Advice wanted for 4 new aircon units

[Mama Noodle]

12 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

It’s the start, stop cycle that does the damage.

Nah, if the thing is sized properly then the start stop “damage” is mitigated by being actually stopped for a period of time VS running all the time under a full load. 
 

And the only way to mitigate it further is an inverter. 

[oobar]

1 hour ago, thainet said:

And what is that...at this time there is R22 (old), R32 (new) and another used is 410???

Don't know.  All I know is that my service personnel informed me that all eight of my air conditioners, which I bought six years ago cannot be recharged after another five years.

[sometimewoodworker]

10 minutes ago, Mama Noodle said:

Nah, if the thing is sized properly then the start stop “damage” is mitigated by being actually stopped for a period of time VS running all the time under a full load. 
 

And the only way to mitigate it further is an inverter. 

It has nothing to do with sizing, it’s the inrush current that stresses the electrical/electronic components. 

[Mama Noodle]

13 minutes ago, oobar said:

Don't know.  All I know is that my service personnel informed me that all eight of my air conditioners, which I bought six years ago cannot be recharged after another five years.

Bet they sell or know people who sell air cons. 

[Mama Noodle]

3 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

It has nothing to do with sizing, it’s the inrush current that stresses the electrical/electronic components. 

So it’s better to have an aircon that doesn’t cycle? 
 

Because I’m not denying the stress of that, I even mentioned it earlier in the thread, but that stress is mitigated if the unit is properly sized. 
 

Having a motor/compressor run constantly in the heat has wear and tear issues as well, both these issues have to be mitigated, IE cycling. Only easily accessible way around it is an inverter. 

[thainet]

9 minutes ago, Mama Noodle said:

Don't know.  All I know is that my service personnel informed me that all eight of my air conditioners, which I bought six years ago cannot be recharged after another five years.

That will be R22, which is being phased out for R32 which is much more efficient and better cooling.  Older units will probably be on sale using R22, but better to buy newer types using R32 gas.

I believe all inverter type aircons use R32 (Daikin for sure, which I have 18 of).

[oobar]

26 minutes ago, Mama Noodle said:

40 minutes ago, oobar said:

Don't know.  All I know is that my service personnel informed me that all eight of my air conditioners, which I bought six years ago cannot be recharged after another five years.

Bet they sell or know people who sell air cons. 

You are correct.  They do indeed.

[fxe1200]

Don't know why nobody here recommends an aircon with a Hepafilter or a Nanoe G filter from Panasonic, which can eliminate 99% of viruses and bacteria in the air. The inverter is obligatory today, the filter is not!

 

[northsouthdevide]

11 hours ago, Mama Noodle said:

was against inverters for a long time but am completely sold on them now. 

Me too  100%

[n00dle]

13 hours ago, pineapple01 said:

My advice to clean sweepers is to evaluate you insulation first.. My biggest saving has been lowering the Ceilings to modern day height. Mitsu is my choise but i dont believe there much difference. Have 4 inverters but there again so much BS about the savings i never bring the subject up.

what pray tell is modern day height. every new home i have built or rented (including condo has had ceilings in the 2.8 to 3 meter range and i wouldnt live anywhere with less.

[SGD]

Many thanks for the quick and helpful responses.

 

I can perhaps add the following:

 

I have heat from aircons in the UK and Japan and where these are to be used, there is a need for heat a couple of months a year, so that option, if available at not a huge increased cost, would be nice.

 

The house is western built, cavity walls, decent insulation etc. Not a leaky Thai house.

 

Your thoughts on simple replacement are like mine as are trying to get 4 of the same or very similar from the same dealer.

 

I use refrigerant gases in industry (dry cleaning) and I know some have been phased out and gone mega expensive. I also know that you cannot always simply replace as different deals etc. are needed.

 

I did hear some points about quality and leaks. Something about some manufacturers using metal pipes / fittings etc. and others using plastic. The plastic ones were leaking, if my recollection is correct, but I cannot remember the full context.

 

These will be left for the outlaws to use until the family comes back 2 or 3 times a year to re-gas, service, etc. so the best "plug and play" is ideal.

 

Thanks again.

[Crossy]

9 hours ago, bankruatsteve said:

With respect, can you explain what that means? 

 

I'm sure you didn't mean the insult!! UK English "with respect" translates as "you are an idiot".

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/10280244/Translation-table-explaining-the-truth-behind-British-politeness-becomes-internet-hit.html

Or perhaps you did!

 

The poster in question said he saved 40% on his bill by replacing his OLD units with modern inverters. Hardly a like for like comparison.

