Over to EU on Brexit delay, Johnson says after parliament rejects swift decision

[webfact]

Over to EU on Brexit delay, Johnson says after parliament rejects swift decision

By William James, Kylie MacLellan and Elizabeth Piper

 

Britain's Prime Minister Boris Johnson is seen at the House of Commons in London, Britain October 22, 2019. ©UK Parliament/Jessica Taylor/Handout via REUTERS

 

LONDON (Reuters) - British Prime Minister Boris Johnson said on Tuesday it was up to the EU to decide whether it wanted to delay Brexit and for how long, after a defeat in parliament made ratification of his deal by the Oct. 31 deadline almost impossible.

 

As the clock ticks down to the deadline for Britain's departure, Brexit is hanging in the balance as a divided parliament debates when, how and even whether it should happen.

 

In another day of Brexit drama in the 800-year-old Westminster parliament, lawmakers handed Johnson the first major parliamentary victory of his premiership by signalling their support for his deal in an early legislative hurdle.

 

But that was overshadowed just minutes later when parliament defeated him on his timetable to rush the legislation through the House of Commons in just three days.

 

Lawmakers voted 329 to 299 in favour of the second reading of the legislation for the deal - still no guarantee of success since the bill could be amended by lawmakers who want changes.

 

They then voted 322 to 308 against Johnson's extremely tight timetable, which the government has repeatedly said is necessary to reach Johnson's target of leaving on Oct. 31.

 

Britain can begin to heal and unite if lawmakers pass legislation to ratify the government's Brexit deal with the European Union, Prime Minister Boris Johnson said on Tuesday. Rough cut (no reporter narration).

 

"I must express my disappointment that the House has yet again voted for delay," Johnson told parliament.

 

The next step, he said, would be waiting for the EU to respond to a request to delay the Oct. 31 Brexit date, which Johnson reluctantly sent to Brussels on Saturday after being forced to do so by lawmakers.

 

"The EU must now make up their minds over how to answer parliament's request for a delay," he said. "The government must take the only responsible course and accelerate our preparations for a no-deal outcome."

 

Johnson was forced by opponents into the humiliation of asking the EU for the delay after vowing he would never seek one, but had still hoped to make the request unnecessary by passing the Brexit law fast enough to leave on time.

 

"I will speak to EU member states about their intentions, until they have reached a decision we will pause this legislation," Johnson said. "Let me be clear, our policy remains that we should not delay."

 

The pound fell 0.6% to $1.2881, off the 5-1/2 month highs hit earlier in the session on optimism about the deal.

 

EU TO DELAY?

The EU has not yet formally responded to Johnson's unsigned photocopy of a letter asking for more time.

 

The length of any extension could decide the course of Brexit: a long delay would allow opponents of the divorce to push for another referendum. A short delay might increase pressure on parliament to approve a deal.

 

The European Commission took note on Tuesday of the vote in the British parliament and said it would wait for London to tell it what's next.

 

"European Council President (Donald Tusk) is consulting leaders on the UK’s request for an extension until 31 January 2020," she said. A spokesman for Tusk declined comment.

 

Senior EU officials said the 27 countries that would remain in the EU after Britain leaves would "certainly not" react immediately. "We stay calm," one senior diplomat said.

 

Irish PM Leo Varadkar welcomed the vote in favour of Johnson's legislation.

 

"We will now await further developments from London and Brussels about next steps including timetable for the legislation and the need for an extension," Varadkar said.

 

Ahead of the vote, Johnson had warned parliament that if it defeated him on the timetable and forced a delay until January then he would abandon his attempt to ratify the deal and push for an election instead under the slogan of "Get Brexit Done".

 

In his statement after the votes in parliament, Johnson did not mention an election. Johnson would need the support of parliament to call one.

 

Opposition Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn called on Johnson to work with other parties to ensure a reasonable timetable to discuss the deal. Some in the Labour Party expect a short extension, with Brexit being resolved and then an election within months.

 

Behind the daily Brexit combat in parliament, in the courts and at late-night EU summits, a much bigger game is being played over whether Brexit will happen at all.

 

Johnson faces legislative booby traps at every juncture, but the opponents of Brexit are also deeply divided - one of the reasons their campaign to "Remain" failed in the 2016 vote.

