Electric Motorbike Any Opinions ?

[Daffy D]

The small branch of SCB at my local Tesco closed down  Still they were kind enough to leave one ATM which was nice so I don't have to go miles to the main branch to withdraw money    Except once a year for my Immigration letter 

 

Anyway the space left by the now gone SCB has been taken over by a showroom of electric bikes.

 

At first glance it looked like all they had was various forms of electric bikes and mobility scooters things. Today at the back I noticed they had a couple of what looked like proper bikes which at first I thought were your regular petrol bikes but looking closer they were in fact electric also. 

 

Seems reasonable I guess as it is an electric vehicle shop 

 

Anyways, our little shopping Fino must be nearly 15 years old, and though still going strong no harm in looking round for a replacement.

 

So anyone have have any experience with an electric bike they would like to share?

 

https://decogreenenergy.com/index.php/en/

Looks like a proper bike don'it 

 

 

[steve187]

i had one a while ago, the batteries are the let down, as is the lack of number plates, for the cost better to go for a petrol bike, true tried and tested

[Daffy D]

1 hour ago, steve187 said:

i had one a while ago, the batteries are the let down, as is the lack of number plates, for the cost better to go for a petrol bike, true tried and tested

What was the make of your bike?

 

Looking at the web page seems these are now able to be registered so can get a number plate.  

[Kwasaki]

IMHO What Steve 187 said. 

[Lacessit]

I understand the problem with electric cars and presumably electric bikes is the battery life of 8 - 10 years, and the replacement costs can be eye-watering.

 

[beddhist]

For around town electric is a no-brainer. If it's Chinese-made, however, then the question of reliability raises its ugly head. With next to no consumer protection here I would expect the warranty to expire as soon the bike leaves the premises.

 

Here is a review of two scooters in Thailand by a guy who drives EVs for a living:

 

One of them looks like the one you saw.

[Daffy D]

Interesting video, the black bike is the one I posted and seems to be top of their range, both bikes are from the same company. Does not seem to be Chinese.

 

From their Web Page:-  https://decogreenenergy.com/index.php/en/

"We are cooperating with LAIKE, Taiwanese manufacturer of electric motorcycle with 15 years of experience in electric motorcycles and ISO 9001: 2008 certificate. It has been ranked number 1 in Taiwan for 3 years (2014-2016). We are aiming on the production of parts in Thailand such as car frame, electric control box, charger, or even the development of batteries and solar cells to recharge and controls the production to meet the ISO quality."

 

The price of bikes is between 40K-50K.

 

There are some on Lazada cost about 20K but I don't think they are in the same class 

[tlandtday]

4 hours ago, beddhist said:

For around town electric is a no-brainer. If it's Chinese-made, however, then the question of reliability raises its ugly head. With next to no consumer protection here I would expect the warranty to expire as soon the bike leaves the premises.

 

Here is a review of two scooters in Thailand by a guy who drives EVs for a living:

 

One of them looks like the one you saw.

That's a converted zoomer and scoopy so basically honda with electric.

[impulse]

I had one that looked exactly like that in China.  It was a Flying Pigeon brand.  Don't laugh... At one time they were the #1 bicycle brand in China (which is saying a lot- millions of bikes a year), and their factory was 2 miles away from my home in Tianjin.

That said, there are hundreds of Chinese factories making E-Bikes that look pretty much the same.  It's a common design.  And, BTW, it's quite possible to be in the E-Bike business and not make a thing.  Buy the frame and fairings from one company, the wheels from another, the motor from another, the controls from another, and have it all painted and assembled by yet another...  You get the point.

 

Mine was 48V and had a 450 watt motor.  It was adequate for dedicated bike lanes, but nowhere near fast enough to take into regular traffic.  Which was fine, because bikes in Tianjin CBD weren't allowed in the main traffic lanes- not even gas bikes at that time.  I got about 20km on a charge when the batteries were new, and binned them when they got down to 10-15km per charge.  I rode it for about 4-5 years, with the batteries lasting almost 2 years.  Then I gave it to my GF's sister's family and they rode it another 4 years or so.

 

Nowadays, they're making 60V, 72V and even 96V E-scooters, so it's a different game.  I'd strongly suggest riding the bike, and not buying one from the interweb, unless you're looking for a bicycle alternative and NOT a scooter to take into traffic.  They may look zoomie like a gas scooter, but they're not even close when it comes to acceleration and top speed.

[impulse]

19 minutes ago, tlandtday said:

That's a converted zoomer and scoopy so basically honda with electric.

 

Not even close to the same performance...

 

[steve187]

11 hours ago, beddhist said:

For around town electric is a no-brainer. If it's Chinese-made, however, then the question of reliability raises its ugly head. With next to no consumer protection here I would expect the warranty to expire as soon the bike leaves the premises.

