How do I stop myself from drinking too much?

[DDBKK]

10 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Are you seriously saying that alcoholics are lacking self-control?

Why, what would you say they are lacking?

[impulse]

4 hours ago, DDBKK said:

15 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Are you seriously saying that alcoholics are lacking self-control?

Why, what would you say they are lacking?

 

You know how some people can eat peanuts and not....die.  While others need an epi pen and a trip to the emergency room if they so much as sniff peanut dust?  Different people react differently to peanuts.  It has nothing to do with willpower or self control.

 

Same with alcohol.  It affect some people differently than others.  It has nothing to do with willpower or self control.  At least that's what the American Medical Association (AMA) says.

 

[DDBKK]

31 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

You know how some people can eat peanuts and not....die.  While others need an epi pen and a trip to the emergency room if they so much as sniff peanut dust?  Different people react differently to peanuts.  It has nothing to do with willpower or self control.

 

Same with alcohol.  It affect some people differently than others.  It has nothing to do with willpower or self control.  At least that's what the American Medical Association (AMA) says.

 

Did you just compare peanut allergies to someone who can't stop drinking once they start? 

 

You say it affects some different than others then profess it has nothing to do with willpower or self control. It's..... laughable to say..... the least. 

 

It's a disease, right? ???? 

 

Yanks, honestly....

[carlyai]

1 hour ago, DDBKK said:

Did you just compare peanut allergies to someone who can't stop drinking once they start? 

 

You say it affects some different than others then profess it has nothing to do with willpower or self control. It's..... laughable to say..... the least. 

 

It's a disease, right? ???? 

 

Yanks, honestly....

Well if you look at it from the Mindful way, I don't think it's self control, but more to accept the Urge thought  to drink and then practice distracting this urge thought and rewiring the brain.

I thing of self control as saying 'I will not drink, I will not drink, etc. which just reinforced your thoughts to drink.

I see it like when you really try hard to remember a person's name and it won't come, then you think about something else and the person's name comes. But, that's just me. ????

[EVENKEEL]

I go to the beach everyday with 3 small cans of beer. My limit for the day. It's my thing to do. For me drinking a beer walking in the surf is a true symbol of being free. In my younger days I only knew how to drink in excess. I recently retired and falling into the daily excessive drinking routine is one I've been careful to avoid. 

[Neeranam]

9 hours ago, DDBKK said:

Why, what would you say they are lacking?

They are lacking nothing; would you say someone with cancer is lacking anything? Both are diseases. Most heavy drinkers, who can stop, moderate, control their alcohol intake, will never really understand what alcoholism is. 

I find it rather pathetic  when they think they are somehow morally superior or have stronger will-power to real alcoholics.

[Neeranam]

5 hours ago, impulse said:

Same with alcohol.  It affect some people differently than others.  It has nothing to do with willpower or self control.  At least that's what the American Medical Association (AMA) says.

Absolutely, also The American Psychiatric Association, the American Hospital Association, the American Public Health Association, the National Association of Social Workers, the World Health Organization and the American College of Physicians have also classified alcoholism as a disease.

[owl sees all]

On 11/5/2020 at 12:47 PM, Cake Monster said:

Go to the Local Hardware Store and purchase a Large Bucket full of Self Discipline.

Self-discipline. Sadly lacking for some people. Here's how to go about it.

 

Set yourself a daily limit. Say you drink beer; then 10 bottles a day. Each month decreace the number by one. By the end of the year you will be free of the demon drink.

[carlyai]

9 hours ago, Neeranam said:

They are lacking nothing; would you say someone with cancer is lacking anything? Both are diseases. Most heavy drinkers, who can stop, moderate, control their alcohol intake, will never really understand what alcoholism is. 

I find it rather pathetic  when they think they are somehow morally superior or have stronger will-power to real alcoholics.

I think the new thinking is that alcoholism is not a disease. Have a read of 'The Biology of Desire'.

[adammike]

7 minutes ago, carlyai said:

I think the new thinking is that alcoholism is not a disease. Have a read of 'The Biology of Desire'.

Drinking may not be a disease but it causes liver disease,not to mention what it does to all the other organs and mind.

[Susco]

If alcoholism was a disease, then how would AA be beneficial? Are they doctors, do they give you medicine?

[soalbundy]

Well you've made the first step, realizing there is a problem. My brother refused to realize this even when he lost his job and his marriage was on the rocks due to drinking but after his third visit to the rehab the doctor said goodbye to him because either he will give up drinking or he will be dead. That shook him, 15 years later he still hasn't touched a drop, he has another good job and is back with his wife and kids. It's up to you, only you can do it, nobody else.