 

(Additional reporting by Andrew MacAskill, William James, Paul Sandle, Kate Holton, Alistair Smout and Stephen Addison in London and John Chalmers in Brussels; writing by Guy Faulconbridge; Editing by Peter Graff)

 

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2019-10-23

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[Samui Bodoh]

 It is clear that the UK is leaving the EU.

 

That said, at the moment it seems like the prime consideration in every decision is Boris' political future and pre-positioning for the next election.

 

This is a momentous, historic time for the UK; it is unseemly that it be sullied for raw, partisan considerations.

 

History will not be kind...

 

 

[katana]

Why don't they just have a vote on removing democracy from Britain and admit they are a dictatorship?

[tebee]

6 minutes ago, Samui Bodoh said:

 It is clear that the UK is leaving the EU.

 

That said, at the moment it seems like the prime consideration in every decision is Boris' political future and pre-positioning for the next election.

 

This is a momentous, historic time for the UK; it is unseemly that it be sullied for raw, partisan considerations.

 

History will not be kind...

 

 

Not a chance of us leaving - you have to remember it's Brexiters who are trying to organise this...

[Chomper Higgot]

2 hours ago, katana said:

Why don't they just have a vote on removing democracy from Britain and admit they are a dictatorship?

I think Johnson understands he’d lose the vote, otherwise I’m sure he’d try.

[Chomper Higgot]

“British Prime Minister Boris Johnson said on Tuesday it was up to the EU to decide whether it wanted to delay Brexit and for how long, after a defeat in parliament”

 

It’s always somebody else’s fault.

[Chomper Higgot]

2 hours ago, Victornoir said:

Clearly, the members are rather in favor of the agreement but they refuse a hasty vote without discussion.
It seems perfectly normal. Johnson despised his parliament and he is paying for it now.
The good news is that this agreement will end up being approved to get out of this soap opera a bit too long. 

I’m not sure how you conclude members are in favor of a deal they have just rejected and have not had time to examine.

 

The preliminary reading of the deal reveals clauses and edits from the previous deal that are problematic for worker and work place rights and much more.

 

Oh and the DUP aren’t keen either.

 

At the very least the deal reveals the government laying the ground work for a post Brexit attack on the regulations that protect ordinary people from Corporate and Government abuses.

 

This deal needs close detailed scrutiny, something Johnson is very clearly opposed to.

 

He won’t even release the Government ‘s own impact assessment - doff your hat and do as you are told.

[nobodysfriend]

What might be the name of the ( poor ) bull ...? EU ? or GB ?

And where are they going to ... ?

Just hope they find a way out , soon .

[soalbundy]

How many series does this soap have? whatever it's not as good as 'game of thrones', he hasn't got one single dragon, his chance of sitting on the iron throne are nil.

[OneMoreFarang]

I just read this wonderful analogy. Enjoy!

 

"Johnson compares the process to climbing Everest, as if having voted for Brexit the UK knew exactly where it was heading, and just needed the grit to reach the summit. But here’s a more realistic analogy. Imagine a friend has spent months meticulously planning her wedding, only to discover something the night before that suggests her fiance isn’t the person she thought she knew. She asks straight out if the rumours are true, but all he will say is that it’s too late to cancel the caterers – and besides, the guests are really looking forward to it. Would you advise her to get married regardless, or hold out for a straight answer? And what if her fiance, like the prime minister, has a reputation for fibbing in a tight corner?"

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/22/today-brexit-debate-lack-of-information-sajid-javid-johnson-deal

 

[OneMoreFarang]

30 minutes ago, nobodysfriend said:

What might be the name of the ( poor ) bull ...? EU ? or GB ?

And where are they going to ... ?

Just hope they find a way out , soon .

At least one of them has big ears and should be able to listen. The other one not so much.

[Bluespunk]

4 hours ago, katana said:

Why don't they just have a vote on removing democracy from Britain and admit they are a dictatorship?

Because that’s not true. 

[phantomfiddler]

4 hours ago, katana said:

Why don't they just have a vote on removing democracy from Britain and admit they are a dictatorship?

Dictatorship by parliament, not Boris, but democracy has gone out of the window thanks to these jumped up children who are not heeding the wishes of the people who put them in power ????

