Broken mains cable right of way

[andbod]

Greetings,

our company (a wellness center open to the public) is facing a problem due to a broken mains cable running from the transformer to the electrical panel (3 phase).

The cable is running mostly underground and is passing by a property we only partially rent (a condominium parking lot).

We asked the condominium committee the authorization to make an urgent maintenance work (break the concrete where the cable is running to replace the cable) since we are out of power but they are not answering.

We should have the right of way since the cable is already running in the exact same place where the work is needed but no written documents confirming it.

What can we do? Given the urgency can we start the work without a previous written authorization granted that we will preserve the parking operations and the area restoration?

[impulse]

Is your problem upstream or downstream of your power meter?  If it's upstream, I doubt you're even allowed to work on the PEA's section of line. 

 

They should be your first phone call in either case.  They'll know how to handle it legally, even if it's on your side of the meter.

 

[andbod]

It is downstream.

 

PEA already checked and said that it is up to us to replace the cable, no advice given on how to proceed from the legal point of view

[Yellowtail]

Aer you sure it needs to be dug up? If it's in a decent conduit you might just be able to pull it out and in. 

 

If that doesn't work I'd just start digging were I out of power and go no response from the neighbor.

[RichCor]

You should get someone to check the continuity of the buried cables first to see if the issue is there. If you get an 'actual' electrician with proper test gear they can tell you exactly where the break is (distance).

 

As others have said, the 3-phase mains are probably NOT direct buried but are in conduit. So once you know the issue is there you can dig holes on either side of the neighbor property and evaluate the conduit run and cables to see if it's salvageable, or if you need to negotiate access to re-lay new.

 

If 3 of the 4 phase + Neutral lines are working and you can safely do so you could just temporarily switch to single phase or dual phase service for now until you get a plan together.  

[Yellowtail]

And assuming you're replacing all the wire anyway, you can always run it above ground until you get the digging done.

 

Be sure to run block it such that it does not get damaged getting run over...

[bodga]

4 hours ago, andbod said:

We asked the condominium committee the authorization to make an urgent maintenance work (break the concrete where the cable is running to replace the cable) since we are out of power but they are not answering.

Go ahead and break it, all they can do is  tell you to stop, I've found them generally useless /spineless/ busybodies, when it suits them, usually because they are too bone idle looking at their  phones.

[Jan Dietz]

With RichCor on this, a decent cable checker can tell you to the centimetre how far away the problem is (short or open)

And if it has to be replaced and is in a conduit, got with Yellowtail's suggestion, no need to open up anything, just pull a fresh one using the old one, might need a little 'persuasion'

 

Here are some samples of the test equipment you're looking for:

https://megger.com/products/cable-fault-test-and-diagnostics/cable-fault-locating-equipment/time-domain-reflectometers

Edited June 1, 2020 by Jan Dietz

[andbod]

Thanks everyone! A lot of useful information.

One last question: do you know someone in Phuket that has the required equipment to check where the cable is broken or does PEA offer that kind of service?

 

[bankruatsteve]

I doubt PEA will want to do it even if they have the tech.  Can you just pull it out?

Edit:  How do you know it's broken?  Check for loose connections.  Only 1 phase down or all?

Edited June 2, 2020 by bankruatsteve

[RichCor]

44 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

How do you know it's broken?  Check for loose connections.  Only 1 phase down or all?

Excellent question. It's odd that all 3 phases would be down, unless the building is utilizing them as 3 single-phase and the Neutral is down.

 

I'm assuming the OP has had an electrician in and they've verified working service at the meter, with no meter activity, and little or no working service at the building's CU Breaker Box? 

[alacrity]

e

2 hours ago, andbod said:

Thanks everyone! A lot of useful information.

One last question: do you know someone in Phuket that has the required equipment to check where the cable is broken or does PEA offer that kind of service?

 

Yes, PEA can for a fee. Nothing more than a Varley Loop Test, or approved equivalence.

Don't understand your perception that the Condominium is responsible for your cable routing. Seems there's some missing historical data.

