The logic of masking

[heybruce]

14 hours ago, canthai55 said:

Something I came up with - try to lighten the mood.

Sung to the melody of Hey Joe - Thanks Jimi

 

Hey Schmo - where you going with that Mask on your face

Hey Schmo - where you going with that Mask on your face

I'm going down to get myself Jabbed

'Cause I heard it was good from another man

I'm going down to get myself jabbed

'Cause I heard it was good from another man

 

Hey Schmo - I heard you Jabbed your Woman down, Jabbed her down in the ground

 

Hey Schmo - where you gonna run to now ?

Butchering a Jimi Hendrix classic is no substitute for facts and logic, but apparently it's all you have.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 5/1/2021 at 8:08 AM, heybruce said:

I point out the debunked nonsense of conspiracy theories on occasion in the hope that I might help a few people avoid the temptation of going down the alternative fact rabbit hole. 

 

It's the same reason I point out the foolishness of fearing a possible one in a million chance of a fatal blood clot with some vaccines while ignoring the risk of dying of Covid 19, a risk which is thousands of times greater.

Hmmmmm The possiblity of every single one of us dying is 100%.

 

Perhaps some consider the risk of getting something bad from the vaccine outweighs the chance of having a serious effect after catching corona. Most that catch it do not have to go to hospital, and apparently many have no symptoms at all.

[heybruce]

14 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Hmmmmm The possiblity of every single one of us dying is 100%.

 

Perhaps some consider the risk of getting something bad from the vaccine outweighs the chance of having a serious effect after catching corona. Most that catch it do not have to go to hospital, and apparently many have no symptoms at all.

Most of us want to put off dying as long as possible.  Those in a hurry to die should find a method that does not endanger others.

 

As I explained earlier, the numbers show that you are more than a thousand times as likely to die of Covid if unvaccinated than die of complications from one of the approved vaccines.  Compare the number of people hospitalized due to Covid to the number hospitalized due to vaccines.

Edited May 3, 2021 by heybruce

[canthai55]

[BritManToo]

5 hours ago, heybruce said:

Most of us want to put off dying as long as possible.  Those in a hurry to die should find a method that does not endanger others.

Some people's fear of death is worse that the actual dying.

Cowards die many times before their deaths; The valiant never taste of death but once.

[canthai55]

“To fear death, gentlemen, is no other than to think oneself wise when one is not, to think one knows what one does not know. No one knows whether death may not be the greatest of all blessings for a man, yet men fear it as if they knew that it is the greatest of evils.”

[Joinaman]

On 7/1/2020 at 7:02 PM, Lacessit said:

Ah, another medical expert. TV seems to be replete with them.

You're in an operating theatre, the surgeon is about to cut you open. You won't mind if all the theatre staff discard their masks because they are a nuisance, will you?

ahh, another one

So the surgeons operating in the hospitals wear the same cheap masks that the majority if people in Thailand wear ?

I think not .

Do they wear it under their noses like a lot of Thais do ?

 

[thaibeachlovers]

11 hours ago, heybruce said:

Most of us want to put off dying as long as possible.  Those in a hurry to die should find a method that does not endanger others.

 

As I explained earlier, the numbers show that you are more than a thousand times as likely to die of Covid if unvaccinated than die of complications from one of the approved vaccines.  Compare the number of people hospitalized due to Covid to the number hospitalized due to vaccines.

You missed the point I was making entirely.

 

Out of the world population of nearly 8 billion how many have become infected, and out of them, how many went to hospital, and out of them how many died?

You have failed to convince me of your claims.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, Joinaman said:

ahh, another one

So the surgeons operating in the hospitals wear the same cheap masks that the majority if people in Thailand wear ?

I think not .

Do they wear it under their noses like a lot of Thais do ?

 

I think I can shed some light on that given I worked in operating theaters for 10 years.

