Opponents of 'no-deal' Brexit defeat PM Johnson, who promises an election

[transam]

3 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

I'll consider it explained.......could the mods prorogued the Brexit threads until Parliament returns - it would save us all a lot of time. 

But then you would be lost for something to do....

[beautifulthailand99]

3 minutes ago, transam said:

But then you would be lost for something to do....

I've got plenty to do around the house /garden my wife certainly won't complain !

[7by7]

On 9/8/2019 at 12:05 PM, aright said:

What part of "It's called politics" don't you understand? Of course I can't give you an example of the mass expulsion of party members before...it hasn't happened ……….....On what grounds do you feel that should be precluded now though? What have these disingenuous people achieved in over 3 years?

The EU is now in collusion with the Remainers in Parliament to replace the U.K. government without a General Election with their plan for a Government of National “Remain” Unity.

They succeeded in Italy and Greece.

They must not succeed in the U.K. it would be shameful!

What the Government rebels don't understand is that, in taking away the Government's will they are killing the one positive, hopeful, development to have appeared on the scene since the Referendum. The majority of MP's are for Remain, to them, what the British People want is unimportant. They have sacrificed our independence on the altar of do nothing, just try to get in the way...…....a gross act of stupidity. Good Riddance!

Looking at many of your posts, I am not sure I can educate you about anything but I will ask you 2 questions.

How often in the history of British Politics have the Leaders of the main opposition parties refused an opportunity for a General Election?

It wouldn't be Politics would it?

 

 

 The main part of the above is, as usual from rabid Brexiteers, long on ranting, short on facts; and i am not sure I can educate you on the difference.

 

But, unlike the majority of Brexiteers, I will answer your questions.

 

"Of course I can't give you an example of the mass expulsion of party members before...it hasn't happened ……….....On what grounds do you feel that should be precluded now though? What have these disingenuous people achieved in over 3 years?"

 

For the same reason that May didn't expel those in her party who blocked her. You know, the disingenuous people like Rees-Mogg who put personal ambition above the country and stopped us from leaving the EU last March.

 

"How often in the history of British Politics have the Leaders of the main opposition parties refused an opportunity for a General Election?"

 

I don't know, can't be bothered to look it up and as you are  "not sure I can educate you about anything" you're not going to tell me.

 

"It wouldn't be Politics would it?"

 

So it's ok for Boris to play politics with the future of our county; ok for Rees-Mogg and his ERG to have done the same; but not ok for those who are trying to prevent the absolute disaster of a no deal. Got it. 

 

Tell you what' let's stop these MPs from playing politics with our future and putting personal ambition above the country and give the decision back to us in a final, legally binding referendum!

[transam]

1 minute ago, 7by7 said:

 The main part of the above is, as usual from rabid Brexiteers, long on ranting, short on facts; and i am not sure I can educate you on the difference.

 

But, unlike the majority of Brexiteers, I will answer your questions.

 

"Of course I can't give you an example of the mass expulsion of party members before...it hasn't happened ……….....On what grounds do you feel that should be precluded now though? What have these disingenuous people achieved in over 3 years?"

 

For the same reason that May didn't expel those in her party who blocked her. You know, the disingenuous people like Rees-Mogg who put personal ambition above the country and stopped us from leaving the EU last March.

 

"How often in the history of British Politics have the Leaders of the main opposition parties refused an opportunity for a General Election?"

 

I don't know, can't be bothered to look it up and as you are  "not sure I can educate you about anything" you're not going to tell me.

 

"It wouldn't be Politics would it?"

 

So it's ok for Boris to play politics with the future of our county; ok for Rees-Mogg and his ERG to have done the same; but not ok for those who are trying to prevent the absolute disaster of a no deal. Got it. 

 

Tell you what' let's stop these MPs from playing politics with our future and putting personal ambition above the country and give the decision back to us in a final, legally binding referendum!

And if Brexit wins again what happens.....?