[Bluespunk]

Oh dear, johnson having another of his hissy fits. 
 

His deal has been accepted and that’s all well and good. 
 

Now, because Parliament wishes enough time to examine it and amend it, he suspends the whole process. 
 

So it seems johnson doesn’t want his “excellent” deal scrutinised, wonder why...could it be that he just does not like digging ditches or maybe his deal isn’t as “excellent” as he claims?

 

Probably both. 

Edited October 23, 2019 by Bluespunk

[Chomper Higgot]

23 minutes ago, phantomfiddler said:

Dictatorship by parliament, not Boris, but democracy has gone out of the window thanks to these jumped up children who are not heeding the wishes of the people who put them in power ????

‘Dictatorship by Parliament’

 

The lexicon of Brexiteer nonsense gets another entry.

 

For the sake Saving embarrassing our Brexiteer brethren don’t file this one next to ‘We want our Parliamentary Sovereignty back’.

 

 

Edited October 23, 2019 by Chomper Higgot

[cyril sneer]

Parliament is a disgrace. Everything would have gone smoothly if it wasn’t for them. 

[JonnyF]

5 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

 It is clear that the UK is leaving the EU.

 

That said, at the moment it seems like the prime consideration in every decision is Boris' political future and pre-positioning for the next election.

 

This is a momentous, historic time for the UK; it is unseemly that it be sullied for raw, partisan considerations.

 

History will not be kind...

 

 

History will be extremely kind to him if he holds a general election and then takes us out with a clean break due to a huge majority.

 

His hands are tied right now. Parliament, the speaker, the judiciary, the MSM (bbc, channel 4 , the guardian etc) are all against him with the intention of overturning the democratic result. Tieing themselves in knots to try and justify their Elitist, Anti democratic position.

 

If he sticks to his guns he will create an awesome legacy. Let's see if he is brave enough, if not The Brexit Party will take over and do it for him.

[JAG]

5 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

 It is clear that the UK is leaving the EU.

 

That said, at the moment it seems like the prime consideration in every decision is Boris' political future and pre-positioning for the next election.

 

This is a momentous, historic time for the UK; it is unseemly that it be sullied for raw, partisan considerations.

 

History will not be kind...

 

 

It is not at all clear that the UK is leaving the EU.

 

It is clear that the people of the UK voted three years ago in a simple binary question referendum (in or out). They voted by a clear majority. Not a particularly large majority but a clear majority nonetheless.

 

It is also clear that in the subsequent General Election the overwhelming majority of MPs returned were returned because their party manifestos were quite explicit in stating that they would enact the decision in the referendum, and the UK would leave the EU.

 

It is also clear that the Parliament produced by that General Election passed legislation to enact that referendum decision.

 

Now that Parliament, or a very slight majority of it's members, is deliberately frustrating attempts to enact that referendum decision, and prevent the legislation which they themselves passed to enable the UK to leave the EU from being carried out. That occurs for a number of reasons, party opportunism on the part of some (Labour and to a lesser extent the SNP), an internal party feud on the part of elements within the Tory party unable to accept defeat in the recent election contest, and perhaps enabled by the vanity of the Speaker! The common thread however is that the Parliament has reneged on of if not the major reasons it was elected. Having done so they are not prepared to "go to the country", to allow the people to express their opinions in an election. They (the Parliament) have created the need and demand for an election by their behaviour in the past few weeks. They claim that there is no mandate for leaving on the present terms available - well ask the people for that mandate through an election; they claim that the current Prime Minister is not a fit and proper person to hold the position - well ask the people through an election; some claim that the UK should not after all leave the EU - well ask the people (again)!

 

The most cynical actions, from a Parliament which claims to be representative of the people which elected it, is that they refuse to allow the people to make their decision, through a General Election.

 

You are right, history will not be kind. It will not be kind to this parliament, which will be for a long time be held up as an example of a failure of representative democracy. Very sad, considering Westminsters reputation to be the home of representative parliamentary democracy.

[Chomper Higgot]

3 hours ago, JonnyF said:

History will be extremely kind to him if he holds a general election and then takes us out with a clean break due to a huge majority.