 

Here is a review of two scooters in Thailand by a guy who drives EVs for a living:

 

One of them looks like the one you saw.

52,000thb for the ace and 39,000thb for the sofia, 

 

new honda click 125cc from 51,000thb, to be competitive they would need both the bike and batteries to be cheaper, and the registration needs to be sorted.

[Elik]

I have also been looking for an electric bike for some time, and it seems to me that Deco Super Ace, or Deco Sylla seems to be the best option presently.

 

At 49-52 k they are the same cost as a Fino, but they only cost 300 thb/5000 km to drive, where fino will cost 2500. No frequent oil change, and most importantly, you wont be making a great big racket as you drive down the village road. Might even hear the birds.

 

Fino has an engine of 7-8 kW, where Deco only has 2 kW, but electric motors usually have better torque at lower rpm, which you use most of the time. Only a test drive can tell you how it feels, and thats how far i got. Cant seem to find anywhere to test or rent one?

 

 

There is also Toyotron that has a few 3 kW motor versions, but at 85k, and lead-acid battery, its not competitive.

https://www.electricbikesthailand.com/toyotron

 

We may just have to wait for Gogoro to come to Thailand.

The S3 has 7,6 kW motor and will leave any 125 cc behind. Also has fast battery swap, but cost is almost 100k

https://www.gogoro.com/smartscooter/s-performance/s3/

 

 

 

 

 

 

[canthai55]

17 minutes ago, Elik said:

cost is almost 100k

555

[eisfeld]

3 hours ago, canthai55 said:

555

I guess that's because Gogoro is not going for ultra low budget which shows in these other companies' fit'n'finish. All those cheap electric scooters that I have seen so far in Thailand had very questionable quality just by looking at them. Gogoro seems pretty decent. But at 100k they are not very competitive in Thailand. The second thing they need is proper marketing with test ride events to show people why they'd want them. Oh and of course the small thing called dealer network.

 

IMHO the government should give big incentives for battery production (and recycling) to happen in Thailand and support the transition to electric cars. Because that's the major cost of all e-vehicles and will be one of the key technologies in the mid term. The rest is easy. But I guess with the bank accounts heavily drained due to Covid we wont see that transition in the near term.

 

I think in the next 10 years we'll see battery tech come finally to a point where they can provide enough range, charging speed and price to replace combustion engines. There has been tremendous progress in the past decade and it's getting close.

 

But we're not there yet.

[Daffy D]

Thank you people, appreciate the input  

 

Our old Fino still has some miles left in her so ain't actually looking to buy just yet, just wanted to get a feel of the market.

 

As already mentioned technology is constantly improving. who knows where we will be with better cheaper batteries and possibly Government subsidies, but wouldn't hold my breath on that one 

 

[Skallywag]

Gorgoro from Taiwan is said to be the Tesla of electric scooters.  6.4KW 90 mile range.  2900 USD.  If and when I but I will buy electric, yet the furthest I go is the darkside and can easily get there on a my bicycle.  https://www.e-scooter.co/gogoro-2-series-plus/

[Elik]

One more thing to consider is the value of a fossil bike 10 years or even 5 years from now, given the rate of improvement on batteries, and the pollution issues in major cities.

In some cities in China there are zero fossil bikes. I don't know if they have been banned or taxed, but its not unreasonable to think Thailand will follow the example.

 

 

[impulse]

7 hours ago, Skallywag said:

Gorgoro from Taiwan is said to be the Tesla of electric scooters.  6.4KW 90 mile range.  2900 USD.  If and when I but I will buy electric, yet the furthest I go is the darkside and can easily get there on a my bicycle.  https://www.e-scooter.co/gogoro-2-series-plus/

 

These are some other guys to watch...  I have one of their low end Niu U-Sport e-scooters in China.  It's typical bicycle alternative (48V, 500 watt), and not a motorcycle substitute.  But their tech was amazing and the build quality was excellent.  Cost about $650 USD, but that was in China.  They get marked up mercilessly by overseas distribution networks.  (Edit:  For example, the M and N series cost around $1000-1200 in China, but closer to $3000 and up in the USA according to the video)

 

Me not speaking the language, we registered the warranty under my GF's name and number.  She could always figure out where I was by tuning into the app and looking up the scooter's location and speed.  And about once a quarter, she gets a phone call asking if everything is alright with the scooter because nobody's used it in a few months.   I'm stuck in the USA and she never uses it.

 

Now they're offering an e-cycle that goes 160 KPH....

 

 

 

[Damrongsak]

The Gogoro bikes are pretty slick.

[canthai55]

10 hours ago, eisfeld said:

But we're not there yet.

Agree - electric bikes, and cars, will never become viable without Gov't backing.