[beautifulthailand99]

Looking into the abyss - what a difference a week makes. They say he was an emotional wreck when his brother resigned. And Amber Rudd was a personal friend. 

 

 

[7by7]

4 minutes ago, transam said:

6 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Tell you what' let's stop these MPs from playing politics with our future and putting personal ambition above the country and give the decision back to us in a final, legally binding referendum!

And if Brexit wins again what happens.....?

 As this time it will be a legally binding result, Parliament will have to act upon it and either leave with the deal or leave with no deal; whichever attracted the most votes.

[beautifulthailand99]

It is being reported in France that Macron will demand a minimum 2 year Extension when Johnson is forced to ask the EU on 19th October. In effect it will be Revocation of Article 50.

[stevenl]

1 minute ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

It is being reported in France that Macron will demand a minimum 2 year Extension when Johnson is forced to ask the EU on 19th October. In effect it will be Revocation of Article 50.

In my opinion something like that would make sense. In 3 years nothing, absolutely nothing, has been achieved, so why would that change in a short period of 3 months? The markets and economy need stability, not this 'let's do 3 months and then see' stuff.

[Jip99]

4 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

It is being reported in France that Macron will demand a minimum 2 year Extension when Johnson is forced to ask the EU on 19th October. In effect it will be Revocation of Article 50.

 

Good.

 

That will get Boris off the hook as it outside the mandate he was given by parliament. 

 

I am sure he will take great pleasure in handing M@cron a 100 Baht, Jomtien acquired, wristband that says “<deleted> the EU”.

[vogie]

14 minutes ago, transam said:

And if Brexit wins again what happens.....?

Referendums are non binding therefore any future referendums could and would be ignored by the likes of the Lib/Dems and the Greens, so for anybody to suggest another referendum is the answer to parliamentary impasse is using it to having another chance of stopping Brexit. Even if as suggested the referendum was made legal there would be no reason for future governments to reverse that legislation.

So which ever way remainers go on about another referendum it will solve nothing and we've already had a referendum, whether they chose to respect it or not, it is up to them, I just hope they stop with the excuses.

[7by7]

5 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

It is being reported in France that Macron will demand a minimum 2 year Extension when Johnson is forced to ask the EU on 19th October. In effect it will be Revocation of Article 50.

 Reported this morning on BBC Breakfast that the EU's position is Boris can't just present the old agreement with the bits he doesn't like crossed out; he has to present reasonable alternatives to those bits which he can guarantee are acceptable to the UK Parliament.

 

If he can't and follows the instruction from Parliament and asks for an extension instead, no matter how long, there is, of course, no guarantee that the EU will grant that request. 

 

In which case he gets his wish and we crash out without a deal; God help us!

[JamesBlond]

20 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 As this time it will be a legally binding result, Parliament will have to act upon it and either leave with the deal or leave with no deal; whichever attracted the most votes.

Enough of this 'legally binding' twaddle. What is the point of holding a referendum if the result is not bound to be enacted? The very fact that the vote was held is sufficient guarantee in the minds of everyone taking part that the result will be honoured no matter what the small print might say. Call it a promise, or a moral obligation, or the honour system - the actual fact is that the result cannot be ignored or rescinded without bringing down the foundation of democratic participation and confidence in the system. Apart from that it's just not British (I cling to the idea that such a thing still exists).

Btw, the 1975 vote was not 'legally binding' either, but we joined Europe without all this whining.

 

Edited September 10, 2019 by JamesBlond

[stevenl]

9 minutes ago, vogie said:

Referendums are non binding therefore any future referendums could and would be ignored by the likes of the Lib/Dems and the Greens, so for anybody to suggest another referendum is the answer to parliamentary impasse is using it to having another chance of stopping Brexit. Even if as suggested the referendum was made legal there would be no reason for future governments to reverse that legislation.

So which ever way remainers go on about another referendum it will solve nothing and we've already had a referendum, whether they chose to respect it or not, it is up to them, I just hope they stop with the excuses.