[andbod]

14 hours ago, bankruatsteve said:

I doubt PEA will want to do it even if they have the tech.  Can you just pull it out?

Edit:  How do you know it's broken?  Check for loose connections.  Only 1 phase down or all?

Only 1 phase is working. We checked all the connections and and tried to pull the cable out but it is stuck somewhere.

 

[andbod]

13 hours ago, alacrity said:

e

Yes, PEA can for a fee. Nothing more than a Varley Loop Test, or approved equivalence.

Don't understand your perception that the Condominium is responsible for your cable routing. Seems there's some missing historical data.

We checked with the juristic person manager the title deeds and the cable is running under condominium common areas (a parking lot).

The juristic person manager is insisting that without committee approval we can’t do anything else the pulling out the cable and replace it but no drilling work whatsoever.

We checked with the previous company owners and they told us they had only a verbal agreement with the condominium for the right of way so no way to enforce it.

If PEA will not be able to find where the problem is or to pull out the cable we will most likely drill without permission and then pay for compensation as required by civil law since we have no other way

[Crossy]

A really stupid question before you start digging.

 

Have you verified that the dead phases are actually OK at the meter?

 

It wouldn't be the first time that meter connections have come adrift.

 

[Metropolitian]

You also can measure between the phases in the consumer unit. It should be around 380-400 volt.

If this is between all three phases but not between one of the phase and neutral, then the neutral link is broken/disconnected.

Check at the meter too.

[andbod]

6 hours ago, Crossy said:

A really stupid question before you start digging.

 

Have you verified that the dead phases are actually OK at the meter?

 

It wouldn't be the first time that meter connections have come adrift.

 

Yes we asked PEA to double check with our staff and the dead phases are ok at the meter

[RichCor]

45 minutes ago, andbod said:

Yes we asked PEA to double check with our staff and the dead phases are ok at the meter

That's an odd way to phrase that.

 

Are you working with a qualified electrician? What have they said, or recommended?

[Crossy]

Now is the time to go back to PEA and ask if they have a contractor who could replace the cable preferably without digging anything up.

 

Many PEA engineers moonlight jobs like this and they have the backing of PEA equipment.

 

Not buried, but the "private" contractors who installed our poles from street to house were wearing PEA uniforms, driving a PEA crane truck and the poles are marked "PEA". Cash payment of course

 

[thailand49]

Even in Thailand there should be something called an Easement for the Utility that gives them the right to dig up and do the replacement or repair as long as they finish and make it whole again.

[Crossy]

4 hours ago, thailand49 said:

Even in Thailand there should be something called an Easement for the Utility that gives them the right to dig up and do the replacement or repair as long as they finish and make it whole again.

 

The issue in this case is that it's not a utility owned cable, it's on the consumer side of the meter so it's the consumer's problem ????

 

There doesn't seem to be any proper paperwork in place ????

 

[blackcab]

13 hours ago, thailand49 said:

Even in Thailand there should be something called an Easement for the Utility that gives them the right to dig up and do the replacement or repair as long as they finish and make it whole again.

 

Section 1352 of the Civil and Commercial Code covers the Right to Access for Utility Purposes such as Water Pipes, Electric Wires, etc.

 

The owner of a piece of land is bound, subject to reasonable compensation being paid him, to allow the laying through his land of water-pipes, drainage pipes, electric wires or similar installations for use of the adjoining land if, without making use of his land they could not be laid or could be laid only at an excessive cost; but he may require that his interest be taken into consideration.

 

In exceptional cases where the installations are to be above ground, he may require that a reasonable proportion of his land, over which such installations are to be laid, shall be bought from him at a price which will cover the value of the land and compensation for any damage arising from sale.

 

Where circumstances are changed, he may require that the installations be removed to such different part of his land as may be suitable to his interests.

 

The cost of removal must be borne by the owner of the adjoining land. However, if the special circumstances of the case so require, the other land owner may be held liable for a reasonable proportion of the cost.

 

In reality it is a matter of how much compensation has to be paid to the condominium.