[tgw]

28 minutes ago, carlyai said:

I think the new thinking is that alcoholism is not a disease. Have a read of 'The Biology of Desire'.

 

19 minutes ago, adammike said:

Drinking may not be a disease but it causes liver disease,not to mention what it does to all the other organs and mind.

 

14 minutes ago, Susco said:

If alcoholism was a disease, then how would AA be beneficial? Are they doctors, do they give you medicine?

 

it matches the medical definition of disease, so it is a disease.

I too was sceptical, but it's the definition of disease.

"The term disease broadly refers to any condition that impairs the normal functioning of the body."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease

 

[soalbundy]

12 minutes ago, tgw said:

 

 

 

it matches the medical definition of disease, so it is a disease.

I too was sceptical, but it's the definition of disease.

"The term disease broadly refers to any condition that impairs the normal functioning of the body."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease

 

So chopping off your leg with an axe is a disease? I have read that a specific gene that we have inherited from Neanderthals is responsible for our addictions, in some of us it is either not present or turned off and in others it is on and blinking.

[tgw]

5 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

So chopping off your leg with an axe is a disease? I have read that a specific gene that we have inherited from Neanderthals is responsible for our addictions, in some of us it is either not present or turned off and in others it is on and blinking.

 

well, the definition goes on saying "and that is not due to any immediate external injury."

[Neeranam]

2 hours ago, carlyai said:

I think the new thinking is that alcoholism is not a disease. Have a read of 'The Biology of Desire'.

Managing Alcoholism as a Disease

By Thomas R. Hobbs, Ph.D., M.D.

Thomas R. Hobbs, Ph.D., M.D., is medical director of the Physicians’ Health Programs (PHP). The PHP, a program of The Educational and Scientific Trust of the Pennsylvania Medical Society, is a confidential advocacy service for physicians suffering from impairing conditions.

Published February 1998

The debate on whether alcoholism is a disease or a personal conduct problem has continued for over 200 years. In the United States, Benjamin Rush, MD, has been credited with first identifying alcoholism as a "disease" in 1784. He asserted that alcohol was the causal agent, loss of control over drinking behavior being the characteristic symptom, and total abstinence the only effective cure. His belief in this concept was so strong that he spearheaded a public education campaign in the United States to reduce public drunkenness.

The 1800s gave rise to the temperance movement in the United States. Alcohol was perceived as evil, the root cause of America’s problems. Accepting the disease concept of alcoholism, people believed that liquor could enslave a person against his or her will. Temperance proponents propagated the view that drinking was so dangerous that people should not even sample liquor or else they would likely embark on the path toward alcoholism. This ideology maintained that alcohol is inevitably dangerous and inexorably addictive for everyone. Today, we know that strong genetic influences exist, but not everyone becomes addicted to alcohol.

The temperance movement picked up steam in the late 1800s and evolved into a movement advocating the prohibition of alcohol nationally. Banning alcohol would preserve the family and eliminate sloth and moral dissolution in the United States, according to supporters. Backed by strong political forces, legislation was passed and prohibition went into effect in 1920. Paradoxically, the era of prohibition also marked the death of Victorian standards. According to A. Sinclair in his book, Prohibition: The Era of Excess, a code of liberated personal behavior grew and with it the idea that drinking should accompany a full life. Drunkenness represented personal freedom. Due to public outcry, prohibition was repealed in 1933.

Soon after prohibition ended, Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) was born. Formed in 1935 by stockbroker Bill Wilson and a physician, Robert Smith, AA supported the proposition that an alcoholic is unable to control his or her drinking and recovery is possible only with total abstinence and peer support. The chief innovation in the AA philosophy was that it proposed a biological explanation for alcoholism. Alcoholics constituted a special group who are unable to control their drinking from birth. Initially, AA described this as "an allergy to alcohol."

Although AA was instrumental in again emphasizing the "disease concept" of alcoholism, the defining work was done by Elvin Jellinek, M.D., of the Yale Center of Alcohol Studies. In his book, The Disease Concept of Alcoholism, published in 1960, Jellinek described alcoholics as individuals with tolerance, withdrawal symptoms, and either "loss of control" or "inability to abstain" from alcohol. He asserted that these individuals could not drink in moderation, and, with continued drinking, the disease was progressive and life-threatening. Jellinek also recognized that some features of the disease (e.g., inability to abstain and loss of control) were shaped by cultural factors.