A referendum can be made binding.

[vogie]

Just now, stevenl said:

A referendum can be made binding.

It can be overturned/reversed too!

 

[welovesundaysatspace]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

It can be overturned/reversed too!

 

Everything can be overturned/reversed/changed by parliament; that’s what constitutes a parliamentary representative democracy. The only way around that would be to change the whole system to one that is governed by referendums. 

[tebee]

Just now, stevenl said:

A referendum can be made binding.

but not the one we just had - or indeed any one of that type, there must be a specific proposal voted on.

 

Otherwise what does leave mean ? besides leave??? leave means whatever you want at the time, some people think it is a blank check.

 

[JamesBlond]

9 minutes ago, stevenl said:

A referendum can be made binding.

They are all morally binding. The 'legally binding' thing is only to cover freak occurrences of corruption or debasement in some large-scale manner. An example: there was a vote to name a ship when the most popular choice was 'Boaty McBoatFace'. The non-binding clause was invoked because the organisers didn't expect that so many people would suggest the same thing for a laugh. With the EU vote, the choice was binary and the exit vote won. Accept it.

Edited September 10, 2019 by JamesBlond

[beautifulthailand99]

4 hours ago, Jip99 said:

 

Good.

 

That will get Boris off the hook as it outside the mandate he was given by parliament. 

 

I am sure he will take great pleasure in handing M@cron a 100 Baht, Jomtien acquired, wristband that says “<deleted> the EU”.

My wife wants me to remove it as it's a bit grubby - but it has brought good luck up till now so it would be bad luck to remove it just yet according to Thai superstition. You could always commission one from the street sellers who have had democracy betrayed. ????

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Everything can be overturned/reversed/changed by parliament; that’s what constitutes a parliamentary representative democracy. The only way around that would be to change the whole system to one that is governed by referendums. 

Why are you trying to convince me, it's me that said it?

[7by7]

3 minutes ago, JamesBlond said:

They are all morally binding. The 'legally binding' thing is only to cover freak occurrences of corruption or debasement in some large-scale manner. An example: there was a vote to name a ship when the most popular choice was 'Boaty McBoatFace'. The non-binding clause was invoked because the organisers didn't expect that so many people would suggest the same thing for a laugh. With the EU vote, the choice was binary and the exit vote won. Accept it.

 "The 'legally binding' thing is only to cover freak occurrences of corruption or debasement in some large-scale manner."

 

Like that carried out by the Leave campaign with their dubious financing, illegal targeting of voters via text etc.?

 

As mentioned many times in these topics, the High Court ruled that had the last referendum been legally binding, the unlawful tactics of the Leave campaign would mean the result was legally null and void!

 

BTW, the naming of the Antarctic research vessel was an online poll, not a referendum, and had nothing to do with Parliament nor the government!

[7by7]

26 minutes ago, vogie said:

Referendums are non binding therefore any future referendums could and would be ignored by the likes of the Lib/Dems and the Greens, so for anybody to suggest another referendum is the answer to parliamentary impasse is using it to having another chance of stopping Brexit. Even if as suggested the referendum was made legal there would be no reason for future governments to reverse that legislation.

Future governments can, of course, always reverse legislation passed by previous ones; but this government would have to act upon the result of a legally binding referendum.

 

30 minutes ago, vogie said:

 

So which ever way remainers go on about another referendum it will solve nothing and we've already had a referendum, whether they chose to respect it or not, it is up to them, I just hope they stop with the excuses.

Most Remainers, like myself, are only seeking a final, legally binding referendum because Rees-Mogg and others prevented Brexit from happening last March. (I'm sure the £7 million plus he's already made from his investments since the referendum, including the setting up of a fund in Dublin to give his company access to the EU markets post Brexit, had nothing to do with his tactics!)