 

His hands are tied right now. Parliament, the speaker, the judiciary, the MSM (bbc, channel 4 , the guardian etc) are all against him with the intention of overturning the democratic result. Tieing themselves in knots to try and justify their Elitist, Anti democratic position.

 

If he sticks to his guns he will create an awesome legacy. Let's see if he is brave enough, if not The Brexit Party will take over and do it for him.

The law and Parliamentary checks and balances are preventing him dictating policy by executive order.

 

Where was your defense of ‘Democracy’ when he unlawfully prorogued Parliament?

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

3 hours ago, JAG said:

It is not at all clear that the UK is leaving the EU.

 

It is clear that the people of the UK voted three years ago in a simple binary question referendum (in or out). They voted by a clear majority. Not a particularly large majority but a clear majority nonetheless.

 

It is also clear that in the subsequent General Election the overwhelming majority of MPs returned were returned because their party manifestos were quite explicit in stating that they would enact the decision in the referendum, and the UK would leave the EU.

 

It is also clear that the Parliament produced by that General Election passed legislation to enact that referendum decision.

 

Now that Parliament, or a very slight majority of it's members, is deliberately frustrating attempts to enact that referendum decision, and prevent the legislation which they themselves passed to enable the UK to leave the EU from being carried out. That occurs for a number of reasons, party opportunism on the part of some (Labour and to a lesser extent the SNP), an internal party feud on the part of elements within the Tory party unable to accept defeat in the recent election contest, and perhaps enabled by the vanity of the Speaker! The common thread however is that the Parliament has reneged on of if not the major reasons it was elected. Having done so they are not prepared to "go to the country", to allow the people to express their opinions in an election. They (the Parliament) have created the need and demand for an election by their behaviour in the past few weeks. They claim that there is no mandate for leaving on the present terms available - well ask the people for that mandate through an election; they claim that the current Prime Minister is not a fit and proper person to hold the position - well ask the people through an election; some claim that the UK should not after all leave the EU - well ask the people (again)!

 

The most cynical actions, from a Parliament which claims to be representative of the people which elected it, is that they refuse to allow the people to make their decision, through a General Election.

 

You are right, history will not be kind. It will not be kind to this parliament, which will be for a long time be held up as an example of a failure of representative democracy. Very sad, considering Westminsters reputation to be the home of representative parliamentary democracy.

Alternatively, it’s a <deleted> deal that includes very real threats to workers rights, environmental protections and consumer rights, presented by a PM that nobody trusts and who is hiding the Government’s own impact assessment.

 

 

The wonder is so few MP’s rejected Johnson’s 

”Trust me gov, no need to lift The bonnet” deal.

[dunroaming]

10 hours ago, katana said:

Why don't they just have a vote on removing democracy from Britain and admit they are a dictatorship?

And the dictator being who?  Actually this is democracy in action.  That is why Johnsons bully boy tactics are being defeated.  His threats, which he never goes through with, are simply dismissed as the rantings of a fool.

 

But he has got the second reading through with a majority, as predicted.  People are prepared to accept Brexit with a deal, not because it is the best thing but because there has to be a form of closure allowing the start of a healing process for the country.  I don't want a second referendum, I think that would just add to the vitriol.  I would sooner accept a Brexit deal with amendments to include a customs union, amongst other things.  

 

Our politicians have screwed up the country and there is no way to turn back the clock on that. 

 

 

[Nigel Garvie]

5 hours ago, JAG said:

 

 

Now that Parliament, or a very slight majority of it's members, is deliberately frustrating attempts to enact that referendum decision, and prevent the legislation which they themselves passed to enable the UK to leave the EU from being carried out. That occurs for a number of reasons, party opportunism on the part of some (Labour and to a lesser extent the SNP), an internal party feud on the part of elements within the Tory party unable to accept defeat in the recent election contest, and perhaps enabled by the vanity of the Speaker! The common thread however is that the Parliament has reneged on of if not the major reasons it was elected. Having done so they are not prepared to "go to the country", to allow the people to express their opinions in an election. They (the Parliament) have created the need and demand for an election by their behaviour in the past few weeks. They claim that there is no mandate for leaving on the present terms available - well ask the people for that mandate through an election; they claim that the current Prime Minister is not a fit and proper person to hold the position - well ask the people through an election; some claim that the UK should not after all leave the EU - well ask the people (again)!