During the past 35 years, numerous studies by behavioral and social scientists have supported Jellinek’s contentions about alcoholism as a disease. The American Medical Association endorsed the concept in 1957. The American Psychiatric Association, the American Hospital Association, the American Public Health Association, the National Association of Social Workers, the World Health Organization and the American College of Physicians have also classified alcoholism as a disease. In addition, the findings of investigators in the late 1970s led to explicit criteria for an "alcohol dependence syndrome" which are now listed in the DSM IIR, DSM IV, and the ICD manual. In a 1992 JAMA article, the Joint Committee of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence and the American Society of Addiction Medicine published this definition for alcoholism:"Alcoholism is a primary chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. The disease is often progressive and fatal. It is characterized by impaired control over drinking, preoccupation with the drug alcohol, use of alcohol despite adverse consequences, and distortions in thinking, mostly denial. Each of these symptoms may be continuous or periodic."

Despite the numerous studies validating the disease model of alcoholism, controversy still exists. In his 1989 book, Diseasing of America, social psychologist Stanton Peele, Ph.D., argues that AA and for-profit alcohol treatment centers promote the "myth" of alcoholism as a lifelong disease. He contends that the disease concept "excuses alcoholics for their past, present, and future irresponsibility" and points out that most people can overcome addiction on their own. He concludes that the only effective response to alcoholism and other addictions is "to recreate living communities that nurture the human capacity to lead constructive lives."

Surprisingly, Dr. Peele’s view that alcoholism is a personal conduct problem, rather than a disease, seems to be more prevalent among medical practitioners than among the public. A recent Gallop poll found that almost90 percent of Americans believe that alcoholism is a disease. In contrast, physicians’ views of alcoholism were reviewed at an August 1997 conference held by the International Doctors of Alcoholics Anonymous (IDAA). A survey of physicians reported at that conference found that 80 percent of responding doctors perceived alcoholism as simply bad behavior.

Dr. Raoul Walsh in an article published in the November 1995 issue of Lancet supports the contention that physicians have negative views about alcoholics. He cites empirical data showing physicians continue to have stereotypical attitudes about alcoholics and that non-psychiatrists tend to view alcohol problems as principally the concern of psychiatrists. He also contends that many doctors have negative attitudes towards patients with alcohol problems because the bulk of their clinical exposure is with late-stage alcohol dependence.

Based on my experiences working in the addiction field for the past 10 years, I believe many, if not most, health professionals still view alcohol addiction as a willpower or conduct problem and are resistant to look at it as a disease. Part of the problem is that medical schools provide little time to study alcoholism or addiction and post-graduate training usually deals only with the end result of addiction or alcohol/drug-related diseases. Several studies conducted in the late 1980s give evidence that medical students and practitioners have inadequate knowledge about alcohol and alcohol problems. Also, recent studies published in the Journal of Studies on Alcoholism indicate that physicians perform poorly in the detection, prevention and treatment of alcohol abuse.

The single most important step to overcoming these obstacles is education. Education must begin at the undergraduate level and continue throughout the training of most if not all specialties. This is especially true for those in primary care where most problems of alcoholism will first be seen. In recent years, promotion of alcohol education programs in medical schools and at the post graduate level has improved. In Pennsylvania, for example, several medical schools now offer at least one curriculum block on substance abuse. Medical specialty organizations, such as the American Society of Addiction Medicine, are focusing on increasing addiction training programs for residents, practicing physicians and students.

Also, an increasing number of hospitals have an addiction medicine specialist on staff who is available for student and resident teaching, as well as being available for in-house consultations.

The American Medical Association estimates that 25-40 percent of patients occupying general hospital beds are there for treatment of ailments that result from alcoholism. In the United States, the economic costs of alcohol abuse exceed $115 billion a year. Physicians in general practice, hospitals and specialty medicine have considerable potential to reduce the large burden of illness associated with alcohol abuse. For example, several randomized, controlled trials conducted in recent years demonstrate that brief interventions by physicians can significantly reduce the proportion of patients drinking at hazardous levels. But first, we as physicians must adjust our attitudes.

Alcoholism should not be judged as a problem of willpower, misconduct, or any other unscientific diagnosis. The problem must be accepted for what it is—a biopsychosocial disease with a strong genetic influence, obvious signs and symptoms, a natural progression and a fatal outcome if not treated. In the past 10 years, the medical profession’s and the public’s acceptance of smoking as an addictive disease has resulted in reducing nicotine use in the United States. I feel that similar strides can be made with alcohol abuse. We must begin, as we did with nicotine, by educating and convincing our own colleagues that alcoholism is a disease. We must also emphasize that physicians have played a significant role in reducing the mortality and morbidity from nicotine use through patient education. Through strong physician intervention, I believe that we can achieve similar results with alcohol abuse.