The masks we used were apparently effective for about 10 minutes, and I was advised that once they became saturated by our breath they no longer protected as one might think they do. For that reason we were supposed to change them every operation. The main reason we used them, to my knowledge was to stop us breathing/ coughing into the wound.

Some surgeons did not cover their noses while operating, but only over their mouths to stop bacteria from their mouths entering the wound while they were speaking.

Given that they did not seal at the sides, they only stopped bacteria from going out directly in front from us. The main means of surgical protection was the negative pressure filtration system which constantly removed the air from the room and replaced it with filtered air. Masks are just not very good at protecting.

 

Surgeons that do operations requiring proper protection use special headgear that uses a filter, not a mask.

[canthai55]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You missed the point I was making entirely.

 

Out of the world population of nearly 8 billion how many have become infected, and out of them, how many went to hospital, and out of them how many died?

You have failed to convince me of your claims.

Cases

153M - 1.9%

 

Recovered 89.6M -  1.12%

Deaths 3.2M - 0.04%   Hospitals admissions unknown   PS - Heart Disease deaths - 16% of total deaths

[thasoss]

On 5/3/2021 at 10:02 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

rhaps some consider the risk of getting something bad from the vaccine outweighs the chance of having a serious effect after catching corona. Most that catch it do not have to go to hospital, and apparently many have no symptoms at all.

to get a vaccine or to not: at the end of the day it's a personal choice.The chances of a bad reaction are small,yet no one knows the long term ramifications.My first thoughts are i'd rather rely on my healthy immune system to combat the infection.

I know second hand of a doctor and his wife who tested positive for covid after his wife showed symptoms,fever and a cough.The doctor showed no symptoms,but both tested positive.He decided,as a doctor in the know I would guess, to administer azythromycin together with doxycycline.Big doses to begin with but as his wife's symptoms subsided the doses were reduced.After 10 days they reported back for another covid test and both came back negative.

[thaibeachlovers]

31 minutes ago, canthai55 said:

Cases

153M - 1.9%

 

Recovered 89.6M -  1.12%

Deaths 3.2M - 0.04%   Hospitals admissions unknown   PS - Heart Disease deaths - 16% of total deaths

Thanks for that. The stats prove my point better than I ever could, but I doubt reality will make much of an impression among some.

I doubt any would say pilots are stupid, but the below article is interesting.

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/124824116/many-nz-pilots-not-taking-up-covid19-vaccination-union-says

Many New Zealand pilots are turning down the opportunity to be vaccinated against Covid-19, and are instead taking a “wait and see” approach to the vaccine rollout, a union representing them says.

 

“There is many members that have indicated that they are not “anti-vax” but are prepared to wait and see how the vaccine rollout looks,” Ridling said.

[canthai55]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

“There is many members that have indicated that they are not “anti-vax” but are prepared to wait and see how the vaccine rollout looks,” Ridling said.

This is a concern. No vaccine I have been able to find have passed any sort of clinical trial.

Just pass some Emergency Measures to ensure that they can market them.

Most people base their decision on Fear - not Fact

[thaibeachlovers]

Just now, canthai55 said:

This is a concern. No vaccine I have been able to find have passed any sort of clinical trial.

Just pass some Emergency Measures to ensure that they can market them.

Most people base their decision on Fear - not Fact

Warning bell for me was finding out that apparently the companies that make them are immune from prosecution. If they are so safe the people that make them should be prepared to take responsibility for their safety.

 

There is indeed a great deal of fear about. I hate to think of the damage it's doing to young minds.

[BritManToo]

4 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Warning bell for me was finding out that apparently the companies that make them are immune from prosecution. If they are so safe the people that make them should be prepared to take responsibility for their safety.

 

There is indeed a great deal of fear about. I hate to think of the damage it's doing to young minds.

Being one of the 'walking dead', I'm surprised at the levels of fear among all the other old codgers.

With all their aches, pains and illness, I'd have thought more would be looking forward to death.