 

The most cynical actions, from a Parliament which claims to be representative of the people which elected it, is that they refuse to allow the people to make their decision, through a General Election.

 

You are right, history will not be kind. It will not be kind to this parliament, which will be for a long time be held up as an example of a failure of representative democracy. Very sad, considering Westminsters reputation to be the home of representative parliamentary democracy.

Oh Dear! How many times does it have to be said, please get a grip on the fact that representatives are not delegates, you even said it yourself - "Westminsters reputation to be the home of representative parliamentary democracy." MPs are not delegates, they are not servants required to carry out their work in a subservient obedient way to the wishes of some of their constituents (Often only getting 30% of the local vote). We elect them to represent us - we expect them to use their own judgement as to what is best for the country. The advisory referendum was idiotically simplistically worded, and as a result we have other posters here saying essentially "We just leave....simples". Duh it's not simple like that, as a primary school child should know.

 

"well ask the people through an election; some claim that the UK should not after all leave the EU - well ask the people (again)!"

Precisely - I agree 100% - ask the people again. However do it through a referendum that addresses the big question only - Brexit. A GE is supposed to be , and automatically will be, about many other issues as well, so it will ABSOLUTELY NOT be a sound guide to what the people feel about Brexit. 

For the Tory Tabloids it will be all about persuading the English working class that Corbyn is a commie, for example.  

 

[Chomper Higgot]

6 hours ago, cyril sneer said:

Parliament is a disgrace. Everything would have gone smoothly if it wasn’t for them. 

And the trains would run on time.

[Forethat]

25 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

Oh Dear! How many times does it have to be said, please get a grip on the fact that representatives are not delegates, you even said it yourself - "Westminsters reputation to be the home of representative parliamentary democracy." MPs are not delegates, they are not servants required to carry out their work in a subservient obedient way to the wishes of some of their constituents (Often only getting 30% of the local vote). We elect them to represent us - we expect them to use their own judgement as to what is best for the country. The advisory referendum was idiotically simplistically worded, and as a result we have other posters here saying essentially "We just leave....simples". Duh it's not simple like that, as a primary school child should know.

 

"well ask the people through an election; some claim that the UK should not after all leave the EU - well ask the people (again)!"

Precisely - I agree 100% - ask the people again. However do it through a referendum that addresses the big question only - Brexit. A GE is supposed to be , and automatically will be, about many other issues as well, so it will ABSOLUTELY NOT be a sound guide to what the people feel about Brexit. 

For the Tory Tabloids it will be all about persuading the English working class that Corbyn is a commie, for example.  

 

So what you're saying is that in case Farage and his ilk manages to scrape up, let's say 100 seats, that could be a direct result of a political aspiration to reduce the VAT on frozen parsley?

Edited October 23, 2019 by Forethat

[JAG]

4 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

Oh Dear! How many times does it have to be said, please get a grip on the fact that representatives are not delegates, you even said it yourself - "Westminsters reputation to be the home of representative parliamentary democracy." MPs are not delegates, they are not servants required to carry out their work in a subservient obedient way to the wishes of some of their constituents (Often only getting 30% of the local vote). We elect them to represent us - we expect them to use their own judgement as to what is best for the country. The advisory referendum was idiotically simplistically worded, and as a result we have other posters here saying essentially "We just leave....simples". Duh it's not simple like that, as a primary school child should know.

 

"well ask the people through an election; some claim that the UK should not after all leave the EU - well ask the people (again)!"

Precisely - I agree 100% - ask the people again. However do it through a referendum that addresses the big question only - Brexit. A GE is supposed to be , and automatically will be, about many other issues as well, so it will ABSOLUTELY NOT be a sound guide to what the people feel about Brexit. 

For the Tory Tabloids it will be all about persuading the English working class that Corbyn is a commie, for example.  

 

Oh dear, how many times must it be pointed out that winning a seat on the basis of a particular policy commitment (in this case leaving the EU) and having legislated for that, to cynically frustrate that, is far from representing one's constituents.

