Trump says he will leave the White House if Electoral College votes for Biden

[Jeffr2]

2 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

So folks who live in the most rural states don't get a say unless they are liberals. USA is 18 times larger than France so not the same. There's a legitimate reason for the electoral syatem in the USA regardless of what others think. 

And many legitimate reasons for it to go away. Again, unless you are a republican.

[Jeffr2]

9 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

So folks who live in the most rural states don't get a say unless they are liberals. USA is 18 times larger than France so not the same. There's a legitimate reason for the electoral syatem in the USA regardless of what others think. 

You need to research this a bit better.

 

Wyoming has three votes and a population of about 580,000, giving its individual voters far more clout in the election than their millions of counterparts in densely populated states like Florida, California and New York. And the American citizens who live in territories like Puerto Rico, Guam and the U.S. Virgin Islands are not represented by any electors.

 

15 states with 196 votes cast theirs for whomever won the national popular vote.

[Phoenix Rising]

11 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

So folks who live in the most rural states don't get a say unless they are liberals. USA is 18 times larger than France so not the same. There's a legitimate reason for the electoral syatem in the USA regardless of what others think. 

I think you mean regardless of the facts.

[simple1]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If the vote went to congress it's not on a party majority vote. It's on a state vote, each state having ONE vote. I believe that enough states would vote for Trump for him to win.

 

A counter argument:

 

https://www.scotusblog.com/2020/11/the-supreme-court-faithless-electors-and-trumps-final-futile-fight/

[heybruce]

2 hours ago, Tounge Thaied said:

Yes.. Pennsylvania is one of the contested states... yes, I saw that Supreme Court ruling... there is 2 weeks to go before the electoral college convenes on December 14th. 

Any legal challenges left with a snowballs chances in... left?

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, EVENKEEL said:

If we were to elect the president with popular votes the large populated areas would run the country. Perhaps non Americans don't understand the diverse landscape of the USA with lightly populated states. The electoral vote is the most fair. 

I agree the landscape in America is diverse, but landscape doesn't vote.  Maybe Republicans think it should.

 

California, an ethnically diverse state of almost 40 million people and an economy with significant sectors in technology, agriculture, energy production, defense, services, tourism, and other areas, is far more diverse than the 15 least populated states, which are largely dependent on agriculture, energy and mining.  California also has more than twice as many people, yet California gets 55 electoral votes and these 15 states get 56.

 

How is this fair?

 

Edit:  It's worth noting that California also has a very diverse landscape.  Shouldn't that be good for a few more electoral college votes?

Edited November 29, 2020 by heybruce

[RJRS1301]

1 hour ago, ExpatOK said:

IMO Trump will not leave. 

On what do you base that assumption?

[Eric Loh]

55 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

So folks who live in the most rural states don't get a say unless they are liberals. USA is 18 times larger than France so not the same. There's a legitimate reason for the electoral syatem in the USA regardless of what others think. 

Electoral system can be subvert by a crooked President like what is happening now. There are more legitimate reasons to get rid of this relic system from the past. 

[Sujo]

Why would the electoral college vote for biden. Trump says he won and there are millions of fraud votes, he has the evidence. So why would he worry.

 

Glad his golf is front and centre instead of that fake virus.

[riclag]

1 hour ago, EVENKEEL said:

So folks who live in the most rural states don't get a say unless they are liberals. USA is 18 times larger than France so not the same. There's a legitimate reason for the electoral syatem in the USA regardless of what others think. 

This is a national security issue imop.Many people from foreign  countries think our laws are archaic  and are held bent on influencing the masses  through propaganda ,by disseminating it   in social media. Many who oppose  insist the constitution should be done away with  especially the way the Presidential election process has been conducted imop!

 

I would like to see social media companies  be more  transparent and state the current laws before they allow opinions to contradict the current laws!

Edited November 29, 2020 by riclag
txt

[Sujo]

1 minute ago, riclag said:

This is a national security issue imop.Many people from foreign  countries think our laws are archaic  and are held bent on influencing the masses  through propaganda ,by disseminating it   in social media. Many who oppose  insist the constitution should be done away with  especially the way the Presidential election process has been conducted imop!