And the greater issue - where will all the electric power come from ?

Nuke is the only viable means to produce power without massive pollution.

Electric vehicles are net energy loss vehicles factoring in their cost of production, life span, and lack of facilities to recycle components i.e. they use more energy to build and operate than they save in doing so.

That being said - 100% torque off idle must be a blast !

[baansgr]

Don't see many C5s about...40 years and not a lots improved.

[guzzi850m2]

Interesting.

 

Yes not quite there yet with battery technology but we will get there soon I think.

 

I just been in Denmark for a month and was out in my friends Tesla (him driving). Boy oh boy it's fast, over 500hp & 4w/d, I am pretty sure it's accelerating faster than my Yamaha XSR900. He told me that the batteries should last app 7 years (Danish climate) and he don't fully charge it over night and can set it up on the dashboard screen how he wants it charged. Denmark have charging stations at almost all public parking spaces, so you can charge your car when shopping/eating lunch-dinner. 

 

I am not quite ready buying an electric vehicle in Thailand yet for a few reasons:

 

I don't want a Chinese made vehicle period, okay the scooters in the video was from Taiwan but if I was to get an electric scooter I want one from one of the big 4 (Honda-Yamaha-Kawasaki-Suzuki) made in Thailand, aimed at the local market.

 

Batteries don't last so long in tropical climates, in my experience they last app 3 years (truck-bike-scooters) here. Okay I don't know if those electrical scooters have some fancy (and expensive) batteries that last longer?

 

I haven't seen any charging stations in Thailand yet but I read somewhere that they will start soon putting them up, for cars? it's not so important for a little scooter popping around on.

 

We just can't continue with combustion engines, too many people around & one person driving to work in his pick-up truck alone is not exactly energy efficient when it can carry 4 persons.  

Okay battery manufacturing are using a lot of energy and charging a battery obviously need power from somewhere, that why it's important that governments must try to made as green energy as possible. Nuclear-wind-solar and whatever is suitable.  

[eisfeld]

31 minutes ago, canthai55 said:

Agree - electric bikes, and cars, will never become viable without Gov't backing.

And the greater issue - where will all the electric power come from ?

Nuke is the only viable means to produce power without massive pollution.

Electric vehicles are net energy loss vehicles factoring in their cost of production, life span, and lack of facilities to recycle components i.e. they use more energy to build and operate than they save in doing so.

That being said - 100% torque off idle must be a blast !

I think energy supply is not an issue, there's plenty available if the will was there. Solar alone in Thailand could probably produce enough for the whole country. A solar farm of a few rai can power hundreds if not thousands of homes. Also storage is not an issue if the will was there.

 

Nuclear (fission) energy is not without pollution, the radioactive waste that has to be stored and secured thousands of years is a serious issue and factoring in that cost most nuclear reactors would probably not be commercially viable. Fusion hopefully can change that but that'll take a decade or two more. ITER is currently under construction.

 

One day we'll figure out how to properly extract all the energy that's in stuff. The atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima released the energy that is in 0.7 grams of potatoes (I'm serious, mind blown by Mr. Einstein).

 

 

Of course a car is net negative in terms of energy. They do not save energy they save emissions. And according to this [0] EU report which is already 9 years old and battery tech has advanced a lot since then, total emissions are (unexpectedly) lower for EV than ICE. BTW the energy needed to produce the batteries is specified as just 25-50kWh per kg. That's a tiny amount compared to the lifetime energy consumption and surely quite a bit lower by now.

 

That EVs cost a lot more energy to produce, that they are more dirty etc than combustion engines is a myth as far as I can tell.

 

There were so many of these myths (they cost more energy to produce, they produce more emissions due to production, we don't have enough raw materials, we don't have enough energy to power them) that by now I wouldn't discredit anyone as a conspiracy theorist who thought that there must be interest groups that actively try to push mis-information (I don't mean you, you also just heard/read that somewhere). My mother told me the same (as she heard it in the news) until I confronted her with the data.

 

That all being said, yes max torque from idle => big big grin ???? The acceleration is stupidly fun.

 

[0] https://ec.europa.eu/clima/sites/clima/files/transport/vehicles/docs/d2_en.pdf

[eisfeld]

42 minutes ago, guzzi850m2 said:

Batteries don't last so long in tropical climates, in my experience they last app 3 years (truck-bike-scooters) here. Okay I don't know if those electrical scooters have some fancy (and expensive) batteries that last longer?

 

I haven't seen any charging stations in Thailand yet but I read somewhere that they will start soon putting them up, for cars? it's not so important for a little scooter popping around on.

The batteries that don't last long are the old Lead Acid style. They are really annoying here. I just have a dead one again! Maybe I'll replace it with a LiFePO4 hmmm.