[thaibeachlovers]

5 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Being one of the 'walking dead', I'm surprised at the levels of fear among all the other old codgers.

With all their aches, pains and illness, I'd have thought more would be looking forward to death.

True. When my time comes I'll be welcoming it as the way to the real adventure to come. I just hope it doesn't hurt too much.

When they say that our life expectancy is 3 score and 10 they were not wrong. Having to put up with all the <deleted> that comes with just wearing out is not enjoyable in the slightest.

 

I'd have thought more would be looking forward to death.

Perhaps they were bad and think they'll be going to the hot place.

Edited May 4, 2021 by thaibeachlovers

[thasoss]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Warning bell for me was finding out that apparently the companies that make them are immune from prosecution. If they are so safe the people that make them should be prepared to take responsibility for their safety.

all you need to know......rushed out without time to test,of course they need immunity from prosecution,which brings  usto a decision "to vaccinate or not"

[heybruce]

17 hours ago, canthai55 said:

Do you understand the difference between science and marketing?

 

If not, that would explain a lot.

[heybruce]

17 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Some people's fear of death is worse that the actual dying.

Cowards die many times before their deaths; The valiant never taste of death but once.

 

15 hours ago, canthai55 said:

“To fear death, gentlemen, is no other than to think oneself wise when one is not, to think one knows what one does not know. No one knows whether death may not be the greatest of all blessings for a man, yet men fear it as if they knew that it is the greatest of evils.”

Do either of you have a point pertinent to this topic?  Are you arguing that death is preferable to masking?

[heybruce]

12 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You missed the point I was making entirely.

 

Out of the world population of nearly 8 billion how many have become infected, and out of them, how many went to hospital, and out of them how many died?

You have failed to convince me of your claims.

There are no credible statistics for the world population regarding Covid 19.  I use statistics from large countries such as the US in which Covid 19 has established a foothold. 

 

The US totals are:

 

Cases:  32 million

Deaths:  574,000 (1.8% of cases, 0.17% of total US population).   https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#datatracker-home

Hospitalizations:  5.7 million (https://covidusa.net/

 

Regarding vaccinations:

 

"Over 245 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through May 03, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 4,178 reports of death (0.0017%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine."   https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

 

Note that a disproportionate number of those receiving vaccines are senior citizens, who tend to have a higher than average mortality. 

 

Even in the ludicrous worst case assumption that everyone of those who died after vaccination having died from vaccination, it still shows vaccination to be 100 times safer than living in a country with Covid and 1000 times safer than catching Covid.

[heybruce]

11 hours ago, canthai55 said:

Cases

153M - 1.9%

 

Recovered 89.6M -  1.12%

Deaths 3.2M - 0.04%   Hospitals admissions unknown   PS - Heart Disease deaths - 16% of total deaths

Total cases and deaths globally are unknown.  Even using your numbers, the death rate of those infected is over 2%.

[heybruce]

11 hours ago, thasoss said:

to get a vaccine or to not: at the end of the day it's a personal choice.The chances of a bad reaction are small,yet no one knows the long term ramifications.My first thoughts are i'd rather rely on my healthy immune system to combat the infection.

I know second hand of a doctor and his wife who tested positive for covid after his wife showed symptoms,fever and a cough.The doctor showed no symptoms,but both tested positive.He decided,as a doctor in the know I would guess, to administer azythromycin together with doxycycline.Big doses to begin with but as his wife's symptoms subsided the doses were reduced.After 10 days they reported back for another covid test and both came back negative.

"The chances of a bad reaction are small,yet no one knows the long term ramifications."

 

The same is true for catching Covid 19, the life-long consequences of long Covid are unknown.  However the death rate from Covid is known to be much greater than that for vaccinations.

[heybruce]

10 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Thanks for that. The stats prove my point better than I ever could, but I doubt reality will make much of an impression among some.

I doubt any would say pilots are stupid, but the below article is interesting.