 

I would like to see social media companies  be more  transparent and state the current laws before they allow opinions to contradict the current laws!

You are ok with trumps lies on social media?

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, EVENKEEL said:

If we were to elect the president with popular votes the large populated areas would run the country. Perhaps non Americans don't understand the diverse landscape of the USA with lightly populated states. The electoral vote is the most fair. 

That's what the word democracy means, Greek demos and kratia, meaning rule by the people.

No doubt the current system suits Republicans, that's why they fight so hard to retain it.

If you think other countries do not have diverse landscapes, perhaps you should brush up on your geography. The Australian inland is even more lightly populated than anywhere in America, and we seem to get along OK with our system.

[J Town]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If the vote went to congress it's not on a party majority vote. It's on a state vote, each state having ONE vote. I believe that enough states would vote for Trump for him to win.

I believe the vote already happened, and both the popular vote AND the electoral college put Biden as the next President/

[placeholder]

18 minutes ago, riclag said:

This is a national security issue imop.Many people from foreign  countries think our laws are archaic  and are held bent on influencing the masses  through propaganda ,by disseminating it   in social media. Many who oppose  insist the constitution should be done away with  especially the way the Presidential election process has been conducted imop!

 

I would like to see social media companies  be more  transparent and state the current laws before they allow opinions to contradict the current laws!

In other words, on the one hand you want to defend the constitution, but on the other you want to trash the First Amendment. I get it.

[Lacessit]

35 minutes ago, RJRS1301 said:

On what do you base that assumption?

It the same assumption made by someone who believes the earth is flat. Because they can't see past a horizon.

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, EVENKEEL said:

So folks who live in the most rural states don't get a say unless they are liberals. USA is 18 times larger than France so not the same. There's a legitimate reason for the electoral syatem in the USA regardless of what others think. 

Maybe not so legitimate. The electoral system was set up the way it is because of the slave states. They wanted to be sure that slavery would be protected in the future. But they were more lightly populated than the big northern states. Which is why not only does each state get 2 senators, but slaves were each counted as 3/5ths of a person so as to inflate the electoral votes of said states. This system had nothing to do with justice and everything to do with slavery.

[EVENKEEL]

41 minutes ago, heybruce said:

I agree the landscape in America is diverse, but landscape doesn't vote.  Maybe Republicans think it should.

 

California, an ethnically diverse state of almost 40 million people and an economy with significant sectors in technology, agriculture, energy production, defense, services, tourism, and other areas, is far more diverse than the 15 least populated states, which are largely dependent on agriculture, energy and mining.  California also has more than twice as many people, yet California gets 55 electoral votes and these 15 states get 56.

 

How is this fair?

 

Edit:  It's worth noting that California also has a very diverse landscape.  Shouldn't that be good for a few more electoral college votes?

It's understandable liberals want the popular vote as it would skew the election in their favor. Ca is a lost cause regardless. By landscape you know I was referring to the population of various areas.

 

I grew up in Ca, but more and more it's turning into a place I don't like. Just good that I own acreage in the country waiting for my return.

[J Town]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Would you say that if Biden won that way?

Guess we'll never know.

[RJRS1301]

7 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

It the same assumption made by someone who believes the earth is flat. Because they can't see past a horizon.

Ah thank you ???? 

[J Town]

3 hours ago, Tounge Thaied said:

One delegate from each state legislature gets a vote in the house of representatives. Currently there are 31 republican and 19 democrat legislatures... so if litigation is successful in litigating enough of the swing states to bring down below 270 electoral college votes, then the vote will likely proceed along party lines in the House of Representatives giving Trump the win.

And if they vote in conjunction with the coming astral alignment, along with whether or not a black cat crossed their paths on a day that ended in "Q," then maybe 45 has a chance.

 

My point is it ain't gonna happen.

[EVENKEEL]

13 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

That's what the word democracy means, Greek demos and kratia, meaning rule by the people.

No doubt the current system suits Republicans, that's why they fight so hard to retain it.

