Water pump running continually.

[DrJack54]

First up I have had few threads in electrical and DIY and car motors etc and been blown away by the good advice. So thanks to all.

 

So my latest issue is that the pump on roof top of townhouse is running continually.

My understanding is that they top up the tank and then stop. Similar to toilet cistern.

Not trying to do it myself but rather having a heads up re what the electrician might suggest is the problem.

He recently replaced power board and new supply to kitchen. Just thought would mention that.

Any thoughts appreciated.

[CharlieH]

It could be a simple leak in a pipe somewhere causing the pressure to drop and the pump to operate.

Also check cistern float valves for the same reason.

[Crossy]

How is the pump arranged? 

 

Tracing and sketching out the plumbing may help us understand what's going on.

 

If there is a bypass to use city pressure if the power is out then it may be leaking.

 

Is the pump running 100% or running for a short time at intervals?

 

It's also possible that the pump is getting on a bit and can't actually generate enough pressure to operate the pressure switch.

 

[DrJack54]

32 minutes ago, Crossy said:

How is the pump arranged? 

 

Tracing and sketching out the plumbing may help us understand what's going on.

 

If there is a bypass to use city pressure if the power is out then it may be leaking.

 

Is the pump running 100% or running for a short time at intervals?

 

It's also possible that the pump is getting on a bit and can't actually generate enough pressure to operate the pressure switch.

 

Thanks Crossy. Bit foolish of me to post without pics. Will do so tomorrow. There are 5 (yes five on/off valves) nearby to pump.

An update is that my Thai partner just rang plumber or electrician (not sure) who is familiar with the house. Did work for previous owner. Anyway the story goes that he is familiar with pump in that townhouse and states that it's very old and needing replacement. He is coming Tuesday.

Actually I hope it is just the pump. Better than a leak somewhere.

I just find it strange that if the pump is stuffed why it's able to run.

Another thing is that I have couple of times closed all stop valves and subsequently opened them all. Perhaps not all should be open.

Guess find out Tuesday.

Thanks for your help.

[Surelynot]

11 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

it's very old and needing replacement.

It won't be running continuously just because it is old........IMO......sounds like he is creating work for himself and expense for you.

[NanLaew]

9 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Thanks Crossy. Bit foolish of me to post without pics. Will do so tomorrow. There are 5 (yes five on/off valves) nearby to pump.

An update is that my Thai partner just rang plumber or electrician (not sure) who is familiar with the house. Did work for previous owner. Anyway the story goes that he is familiar with pump in that townhouse and states that it's very old and needing replacement. He is coming Tuesday.

Actually I hope it is just the pump. Better than a leak somewhere.

I just find it strange that if the pump is stuffed why it's able to run.

Another thing is that I have couple of times closed all stop valves and subsequently opened them all. Perhaps not all should be open.

Guess find out Tuesday.

Thanks for your help.

 

Ah yes, the "old pump needs replacing" game. A quick and effective (but expensive) fix. If the pump is a name brand like Hitachi or Mitsubishi, chances are it needs some seals, o-rings and gaskets renewing. If it has a pressurizing tank, then that could have pin-hole leak either in the tank or the rubber diaphragm in the sensor. The pressure switch could also have sticky or dirty contacts. I replaced our 13 year-old pump after the tank rotted out and for expediency, replaced it with the same model but slightly larger pump. Then I bought a replacement tank for the old one on lazada and a new set of o-rings and gaskets from the local water pump shop. That is now a good, tested spare and is doing duty on the well feeding Yai's winter time veggie allotment.

 

Brother in law built a new home and dropped off his old Mitsu pump that hadn't been drained when he stopped using it several years ago and was seized solid. I pulled it apart, cleaned the crud out of the impeller and housing, fitted new o-rings and shaft seals and it's now keeping his new home supplied.

 

So if indeed it is the pump, see if the guy who's replacing it will repair service your old one to keep as a spare rather than giving him something that's ultimately still usable for free?

 

If the pump is a Chinese no-name clone of a brand-name pump, don't bother.

[VocalNeal]

The pump on the rooftop is running continuously? This is the pump that feeds the house with another that feeds the rooftop tank? 

There is a leak somewhere. Toilet tank ball valve or the like. 

 

[DrJack54]

5 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Ah yes, the "old pump needs replacing" game. A quick and effective (but expensive) fix

Thinking your on the money, however my style is to replace with new rather than repair for most things. I agree that's probably stupid however the plan is for this joint to re rental and prefer no ongoing issues.

 

[DrJack54]

4 minutes ago, VocalNeal said:

The pump on the rooftop is running continuously? This is the pump that feeds the house with another that feeds the rooftop tank? 

There is a leak somewhere. Toilet tank ball valve or the like. 

 

Thanks Neal. I'm going back tomorrow and will check all the cisterns etc.

[ICELANDMAN]

It happened to me too, they changed the pump and then also redone the entire external system, the leak was on the external ground impossible to find where,

Their Thai system of plastic pipes with glue is really a s......, after a few years with the pressure comes off.