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/124824116/many-nz-pilots-not-taking-up-covid19-vaccination-union-says

Many New Zealand pilots are turning down the opportunity to be vaccinated against Covid-19, and are instead taking a “wait and see” approach to the vaccine rollout, a union representing them says.

 

“There is many members that have indicated that they are not “anti-vax” but are prepared to wait and see how the vaccine rollout looks,” Ridling said.

As already stated, the global stats are unknown.

 

You rely heavily on statistics and stories from New Zealand, a remote island nation that is one of the few to have kept Covid 19 under control.

[heybruce]

9 hours ago, canthai55 said:

This is a concern. No vaccine I have been able to find have passed any sort of clinical trial.

Just pass some Emergency Measures to ensure that they can market them.

Most people base their decision on Fear - not Fact

Absolutely, blatantly false.  Every vaccine approved for use in the west has passed a three phase clinical trials process.  https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/distributing/steps-ensure-safety.html

[heybruce]

6 hours ago, thasoss said:

all you need to know......rushed out without time to test,of course they need immunity from prosecution,which brings  usto a decision "to vaccinate or not"

Fake news is rampant here. 

 

As already noted, vaccines are tested and immunity from prosecution only extends to rare allergic reactions.  Tens of thousands of people are tested before approval of vaccines in an attempt to determine effectiveness and allergic reactions, but that is not enough to catch the one in a million allergic reactions.

[heybruce]

9 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Warning bell for me was finding out that apparently the companies that make them are immune from prosecution. If they are so safe the people that make them should be prepared to take responsibility for their safety.

 

There is indeed a great deal of fear about. I hate to think of the damage it's doing to young minds.

True for allergic reactions, and has been true for a long time. 

 

According to 42 U.S. Code § 300aa–22, "No vaccine manufacturer shall be liable in a civil action for damages arising from a vaccine-related injury or death associated with the administration of a vaccine after October 1, 1988, if the injury or death resulted from side effects that were unavoidable even though the vaccine was properly prepared and was accompanied by proper directions and warnings."   https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-are-pharmaceutical-companies-immune-covid-19-vaccine-lawsuits-1562793

 

It is also true for produces of eggs, peanuts, gluten, and other substances that may cause an allergic reaction.

[heybruce]

17 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Some people's fear of death is worse that the actual dying.

Cowards die many times before their deaths; The valiant never taste of death but once.

 

15 hours ago, canthai55 said:

“To fear death, gentlemen, is no other than to think oneself wise when one is not, to think one knows what one does not know. No one knows whether death may not be the greatest of all blessings for a man, yet men fear it as if they knew that it is the greatest of evils.”

Do either of you have a point pertinent to this topic?  Are you arguing that death is preferable to masking?

[covidiot]

16 hours ago, thasoss said:

After 10 days they reported back for another covid test and both came back negative.

I know an 89 year old who tested positive, then tested negative one week later without any treatment. 

 

And I am on the same wavelength regarding relying on the immune system, but the vaccines will become a political issue. People who don't get it may have some limitations. Maybe from employers, travel, ... here there was a request to re-open restaurants but only for vaccinated people. 

Edited May 4, 2021 by covidiot

[sirineou]

On 5/3/2021 at 10:02 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

Hmmmmm The possiblity of every single one of us dying is 100%.

 

Perhaps some consider the risk of getting something bad from the vaccine outweighs the chance of having a serious effect after catching corona. Most that catch it do not have to go to hospital, and apparently many have no symptoms at all.

Which is exactly why they don't have a problem in India. 

[canthai55]

6 hours ago, heybruce said:

Do you understand the difference between science and marketing?

By October 1945, DDT was available for public sale in the United States. Although it was promoted by government and industry for use as an agricultural and household pesticide, there were also concerns about its use from the beginning.[7]

Conis, Elena (2017). "Beyond Silent Spring: An Alternate History of DDT". Distillations. 2 (4): 16–23. Retrieved March 20, 2018.