 

How much saving is there between equivalent and correctly sized MODERN units conventional vs inverter? Not 40% I'm sure.

 

Inverters do have advantages (mostly for the manufacturer!) but one I've noticed is that they are much gentler on the supply (no start surge), our little 6kVA genset will just start and run the 12,000BTU conventional unit in our bedroom, it has no problem at all with the 23,000 BTU inverter unit in the lounge.

 

[Crossy]

9 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

I suspect a heat pump as I haven’t seen any heater bars on the inside of the unit.

 

Yes it is, from the specs https://www.hummingbird-ac.com/product/mitsubishi-mr-slim-msz-ln13vf-12900-btuh/ in heat mode it uses 0.9kW of power and generates 4kW of heat ????

 

[sezze]

5 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

Yes it is, from the specs https://www.hummingbird-ac.com/product/mitsubishi-mr-slim-msz-ln13vf-12900-btuh/ in heat mode it uses 0.9kW of power and generates 4kW of heat ????

 

That's a heat pump , heating power is always a bit higher then cooling capacity , since any pump adds energy to the system , that energy is heat . So reversing the cooling cycle gives you the same amount of heat , but adds the heat of the compressor .

Do not forget , all capacity is max rating , since the capacity/efficiency goes down as soon as the temp needed is growing larger .

[bankruatsteve]

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

How much saving is there between equivalent and correctly sized MODERN units conventional vs inverter? Not 40% I'm sure.

Not familiar with Brit double-talk.  I just didn't want to appear asking a stupid question as I still don't know what you mean by "MODERN conventional".  ????

[Crossy]

12 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

Not familiar with Brit double-talk.  I just didn't want to appear asking a stupid question as I still don't know what you mean by "MODERN conventional".  ????

 

Don't worry about the Brit talk, we do have some very, er, interesting, interpretations of our language ????

 

"Modern" - recently manufactured as opposed to a 20+ year old unit.

"Conventional" - non-inverter.

 

 

 

[bankruatsteve]

18 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Don't worry about the Brit talk, we do have some very, er, interesting, interpretations of our language ????

 

"Modern" - recently manufactured as opposed to a 20+ year old unit.

"Conventional" - non-inverter.

My brother likes to tell me "agree to disagree" - which means he thinks I'm full of s_h_i_t but will be kind enough to not point it out.

 

After a walk-thru of Home Hub and Home Pro earlier this year, I came to the conclusion that "conventional" now = "inverter".  Certainly not research, but with Daikin, Mitsu, and LG I did not see any (what I call) old style AC's in their parades.  I did see one or two in other brands (maybe Sharp) but predominantly "inverter" now.

[Crossy]

Yeah, non-inverter are definitely becoming less available now.

 

The reason, they are cheaper to manufacture. The somewhat improved energy efficiency is a bonus and means they can be sold at a premium too. Double profits!

 

[pineapple01]

This is why i / we never bring the topic up with friends. I see about 5 replies conducive with the OPs  question, the rest totaly pathetic. We all must know one with his first inverter. Sits at the Table, first Beer not realising side bets were taken on How Much I Saved. Then looks confused when 20% cause great mirth amongst us who also talked bs when they first came out. Was it nervous BS, from realising you never get the extra cost back then unless the rooms insulated to perfection . I tend to go for any make with a Fan that blows yer hat off being a  real expert.  Fun Post anyway.!

[sezze]

A inverter can ( and many times will ) use less power then a non-inverter . All depends on the use .... cool down the room and then shut it down , a conventional will use the same amount of power ( if same other construction/gas is used ) . Why ? because cooling down the room is xxx amount of energy , no matter what you do , you do need xxx amount of energy . So where does the saving come by ? Well , if the temp is reached , then the difference is appearing , a conventional shuts down using 0% while a inverter will keep on running . At this point the conventional actually is gaining on the inverter . Next what happens is that the room does heat up , not with the inverter , since the inverter was at its temperature and switched down to the amount needed to keep the room to that temp . Next what happens is the non inverter starts up again to 100% of the power , while the inverter was running at 20-30% of the power and still will be going like that . Now the inverter is getting better . The longer the AC stays on , the more it saves vs a non inverter model . Starting up a engine uses a lot more electric then keep it running , but at much lower power .

[grobec]

I agree with most of the above.

i have Mitsubishi GR super inverter series ( 6 units)

all separate as cheaper installation and also Best if one compressor ever goes down. Mitsubishi has heat pumps but as above they are expensive so local plug in heater advised where/when necessary.