Edited February 6, 2021 by ICELANDMAN

[DrJack54]

34 minutes ago, ICELANDMAN said:

It happened to me too, they changed the pump and then also redone the entire external system, the leak was on the external ground impossible to find where,

Their Thai system of plastic pipes with glue is really a s......, after a few years with the pressure comes off.

Actually you have given me an idea. Prior to buying the townhouse I recall opening tap in front and had supply. After purchase there was zero flow from that tap. Perhaps the previous owner closed valve that supplies those taps due to leak in that area. 

Subsequently I had reason to close all valves near the pump (5 in fact) I vaguely recall that one was already shut. Then I opened all. I may have same problem as you did.

[ProbPossConf]

Check the ball float and related shut off hinge in the rooftop tank.

[bankruatsteve]

12 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

Another thing is that I have couple of times closed all stop valves and subsequently opened them all. Perhaps not all should be open.

Highly likely not all should be open.  Suggest closing one at a time until pump stops.   Then open the ones that had no affect.  Try to identify valve to the storage tank input.  If that is open the pump is likely cycling from tank output to tank input.

[sometimewoodworker]

12 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

Another thing is that I have couple of times closed all stop valves and subsequently opened them all. Perhaps not all should be open.

That could be the problem. It is not uncommon for the design to have one, or possibly 2, valves that are usually off. So your pump could be, probably is, pumping water around in a loop.

 

step 1 go and look at your water meter while the pump is continuing running and have all outlets closed.. If there is no movement to the reading, Then turn on a tap and make sure there is a slight change in numbers to confirm. Then a rearrangement of the words “fudged you up” is the answer. ???? So finding out which valves should on and which should be off will cure the problem.

But it could be that a switch in the pump has failed and “fudged you up” does not apply. ???? 

Edited February 7, 2021 by sometimewoodworker

[farmerjo]

I have a small Hitachi that started running all the time.

When i inspected it the check valve had no spring,gone.(corrosion i think)

Made a spring and good as gold.

 

[DrJack54]

3 hours ago, bankruatsteve said:

Highly likely not all should be open.  Suggest closing one at a time until pump stops.   Then open the ones that had no affect.  Try to identify valve to the storage tank input.  If that is open the pump is likely cycling from tank output to tank input.

As dumb as I am, that's exactly what I planned to do with a slight variation. As I mentioned earlier. When I first go the keys I noticed front garden taps not working. The plan this morning is to turn the pump electric supply back on and shut/open the valves to find out if one is solely supplying those 2 taps. Doubt it.

Also @sometimewoodworker thinking your suggestion with the water meter great idea. Had note remotely thought of that. Also the other ideas re values etc.

 

 

[DrJack54]

So here is a pic of the beast. Seems when I turned off one valve (shown in pic) the pump stopped.

[sometimewoodworker]

33 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

So here is a pic of the beast. Seems when I turned off one valve (shown in pic) the pump stopped.

That makes sense, but you may have exactly the same effect with that one on and the one on the horizontal pipe off unless it is feeding the inlet of the pump.

 

FWIW  all red dots is a poor idea if your valves have different colours it’s easier to write about them.

 

it’s probably that (numbering from the top)

1 is from the tank (or mains illegal, but  TIT)

2 is to the pump

3 is the bypass 

4 is to the house 

 

so normal is 1,2,4 on 3 off

power failure (or pump failure) all on

 

pump servicing 1 & 3 on 2 & 4 off

 

constant pump running is a loop 4, 3, 2.

Edited February 7, 2021 by sometimewoodworker

[DrJack54]

17 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

That makes sense, but you may have exactly the same effect with that one on and the one on the horizontal pipe off unless it is feeding the inlet of the pump.

 

FWIW  all red dots is a poor idea if your valves have different colours it’s easier to write about them.

 

it’s probably that (numbering from the top)

1 is from the tank (or mains illegal, but  TIT)

2 is to the pump

3 is the bypass 

4 is to the house 

 

so normal is 1,2,4 on 3 off

power failure (or pump failure) all on

 

pump servicing 1 & 3 on 2 & 4 off

 

constant pump running is a loop 4, 3, 2.

Thanks for that. I will try you combinations.

This useful help from yourself and others will help me understand what the 'water guy's has to say on Tuesday. According to previous owner that guy knows the issue and has indicated pump. As usual I get all this through the gf and a lot gets lost in translation.

Here is pic without dots however all valves painted.

[sometimewoodworker]

Your problem seems to be fixed already?

[Cake Monster]

19 hours ago, Surelynot said:

It won't be running continuously just because it is old........IMO......sounds like he is creating work for himself and expense for you.

The Thai way is to say these things.

Its easier to just replace anything at great cost to you, than to use any Grey Matter that may be present to actually diagnose and fix the issue.

[DrJack54]

19 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Your problem seems to be fixed already?

First up I have read your contributions in the DYI forums and your certainly a great help to many. Several other guys in the electric and other forums in similar way have helped many. Keep up the good work.

 

Back to my story..... Our electrician just left. Here on unrelated matter. He also was very clear in his prognosis that it was pump issue. He has been excellent in the work he has done so far. Close friend of my Thai partner family. (most likely means nothing). He recommends Mitsubishi pump. Replacement next Tues. Frankly if it fixes issue I will be happy. 