If you think other countries do not have diverse landscapes, perhaps you should brush up on your geography. The Australian inland is even more lightly populated than anywhere in America, and we seem to get along OK with our system.

Says you, again it's fascinating that so many non Americans think they know what's good for the USA.

The greatest country in the world.

[Phoenix Rising]

52 minutes ago, riclag said:

This is a national security issue imop.Many people from foreign  countries think our laws are archaic  and are held bent on influencing the masses  through propaganda ,by disseminating it   in social media. Many who oppose  insist the constitution should be done away with  especially the way the Presidential election process has been conducted imop!

 

I would like to see social media companies  be more  transparent and state the current laws before they allow opinions to contradict the current laws!

What are you on about?? Are you saying people shouldn't be allowed to state that they disagree with current laws and practices? 

[Sujo]

36 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

It's understandable liberals want the popular vote as it would skew the election in their favor. Ca is a lost cause regardless. By landscape you know I was referring to the population of various areas.

 

I grew up in Ca, but more and more it's turning into a place I don't like. Just good that I own acreage in the country waiting for my return.

Nice to see you disagree with trump thinks the electoral college system should be ditched.

 

Hows it feel to be a liberal.

[heybruce]

47 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

It's understandable liberals want the popular vote as it would skew the election in their favor. Ca is a lost cause regardless. By landscape you know I was referring to the population of various areas.

 

I grew up in Ca, but more and more it's turning into a place I don't like. Just good that I own acreage in the country waiting for my return.

In summary:  You have no comment on the fact that people in less diverse states have more than twice the influence on selecting a President as those from a diverse state.  It favors your minority views, so in your mind it is a good thing.

 

It's understandable that 'liberals" (slightly less conservative Americans than Republicans by international standards) favor honest democracy over a system that unduly favors the minority.  The present system skews elections in favor of minorities with narrow interests.  The majority of the US population does not benefit from agricultural subsidies for grains, but good luck getting rid of them under our present system.

 

BTW:  California is not a lost cause.  In fact it would fare better as an independent country than the US would without California. 

Edited November 29, 2020 by heybruce

[Walker88]

45's disastrous term has been a dumpster fire in a nuclear exclusion zone. The damage he has wrought, even if reparable, will take years to fix. The economy remains moribund and 265,000 lives have been lost to what 45 claimed until June was a 'Dem Hoax', even though he knew it was a deadly virus. Alliances have been strained and few decent nations can have much more than cautious trust in the US now, because the abomination that was 45 could come again, and even come next time in a competent, less childish and moronic form.

 

His silly inability to face the reality of his electoral shellacking, the greatest loss by a republican incumbent ever, has so far resulted in a legal battle with a dismal record of 1 and 39, an impotent flailing effort that solidifies his legacy as not only a loser, but a crybaby loser. When his "elite strikeforce team" had to conjure as antagonist a foreign leader whose been dead for 7 years, all while the team leader had hair dye and sweat pouring down his cheeks, it just screams 'we're pathetic amateurs, please laugh at us'.

 

The swing States have now accredited Biden's win. PA, MI, AZ, GA and WI are all going to vote as the populace intended and as democracy demands and cast their Electoral College votes for Joe Biden. 45 even spent $3 million of donor money trying to find some votes in WI in a recount. He did find them.....and they increased Biden's margin.

[Jeffr2]

1 hour ago, Eric Loh said:

Electoral system can be subvert by a crooked President like what is happening now. There are more legitimate reasons to get rid of this relic system from the past. 

 

Luckily, that's not possible.  As proven by the many court decisions against Trump and his band of criminals.  Terrible this happened, but it proves the legal system is rock solid.  Even the Republicans turned against Trump on this.

 

1 hour ago, riclag said:

This is a national security issue imop.Many people from foreign  countries think our laws are archaic  and are held bent on influencing the masses  through propaganda ,by disseminating it   in social media. Many who oppose  insist the constitution should be done away with  especially the way the Presidential election process has been conducted imop!

 

I would like to see social media companies  be more  transparent and state the current laws before they allow opinions to contradict the current laws!

 

So says a guy who's clearly been influenced through propaganda! 