 

An election will certainly be all about Brexit There are various possible options, varying from pulling the plug and b*gg*r*ng off within days of the election, leaving with the deal currently on offer, a wide variety of negotiating stances and simply revoking Article 50 and remaining as the status quo - if that is possible, which personally I doubt! There are 4 major parties in the UK: Conservative, Labour, SNP and Liberal, as well as many smaller ones. These options or combinations of them will be supported and debated and put forward as policy by various of them. The government which emerges from any election will at least have a mandate for its favoured stance(s). Of course the election will be all about Brexit, virtually nothing else of substance is being debated or considered at the moment, and just about every other policy which may be put forward is inevitably contingent upon what happens with Brexit.

 

A second referendum, if it is also to reflect all these options, will not produce a majority for anything. It will be open to different interpretations by all shades of opinion, from Mr Farage and his gang to The Liberal Democrats. It will not resolve anything.

[JAG]

3 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Alternatively, it’s a <deleted> deal that includes very real threats to workers rights, environmental protections and consumer rights, presented by a PM that nobody trusts and who is hiding the Government’s own impact assessment.

All of which can, should and would, be exhaustively debated in front of the people in a General Election, rather than being frustrated by plots hatched behind  if not around the Speakers chair.

 

The "collateral damage" to use a ghastly American circumvention, being caused by the current Parliamentary antics, combined with the evident determination to deny an election until the alliance of opposition and Tory rebels has got it's way (which now looks like taking rather a long time), or even until the electoral climate is more favourable to both parties (which will quite possibly be an even longer time), will be a devastating, perhaps fatal blow to public confidence in our constitutional settlement.

Edited October 23, 2019 by JAG

[Sujo]

6 hours ago, JonnyF said:

History will be extremely kind to him if he holds a general election and then takes us out with a clean break due to a huge majority.

 

Whats stopping him from having a clean break at the end of the month. Didnt he say UK is out deal or no deal?

Just leave.

[Monomial]

7 hours ago, phantomfiddler said:

Dictatorship by parliament, not Boris, but democracy has gone out of the window thanks to these jumped up children who are not heeding the wishes of the people who put them in power ????

 

That would actually be an oligarchy, not a dictatorship.  If we are going to jump to hyperbole, let's at least get the lexicon correct. It is quite clear right now that UK parliament is in a state of extreme dysfunction, and the typical rules of fair play, namely calling an election to let the people sort out this mess, have been discarded. The requirement for impartiality of the speaker in particular has been devastated, and many people no longer trust even the courts to remain unbiased. These antics are going to have consequences far beyond just brexit, and it is now very unlikely that the British style of democracy will ever go back to what it was. It remains to be seen what it will develop into, but I can imagine history will remember this parliament as a textbook example of something to be avoided.

 

That said, name calling doesn't help. It is clearly in vogue on this forum by both sides, but it doesn't help. The UK is still a democracy, even if incredibly dysfunctional at the moment. Remember that when this current issue resolves itself, the people you are currently denigrating are going to be your neighbours. It would be best to look for shared values in order to form a canon for moving forward, rather than just intensifying the acrimony.

 

This has been a brief interlude. Both sides can now go back to biting and flinging their feces.

[dunroaming]

The second reading has gone through with a majority of MPs voting for it.  A clear majority so they are not trying to stop the deal passing.  They are in favour of this Brexit deal in principle but want the opportunity to put in amendments.  Boris cannot be trusted, as has been shown over and over again.  Therefore time is needed to scrutinise the deal.  Why is that a problem?  What are the government scared of?

[kingdong]

4 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Alternatively, it’s a <deleted> deal that includes very real threats to workers rights, environmental protections and consumer rights, presented by a PM that nobody trusts and who is hiding the Government’s own impact assessment.

 

 

The wonder is so few MP’s rejected Johnson’s 

”Trust me gov, no need to lift The bonnet” deal.

What "workers rights" ? Don,t you mean employees rights?i.e the right to get round minimum wage by making your employees " self employed."don,t call us,we,'ll call you----the zero hour contract.all made available by the glut of gig economy Labour courtesy of the freedom of movement.no wonder the leave vote came from predominantly working class areas.So away with your mock concerns about the rights of workers.

Edited October 23, 2019 by kingdong