 

 

 

 

[sandyf]

30 minutes ago, JamesBlond said:

Enough of this 'legally binding' twaddle. What is the point of holding a referendum if the result is not bound to be enacted? The very fact that the vote was held is sufficient guarantee in the minds of everyone taking part that the result will be honoured no matter what the small print might say. Call it a promise, or a moral obligation, or the honour system - the actual fact is that the result cannot be ignored or rescinded without bringing down the foundation of democratic participation and confidence in the system. Apart from that it's just not British (I cling to the idea that such a thing still exists).

Btw, the 1975 vote was not 'legally binding' either, but we joined Europe without all this whining.

 

Btw There was no vote to join Europe in 1975, UK joined on Jan 1st 1973.

There have only ever been 3 national referendums and the first 2 were merely a request for confidence in existing government policy. The 3rd was a shambles, the electorate being given a binary choice on an extremely complex issue without any structured plan.

It has become fairly obvious that at the time the politicians, and I mean all the politicians had little idea of what they were talking about. Farage pushed the immigration issue with threats of millions of Turks, Johnson and his mates just kept telling everyone how everything would be so easy. Cameron and Osborne were no better going off at a tangent with their predictions rather than sticking to the facts. Not one politician actually addressed any of the complexities such as the Belfast agreement, WTO, regulatory divergence, etc. If the politicians had no idea, what chance was there for the electorate.

If another referendum were to be held, it would be done with a much better understanding of the issues involved.

 

[7by7]

2 minutes ago, sandyf said:

<snip>

If another referendum were to be held, it would be done with a much better understanding of the issues involved.

 Which is why Brexiteers are so against the idea of another referendum. They fear that if the electorate are fully, or even partially, presented with all the issues, instead of Farage's threats and Cummings' pie in the sky, that they will lose; by a significant majority.

[7by7]

On 9/9/2019 at 7:33 AM, DannyCarlton said:

On 9/9/2019 at 7:26 AM, yogi100 said:

And I never said anyone did. It's a common assumption among Remainers that Brexiteers are too stupid to know what they voted for. 

 

In the UK the term ‘as thick as two planks’ is used when referring to those who are not too bright.

Actually, all Brits would know that the phrase is "As thick as two short planks". Typical error for a Russian spam bot to make.

 Or "As thick as a brick."

 

The line "I may make you feel, but I can't make you think." is very apt for these topics!

Edited September 10, 2019 by 7by7
Addendum

[beautifulthailand99]

22 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 Which is why Brexiteers are so against the idea of another referendum. They fear that if the electorate are fully, or even partially, presented with all the issues, instead of Farage's threats and Cummings' pie in the sky, that they will lose; by a significant majority.

Nobody votes to get poorer other than a fool. You are correct and here's the graph. 

 

 

[johnnybangkok]

19 minutes ago, JamesBlond said:

Enough of this 'legally binding' twaddle. What is the point of holding a referendum if the result is not bound to be enacted? The very fact that the vote was held is sufficient guarantee in the minds of everyone taking part that the result will be honoured no matter what the small print might say. Call it a promise, or a moral obligation, or the honour system - the actual fact is that the result cannot be ignored or rescinded without bringing down the foundation of democratic participation and confidence in the system. Apart from that it's just not British (I cling to the idea that such a thing still exists).

Btw, the 1975 vote was not 'legally binding' either, but we joined Europe without all this whining.

 

Ahhh the simplistic logic of the typical Brexit fan. Ok let me spell this out, hopefully once and for all.

 

This is how it is from the Remain camp.

 

In an effort to have a final say on the EU question (one that many governments had been dodging for an awful long time) David Cameron in his infinite wisdom decides to hold a referendum. Despite the fact the referendums are not legally binding in the UK (we are a parliamentary democracy after all) he commits us all to the result with a 'parliament will honour the vote'.

 

On a 75% turnout, Leave wins by a tiny majority. There's lots of fingers pointing at the likes of Cambridge Analytica,  Russian interference and blatant lying and scaremongering from both camps.