 

the comment above about multiple same units is not a good idea.

if a unit is oversized for a room it will be cold and uncomfortable.

an ac has to run to remove moisture from the room otherwise you feel cold like in a fridge.

if you are near Udon I have a very good guy for the installation, annual service and guaranteed.

[pineapple01]

Star n Star Delta advice on its way. Plus Power Factor Corection and CVA meters, May i sugest the old DELTACAP 2000... Co r Blimey yer only chllin a room not the Honda Factory.????

[Crossy]

30 minutes ago, grobec said:

the comment above about multiple same units is not a good idea.

if a unit is oversized for a room it will be cold and uncomfortable.

an ac has to run to remove moisture from the room otherwise you feel cold like in a fridge.

if you are near Udon I have a very good guy for the installation, annual service and guaranteed.

 

Whilst your assertion is generally true, oversized units are not a good idea, our OP did state that all his units would be 9-12k, close enough that, particularly if inverter units, all would be well.

 

[maxpower]

Got to love these regular AC threads, its almost like the server is spitting one out each month. 

 

Thankfully the day will arrive when sellers stop dramatising inverter technology and start selling AC's again.

 

In the meantime we must live with laboratory generated sales figures and endure the ramblings of homeowners who after having several hundred dollars extracted from their wallets carry these figures onto the conversation table.

 

Unless you buy from a specialist, your new AC will likely have inverter drive. Take it home enjoy the cool room and get over it.

Edited July 7, 2020 by maxpower

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, grobec said:

if a unit is oversized for a room it will be cold and uncomfortable.

an ac has to run to remove moisture from the room

That is absolutely correct for non inverter AC units.
 

It is not as clear for inverters, since an inverter will reduce its cooling amount once the set temperature is achieved, but still Cool, and so still remove humidity.

 

So oversize a conventional AC by 50% (a normal Thai recommendation) and you get very poor humidity conditions. But put in the same oversized inverter and while the humidity may not be as good as with the correct sized unit it will be much better than with the non inverter.

 

2 hours ago, grobec said:

Mitsubishi has heat pumps but as above they are expensive so local plug in heater advised where/when necessary.

The Mitsubishi unit I have (a heat pump unit) has functions that make it far better than the GR models for our use, the heat function is the least important.
 

Both a 2CV and a Rolls-Royce will take you from A to B.

 

When our unit finally dies I will replace it with a similar one.

[BritManToo]

Would point out Haier have a 10% off voucher today only on Lazada flagship store.

Just purchased a 12,000btu inverter model COD for 9,200bht.

Local fitter says 2,500bht to fit.

 

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/haier-inverter-11568-btu-hsu-12vns03th-i896378003-s1806274853.html

Edited July 7, 2020 by BritManToo

[bankruatsteve]

44 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

3 hours ago, grobec said:

if a unit is oversized for a room it will be cold and uncomfortable.

an ac has to run to remove moisture from the room

That is absolutely correct for non inverter AC units.
 

It is not as clear for inverters, since an inverter will reduce its cooling amount once the set temperature is achieved, but still Cool, and so still remove humidity.

I really don't get the discussion of "oversizing" an inverter unit.  Except for the extra $$$, it is not likely that one could oversize.  If you look at the operation manual it has a chart (well, mine does) that shows BTU output range.  For mine, it is 2K BTU to 10somethingK BTU.  IE: they only use power required to hold temperature.  The only time my unit goes to max is if I select "Power Cool" - even on the hottest days.

[brianthainess]

On 7/6/2020 at 7:59 AM, Mama Noodle said:

Agree with the above, I dont think ive ever seen an aircon in Thailand with a heat function, much like all the cars they just dont have it. They might be around somewhere but I highly doubt it'll be worth it. 

 

If heat is a concern then getting space heaters for the times when really necessary, but they are electricity hogs.

 

IMO the best aircons are Mitsubishi Super Inverters, but pricy. 

my Nissan car has heat.

[brianthainess]

13 hours ago, fxe1200 said:

Don't know why nobody here recommends an aircon with a Hepafilter or a Nanoe G filter from Panasonic, which can eliminate 99% of viruses and bacteria in the air. The inverter is obligatory today, the filter is not!

 

I brought a bacteria filter from lazada made by 3M, simply cut to size and wrap over existing filter works fine.

[Mama Noodle]

Im convinced that most the people in this thread have lived their whole lives in a climate where air-conditing was almost unnecessary, having only discovered it when moving to Thailand and working out for themselves how to cool a room.

 

Then forming opinions on something they dont know anything about.