 

The EVs use Lithium Ion (Li-Ion) batteries that are pretty much what you find in your smartphone or laptop. They last much much longer in my experience. They are still improving at a fast rate and the next step in solid state batteries is advancing as well. Honda gave me 10 years warranty on the batteries.

 

There are a few hundred EV charging stations now in Thailand. We need much much more but something is being done at least.

 

 

[canthai55]

As said above - Li-ion batteries are one solution, but recycling remains a no show.

Everyone concentrates on improved batteries, but almost no one works on what to do with all the toxic S--T that is leftover.

Not to mention the safety aspects - fires and explosions - associated with them.

https://cen.acs.org/materials/energy-storage/time-serious-recycling-lithium/97/i28

[eisfeld]

18 minutes ago, canthai55 said:

As said above - Li-ion batteries are one solution, but recycling remains a no show.

Everyone concentrates on improved batteries, but almost no one works on what to do with all the toxic S--T that is leftover.

Not to mention the safety aspects - fires and explosions - associated with them.

https://cen.acs.org/materials/energy-storage/time-serious-recycling-lithium/97/i28

The safety risks are real but solutions exist already. Titanite batteries like in my car are deemed so safe by Honda that they dared to put them under the rear seats without any full barrier. The compartment is open so air from the passenger compartment for cooling can cycle. I think if manufactured right they can be just as safe as combustion engines which have a fire risk as well. I haven't looked up the ratio of EV to ICE fires though. But on a motorcycle you are much more exposed and close to the battery. But then again the ICE of a friends F800GS exploded under his bum while going over 100kph.

 

Recycling is just starting because you need old batteries first. There are a good bunch of companies that can pretty much bring batteries back to life. The former Tesla CTO started a Li-Ion recycling company [0] ????

 

So yea there are real problems to tackle as you rightfully mentioned but there's tons of smart people working on them with many billions in funding. I'm very confident those issues can be solved in not too many years.

 

Re motorcycles: I think it's definitely too early and I'd be especially cautious with the budget versions for now.

 

[0] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/amazon-invests-former-tesla-ctos-193902212.html

[beddhist]

10 hours ago, canthai55 said:

Agree - electric bikes, and cars, will never become viable without Gov't backing.

And the greater issue - where will all the electric power come from ?

You need to add "in Thailand in the next 2 years". In Europe, many countries have already announced bans on the sale of new ICE-powered vehicles within the next 5-10 years. Buying a new car has never made economic sense for most people, but if you buy one now with the intention of upgrading it again in a few years time you will learn the meaning of the term "stranded asset". That will apply in Thailand, too, because most manufacturers will have to switch to EVs for the global market.

 

Germany has just passed a law requiring ALL petrol stations to install EV chargers.

 

In the EU in most cases the total cost of ownership for an EV is now on par with ICEs, depending on subsidies. The picture is distorted here in Thailand by the govt, that pays lip service to the energy revolution, but continues to tax imported EVs at up to 80% - unless made in China.

 

If you own your own home, chances are you can generate all your power from your own roof. It's easy and not too expensive: I have installed a 4.5 kW system myself on a shipping container and if PEA would let me backfeed we would have a net zero power bill at the end of every year, or pretty close to it. This includes running AC, el. stove and oven, fridge/freezer and deep freeze. We still have plenty of roof space and panels are getting cheaper all the time. As soon as an affordable EV comes along I intend to buy it, even if it means having to buy Chinese-made. More solar panels and a home charger will follow, although with the little driving we do we could probably get away with slow charging only.

 

For anybody with even a passing interest I recommend the Youtube channel "Fully Charged Show".

[bunnydrops]

https://luxe.digital/lifestyle/cars/best-electric-motorcycles/

check out number 4

[Elik]

Found a dealer; EV rider in Nonthaburi, where i could test the Deco Super Ace and Sylla. I was expecting sluggish behavior but they have plenty of power for keeping up with the cars. 0-60 in 6 seconds, where the Fino is 7 seconds. 
I’m actually confused by that, because if you divide the kinetic energy at that speed with the motors power it should be 12,5 seconds.

 

Anyway Sylla is taller and has a more comfortable seat, but I bought a super ace. Both feet flat on the ground seems more important for the short trips we will use it for.

 

I’ll get back if I get problems

[cjinchiangrai]

I have had two over the last six years in China. They were each about 15000 baht new. They work great for one rider over limited distances on flat ground. They would be great in Hua Hin or Pattaya. They only do about 30 km on a charge and do not climb hills. They will get up to about 60kmh but nowhere fast enough for open road traffic, strictly in town.

More batteries helps, my 72v has a lot more kick than the original 60v.

 

For the prices I have seen listed in this thread, I would be getting a 125i Click in LOS.

 

I am looking at a PCX for Chiang Rai.