 

The Remain camp looks on in astonishment and although very unhappy, they reluctantly accept the result (myself included).

 

Then the fun and games begin.

 

Brexit fans had been sold on the idea that we would leave with all the best bits but it soon becomes apparent that unlike before when we had loads of opt-outs, now we want lots of opt-ins that the EU are not willing to agree. This leaves us in a very difficult negotiating position as despite what all the Brexit fans cry, there never really was a plan and amazingly enough, all the main proponents of Brexit (BoJo, Farange, JRM etc) seem to have skulked into the background with nothing but empty rhetoric to help their cause.

 

The Remainers look on in feigned surprise when the EU do what the EU was always going to do and don't play ball.  

 

May is elected, May loses her majority. May now has to depend on the DUP, a bunch of self-interested fanatics to get anything passed in parliament. She comes back from Europe with a deal, a deal that allows the UK to leave the EU but leaves some economic protection. This is not good enough for the Brexit fans and it gets voted down 3 times in parliament because it still leaves us too tied to Europe (how we were ever going to be so untied with all the benefits is of course never explained) and the issue of an Irish backstop (something that was never even mentioned in the Referendum) rears it's ugly head.

Exasperated and defeated May resigns.

 

The Remainers look on with abject incredulity.

 

The Tories then decide to have a little vote amongst themselves and surprise, surprise BoJo is elected PM with no mandate from the people, just a few of the party faithful. He then just jumps right in there with a no-deal scenario, one that was never on the cards, never part of the original proposal and in fact was ruled a no-go from MP's on both sides. Despite this, hard core Brexit fans are bellowing that it was always an option and now seems to be the only one available. Most economists and business leaders are warning of the disaster of a no-deal. Health leaders warning of chaos with the NHS stockpiling medicines and desperate about staffing levels. The CBI and TUC all warning about a no-deal Brexit yet this is all brushed aside with a casual 'Project Fear' cry. 

 

The Remainers are beginning to get REALLY pi**ed off.

 

Bojo tries to suspend parliament in a deliberate attempt to steamroll through his no-deal Brexit but before then, extraordinary scenes in Parliament when 21 of his fellow Tories vote against him and are subsequently sacked. His own brother then resigns, a fellow Tory defects to the Lib/Dems and a cabinet minister resigns.

 

Remainers are thinking this is just a complete and utter farce. The UK is an embarrassment. 

 

Parliament is now suspended for 5 weeks. We are no closer to agreeing a Brexit deal and if anything we are further away. The EU is getting impatient and may not grant an extension to the 31st October deadline, which I think we can all agree is never going to happen.

But yeah. Leave means Leave. We must respect the democratic decisions of some whilst ignoring the democratic principals that have held the country together for centuries. We are 3.5 years later and don't seem to be any further forward because IT WAS A BAD IDEA FROM THE BEGINNING.

 

So stick your referendum where the sun don't shine. You had a chance to leave the EU and it's been nothing short of a disaster since then. Get us another referendum and we will see who still supports this madness. 

  

 

     

[beautifulthailand99]

12 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

Ahhh the simplistic logic of the typical Brexit fan. Ok let me spell this out, hopefully once and for all.

 

This is how it is from the Remain camp.

 

In an effort to have a final say on the EU question (one that many governments had been dodging for an awful long time) David Cameron in his infinite wisdom decides to hold a referendum. Despite the fact the referendums are not legally binding in the UK (we are a parliamentary democracy after all) he commits us all to the result with a 'parliament will honour the vote'.

 

On a 75% turnout, Leave wins by a tiny majority. There's lots of fingers pointing at the likes of Cambridge Analytica,  Russian interference and blatant lying and scaremongering from both camps.

 

The Remain camp looks on in astonishment and although very unhappy, they reluctantly accept the result (myself included).

 

Then the fun and games begin.