[StreetCowboy]

2 hours ago, Neeranam said:

 

...In the past 10 years, the medical profession’s and the public’s acceptance of smoking as an addictive disease has resulted in reducing nicotine use in the United States. I feel that similar strides can be made with alcohol abuse. We must begin, as we did with nicotine, by educating and convincing our own colleagues that alcoholism is a disease. We must also emphasize that physicians have played a significant role in reducing the mortality and morbidity from nicotine use through patient education. Through strong physician intervention, I believe that we can achieve similar results with alcohol abuse.

The public perception of nicotine consumption is primarily based on the risks of passive smoking, and no amount of passive smoking is deemed acceptable.  With respect to alcohol, the equivalent is the tightening of drink driving limits, from previous limits based on evidence of unacceptable increased risk of accident to limits based on evidence of acceptable risk of accident.

 

Punitive taxation does not prevent children from trying cigarettes, but punishes poor tobacco addicts for the gratification of those that do not smoke.  

 

Alcoholics Anonymous does a great job in putting the emphasis on the individual, and his commitment to abstain from alcohol, with the assistance of his peers and God to achieve that, if that is what the individual wishes. 

 

I don't know whether there are objective tests to determine or measure alcoholism other than behaviour, nor whether there are direct treatments available other than 'aversion therapy' drugs that affect your response to alcohol, rather than treating the disease itself.  

[impulse]

19 hours ago, DDBKK said:

Did you just compare peanut allergies to someone who can't stop drinking once they start? 

 

You say it affects some different than others then profess it has nothing to do with willpower or self control. It's..... laughable to say..... the least. 

 

It's a disease, right? ???? 

 

Yanks, honestly....

 

They've even identified the genes...

 

Abundant evidence indicates that alcoholism is a complex genetic disease, with variations in a large number of genes affecting risk. Some of these genes have been identified, including two genes of alcohol metabolism, ADH1B and ALDH2, that have the strongest known affects on risk for alcoholism. Studies are revealing other genes in which variants impact risk for alcoholism or related traits, including GABRA2, CHRM2, KCNJ6, and AUTS2. As larger samples are assembled and more variants analyzed, a much fuller picture of the many genes and pathways that impact risk will be discovered.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4056340/

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30852706/

 

Try using willpower to change your genetics.  Good luck with that.

 

[DDBKK]

It's interesting isn't it? The semantics. 

 

I find it quite dismissive if I'm honest. It's like you can't take responsibility for your own actions.

 

And where does the line stop (or start as the case may be)? Is someone who enjoys a binge drink in possession of the "disease"? Or do they simply lack self control? What about someone who's wife has died later in life, they've been stone cold sober or very moderate drinker most of their life until the wife passed away and then drank solidly to block out the pain until they too passed? What do we call that? 

 

The variables are vast when it comes to addictive substances I'm sure we can all agree. I've been an addict to a substance and I've abused others and been able to control the intake of them when I put my mind to it.  How does the "disease" gene fit into that picture exactly? 

 

If they have truly identified a <deleted> head gene. How do you even know you have it? And therefore the "disease"? You don't. (Unless you've been tested) You're simply using the excuse that you do have it to pass the buck to protect your ego because you have a weakness. Sorry. But the good news is, we all have weaknesses so don't worry about it. It's part of being human.

[carlyai]

18 hours ago, tgw said:

 

 

 

it matches the medical definition of disease, so it is a disease.

I too was sceptical, but it's the definition of disease.

"The term disease broadly refers to any condition that impairs the normal functioning of the body."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease

 

I haven't read that widely about this, but it seemed that if alcoholism was classified as a disease (of the brain, i think) then you could get funding for research etc. If it was just a learned experience, then funding would be harder to come by.

[swissman53]

In this book, free for everyone are true stories and much stuff about alcoholism. It did help me a lot to find my way for a new life....

https://www.aa.org/pages/en_us/alcoholics-anonymous

[saakura]

On 1/14/2021 at 1:39 PM, Neeranam said:

Good luck with staying on the wagon!

 

60 years is a ling time; I drank for only 20 years, however for the last 2/3 years, drank 2 large bottles of whisky and a few Chang per day. 