Ta for you advice. Appreciated.

 

[timendres]

One other point to consider. A pump at my previous townhouse kept running often. Then continuously. Turns out there was a very small tank with a bladder attached to the pump. That bladder was filled with air, so it became ineffective. The house manager somehow bled the air out of that bladder, and it went back to operating normally.

[bankruatsteve]

49 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

He recommends Mitsubishi pump. Replacement next Tues. Frankly if it fixes issue I will be happy. 

If you are set on getting a new pump, there you go.  I thought your issue was pump running non-stop and that closing the bypass valve solved that issue.  If the pump delivers water when you open a faucet and stops when you close the faucet then the pump is working just fine.  BTW: what fills your storage tank?  Mains or a different pump?

[Crossy]

49 minutes ago, timendres said:

One other point to consider. A pump at my previous townhouse kept running often. Then continuously. Turns out there was a very small tank with a bladder attached to the pump. That bladder was filled with air, so it became ineffective. The house manager somehow bled the air out of that bladder, and it went back to operating normally.

 

It's actually the other way round, the bladder/tank contains air when operating correctly, when it gets full of water you get short-cycling (rapid on-off switching).

[PJHassselt]

2 hours ago, timendres said:

One other point to consider. A pump at my previous townhouse kept running often. Then continuously. Turns out there was a very small tank with a bladder attached to the pump. That bladder was filled with air, so it became ineffective. The house manager somehow bled the air out of that bladder, and it went back to operating normally.

There should be are in the bladder tank. Replacing the air for water will make the pump running very short cycles. 

 

I placed a big PVC tube, 10" in my water system as big "bladder" tank. When I close the valve to this tank, my pump is cycling about one time a minute with one tap full open. When the valve to this tank is open, cycling is reduced to 4 minutes.

 

My only problem is that my own made tank does not have a bladder, so air is solved quite fast in the water. WHen air is reduced in my tank, I notice this because my pump start to cycle much more. 

 

My conclusion, a bladder tank should have air, and not water.....

 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

3 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

Back to my story..... Our electrician just left. Here on unrelated matter. He also was very clear in his prognosis that it was pump issue. He has been excellent in the work he has done so far. Close friend of my Thai partner family. (most likely means nothing). He recommends Mitsubishi pump. Replacement next Tues. Frankly if it fixes issue I will be happy. 

Ta for you advice. Appreciated.

Thanks for the support.

 

Don’t forget the point that if most technicians are presented with a “problem” there is a confirmation bias to diagnose a problem and fix. Specially if the “fix” will cure the “problem” that may well not exist, there is no downside to recommending a pump replacement (he isn’t paying), and almost no upside to saying the pump is OK as while the pump maybe/is probably good today if it fails in the next few weeks/months it will be the tech who is at fault (he isn’t, it would be coincidence, but will be thought to be)

 

I am not saying that your pump is good, but so far there is little to say that it is bad, if you have a different location to use a pump then buying a new one and replacing this one is a sensible option. 
 

pumps often last for a couple of decades  before repairing becomes uneconomic.

[timendres]

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

 

It's actually the other way round, the bladder/tank contains air when operating correctly, when it gets full of water you get short-cycling (rapid on-off switching).

 

Right. I got it backwards. Thank you for correcting that.

[NanLaew]

On 2/7/2021 at 8:19 AM, farmerjo said:

I have a small Hitachi that started running all the time.

When i inspected it the check valve had no spring,gone.(corrosion i think)

Made a spring and good as gold.

 

In my experience, these springs never corrode but they do tend to fly out if someone opens the check valve stopper without bleeding the pressure off first. We call these small projectiles, 'Jesus parts' as in, "Jesus! Where did that go?!"

 

Also, my brother-in-law reckoned his pump ran better without the return spring and removed it. He was wrong. It simply made the pump "run better" despite his system still having another problem (his removing the tamper-proof screws and adjusting the non-adjustable pressure switch).

[NanLaew]

20 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

First up I have read your contributions in the DYI forums and your certainly a great help to many. Several other guys in the electric and other forums in similar way have helped many. Keep up the good work.

 

Back to my story..... Our electrician just left. Here on unrelated matter. He also was very clear in his prognosis that it was pump issue. He has been excellent in the work he has done so far. Close friend of my Thai partner family. (most likely means nothing). He recommends Mitsubishi pump. Replacement next Tues. Frankly if it fixes issue I will be happy. 

Ta for you advice. Appreciated.

 

 

That looks like an older Hitachi EX pump that maybe has already had the original pressure tank replaced by a stainless steel one? I agree that the quick fix is a new pump and Mitsubishi are my go-to water pumps but I consider that the original pump simply needs an overhaul. Replacing the o-rings, gaskets, seals and gaskets is maybe a 2-hour job tops. If the guy won't refurbish it, I recommend the OP keep it and have someone who has the capabilities do it. It's handy to have a hot-swappable spare, especially in a rental property.

 

No real artisans any more.

 

PS: If it's NOT a Hitachi and only a cheaper Chinese clone, then don't bother getting it refurbished.

Edited February 8, 2021 by NanLaew