 

Brexit fans had been sold on the idea that we would leave with all the best bits but it soon becomes apparent that unlike before when we had loads of opt-outs, now we want lots of opt-ins that the EU are not willing to agree. This leaves us in a very difficult negotiating position as despite what all the Brexit fans cry, there never really was a plan and amazingly enough, all the main proponents of Brexit (BoJo, Farange, JRM etc) seem to have skulked into the background with nothing but empty rhetoric to help their cause.

 

The Remainers look on in feigned surprise when the EU do what the EU was always going to do and don't play ball.  

 

May is elected, May loses her majority. May now has to depend on the DUP, a bunch of self-interested fanatics to get anything passed in parliament. She comes back from Europe with a deal, a deal that allows the UK to leave the EU but leaves some economic protection. This is not good enough for the Brexit fans and it gets voted down 3 times in parliament because it still leaves us too tied to Europe (how we were ever going to be so untied with all the benefits is of course never explained) and the issue of an Irish backstop (something that was never even mentioned in the Referendum) rears it's ugly head.

Exasperated and defeated May resigns.

 

The Remainers look on with abject incredulity.

 

The Tories then decide to have a little vote amongst themselves and surprise, surprise BoJo is elected PM with no mandate from the people, just a few of the party faithful. He then just jumps right in there with a no-deal scenario, one that was never on the cards, never part of the original proposal and in fact was ruled a no-go from MP's on both sides. Despite this, hard core Brexit fans are bellowing that it was always an option and now seems to be the only one available. Most economists and business leaders are warning of the disaster of a no-deal. Health leaders warning of chaos with the NHS stockpiling medicines and desperate about staffing levels. The CBI and TUC all warning about a no-deal Brexit yet this is all brushed aside with a casual 'Project Fear' cry. 

 

The Remainers are beginning to get REALLY pi**ed off.

 

Bojo tries to suspend parliament in a deliberate attempt to steamroll through his no-deal Brexit but before then, extraordinary scenes in Parliament when 21 of his fellow Tories vote against him and are subsequently sacked. His own brother then resigns, a fellow Tory defects to the Lib/Dems and a cabinet minister resigns.

 

Remainers are thinking this is just a complete and utter farce. The UK is an embarrassment. 

 

Parliament is now suspended for 5 weeks. We are no closer to agreeing a Brexit deal and if anything we are further away. The EU is getting impatient and may not grant an extension to the 31st October deadline, which I think we can all agree is never going to happen.

But yeah. Leave means Leave. We must respect the democratic decisions of some whilst ignoring the democratic principals that have held the country together for centuries. We are 3.5 years later and don't seem to be any further forward because IT WAS A BAD IDEA FROM THE BEGINNING.

 

So stick your referendum where the sun don't shine. You had a chance to leave the EU and it's been nothing short of a disaster since then. Get us another referendum and we will see who still supports this madness. 

  

 

     

[Forethat]

12 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

So stick your referendum where the sun don't shine. You had a chance to leave the EU and it's been nothing short of a disaster since then. Get us another referendum and we will see who still supports this madness.      

So what you're saying is that you lot have managed to fight off the will of the people? In addition, you're blaming the people for your interference. Cute.

 

Was it Jack Sparrow or a Limp Remainer who once said: "“I'm dishonest, and a dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest"

[beautifulthailand99]

2 minutes ago, Forethat said:

So what you're saying is that you lot have managed to fight off the will of the people? In addition, you're blaming the people for your interference. Cute.

 

Was it Jack Sparrow or a Limp Remainer who once said: "“I'm dishonest, and a dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest"

kerching...

 

[DannyCarlton]

7 minutes ago, Forethat said:

So what you're saying is that you lot have managed to fight off the will of the people? In addition, you're blaming the people for your interference. Cute.

 

Was it Jack Sparrow or a Limp Remainer who once said: "“I'm dishonest, and a dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest"

Outrageous! We'd never steal Boris Cummings' catchphrase.