 

Lucky for you, even Fox News is turning against Trump and his lies.  Little by little.

 

Social media is not a place for factual information.  The worst place to get your news.

[Sujo]

2 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

Says you, again it's fascinating that so many non Americans think they know what's good for the USA.

The greatest country in the world.

Most americans do, and it isnt what you want.

[melvinmelvin]

4 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Which is why the system is so weird to non-Americans, sensible nations do it that way.

 

the system in the US is different, not particularly weird,

they, USAers, put higher weight on geographic representation/distribution than most countries in Europe do -

 founding fathers slipped  a bit re possible future political diversity and moulded a system that doesn't lend itself to enhancing the political landscape into several parties (candidates)

 

point to watch:

is that as soon as a country takes the very first step away from 1-overall electoral district (ie treating the whole country as the only district and count votes on that basis) you have started on the path to skewed results (that comes with the 2nd district and grows) you have started on the path with votes being thrown  away as soon as the first "seat" is won or "elector" is won.

 

There is a map shown freq. on CNN that shows skewing/priority to geography very clearly:

the normal US map with Alaska and Hawaii cut off and glued back on down Texas way

One of these maps shows ALL US counties (or more correctly counted geographic areas) that are so called red,

ie you easily see red spots within DEM states (there is no blue colour on the map, only red and white)

This map gives a very good view of the imortance of a very broad distribution of the Trump votes, leading to a lost election

and the importance of support in high density built up areas

 

proportional counting / winner take all-electoral college --- not really important - you can screw up your voting system either way

 

look at some UK results, huge bunch of 1 man electoral districts, many weird results up through the years,

similar in other countries in Europe with some kind of proportionate system.

 

one thing though, the US has something that I have never heard of in Europe (maybe in Russia - wouldna knw):

 

electors and electoral college are given in the US, cannot be strayed away from as far as I know,

however, how each state count votes and pick electors is open to fiddling by the state legislative

 

the vast majority of states use winner take all, However, Nebraska and Maine didna opt for that and have developed

an alternative counting scheme,

resulting in that both Trump and Biden can in theory receive "some" votes from Maine

 

ie some of the utmost sharp corners of high priority to geography shaved off

 

[robblok]

3 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

Says you, again it's fascinating that so many non Americans think they know what's good for the USA.

The greatest country in the world.

Its not a matter what is good or bad its what democracy is. Each person gets a vote and each vote counts as much as the other vote. That is democracy. The US is not a true democracy. 

 

Facts are a hard thing from Trump supporters, guess most of them are not liberals. So yes I can see why they would not like a popular vote they would never win again. The last election was not even won by majority. Simply undemocratic. Just that a system is the way it is and was made that way centuries ago does not mean its the most fair.

 

Things move on and better systems are made. Still i get it this will never change as republicans know they cannot get enough popular votes ever. Not enough people to support them. So they they will fight to keep this unfair system. 

 

Had the system based on popular vote things would have been decided a long time ago. I guess the US is a lil like Thailand keeping things shady with wiggle room so they don't have to be really democratic.

[EVENKEEL]

13 minutes ago, robblok said:

Its not a matter what is good or bad its what democracy is. Each person gets a vote and each vote counts as much as the other vote. That is democracy. The US is not a true democracy. 

 

Facts are a hard thing from Trump supporters, guess most of them are not liberals. So yes I can see why they would not like a popular vote they would never win again. The last election was not even won by majority. Simply undemocratic. Just that a system is the way it is and was made that way centuries ago does not mean its the most fair.

 

Things move on and better systems are made. Still i get it this will never change as republicans know they cannot get enough popular votes ever. Not enough people to support them. So they they will fight to keep this unfair system. 

 

Had the system based on popular vote things would have been decided a long time ago. I guess the US is a lil like Thailand keeping things shady with wiggle room so they don't have to be really democratic.

So it would be fair for the large cities and liberal strongholds to rule the country is what you're saying. That's what would happen. I think the system the US has is just fine. But as I've said the rest of the world is jealous of the US and it shows with all the interest foreigners have in our affairs.