http://www.rvp.co.th/index_en.php

 

RVP Road Accident Victims Protection Co. Ltd.

159/3 หมู่ที่ 2 ถนน สุขุมวิท ตำบล บางละมุง Amphoe Bang Lamung, Chang Wat Chon Buri 20150

038 197 904

https://maps.app.goo.gl/ujMdAPVBXz5wyhG97

 

 

 

[RocketDog]

On 8/28/2019 at 6:13 AM, Tayaout said:

You did not give yourself some more time on your visa. At best you will get fined when exiting Thailand or worst the police will detain, deport and blacklist you. 

 

Be aware that your plan of back and forth via airplane will probably fail and you will get denied sooner than later. You should get a tourist visa in a nearby country so at least you will get 60 days extendable. Be aware that some embassy like Vientiane don't like to see extension in your passport. 

 

The back and forth strategy still work if you use any land border except Poipet but is limited to 2 per calendar year. 

To do as you suggest he must first gets a temporary passport from his embassy.

[RocketDog]

5 hours ago, dotpoom said:

Because, he said, they said they just wanted to photocopy it. Hard to deny them that, under the circumstances.

   Whether he should have been carrying it on him in the first place is another story.

Good point about why he was carrying it.

 

The law says he doesn't have to carry it at all times but he should always have a copy of the relevant pages.

 

When I go out for short trips to the market, gym, etc. without my wallet I carry a small plastic pouch with copies of my that DL, my passport page copies, my insurance card, and a card showing my full Thai address and telephone number along with a few hundred baht. That makes sense especially if I'm unconscious or otherwise incapacitated.

 

At a minimum the OP  could have just given the police his passport copy and then part of his current problem wouldn't exist.

 

I realize that this advice is too late for the OP, but I offer it to others reading this thread. Perhaps some, like me, study these threads to learn how to best handle these situations if they personally encounter them.

 

I'm going to download this thread and use my computer to excerpt relevant advice and references such as the insurance fact posters. Then I will summarize and make an action list with steps to take immediately at the accident scene. I will put this under the seat of my bike with my registration info.

 

A bit anal perhaps but "a stitch in time....." and all that. Most of us don't think clearly when in the midst of such situations.

 

For what it's worth, if anybody wants a copy of what I create just PM me and I'll return a PDF file you can print.

[scubascuba3]

Anyone know which hospitals in Pattaya will accept and arrange payment via compulsory AVP insurance?

[MrJ]

3 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

Anyone know which hospitals in Pattaya will accept and arrange payment via compulsory AVP insurance?

BPH for sure and assuming all do it......

[cracker1]

The Tax Sticker on each motorbike covers some personal accident insurance, I think up to about 50,000 TB, so that should cover the medical bills, and as the bikes were insured then let the companies sort that out.

Regarding your Passport, you could perhaps report it as "lost" and get a new one ?