Is that a typo error or are you exaggerating? Can any human survive drinking "2 large bottles of whisky and a few Chang per day" for even a few days or weeks, leave alone 2/3 years?

[Neeranam]

2 hours ago, saakura said:

Is that a typo error or are you exaggerating? Can any human survive drinking "2 large bottles of whisky and a few Chang per day" for even a few days or weeks, leave alone 2/3 years?

To be honest, I can't really remember as I was taking a large quantity of prescription drugs as well.

Maybe exaggerating a bit; some days I had less but needed 1-200 mg of valium to get me through.

A normal day consisted of waking up with the shakes at 4 am ish, crawling to 7/11 to buy a couple of half bottles of Sang Thip and a chang or 2. I bought 2 halves as I thought it would help me drink less. I'd then drink one before getting back out of bed. Usually, a couple of chang in the morning and the second half by lunchtime, not that I ate much. Chang in the afternoon and another half bottle or 2 of Sang Thip in the evening.

It's good for me to remember how desperate I was. Over 2 decades now since that poison has passed my lips. 

 

[Pro1Expat]

On 11/5/2020 at 5:42 AM, denvemosc46 said:

20 year old male here. Every time I go out for a drink, my nights usually start out pretty good, with me being in a good mood, and with a lot of confidence. But as the night passes on, 3 things happens. I get really tired, sad and depressed sitting in the corner not saying a thing, and so drunk that I throw up everywhere and can't remember a thing next day. I know I could just ''drink less'', but I somehow can't make myself do that, when I have had a couple of drinks. Has any of you dealt with the same situation?

Try having a soft drink or just give up and you will feel a lot better for it.

[cdemundo]

On 11/4/2020 at 8:42 PM, denvemosc46 said:

20 year old male here. Every time I go out for a drink, my nights usually start out pretty good, with me being in a good mood, and with a lot of confidence. But as the night passes on, 3 things happens. I get really tired, sad and depressed sitting in the corner not saying a thing, and so drunk that I throw up everywhere and can't remember a thing next day. I know I could just ''drink less'', but I somehow can't make myself do that, when I have had a couple of drinks. Has any of you dealt with the same situation?

A joke with some truth.  A gravedigger takes note of the large number of mourners at a funeral.  He speaks to one of the mourners who remains after others have left.  The mourner says, "The deceased was my cousin, he was a young man and he basically drank himself to death." The gravedigger asks "Did he try AA?"  The mourner replies, obviously offended, "He wasn't that bad!!!".

[GrandPapillon]

On 11/5/2020 at 12:11 AM, Surelynot said:

Start buying lady drinks...you'll soon run out of money for your own beer.

good plan, the voice of experience I assume ????

[Surelynot]

10 hours ago, GrandPapillon said:

good plan, the voice of experience I assume ????

Sadly....yes.

 

I think my 'worst' case was, in effect, a 1000 Baht for one large bottle of Leo......

[carlyai]

The good news is that as it's very difficult to stop this habit, some readings have shown, that your brain gets better and stronger when you have stopped. Don't remember how long after. Seems the synapses regrow connections better and stronger than before. AND, many heavy drinkers don't end up with liver disease.

So, when you stop you can still have your health and a better brain. (This is from what I' ve read and I don't have quotes handy.)

[Neeranam]

On 1/17/2021 at 4:50 AM, DDBKK said:

It's interesting isn't it? The semantics. 

 

I find it quite dismissive if I'm honest. It's like you can't take responsibility for your own actions.

 

And where does the line stop (or start as the case may be)? Is someone who enjoys a binge drink in possession of the "disease"? Or do they simply lack self control? What about someone who's wife has died later in life, they've been stone cold sober or very moderate drinker most of their life until the wife passed away and then drank solidly to block out the pain until they too passed? What do we call that? 

 

The variables are vast when it comes to addictive substances I'm sure we can all agree. I've been an addict to a substance and I've abused others and been able to control the intake of them when I put my mind to it.  How does the "disease" gene fit into that picture exactly? 

 

If they have truly identified a <deleted> head gene. How do you even know you have it? And therefore the "disease"? You don't. (Unless you've been tested) You're simply using the excuse that you do have it to pass the buck to protect your ego because you have a weakness. Sorry. But the good news is, we all have weaknesses so don't worry about it. It's part of being human.

next time you have diarrhea, try using your willpower to stop it. This is like using your willpower to stop drinking, if you are an alkie.

[PatOngo]

How do I stop myself from drinking too much?

Stand in front of a mirror and shout 10 times "Wake up  to yourself!"